EK Cabin Crew Resignations.

[Kamelchaser]

Just under 150 cabin crew leaving in January. That's approximately 18% PA attrition rate, far higher than the company is used to.

There is now a shortage in every grade. Courses to cover just the attrition (let alone the expansion) are due to start early Feb, but the approval to send the contracts to these ppl has not yet been received..supposedly "in the pipeline" but somehow our senior managers seem to think you can recruit new crew with only a couple of weeks notice; it ain't gonna happen!

So the spiral continues; more work, not enough crew...fatiqued crew, more resignations.

Why are they leaving in the first place?...when you work ppl this hard, issue warning letters for calling sick too often (no such thing as fatique for CC), sneak in illegal patterns because junior crew are too naive or scared to challenge them, and treat 30 year olds like school children, no wonder they are leaving in droves.

Yes, we pilots have our own complaints, but remember the poor cabin crew are having the same if not worse issues, and they don't have the ability to tell the roster clerks that they are simply too tired to go to work.

[ab33t]

Hope they are going to get paid overtime .

[mensaboy]

We can't fight the battle for cabin crew but we should be sympathetic towards their plight.

Granted some of them are the dimmest bulbs in the package but others are quite fascinating people and for the most part we have one of the best cabin crew teams at any airline in the world. I am always amazed at how well they deal with our passengers who are quite often the bottom of the barrel when it comes to common decency or understanding of flight operations.

So if you think that perhaps our crew are not always up to the task when it comes to flight safety, then consider the fact that they are now as tired, or mored tired than us pilots.

As recent as a year ago, the average number of ASR's relating to a CC onboard injury or sickness , was 2 to 3 each week. In the past year, that number has increased to 7 to 8 per week. There is a direct correlation between fatigue and sickness and injury on the job...... something which is either oblivious to our bosses, or they simply don't care.

[Marooned]

Granted some of them are the dimmest bulbs in the package and those tend to stay... those with the get up and go...go.

The way they are being treated who can blame anyone for wanting to get out. The very best of luck to them.

[SOPS]

this is going to become interesting..we are already running at minimum (i think)

[Phantom Driver]

As a matter of curiosity, I wonder where all these folks are going in these "allegedly" hard times? Would suspect there is quite a long queue waiting to fill their shoes, and maybe the guys in the office know this, and retraining costs be damned. New blood always cheaper, and more malleable?

[mensaboy]

Yeah I agree with you Phantom. This company always takes the most cost effective approach when it comes to human beings. They simply don't understand or even want to try to understand human nature.

I am not so concerned about 'where' the CC come from, but rather their quality. Let's face facts, a competent company could train almost any person to be a good CC (based on hiring criteria of course).

The problem with CC at Emirates, is not where they come from but rather the training they undergo. With all due respect to the few individuals in EK flight ops who recognize there is a serious problem in training of CC, there still exists a Lebanese Mafia, who don't think flight safety is their ultimate goal and they do their best to discourage interaction between pilots and CC.

Take a serious look at the trainers for CC and it is blatantly obvious they have their own self-interests in mind and they care as little about flight safety as OUR bosses do.

I might add, that if we pilots were 25 years old and were indoctrinated by the morons at EGHQ working as cabin crew trainers, we all would believe that crap too.

I think it is wise to behave properly as a Captain and instill confidence and mutual respect with the crew. It is not rocket science..... treat people properly and things usually work out... although this is contrary to EK policy.

Our CC have a tough job. As THEIR boss, I feel it is my responsibility to support them and that is part of my pre-departure brief. Then again, I also make it clear when someone behaves poorly, they ultimately have to answer to me.... and not just the Purser.

I believe it is in OUR best interests to support our cabin crew because utimately it helps flight safety. Other than that, I don't give a rats ass to be honest.

ps. eagerly awaiting WhiteKnights nonsensical response, haha.

