Drop out of A levels - start working at PPL?

[MikadoTrident]

I'm really considering dropping out of 6th form to carry on at the PPL having more frequent lessons with a part time job. I'm really not enjoying college and am struggling with my subjects and it's too late to change. There's a big chance that i'm going to fail my modules next week and this would result in me being thrown out. If that's the case should i just "start young" (17) and find a good part-time job to fund for my training. (i'm doing modular btw).

Are A levels really important for being an airline pilot?

(sorry if i sound naive i just need help).

Thanks.

[student88]

You'll get a lot of people on here telling you that it'd be a wise idea to get your A Levels under your belt because it makes for better competition on the CV pile. Well, the CV pile is out the window at the moment as there are big boys on it with thousands and thousands of hours of heavy jet experience.

I can sympathise with you - I hated college and didn't want to be there. I am useless at studying for something when I have no interest in doing it. I'm not going to patronise you, but I'm sure you're aware that this is possibly the worse time for wannabe pilots.

It's a decision only you can make. You're obviously young so you're in no rush to get committed to a training programme - although you've already made a good choice as you've indicated you're going to pursue the modular route!

What A Levels are you doing? What sort of job is it you have?

[Grass strip basher]

Key question is where are you going to get the money from to train?
Only quit your A-levels if you have a trade to go to to generate cash.... e.g. plumber, electrician, armed services etc etc.
Personally if I were recruiting and had a pile of CVs yes the fact that you didn't complete you A-levels would mean that your application would be filed in the round filing cabinet next to the desk.... why would an airline hire you rather than someone with the same little blue book but a better track record at sticking with things and an ability to learn?.... but hey thats just my opinion... many on hear will say it doesn't matter. :ugh:

[student88]

Let's put it this way - you won't go through your career as a pilot never getting a job because you don't have A Levels. A Levels or not, you'll probably end up applying for lots and lots of positions before you get big break. A Levels don't show anything about your flying ability or what you're like to work with.

Unfortunately the recruiters don't know that.

GSB speaks wise words. You'll be taking a big gamble.

[student88]

Don't get me wrong Callum, I totally agree with you; but it's important to establish what sort of employment he'd be leaving college for. As GSB says, some jobs justify the move more than others.

[Aerouk]

What type of job are you expecting to get without any A-Levels? A number of my fellow University graduates are getting sweet :mad: all, not even basic jobs.

Even becoming a plumber, joiner etc. requires you to do a college course.

Will A-levels make you a better pilot? Hell no, I'm sure there are a number of pilots out there with no qualifications at all. The problem is that there are very few jobs these days that require little to no qualifications. Most people have at least a couple of A-Levels these days so you're going to end up putting yourself to a disadvantage.

Work hard and you won't fail, sit and moan about failing and you will fail.

I worked two jobs (one of which was voluntary) while studying my degree and got my PPL completed, so it is possible.

[Whirlygig]

I decided to study apllied science and geography, didnt realisde how booring they were If you think Applied Science and Geography are boring, wait until you get to Air Law and Ops Procedures.

If your attitude is that Air Law and Ops are necessary evils to be studied and passed in order to achieve your goals, then great. Apply that attitude to your A Levels.

Cheers

Whirls

[TheBeak]

DO NOT DROP OUT OF YOUR A LEVELS. If you are finding school and A levels tough and boring, you genuinely stand no chance with flying - training or the job. You wont like the academia of ATPLs and you wont like the timetabling of your job. Your current mindset and attitude is not going to lead you to big things pal, stick with your A Levels. It's the best place to be in the current economic climate, I would swap with you every day of the next 2 years.

I don't believe the plan you are putting forward is to become a plumber or a builder or a whatever and earn and learn - I think you think you're going to get a job as a baggage handler or a dispatcher or something around the airport and it's all going to be interesting and exciting. I have news for you, you stand no chance. There are 20 applicants to 1 job.