[chiquidejesus]

i got a 110hours on december. Rostered a Bom late Nov and again for Dec but called sick since i was too tired doing 5 t/o in a row. Rostered again for 2 Bom in Jan and i cant swap them, surpirse surprise... it was my first sick for Bom flight and 2nd for a for a t/o for 2009. :ugh:

[777boyindubai]

It is extremely sad to see the massive negativity in all grades within the company. The company does not care. Period. EK used to offer a great quality product. It is deteriorating by the day. The company believe that "bums on seats" is the way forward for staff. Why pay for experienced staff when you can bring new blood cheaper and indoctrinate them at the same time? The best thing about EK is the staff. I have met some fantastic people here; kind hearted and hard working. They make the company. Not the planes.
TC and Co. need to go and see what is going on at EY and QR. Great people and service (many ex EK!!)
It reminds me of Mercedes cars after 1996 when they lost their way and produced inferior cars that rusted and broke down frequently. When the warranty claims became astronomical, in the $100's of millions, Benz brought back the quality people and it cost them dearly. That was 2002. Now the C class is the most reliable car in its class.
Please do not try to reinvent the wheel, EK. :ugh:
Honour your contracts, retain and reward good staff, fix the lousy food (with good quality people) and stop interfering with motivated and intelligent people who know how to do their jobs and who care!
Very Simple.
Will EK listen?
Inshallah:{

[White Knight]

Actually Mensa I agree in the main with what you say here - typically long winded as usual though.................. But would you really feel the need to be indoctrinated by an ek moron if you were only 25? I submit to you that we're hopefully not quite as dim or gullible as the 'lightbulbs' in the back:rolleyes: Just using your words before you accuse me of not standing 'shoulder to shoulder' with the colleagues and all that!!!!!

[rascott3888]

My better half has been EK cabin crew for over 3 years. My comments are both as a concerned partner and passenger.

1. Monthly flying hours are now 100. Used to be 80.
2. Because of extra flying hours crew are flying on minimal rest. Not unusual to return for the overnight each way to/from Asia and then fly again the following day.
3. The flights deck are not in charge of the CC. Sadly. The captain may brief the crew and say they are welcome to rest in the cockpit if tired. But after the flight deck crew leave - the purser will simply say that there are to be no visits to the cockpit for rest. Purser sets tone for the CC. Not the flight deck.
4. The purser/sfs writes the appraisals. These are the people that rule the lives of the CC.
5. Long haul back from PEk for instance. Light load. No curtained rest area. Crew allowed to sit in seats at rear. But they cannot sleep or read and they cannot use headphones. Bizarre. A short sleep must help.
6. No reading in the galleys. No books or newspapers. Pax sleeping. Boredom and fatigue set it.
7. Crew are scared to call in sick. Points system used to record sick days taken.
8. I have seen crew falling asleep during descent strapped into their jump seats. Will they be alert in the event of a problem?
9. The passenger is always right appears to be the purser mantra. Except in extreme cases. I do not see or hear much support for CC who are in many cases dealing with some of the most demanding and unpleasant pax.

And the trouble is that for every CC who leaves because they are burned out - there are another 20 lined up around the world ready to come to Dubai.

Bests.

[PorkKnuckle]

there are another 20 lined up around the world ready to come to Dubai.


I've now heard from several crew that the latest two intakes of CC are all third world - ie no usual mix of westerners - so that the entire crew can be put on a new contract with - you guessed it - a lower salary.

"You want to be a glamourous EK CC? Here's the new pay deal. Take it or leave it." So they take it because it's better than whatever they had back in India or Philipines wherever.

According to this rumour, the CC now have a 'B' scale. Other intakes will move back forth between the usual demographic mix/old contracts and this new arrangement.

So discriminatory, it's hard to believe - or is it???

As THEIR boss, I feel it is my responsibility to support them and that is part of my pre-departure brief. Then again, I also make it clear when someone behaves poorly, they ultimately have to answer to me.... and not just the Purser.

I believe it is in OUR best interests to support our cabin crew because utimately it helps flight safety.

I hear you friend, HOWEVER..... all that talk just goes in one of their ears and out the other. You can be as warm & fuzzy and "I'm supportive" and Capt Wonderful as you like to them and it will still be the purser who determines how good a time everyone's going to have or whether they will bond.

They don't see you as the boss. Some of them don't even think the FO can fly! Take a look around in the hotel lobby next time you're at work. When someone tells everyone to get on the bus, who do they listen to, you or the purser? :eek: Man, they don't even know what you're talking about when you mention behaviour because it's never THEM who behave badly!