And a PPL in your position? Very expensive to maintain and doesn't even scratch the surface of what is required. Once you have it where are you going to get the 5K for the CPL? The 11K for the IR? The 3K for the ATPLs? The 5K for the hour building? The 5K for living? The sufficient knowledge to pass the ATPLs?

Sure getting a PPL is a great idea and getting it as young as possible and paying for it yourself is admirable. But your post, as shallow as it is, displays worrying signs of failure. I am not trying to be rude and there is no reason you can not achieve your ambition of being a paid pilot but walk before you can run, be patient, don't throw away your current timing advantage and stay focussed.

Winners never quit and quitters never win. Never forget that and you'll be fine.

[buzzc152]

If you can't apply yourself to work in a highly structured and supported environment like college (and A levels aren't exactly hard) then you've no chance of passing the ATPL's and beyond.

Do yourself a large favour.....accept that right now you are niave and inexperienced and listen to the advice of your elders, parents, teachers etc etc. Dropping out of college at such an early stage is madness.

[Capt Pit Bull]

The big conceptual difference between GCSEs and A levels is that at GCSE you are totally spoon fed everything but A levels, to an extent, require you to be more involved in your own development. In otherwords it not just about what you learn, but also learning how to learn.

And trust me, if you don't know how to learn before you start the ATPLs you will do by the end. Really, A levels are pretty small fry compared to the ATPL sylabus, so frankly you need to learn to stick with your nose to the grind stone until you figure out what your conceptual problem is with theoretical learning.

But, ultimately, the factual knowledge within many A levels is not that relevant to an ATPL (although some science will be).

One thing I would caution though is if you do decide to stop your A levels, stop refering to it as 'dropping out'. That phrase has quite a negative association with it. It sounds very much like "I couldn't be bothered", so I would steer away from those particular words if I were you.

pb

[Journey Man]

That is true, but whats the point in him being there if hes not enjoying himself. He could be earning money to pay for training?

@MikadoTrident

Whilst the above is a reasonable assertion however any qualification represents a commitment to something and also an ability to study, as has been mentioned. Academic study is a large part of aviation, principally in passing your CPL/ATPL theory examinations and as you move to different types, etc... Airlines will assess you on whatever you have, and if you have dropped out of your A-Levels, they'll will draw conclusions from that - whether right or wrong.

It has been said here that you don't need A-Levels to fly, and that is certainly true. It doesn't answer the question of whether it's beneficial or not. In some job flying positions you definitely do need technical knowledge of systems, engines, etc... The ATPL theoretical learning is the bare minimum of knowledge and a healthy level of further knowledge is never detrimental.

I think you're on the right track doing your A-levels, especially considering the current market conditions. If you are going to leave, then look at an apprenticeship in the aviation world. Some people suit a more hands on approach, and I think many jobs would be better served by a learnig process involving apprentices rather than colleges and universities producing graduates with no practical or real world experience. Before anyone gets offended, I have a degree in engineering and wholeheartedly feel there should have been a lot more practical experience - or a year placement in industry, which wasn't offered even though the university I attended was considered to be in the top five for engineering. Now I'm starting to digress.

Final point. It appears to me that you're looking for a reasons to get out of your A-levels because you're concerned about your future performance. I would say this to you - rise to the challenge. Find out what it is you need to do to recoup a decent grade. Maybe that means restarting a module? You must have some career guidance personnel who can advise you, so find out know what you need to do to have a decent run at your A-levels and then get your head down for two years. A year or two of your life now could save you many years off your career path in the future. Whilst things may all be golden without A-levels, considering the current climate you haven't got too much to lose by sticking them out and getting the qualifications. If you do decide to stick them out, which I'm sure you are capable of, really commit to them and give them your all as they will be a yardstick of your academic prowess.

All the best in whatever you decide. As has also been said, only you know can know ultimately decide. Good luck! :ok:

[JohnRayner]

When I did my A-levels back in the day when pocket watches and OUTRAGEOUS mosschops where the order of the day, there were always people who'd ended up on the A-level courses who shouldn't have been there. With a bit of decent careers advice a lot of these ended up on more vocational type courses, and went on to do very well.

To the OP. Don't carry on with something if it's making you genuinely miserable. It's never worth it, unless you're fixated on the gain at the end (sports cars, page 3 models. whatever)

The flip side is that you you DO need to do something with your time. What's your definition of "a good part time job" at 17 with no qualifications? I did some WITH A levels, and none of them were remotely "good". Mind numbingly painful with only the weekend to look forward to, yes. Good, no. And how many years of this sort of work will you need to do to fund the £40k (minimum I'd have thought) costs of training. Not to mention that little thing called having any sort of life. More than one or two. Way more.

In fact, I took a year out between A-levels and Uni to see what there was, because I wasn't convinced Uni was for me. Couldn't afford to wander round the world scratching myself in the modern idiom, so did said part time jobs instead. Biggest kick up the erse to get me to do something, ANYTHING that I needed to avoid working long term in the sort of places that would have me with the qualifications I had. Turns out my brother-in-law had the same epiphany.

At 17 you could e.g. dump the A-levels if they're really that bad, train up in something else in a year or two, find some better paid work off the back of that, work and train side by side (training rate and intensity to suit you), come out the other end minimally indebted, fATPLed up, with an alternative career and ONLY IN YOUR EARLY TWENTIES!!

Or you could suck the A-levels up, get them done, and use them for whatever you want to use them for. Am I still right in thinking that they're basically pre-Uni qualifications?

While I know how serious the young potential pilot is about wanting that job, and I know how much effort they want to put into it, your plan as you describe it, will look to someone else pretty much like this:

Reasonably bright chap/ess, doing A levels, couldn't be bothered, quit, now doing crappy dead end job to fund their hobby. Which is all a PPL is to begin with.

Good luck with your choices, make some good ones!

JR

[Halfbaked_Boy]

MikadoTrident,

The replies above regarding how difficult and threatening etc the ATPL ground theory is are absolute rubbish. I found A Levels killer. ATPLs were a breath of fresh air in comparison.

Just thought I'd point it out from somebody who was once in a similar position.

Good luck with your decisions.

[INNflight]

A Levels don't show anything about your flying ability or what you're like to work with.

Unfortunately the recruiters don't know that.

That's nonsense - of course they know that!

What you don't seem to understand is that WHY would a chief pilot / recruiter pick one without A-levels, if there's 500 in line after him who all have them?!?!? :ok:

[FliegerTiger]

The UK is unusual in that A-levels are not usually required to become an airline pilot (unless you are doing some kind of sponsorship)....most other countries will need at LEAST A-levels, some a degree.......

[student88]

And a PPL in your position? Very expensive to maintain and doesn't even scratch the surface of what is required. - couldn't agree with you more, don't get your PPL until you're in a position to maintain it. In the first two years after you pass you need to fly 12 hours with at least 1 hour with an instructor ( 12*120=1440 - and that's assuming a cheap aircraft hire rate, not including the £40 you'll have to bung the instructor with)

What type of job are you expecting to get without any A-Levels? A number of my fellow University graduates are getting sweet :mad: all, not even basic jobs.
You can apply to NATS to become an Air Traffic Controller without A Levels.
Eligibility - Jobs and careers at NATS (http://atcocareers.co.uk/check-your-eligibility.html)

What you don't seem to understand is that WHY would a chief pilot / recruiter pick one without A-levels, if there's 500 in line after him who all have them?!?!? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif - I know exactly what you mean INNflight, however I was making the point regarding getting from having your CV on a desk in HR to being invited to interview - which is commonly the greatest hurdle of all.

[AJ1990]

I've been in your situation myself. After my first year at Sixth Form my results were far from pretty, CDDE. I understand where you come from but it really is a case of sticking at it. I wanted to leave too and the pressing desire to commence my flight training was always there as well. The grass isn't as green as you mite think though. As mentioned above times are tough in the industry, but every industry is struggling. Finding a part-time job in anything at the moment is difficult, I managed to get myself a job as a barmen after searching for near-on two months for anything

Your A-Level results are dictated by what you put in. After pulling my finger out I managed to up my results to BBB with nothing but hard work. If your still in your first year you have plenty of time to repair any damage already done. If your in your second like I was, it's time to knuckle down!