Just enjoy yourself and leave them to it; you can still have a glass of chardonnay with the broader-minded amongst them. And if someone you're not likely to ever see again misbehaves, why do you care to get involved? Let the purser deal with it and have a half-hour de-brief while you're in the Audi reading last week's 7Days on the way back to your bed in DSO.

Just give them the flight time and head to our salubrious Captains' Lounge for a relaxing, pre-flight back-rub and a complimentary cappucino and everyone's happy.

But with those pursers who roll their eyes when you walk in, just stand there and keep on talking and talking and talking.... :p

At the end of the day, whether they're safe or not will come from inside them. Do they have the brainpower to understand the situation and follow their training or not is not decided by anything said to them by you or the purser.

If you want cabin service, hire malleable, subservient third world females.

If you want cabin safety, hire some HAGGARD, OLD, WESTERN BOILERS and POOFTERS.

[chiquidejesus]

If you want cabin service, hire malleable, subservient third world females.

If you want cabin safety, hire some HAGGARD, OLD, WESTERN BOILERS and POOFTERS.

this is very discriminatory. your point is taken without these statement.

[cerbus]

Why do you say if you want service hire the 3rd world? EK has hired pretty much nothing but 3rd world stews (the west has left) and the service has gone in the toilet.
When I arrived there was a nice mix of west and 3rd world hostess' and Emirates was ranked somewhere in the top 5 of the world. Now with nothing but the 3rd world Ek is not even ranked in the top 25 of world airlines.
When you talk to the stews you get the ipmpression they are tired and scared of the company but will do anything not to get fired. After all they make more in a month at EK than they would make in a year back in their cestpool.

[stylo4444]

3rd world stews? I disagree with this. Flew 4 sectors back the second half of December and it was a nice mix of east/west. I was impressed, and I agree with mensaboy...the CC are fantastic and put up with some pathetic treatment from passengers.

[chiquidejesus]

a lot of my crew friends from australia and UK are still with the company because they still make more money with flying. Yes they might be paid more if they work in their 1st world country but with taxes, rent, utilities, and etc, they are left with so much less than what they make as cabin crew.

the issue with the crew resignations is not about the money. it is because of Dxb, the flying, the customers and what not. CC are very demoralized. SO saying that Ek hires more from the third world to save money is nonsense when everybody has the same basic and flying pay depending on your length of stay with the company and grade irregardless of where you are from.

[GoreTex]

its not nonsense, most of the western CC wouldn't fly for that money, thats all

[Plank Cap]

The attached You Tube clip might well explain some of the Cabin Crew issues:

YouTube - Arabic speaker on a middle eastern airline (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDtSnETPVDM)

[mensaboy]

So now WK is threatening PK to meet him 'face to face'. Does anyone supports this man's POV? Oh yes, perhaps 5% of our pilot population will do so, haha.

WK has never properly refuted ONE single thing that I have posted, except regurgitating our management positions. WK is the epitome of what is wrong with this profession.

Lately, he expressed that pilots who have had their rosters changed too frequently, ' have pissed off the rostering department'. This statement by WhightKnight, should adequately explain his perspective. Roster changes should never be due to a pilot standing up for his 'RIGHTS' my dear friend WK. Roster changes at EK are due to improper and insane rostering practices. Simple as that. But then again, no doubt you do flights that are illegal and have not yet suffered the consequences.

You have slagged us pilots in general for complaining about the insanity of this place, you have targeted the MEL crew (yet pretend to be the Captains mate), and you have at ever opportunity criticized pilots who state the obvious about this company.

I have no heartache with the likes of............ (forgot his name now, sorry) expressing a differing POV than mine. At least he explained himself, but WhiteKnight hides behind a barrier of '' let's all pull together'', because rostering is not screwing ME around.

WK is a privileged UK brat, who wants to believe he is furthering his families destiny as an expat. The man exemplifies exactly what is wrong in some aspects of western culture. Granted, if WK grew up in Zimbabwe, he would be the first man to stand up and support Muggabe.

I actually have started to understand you WK. You grew up in a certain manner so naturally you think a certain way.

You have never ever, made one post that refutes my stand, in an intelligent manner. You revert to propaganda, taking personal shots, or you stand quietly on the sidelines regarding issues that are irrefutable.

I have to admit, you are quite interesting to say the least. A man who believes he is intelligent and wise, who is neither. So goes the world I guess. Makes me laugh sometimes.