You will never be disadvantaged for having qualifications, only having too few. All the best in your decision :ok:

[Mickey Kaye]

Here is my take – based on my experience.

There is no point it doing anything if you don’t enjoy doing it. This will more than likely mean that you will get crap ‘A’ level results which aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

I started full time employment at 15 and started saving the cash to pay for my flight training. I worked at least two jobs all of them would now be described as minimal wage. Toilet cleaner, warehouse worker, loading the mail at EMA, van driver, baggage handler, ramp work, forklift driver. And I paid for one lesson a fortnight. 18 months later I had my PPL. I then saved 5 grand and which paid for my hour building and multi rating. IMC, CPL and AFI followed all this took my about 7 years and I never got into debt.

A few months into my first instructing job I had health problems and lost my medical.

By this time I learnt how to apply myself and I also realised that minimum wage jobs are pretty ****y. And if I wanted get away from them you had to get qualified.

So back to school it was. This time I was a much more driven. I realised it was good ‘A’ level grades or minimum wage jobs. I aced the ‘A’ levels as well as two degrees. Although I don’t earn huge money I certainly have the potential to do so.

The two positives that I look back on are the fact that I didn’t have any debt and the fact that I hadn’t done ‘A’ levels when I didn’t want to. I would have got crap grades which don’t open many doors. However when you have top grades you really can pick and choose your future career.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

ps make sure the first thing you do is get a class one medical.

[MikadoTrident]

Thanks all for responses, will take them all into consideration. My real concern now is that i'm REALLY struggling to just get E's/D's and the subjects i'm doing are Bussiness, Geography and Psychology. Just wondering whether these subjects with lowish grades really be something worth having?

[student88]

If you can scrape 3 C's that'd be good. Realistically they don't look at anything below A* - C grade. 3 C's are better than nothing, and show that you can start something and finish it.

Good luck, let us know what you decide to do.

[Put1992]

'Good part time job' - Per-lease. :ugh::ugh::ugh:


Ok, I've been slowly doing it for years thanks to mum and dad, but after my first solo, I worked my arse off in Sainsburys at weekends and in the week to pay for the PPL, on top of college, and I still managed to finish my PPL shortly after turning 17, Satisfied my social life, Paid for a first holiday alone with friends, and have done 13 hours in the 6 months post qualifying. Not alot, but it's kepy me happy.

What difference would dropping out of college done?

Stick at it, I, and others on here are in the same boat, theres only 5 months left of your second year at college. Look forward to the last education bound school summer holiday of your life, and then crack on with the working/flying.

Sound
Put.

[Aerouk]

Student88,

I've got friends who are NATS controllers and every single one of them has a University degree. I'm not saying you need a University degree, but if I have a big pile of applications on my desk and I need a reason to cut the numbers down, what chance do you think those with no qualifications have?

My high school friends who left school and education early on are doing nothing with their time. One of them works in a Spar earning £100 a week, one of them is a bus driver, one of them works in the local corner shop and another one works in a Call Centre arguing with customers all day.

[student88]

what chance do you think those with no qualifications have?

Well, I would like to think quite good actually as I have my final interview with NATS to become an ATCO at the end of the month after passing both stages 1 and 2.

I don't have A Levels.

Fingers crossed..

[Groundloop]

There is no point it doing anything if you don’t enjoy doing it.

No doubt millions of people wish they had a choice!

[betpump5]

Don't be :mad: stupid. drop out of A levels? You can't even get a Tesco's job without a degree. Finding it too hard are you? Diddums.

[CaptainElectron]

How about talking to someone about changing your subjects and your difficulties, surely they will listen and be reasonable about it, as long as you're up-front, honest and willing to do something about it to help yourself and have the right attitude. If you have same attitude you have at the moment of just giving up because it's too hard, you're not going to get anywhere with the ATPL and may as well just forget about it. Harsh words, but you need to hear the truth of what is required of you in this industry. ATPL theory is not a walk in the park (unless you're a genius like me, which you aren't) - so if you can't handle this, you've got tough times ahead.

Do something about it and work with your teachers rather than giving up.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Thread drift...

Student88, are they still using those dreaded cube nets on the first stage selection?! I made it through to the final stage a couple of years ago, but unfortunately fell short of the mark at that point. Make sure your heart's in it, because this was my downfall.

Best of luck to you :ok:

[SloppyJoe]

I pretty much totally screwed up at school. Was doing Biology, Maths and Chemistry. Dropped biology as hated it even more than the other two and left school with a D in Chemistry and an E in Maths, went to Uni, amazingly I got into one. Did that for a few weeks then dropped out. Could not get a descent job and spent the next two years working in factories trying to scrape the cash together to fund some training, living with parents. On minimum wage this was going to take a long time. Nothing worse than working in a factory for 12 hours from 6 till 6 overnight. For those two years I thought **** pretty much every day, if only I had done better at school, gone to Uni, joined the RAF (got a flying scholarship, passed the aptitude near the top of the applicants and was told to come back after uni, join the UAS and I should be ok) but as had only a D and E at the time had not really proven myself. I am not stupid, well not mentally inadequate, just didnt care when I was at school so didnt put in the effort.

Eventually my dad decided to help me out and I ended up two years after dropping out of Uni in the states doing my training. If he had not done that I would still be in some ****ty job in the UK and by ****ty I mean ****ty, one I had was shoveling **** out of a filtration tank at a waste treatment plant during the filter refurbishment :-( I am lucky that he stepped in.

So after I got my FAA ME/CPL/IR I managed to find a job in a 206 and 7 years later after working in some of the worst places in the world, Kabul, North Africa etc I had managed to amass almost 3000 hours mostly in twin turboprops. I am now holding sandwiches and babysitting the Airbuses for Cathay as a second officer, not complaining, the pay and housing are pretty good and it is a good company compared to most.

So as you can see it is possible (was possible) without good academic results. If I could do it all again I would try :mad: hard at school as could be so much further in my career than I am now. Looking back I have enjoyed all the flying I have done and all the places I have seen and lived but without a doubt I would have rather got good grades and found a job in the right seat of an A320 or 737 10 years ago as now would have been a Captain with them or FO with the likes of VS or BA. You cannot find a good job with low hours and having done **** at school, that is a fact, I know. You can find a job (could) and then get enough experience working your way up through single pistons, twins, turboprops to make it to a descent company but trust me it is hard. Eventually companies don't care about how you did at school as it really is not important if you have proven yourself in other ways, didn't even come up, the D and E at A-levels during my CX interview. It just takes a lot of time and effort and luck to make it not be a problem anymore. The decision you are making now will affect you for the next 5-10 years and maybe I was lucky to get that first, second, third, fourth, fifth and now sixth flying job, I dont know, could have just been right place and right time.

Good luck either way. Think you need it either way in this industry, especially now and how it seems to be going.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As the appalling spelling and grammar of this thread goes to show, education is like totally dumbed down these days. A couple of grade B A-levels are going to get you precisely nowhere. Neither is the horrendously expensive 3 year degree in Pointlessness at Sheffield.

Do not persist with education whilst unfocussed and immature.

What you, I, or anybody else understands at your age is that you are still a caterpillar until your late twenties.

You may think you have a plan for your future. What you're suited to. What you aspire. You don't. It will change.

Your innate qualities might lend themselves to commercial pilot. They may not. To throw money at it now is unwise. You won't do anywhere near as well per £ as you will do if you spend the same £ in your late 20's. It seems a long way away but it really isn't.


Young people are routinely separated from £ by flying schools by means of airline pilot imagery.


My advice for now.


Well.