[White Knight]

Mensa - you are probably the most arrogant person that posts in these forums.. What is it for you? Four years here and you think you're the 'champion of the EK pilots cause'. The news for you is that you can moan and moan about a lot of things and IT WON"T CHANGE ANYTHING - so like I said, get over it.

Twice now you've said that I 'denigrate the profession' - I may think you're an idiot MB but I have never slandered your professional ability. You can talk about my profession AFTER you have flown with me:=:=

I say you're arrogant because you really can't stand the fact that I disagree with your POV so vehemently - and that only 5% may agree with me.. Maybe so but do you see all 2200 EK pilots posting in this forum? No? It's the usual whingers and moaners for the most part:E So another incorrect comment from you!!

As for the 'roster changes' issue - I fail to see what the issue is for most people as they are generally minimal.. If you think a roster change is wrong then get hold of the people you think are responsible.. Why come and flap about it on pprune:ugh: And you're right MB - I COULD NOT CARE LESS about your roster and it's changes so get over the fact that I will not be shedding tears for you if you get a change.

You keep bringing up this MEL accident - I never said I was the captain's mate. I did say I talked with him about it very shortly after it happened. Try reading WHAT I write rather than what you THINK I write:ugh: Are you in denial that a 345 was nearly LOST due to poor performance in the flightdeck:=

Then you make a statement that I'm a 'privileged UK brat' - not sure how you can say this when you don't know me but this is another part of your hypocrisy. At least I say what I think, and DO what I say.. You however waffle incoherently and wow - nothing changes in EK flight ops.. You still wanting to kill Ed and his family? Tried to brush that little nastiness of yours under the carpet didn't you MB by deleting your thread - don't worry though, quite a few guys saw it:ok: And you say that I take personal shots - you really are the proverbial pot.........................

As for Zimbabwe - do you even know where it is:rolleyes::rolleyes:?

I'll put you down as 'neither' too:rolleyes:

[Desert Dawg]

@ WK and MB,

As an outsider looking in, I'd like to air my POV (if you'll all indulge me a minute?)...

It is very disheartening to watch two professional pilots slag each other off in a public forum. It does nothing to strengthen the faith that professional pilots are supposed to imbue upon us passengers.

WK, you said "....but do you see all 2200 EK pilots posting in this forum? No? It's the usual whingers and moaners for the most part."

I am afraid your statement WK, appears to have labelled both MB and yourself in the same category.

[White Knight]

Hi DD - thanks for your POV.. However I'm having my professionalism 'slagged off' because I dare disagree with these whingers and moaners.. If you read my posts going back a while I'm looking at Dubai on the bright side - I enjoy it here and I ain't moaning and whinging:cool:

Sure, things are wrong at EK in many respects but my point is that crying about it here will make not one jot of difference.. So no - I wouldn't put myself in the same category as MB..

[sheikhmahandy]

I think the phrase should be divided we stand.:ugh:

If we continue down this path then it is not us who win eh?:mad:

Common cause and all that.

:=

[mensaboy]

Apologies in advance for hopefully my last rebuttal to WK.

First off I have not been here for about 4 years, not sure where you got that info. Secondly, no person on this planet has accused me of being arrogant, other than you WK, which is quite amusing to me. And do you honestly believe my intention is to 'change' things at EK by posting on Pprune. I have 2 purposes in posting truths about EK.

1- It is a method to vent steam and no one has to read what I post if they choose not to

2- It is a method whereby potential new-joiners can gather information about EK and make their own decisions. I have a feeling this is what bothers you so much, my posts denigrate what you consider a milestone in your career.

I have never said you were a bad pilot, which obviously I cannot judge simply because our views differ so greatly. You could be the best damn pilot on the planet but it still does not change the fact that you are quick to criticize pilots who err, quick to offer up the company propaganda regarding any issue and quick to take such great offense towards individuals who speak the truth if it somehow challenges your view of your job.

No kidding, the 5% estimate of pilots who agree with you was just me 'taking a shot' at you. Glad it worked. Then again, it is probably a good guess, haha. Another joke by the way, if that eluded you.

Then you go on and on about roster changes and finally state that you couldn't care less. I think this adequately demonstrates your thinking. As long as things are good for YOU, whatever happens to other pilots is not your concern. At least you have backed down on your premise that ''I'' or any other pilot, is the cause of insane rosters changes. You honestly don't care if other pilots are getting screwed around by our inept and out of control rostering department?