Be young, bugger off out of the recession riddled West, go to Thailand, South America, wherever, have a lifetime of amazing experiences whilst it doesn't matter then come back.

At the moment you're unemployable.

For any job.


WWW

[ba038]

WELL......This is my advice being 19 and have been through what your experiencing. NEVER give up i came out with appalling gcses and FAILED miserably at my first year of AS (uuu) with one re-take in math’s (A).Thankfully.


Once again NEVER give up .I had retaken. Today i ve got offers from UCL ,LSE,CASS.Yes if you care to notice there all top unis i never gave up i tried and tried .Sweat,blood and tears throughout!....enough about me now.

TRY harder with your studies and never give up. Ride out this ridiculous recession...and once you’re more mature make your own judgment whether the aviation industry is for you.


Finally....



GOOD LUCK.....with whatever you do.:ok:.


ba038

[206Fan]

Do the A Levels. Do NOT turn your back on education at 17 years of age with the current economic mess. Unless daddy has 60 odd Grand in the bank he can give you for flying, do your A Levels and go to University. I regrettably dropped out of school after my GCSEs.

After dropping out I got into a trade for a few years before deciding to do my Helicopter PPL. I went to Florida in 2008 with a lovely loan for 6 weeks to accomplish exactly that. After returning back to the UK with a plan to hour build towards my CPL while working, I was told by my employer there wouldn't be any work for about 2 months or more. Work did crop up but only here and there throughout the year. Due to this I didn't get to fly very much because I had to pay the dam loan plus run my car. Now I am 23 and back at college doing an Electrical Engineering Diploma before progressing onto University all going well.

Anyway as I said get your heads into them books and do the A Levels. This is one piece of paper you need for gaining entrance to Military flight training. I've always dreamed of flying a Chinook for the RAF but it won't happen now because I was silly enough to leave school early and not do better. :(

You can do Aerospace Engineering Degrees at University now that includes pilot studies towards a frozen Fixed Wing ATPL.

Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies: BEng (Hons) ~ Undergraduate degrees ~ The University of Liverpool (http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/H401.htm)

Jumping into the Aviation world without a backup is a big gamble. Even though I have a Pilot Ticket already the flying is being put in second place for now.

Also just to mention lastly, some airlines run a pilot cadet scheme. Any of these programs will require the applicant to hold some nice academics on paper.

I know you are young, I was that age 6 years ago and just wanted to drink and party every weekend. I HATED studying with a passion but now I am back at college after toooo long I am loving it. Don't do what I done, get your education first then worry about being up in the clouds.:)

Good Luck with whatever you decide :ok:

Dave

[MikadoTrident]

UPDATE - Things are looking slightly more positive. I'll stick at it and see how this year goes, hopefully will stay on for A2 next year!

Thanks very much for all help and support!

Much Appreciated :)

[Journey Man]

Is there anyway you can get extra tuition from your tutors or even pay a private tutor to help you through and improve your grades.

MikadoTrident, I think the above advice would be an excellent course of action - and more constructive than a PPL at the moment.

[Sweet Potatos]

MikadoTrident ..... Good man. You're making the right choice. :D

Work hard, there is time for flying later. Trust me. I'm an old(ish) git and air traffic controller. Gonna start flying again shortly.

[ONCALL]

am glad you've decided to finish your studies. much like your studies, being a pilot is about staying committed to your craft and not giving in when it gets a little tough. good luck!

[pilotboy 95]

what about gcse's. i am 14 yrs old and next year i want to start my ppl training but are the gcse very important towards my airline pilot dreams or are they just important exams which have no connection toward my dreams.
thanks:)

[student88]

PB95 - make sure you give your GCSEs 100% effort and attention. Under no circumstances should you not bother with them. They're reeeeally important.

Most employers these days ask for a minimum of GCSE English and Maths, and that's for a job in Sainsbury's.

S88

[pilotboy 95]

gcse's are still 2 years away but i will try my best to get A's. i am plannig to do 9-10.
thank for replying so fast.