As for the A345 accident, you have twisted things around. I am not in denial about what happened because I have actually considered that what 'The Company' says, might not be the exact truth. Yes, definitely the pilots messed-up. But good pilots don't mess-up without a reason. You assume it was not following SOP's based on your alleged conversation with the Capt, and what you have been told by the company. First off, I find it hard to believe that 'said Capt' confessed to you that he did not follow SOP's especially considering you admit he is not a friend of yours.
Not that I am looking forward to another diatribe from you, but you still haven't responded to the fact that TCAS et al, decreed that Fatigue was not a factor, long before the initial report came out and even after the report came out, there was no mention of 'not following' SOP's. Please enlighten us, from where does your information come? Once again, you may be correct in your assumption, but isn't it odd that a fellow pilot assumes the worst of his colleague before the final report (let alone the initial report) has been published? I think YOU are in denial about what might be the causal factors behind such a terrible accident.

Then you go on to state that ''you say what you think and do what you say'', while accusing me of the opposite. Doesn't this contradict you assertion that I say TOO MUCH of what I think? I certainly do what I say, which is evidenced by my ASR's regarding Fatigue and also not accepting everything Rostering tries to shove down my throat. I suspect, with only the evidence of your 'company man' attitude that you do not cause waves because it might in fact jeopardize your exultant position as the most fortunate EK pilot in history.

I don't normally take personal shots even when I completely disagree with someone and I think they are an idiot. (not suggesting you are an idiot). Yeah I have made a couple snide remarks to you, but nothing compared to your posts. It is laughable that YOU accuse me of that technique.

Regarding the disgust of our colleagues regarding our written battle here on Pprune, I am guilty of that charge.

So in a nutshell WK. I concede you might be a decent person and you seem of average intelligence (hell you might even be a brainiac for all I know). But what annoys me is that you tend towards supporting the 'company' POV while tending to express counter-arguments to positions contrary to the company position. Stop pretending that you are simply frustrated because posting on Pprune will have no affect on the company. EVERY SINGLE pilot at EK, should know that fact.

I openly admit that you might NOT be one of the minority of ass-kissing pilots in our profession. In fact, it is quite possible you are a helluva guy, both inside and out of the cockpit.

I really must resist the temptation to mention GWB in some posts. The 'evil' part of me just wants to stir things up, but the end result is that it diminishes what I am trying to express. One lesson learned from our battle, haha.

Honestly, I hope your position at EK reaps rewards. That sentence is written in all sincerity. It might seem strange to you, but I truly feel compassion towards my fellow pilots and the decline of this profession. I might completely disagree with you on many issues and my gut instinct is to try to highlite what I think are your natural and negative personality traits (obviously not justifiable simply based on postings on an anonymous forum) I apologize for that, because it is neither fair nor defensibly by any measure. Yeah, you got my goat, congrats!

I hereby offer an olive branch. I give up trying to change your POV and I will do my best to 'tone' things down in the future. I do not enjoy this battle and I often feel somewhat bad about things I have posted, even though they are truthful about EK. I should be better able to take the high-road, but I have to admit to being somewhat 'testy' about certain issues at EK.

PS. I realize it is unfair to expect that someone, having read my lengthy post, should not be expected to respond accordingly. Feel free to slag me and counter my position if you desire, then we can call it quits, if you agree.

[Desert Dawg]

@ MB

A damn fine response Sir..! I doff my cap to your attitude....:ok:

[Kamelchaser]

As predicted in the original post of this thread, the first two cabin crew courses of Feb have been cancelled, no doubt because the contracts weren't sent out early enough to allow new joiners to get here on time.

I suspect senior management at EK still believe that people around the world are prepared to drop everything at a few days notice and fly here to begin their 3 year shafting.

It would seem that crisis mangement has taken on a new meaning across the company, with the latest Airbus to Boeing transition course being announced with 24 hours notice. You'd kinda think an airline of our size would be able to do just a little better?

[Capt Groper]

Sounds like similar happenings in EK that happened to GF 10 yrs ago.

[ekpilot]

I Came across a CC that was at 160 hours block in Jan ... Incredible!

Keep Recovering:ok: