Line training: the debate

[170to5]

Seeing as countless people who come onto these forums now seem to be asking about line training programs, I thought it would be useful for them to be able to read the opinions on these schemes of actual operating pilots, not just of the people who do them but of the damage they do to the flying industry.

I hope this will begin to open people's eyes on the status these pay-to-fly persons are given, both good and bad (I suspect there will be more one than the other), and they will actually consider the fact that they are being told how they will be seen by the wider pilot body. Which is in reality a very, very small community, and is comprised of the people who will one day be interviewing you for a job when the question 'so I see here that you had your first 150 hours with [insert company name]...what's that all about?' arises. Glad I never had to answer that one with my pilot recruiter.

I would start but I'm eating my lunch.

Discuss.

[hollingworthp]

SSTR is a shame but generally unavoidable in the current market conditions - it is hard to ignore the volume of flying you will get with RyanAir and the pay is good assuming you get the right roster.

However, paying for line-training is just plane (see what I did there?) wrong IMHO.

Is it a career (i.e. where they pay you) you are looking for or just the world's most expensive playground ride (where you pay them)?

[170to5]

some would say, yes a playground. But you pay them and they ride you.

[student88]

I am not a operating pilot however I fear that this will soon become the norm unless action is taken by groups like BALPA.

If a facebook petition can stop the X-Factor finalist reaching the Christmas number one then us as a pilot community can do something, even if it's to educate wannabe pilots.

It's just knowing what to do :confused: Ideas anyone?

Anyway, I'm off to Bluewater - it's been nice knowing you.

S88

[EI-CON]

I think the airlines who do these programs are partly to blame aswell as the individuals who sign up to them. They are making a mock of the profession and of the individuals involved.

To add to the latest Easyjet one I have also heard Farnair are running a similar program.

[170to5]

I've just copied my reply to a thread about line training which gives my opinion in a brief manner, which is most unlike me:

Personally, I'd happily avoid giving someone a name, and preaching. I would then go on the inform said person of the existence of those other threads, and hence they would realise why people won't give them a name.

Paying for line training is taking a job from someone. And those who undergo these programs thinking 150 hours will help at a time when there are thousands of people out of a job are not only misled, but foolish.

The rot in this industry is driven by the realisation that people are willing to pay for what would otherwise be someone's living. That management boards have realised not only that they can abuse pilots, but can actually make some people pay for the 'privilege' of flying commercially, is disastrous for those of us who want a career in this industry. Commercially, by which I mean FLYING FOR A LIVING.

[ab33t]

not only are they ridding us but we pay them for the privilage

[Torque Tonight]

I won't make any comment on the 'what other people think of you' aspect, as I don't think that is always a reliable yardstick. What I will say though, is that the whole point of line training is to indoctrinate a new pilot into a particular company's SOPs. Therefore, undertaking line training independently or at an airline that will not provide employment after completion of training is utterly pointless and any 'graduate' of such schemes stands almost no chance of gaining employment, especially in the current market.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

The pilots who I know who fly jets were lucky enough to have the airline fund the TR as a bond and one of those was Easyjet and they were all modular - times sure have changed.

It sounds like the airlines just hard/tight for cash like everyone and most businesses and the best way to minimise the risk is to get the pilots to carry the burden on their shoulder with even more debt and the airline still wins. ... until pilots decide to stop paying!!! :mad:

I'm still progressing with my training but if airlines keep on doing this I have a feeling I may just give up rather than "paying" an employer to give me a job. We'll no doubt see extra costs on top of a TR for the pilot to pay and will become no doubt the norm (line training) .. in short, the career isn't worth pursuing at all, whilst all the time your expected to pay more and more, not guranteed a job or could loose it on the click of the finger if you *** up your medical! There are some who may sell their home to live in a Caravan or shed to try and make it work!

There will become a point that trainees from e.g. CTC, OAA etc will start seeing that being massively in debt and being pilled with more and more debt is just :ugh: ... but hey, some learn the hard way :ok:

I'm actually glad I didn't get accepted by CTC, I think they did me a favour in many ways and let others get massively in debt, with even more debt potenially from the sounds of things, thanks :ok:

There is more to life than just being bankcrupt and helping keep a business in business with your own money! lol

Right that's that out of my system! Can't believe how this industry is developing!! :=

[Artie Fufkin]

When I signed up for flight training, I was advised (correctly) that I should understand that I would need to be able to do whatever it takes to land my first job, be that working at the wrong end of the country, sacrifice relationships, maybe even pay for a type rating (if a firm job offer was attached) etc.

But paying for line training, especially now, is not "whatever it takes".

Firstly, the airline you pay will typically give you enough hours to pass a line check. In the same way that you only start to learn to drive after you pass your driving test, you only start to learn properly how to fly jets / airline style flying once you are line checked and let loose to terrorise the airline's line captains. This is of course the point where pay-to-fly pilots are cut loose. You'll be rough as a badgers arse and airline recruiters know it.

Secondly, there are no jobs currently available. Throwing money at the problem will not work. You'll pay for your line flying up to check ride and then join the dole queue of all the other out of work pilots, all of whom are much more employable than you. It is an absolutely insane idea.

[SinBin]

Guys, my airline does line training, and to be honest these 'pay as you go types' are all treated like outcasts, so much so they don't even come into the crewroom any more as they'll be linched. The reason, over 100 of us properly employed pilots are due to be laid off, with these idiots doing our flying and no stopping to it, lots of very bitter feeling now, understandably. When you are in my situation you will realise what a pointless and dreadful exercise this is. It really is killing this once respectable profession, and that is a fact. No-one is recruiting low hours guys, even the PAYG cadets. DON'T DO IT, IT IS COMPLETELY POINTLESS, 150 HOURS ON TYPE IS USELESS, wait your turn it will come, even if it is 2-3 years, the industry is in the worst downturn ever, FACT.

[riciardi]

Paying for flying, flying prostitutes etc..

In the old days the airlines would pay from zero to hero!

Now-a-days those of you who have paid for the fronzenATPL are as prostitutes as those who pay for line training. The difference is on the bank account. Those who can´t afford the fronzen ATPL think the same about those who can..

[170to5]

And you'll earn a lot of respect from the guys you end up working with because you took that route!

And I didn't even realise that people were paying to fly commercial single seat!

[hollingworthp]

Can you even log time in the RHS of a single-pilot rated aircraft?

[Anne.Nonymous]

Having looked at some of his previous posts it appears that I work for the same airline as SinBin but, as this is a debate about the whole scheme, perhaps we should have the facts.


We do have PAYG F/Os.
It is CAA approved scheme
They are there with BALPA agreement.
They generate income and retain training posts that would otherwise go
There is no reduction in manning levels due to PAYG F/Os - there IS a redundancy package in place due to the overall restructuring of the airline and the subsequent reduction in routes and frequency of some flights.


The only loss to the other F/Os is the loss of allowances because we will be either at home on 'stand-by' or on airport stand-by in which case we get lower allowances.

The AOC issued by the CAA requires the airline to be fully manned with trained pilots - otherwise the Flt Ops inspector would have a ball!

One other fact is that £10,000 for 150 hours flying is only £67 per hour - very cheap hour building that includes on the airline experience! Like it or not it is here to stay.

Certainly not management but just want to get the facts straight.

Anne :)

[Torque Tonight]

£67/hr is a bargain - you couldn't rent a clapped out Cessna 150 for that. But then again maybe not such a bargain when you consider that £67/hr is perhaps £150/hr more expensive than being a professional pilot undertaking line training once was. Once upon a time airlines used to pay the pilots to operate revenue flights, not the other way round. I'll tell my kids but they'll never believe it! Merry Christmas to bmi shareholders etc.

[Photon85]

There seems to be a way, yes

[Superpilot]

Indeed £10k and even £15k is an absolute bargain for 150 hours of hour building in a multi crew twin jet aircraft. However despite the bargain that it appears to be when compared to hour building in a C152 or PA-28, ask yourself what the airline is gaining. Essentially, these airlines are doing away with the need of ever hiring First Officers. All they need to do is hire and pay a bunch of experienced training captains to sit in the left seat.

Hence, each and every one of us who take up such offers, we are actually quite directly putting in another nail into our own coffins. As by offering line "training" these very airlines who would ordinarily be looking to hire us will have no such openings in months and years to come. Why? they would much rather take on a new batch of cadets just churned out by flight schools all ready and eager to work for free for 3-6 months.

The regulators of European aviation are asleep and the unions pathetically scared to do anything about it. The choice is clear. Every single person contemplating line training without a firm job offer must reject and forget this idea.

[Kirks gusset]

Can I start a discussion on " line training, the backlog" whilst there is plenty of referrence to the topic and morality of these programs, has anyone actually considered the backlog of applicants in the system? As a TRI I am shocked to see guys appearing for recurrent training that signed up to these programs nearly a year ago..maybe the deal should include a recurrent check if you get side lined! The Airlines may give you an OCC and LPC, but what happens in the mean time, the months of waiting, sitting in distant lands at your cost. These companies depend on the enthusiasm of the student and the bottomless pockets of the parents, relatives and banks. Rather than question the morals, and let's face it, these schemes will continue, perhaps some form of regulation, escrow bonding should be in place.. just a thought. Seasonal greetings!

[wanabe2010]

"The choice is clear. Every single person contemplating line training without a firm job offer must reject and forget this idea"

they won't, the temptation to fly a passenger jet is too big. They will do anything to get the job.
When you have spent so much money for your commercial training, you can not stop. We became "drug addicted".

Then, there is the problem to not to loose face.What my friends& family will say after I have spent all my money for nothing? Waiting or going on these ripp off schemes.
After type rating, line training, easyjet will soon sell blocktime on their bus. 500h or 1000h on jet will become soon a "new standard"in this industry and many schools will offer these schemes after the MCC and the type rating to stay competitive.

Aviation will become the most expensive training in the world.
In the future, we may see a drop of applicants, but there will be always enough young wanabes looking for the gig on jets airplanes.
There will be two trainingpaths, the one for flight instructor, seaplane, etc and the one for the "lines".

[IrishJetdriver]

Don't pay for line training or a TR. Not without a firm job offer. When you've got low hours (total) you've not much ingrained skill and what skill you have is quickly eroded through lack of practice. Add to that, the skills needed to operate highly complex jet aircraft both safely and efficiently are also rapidly lost without continued practice and basic line training hours are not going to get you anywhere near the level you need where a quick trip in the sim is all you need. You need at least 500hrs on type to be reasonably proficient/consistent. I've got 8000hrs, 6300hrs on commercial jets and very very current, yet when I take even a couple of weeks leave the first day back feels very much like an out of body experience. Imagine you've only 70hrs on type, and you haven't flown that type for a year, maybe more, then you will most likely be right back at the same point you were before you started. You'll probably spend a fortune on getting revalidated each year and you'll still need line training at any other employer anyway. And by the way, it's not easy to fly different SOPs on the same type for a different operator. The majority of my remaining hours were built flying instructing. 13 years. Part time. Just building experience because I couldn't afford to fly any other way and saving money for the commercial. I loved it (but admit I don't particularly desire to do it again) and it gave me a very solid foundation of flying skills. OK, instructing jobs are like hens teeth also, but the rating is nowhere near £30k+ to obtain and is a damn sight easier and cheaper to maintain than a jet rating.
Hope this makes sense. The glass of red wine was quite strong.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Hollingworth I agree with the first paragraph of your first post, it is the only thing available at the moment and so very much unavoidable.
However I am guessing that you went into flying for the same reasons as I and many do, for the flying! Correct?
Yes paying for ur rating is wrong but like you said the flying hours are good with it, and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly! How many hours have you done this month?? I no times are hard in the vlj sector!! But I suppose flooding that market with low houred cadets whilst others in the same part of industry who have valuable experience are let go is completely fair?? But that's for another topic!
I am not having a dig but you said it your self it's the only thing out there and atleast now the Ryan gig isn't the worse out there!!!
Happy new year everyone!

[aslan1982]

After reading through countless treads on this topic and others, its hard to find anything positive coming from people.
A lot of people come onto this site to have a moan and a bitch without giving anything constructive. Its actually quite depressing reading through some of the comments.
Ive been trying to find some constructive advice on the pros and cons of self funding a type rating and paying for line experience.
I finished my training towards the end of the year and have been looking for a job since before I finished.
Ive looked into various options available to me.
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job.
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska

Now before the haters come out let me explain a few things.
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im would fund this myself through bank loans
. I have no current debt
. Im in my late 20's

Nearly ever post I've read about this says DONT DO IT. Its bad for the industry..........your taking jobs from other more qualified people..........u shouldn't have to pay for a job..................

Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure?
What do the recruiters think of these schemes?
What are the pros and cons?
Is this the way of the future?

Please no bashing. There are other threads to continue the bashing. I just want some objective views and advice.

Thanks in advance

[Finals19]

Please no bashing. There are other threads to continue the bashing. I just want some objective views and advice.

OK. First of all you are going to be lucky to post like you have and not get people bashing you. Its a very emotive subject and some of what you propose is going to stir people up.

My 2p's worth on your situation and your ideas:

- You honestly need to keep actively and creatively looking for ANY type of associated flying work / work connected to aviation. Looking since the end of the year is no time at all and clearly (without sounding patronising and not intending to be so) in the current climate its going to take some considerable time.

- Yes, keep on filling in any applications you can make. If you have time, put on a suit and go and introduce yourself to a few smaller operators at your local / regional airport. Also, do anything you can to keep current and in touch with the industry - your idea of doing some structured hour building is a good one. Like that you will be well positioned when things do start back up.

- Do not buy a type rating and hope for anything!!!! Quite simply put, you're throwing money down the drain in a vain attempt to jump the queue. The only time you would surely ever consider doing this is if you had a guaranteed job offer at the end - or if a company wanted to bond you. Don't be fooled by some of these cowboy TR + Line training companies. Its a lose-lose for everyone and the entire industry in the long run. Once the line training is over there's a gazillion guys out there with way more hours on type than you will have. Your end position will be no better than your start position.

- Forget going to Canada or Alaska unless a) you have 500 plus hours of float experience and b) have the right to work or live out there. Unfortunately there's a ton of guys also looking who have all of the above.

Sorry to sound negative, but it really is a case of doing whatever you can to keep in touch with the industry, keeping current and remaining as positive as possible. Save your hard earned cash, don't just buy a TR. When things do turn around, you will be pleased you did.

[The African Dude]

I'm not sure that this is in the right forum but I do have something to say in response so I'll reply anyway.

The options you are considering?
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite? - yes, can't see how that can be a bad idea
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite? - if you can afford it, staying current is never a bad idea
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job. ?... see the responses below....
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska - that's the way many current airline pilots started out (I believe), a good idea for a lot of reasons.


You mention regarding type rating -
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im funding this myself through bank loans
OK, firstly it does appear that you have already made the decision - and I fully understand your desire to be in the right-hand seat or something, but whoever's paying for it actually doesn't change what's happening.

. I have no current debt
That is an excellent thing if you are fully qualified. Well done on making the right choices (lots of assumptions I'm making there!) to get this far with the minimum of debt. Do you really want to ruin all that hard work just because everybody else you know has a lot more debt than you would end up with? Debt is still debt, regardless of whether it's more of less than the next person in line.

. Im in my late 20's
So you feel pressured into getting an airliner job immediately? Think long-term, Aslan. I'm only a year younger than you. We have our whole career ahead of us. If you have the option to do something as exciting as floatplane flying in Canada or Alaska, this would be the perfect time in your life to do it. You get one shot at life. Not just at airline flying (which, by the way, doesn't seem to be presenting much in the way of shots to take right now), but everything that life has to offer. OK, so again with the assumptions, I am ignoring the possibility of family, mortgage and so on.

Your other questions:

Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure? - Many people have had both. Ryanair in this country, for example, employs many people who have self-funded, but there are also many people who self-fund and do not get a job all over the world.

What do the recruiters think of these schemes? - I can't answer that as I'm not a recruiter. If I was, though, I would lock on to the fact that you were willing to pay for your training and then, later in your career, offer you the chance to pay for your LPC/OPC, Command Upgrade, Away-from-base Accommodation - all because I know you did it once before at a time when you had no guarantee of employment - which would make my offer a relatively sweet one surely?!

What are the pros and cons? - Pro: You learn something new
Con: As you have said yourself, no guarantee of a job for a very high cost. i.e. high risk to reward - it's basically a gamble. Should pilots gamble with risks? Sorry, I'm sidetracking... but you get my point... I hope. Con: Somebody will probably get you to work for free as part of your type-rating "cost". Once that's done, there is a high chance that instead of paying you to stay on board, the next person exactly like yourself will be ushered into your still-warm seat to take your place... for free. See what I mean about risk to reward? Not much reward when you end up without a job.

And to link into your last question..
CON:
Is this the way of the future? - It will become that way if we keep signing these deals. Forget about the possibility of being one of the "lucky" ones who gets in before it all goes to pot. You will be in the pot when we all boil. Scary? I hope so.

Don't try to kid yourself that just because you have no debt you can afford to pay for an outsourced type rating up front with no job guarantee. The ramifications on your terms and conditions in the future will add up to much more than the cost of the rating itself. That may not be what you want to hear, but there is a reason why everybody keeps saying it.

Sorry I couldn't be more positive.
AD

[TheBeak]

Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure?

-Undoubtedly yes to both. Ryanair pilots for the time being are experiencing success. Some of the people that first did these schemes have experienced success. The future is a completely different one and I very much hope that everyone who embarks on one of these PTF schemes experiences cataclysmic failure.


What do the recruiters think of these schemes?


- The 'recruiters' using them to achieve revenue love them. Past that a pilot interviewing you is going to dislike you - intensely in the most part.


What are the pros and cons?

- PROs:

- You can tell girls you are a pilot.
- You can wear the uniform to the supermarket.
- Your parents, at dinner parties, can tell their friends you are a pilot.
- It keeps airfares low and load factors higher.
- For the period you can keep current.

- CONs ( A rather apt choice of word):

- You will have wasted £30K+ which is difficult to earn and incredibly easy to spend. (Unless it's your parents money, which you say it isn't so this will be an EXTREME factor for you - I too could buy some TR with line hours but I know how hard I have to work to get the money, so I shaln't be giving it away so that some 'alwight mate' with bleach blond hair and an earing can go on holiday with his girlfriend Beyonce for less - because that's all you are doing, lowering the cost base for the airline so they can lower their prices and remain competitive).
- You'll be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot and has the 'balls' / brain to tell you so.
- You are delaying the ineviatble, you wont be kept on and you will go uncurrent.
- You are showing your net worth to future employers, you'll have no room to bargain for anything.
- You'll probably kill yourself - leave it to the people who have the knowledge, skills, IPs and patience to make it.

Is this the way of the future?

- For the short term future yes. It CAN NOT be the way for the long term future, nature doesn't work that way. Short term future is possibly 5 years.

If you are smart enough to have done all your training and be in the financial position to buy a TR with no help and no debt you should have been able to work this out for yourself.

DON'T BUY A TR AND LINE HOURS. YOU WILL REGRET IT IF YOU DO.

[SloppyJoe]

Getting a float pane rating because you think you will get a job in Alaska or Canada is probably an even bigger waste of money than paying for line training. Not as morally stupid but wont get you a job. Sorry for being blunt but have been there and dont want you to delude yourself.

[Ronand]

HI aslan, I must say, that I am in a similar position as you are. Frozen ATPL with low hours and no job in seight.
The Situation for us is basically this:
There are no jobs for low hour guys like us at the moment, not even FI jobs.... And the situation is still getting worse. As experienced pilots are still laid off and loads of wannabes are still training to be unemployed.....

A float rating with no hours won't get you anywhere, It might be fun and not even that expensive but it will definately not get you a job for the time being

The deal with T/R and Linetraining is: Anything less than 500 hrs linetraining won't get you anywhere at all. Then even if u get 500hrs on an A320 your chances of finding a job afterwards are still very slim. I would guess arround 5-10%. (And don't even think about doing the cheaper 737 rating, there are tons of jobless people with NG ratings....
Then whey out your chances: Is it wise put 50k on 5-10%? I decided for myself:No
I personally know people who did self sponsored 320 and 737 ratings some of them are starting (waiting to start) Linetraining at the moment. Some of them on 100k debts....

[mad_jock]

A float rating with no hours won't get you anywhere

You would be suprised with some smaller operators....

It might very well get you into the pile for the filing cabinet instead of the direct route to the bucket. It shows you enjoy flying for the sake of flying. Same with alpine ratings and other fun things that pilots do and would love to continue doing after they have got a RHS gig.

It won't help you if a HR deptment filter the CV's but if you CV lands on the desk of a Chief Pilot of say a charter outfit flying Jetstrteams or Kingairs or the like. H'mm a 250 hour intergrated or a modular 250 hour or 250 hour modular + float hey look this guy has done some float flying always wanted to do that myself was going to go up to scotland but never got round to it (as hand reaches across to phone to call for an interview)

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Just bide your time. When the upturn comes (or if it does not) just make sure that your finances are not screwed. By doing a TR you are going to put yourself under financial pressure. Big trouble if you can't (and you won't) get a well paid job. If you remain debt free and concentrate on your current career your options will be wide open in an upturn. If you HAVE to be on a big jet salary because of your finances, then your options are likely to be limited.

The float rating sounds like a good idea, though I doubt you'll get a job with it any time soon. But, as you are debt free, it is not that expensive and any flying and additional training will keep you sharp. I fly for an airline and am going to Jack Brown's Seaplane Base, in Florida to do my Single Engine Sea rating this year; just for the fun of it.

[aslan1982]

Thank you guys for all the advice and opinions. It has made a difference. Yesterday I was all for doing it but I've decided not to go for the type rating + line training option.

What I will do is do some structured hour building to keep my skills in check.
I think just renting a plane on my own would be damaging because I'm not really going to teach myself and my bad habits would become really bad ones.

Flying with an instructor who knows your situation and knows what skills you should be developing would be alot more beneficial.
Maybe throw in a sea plane rating for some fun.

I think patience is the key. It will happen eventually. best of luck to all of you

Thanks again

Just out of interest does anyone know why the 737type rating and line training soooo much cheaper than the a320

[mad_jock]

I fly for an airline and am going to Jack Brown's Seaplane Base, in Florida to do my Single Engine Sea rating this year; just for the fun of it.

Bit jealous actually. I can't be bothered with all the TSA bollocks though.

[v6g]

4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska

I'm intrigued by this myth ... I'd love to know where it originates.

[TheBeak]

Just out of interest does anyone know why the 737type rating and line training soooo much cheaper than the a320

It's called supply and demand.

And yes v6g, I can imagine it annoys you reading that 'pie-in-the-sky' assumption whilst you are living in Canada probably with a Transport Canada CPL/IR and no flying job.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

The Beak, can I ask you a question without you having a go? I have always been honest, and you know the situation I am in from previous encounters on a different thread.
Its just about the Pros and Cons argument you put forward, well mainly about the Cons as the Pros although quite true, are just a handfull of the actuall Pros.
You say that anyone doing a SSTR will be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot? What about those that are doing the SSTR? Also the others out there that believe its the best of a raw deal? (although obviously on here thats a minority!) I did alot of digging and asking of questions to fellow commercial pilots who currently fly in the industry and ALL said for me to do it and not throw the option away as it was decent to be offered a place as many are not!
We will eventually become uncurrent?? Any evidence?? No offence but any Ryanair pilot out there that you know of that has been layed off?? I dont??
Your net worth to future employers remark is something that has actually worried me the beak. I do worry sometimes especially with the comments being expressed that maybe in the future a fellow employer may ask why I decided on that route. The answer is I will tell them? The truth, I researched, I had the money, I passed the assessment, I gained valuable experience whilst keeping current.
I will probably kill my self?? Well I am affraid I do not agree with that my friend. What is the difference between me and others now walking into my TR, passing it and base check and walking out onto the line to fly Bob and Brenda to Malaga (in march) and those that were lucky enough to walk straight into a job after the same amount of hours as I have as a low houred pilot just four years ago when times were GOOD, going through the same TR, passing it and base training and flying Nigel and Nigela to Rome?? There isnt really! They have the same experience as me as a low houred pilot, they have done the same course, the only difference is they didn't have to pay for their TR as I have had to..... Aren't they the lucky ones!! How does the fact that I payed for my TR make me a pilot that is prone to kill myself??
I have my own ideas about waiting a few MORE years for the times to change (chears Mr Bob Dylan), and they are, what is stopping airlines in the future making everyone pay for their TR's?? Don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing is just adding to the problem, but I wasn't the first to start this and so maybe the finger should be pointed at the guys who initially started paying for their TR's??
You talk about the option as a SSTR as being a short term thing... 5 years would taking a very average 700 hours at RYR, 3500 hours on type possibly half to a year of that, 350-700 in command, thats not really a bad thing to have now is it??
I hope that in the future its not like this, and I also hope that you The Beak get flying again and regain the passion you no doubt once had.
All the best in the new year, and safe flying!:ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Chaps you need to remember that after all is said and done its just a job, you will have bad and good days at the office in much the same way you do now.

If we were recruiting (which were not) I would probably get to screen the CV's and I'd be looking for something to jump out at me and to be honest I'd rather slam my dick in the door than hire an inexperienced pilot whos been out of work for 4 months or more with a 320/737 type rating. What if I was recruiting onto a turboprop?

Heres a plan.

Dont train

Heres another.

If you have trained already, put any thoughts of a flying career onto a back burner for 2 years, ask anybody in the industry just how cyclical it is, we have normal times, boom tiimes and crap times - right now its crap in two or three years it'll be normal and in 5 years if you've got a pulse and an IR you'll get hired. I can remember some operators ringing Oxford to find out who had passed their IR that day and arranging interviews for them their and then.

However.....

We find ourselves at the opposite end of the sine wave, get a job outside aviation, formally rent a plane for 40mins a week and go shoot an ILS with a mate, put enough to one side for a trip in a twin every 6 months and dont even try to keep your IR current save your cash. Put even more enough money to one side for an IR renewal and 5 hours in the oldest sim you can find with the crustiest cheapest ex airline pilot you can find.

At the interview with the DFO or CP that will inevitably happen as long as you have an IR and a pulse (just a case of when) chat with pride that you did the right thing and showed excellent judgement and stuck to your "currency plan" as you knew that it would get you to be sat in the chair that you are presently residing in.

You have more chance of getting a job today than yesterday and the night is always darkest just before dawn.

Go get some fornication done in a kibbutz or be a ticket tout outside a bar in Spain for two years, if you have commitments dig holes in the road. Accept that aviation is unavailable to you right now unless you wish to rent an airliner which lets face it is just plain stupid

[Finals19]

Tommyg737...

Don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing is just adding to the problem, but I wasn't the first to start this and so maybe the finger should be pointed at the guys who initially started paying for their TR's??

What a shocking lack of moral fortitude. Sorry mate, but its exactly this kind of mentality that is making the whole industry so horrible and polarised.

G-SPOTs Lost...

Hear hear! Sound advice and indeed the type of long termist, wholistic approach many more people should adopt.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Finals19
Sorry bout that statement, your very right to flag me up on it. I am not a
C&@k honest. What I am trying to get across is that from our point of view right now from the time I qualified back in april is that SSTR is the only way to go if you want a job. Unfortunatly we know no different and that's awful to admit, but it is true, it's ok to say wait but the way we have entered into the industry and the time we have entered into it we see no point as there may never be the old times back.
The industry is obviously changing, as a Yorkshire man, change is not good!! But as a human we must learn to adapt to change.
Happy landings everyone!

[ROSCO328]

Tommyg737

You really need to grow up :yuk:

[Kirks gusset]

The industry is in a mess, we all know that a few hundred guys waiting for line training isn't going to make a difference either way, having said that, the cash they inject into the airlines, the salaries they don't take may just keep a few wheels on some wagons, but not many, maybe a few North African outfits, small Greek outfits and swell the coffers of the Hungarians. This forum keeps bashing the SSTR and Pay to Fly guys, what about the companies selling the Line Flying in the full knowledge the delay will be months and months. Apart from BMI in the UK I know of no Airline that delivers these product on time.. I hoped to be proved wrong? On the wider issue, the industry is now looking after itself.. GSM guys possible Qatar contracts, Monarch guys at Olympic, Sky Europe guys with TUI, even Ryanair doing their bit. What this does mean, of course, is the openings for the newbies are very very few and far between. Mind you, the Line training sellers won't tell you this!

[go around flaps15]

He is starting with FR and paying the 30 odd grand. He is going to be on 35 euros an hour till line checked then he will be on 56 per hour till the next bracket and so and so on.
The type rating will be paid off soon if he is shrewd. If he performs well over the next 3 to 4 years he WILL be up for command. If FR are still doing well and he wants to stay at FR, he WILL stay.
If he shrugs his shoulders and says sod this and doesnt turn up to East Mids, Stockholm, or Amsterdam for the over priced(by my own admission) type rating, will he be sitting in the LHS of the 737 in 4 to 5 years? Not a hope in hell!
He is making his move. Is it the right one? At the moment probably. After paying for the type rating and all the rest of it, he will enjoy working for FR, that I am sure of.


:ugh:

[BigGrecian]

They used to have similar schemes in the USA - then there was a fatal accident.

Due pilot error or not - it was leaked the FO was paying to be in the right hand seat - it is now not "accepted" within the industry that people should pay to do a professionals job which people should be paid for.

It starts and ends with us as pilots. If we say no as a group then they would have to pay pilots. Those who say yes to it ruin terms and conditions for us all, and it is a downwards spiral from there. Terms and conditions will only get worse because of you. If you think you are a professional pilot don't do it - have more self respect. However, nowadays people do not consider pilots professionals, nor do we deserve respect as a profession whilst people carry on doing this.

To stick to the facts I have:
I know lots of pilots who paid for line training - not one flies the type they paid for line training on.
Two ended up paying for a 2nd type rating (once the other airline realised they could rip them off)
Another two know left flying all together.

I deal with hundreds of reference requests a year, those who wait it out have got the better jobs those who pay to work are still stuggling :suspect:

will he be sitting in the LHS of the 737 in 4 to 5 years? Not a hope in hell!

If he's good enough yes - however there are hundreds of weak pilots out there - more than good ones.

Re Jack Brown's :
Bit jealous actually. I can't be bothered with all the TSA bollocks though.

No TSA required for this, but you technically need a visa.

[TheBeak]

Tommy first off I don't have a problem with a true SSTR like Easy used to have. Second of all, I am a changed man, I think joining Ryanair is the best thing a newly qualified pilot can possibly do straight out of training. I genuinely do. Financially at the very least. If you have the opportunity then seize it, freeze it and own it. And I love flying, I love everything about it - I just hate the industry with a passion. But I really do love flying, how can one not relative to the alternative?

[Kirks gusset]

The implication is these schemes are only adopted by the young fly-hungry brigade, no so.. the last four guys we had for recurrent were all late 20 to mid 30s. They had re-mortgaged their houses and decided to take a change in career, many with very supportive wives or partners. Some smooth sales person has sold them a vision and is happy to wash their hands of these guys once they do the SSTR as the responsibility for the actual " Line training" timing is up to the "airline partners". Very often these guys sit around at their own expense waiting for sectors, once they do the OCC they can't really pull out without huge financial loss. As employed pilots we can't stamp this practice out as there are too many back handers and "special arrangements" in place, what we can do is try and force some honesty into the process, a contradiction I know!
The "traditional SSTR" with Easy, Ryan, Wizz, Jet2 etc is somewaht regulated and that is precisely why it is difficult to get on these schemes.

[Journey Man]

Yes paying for ur rating is wrong but like you said the flying hours are good with it, and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly!

This is like some sort of Monty Python sketch. I would contend the hours aren't great for the payment, and then you're sat jobless whilst the next guy in line does his hours, and then the next, ad infinitum... So yes, you do get to fly for a while, but then you sit with a ticking rating whilst everyone else piles in behind.

"and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly!"

Regardless of what you'd prefer to do, paying to fly isn't being paid to fly. In fact, disregard as I can't decipher this...


The type rating will be paid off soon if he is shrewd. If he performs well over the next 3 to 4 years he WILL be up for command. If FR are still doing well and he wants to stay at FR, he WILL stay.
If he shrugs his shoulders and says sod this and doesnt turn up to East Mids, Stockholm, or Amsterdam for the over priced(by my own admission) type rating, will he be sitting in the LHS of the 737 in 4 to 5 years? Not a hope in hell!
This is pure marketing, which no doubt probably nets you a lot of applicants. So, by taking the course all the applicants are guarantees LHS in three to five years? Have you got any statistics to back this up? If there are no statistics to show the career path of previous candidates, then I'd would take this insinuation with a bucket of salt. Furthermore, I'd be absolutely astounded by any credible evidence to back up this claim in the current economic climate.

It sounds like you work at FR and are obviously keen to see the herds of young hopefuls keep on coming. i can't blame you for that, but back up your statements...

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Journey man,
Can I ask you what evidence you have to back up YOUR statements?? I have been talking to RYR guys for the last year at least, and not one of them has complained of having to take a back seat after line training to make way for new cadets!
Yes you can expect a decrease in hours around christmas time, but which outfit doesn't do that?? Apart from that hours are good and strong .
"The hours arn't great for the payment" Well let me put it to you this way as you clearly don't have a clue what I was doing whilst waiting for my TR....... Working up to my knees in pig crap! For a nice 6 pounds an hour!!
Now you make your own decisions in life and let me tell you, this one was an easy one!!

[Journey Man]

OK - so, where do all the pilots go? The courses are oversubscribed, yet airlines are laying off pilots. That's a conundrum, right? So where are all these eager pilots paying for line training going? Do you think they're all being given a slap on the back and a "welcome to the team!" from the MD over tea and biscuits? :E

[SloppyJoe]

This is not a debate, it is a fact that if you pay for line training you are a total F:mad:ing idiot, you are paying to do the job you want, where will you go after? Where will the guy whose job you are doing go? They are starting command line training courses that you pay for!!!!! What The F:mad:ck. Seriously just spend about a minute thinking about what is going on here, what industry are you trying to get into? You want to skip ahead of the guys who have worked hard to get to where they are only to find someone skipping ahead of you in the same way once you have paid your money to pretend to be an airline pilot for a few months. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I have a job and this does not and will not effect me, for now anyway but it will trickle down through every part of this industry. I want to get paid well for what I do, I have worked hard to get where I am, I hate that some p:mad:icks do this, you are shooting yourself in the foot no question. If you cant get a job tough sh:mad:it, dont f:mad:ck it up for everyone else just so you can sit in an A320 with some crappy outfit and feel good about yourself for a few days until you realise because of all the **** and bad feelings you get from the guys whose mates jobs you are taking that you are being a complete moron. If you pay for line training you will not get a job at the end you will just put more people out of work.

[go around flaps15]

I am a pilot and not a statician. What I said in my previous post is based on what I have SEEN and based and what I can SEE. As regards command upgrades FR can't get enough captains at the moment.
Practically all of Skyeurope(captains) have arrived I believe, and I heard a good few Globespan(captains) crew are on their way too!

Marketing? :ugh: If Ryanair never employed another cadet again and kept the crew as is, do you think I would lose much sleep?


P.S. Most applicants do not get an assessment, and most who do, do not make it past the assessemt phase! Check the Ryanair interview and assessments thread and have a look at Allioths post( near the bottom) Hope it helps to BACK this particualr point up:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0165]

SloppyJoe are you talking about any company in particular??
I know that Easy will not guarentee winter work, and I also know that the Thomas Cook cadets taken on last summer have not been extended to the winter season. BUT the Ryanair guys do seem to keep flying after their TR and also through the hard times of winter. When I post it is always with regard to RYR I dont know anything about what the plans of Easy etc are, and if what your saying is right then yes its a harsh deal.
I decided on RYR because although we arn't actually signed to any contracts I did the back ground work to see what did actually happen after the Line Training and were we just dropped....... 100% said they kept flying and have continued to do so.
Journeyman, Whos courses are over subscribed?? Eagle jet?? RYR take who they need and are not affraid to say no to the majority that DO NOT GET THROUGH THE ASSESSMENT! They have delayed TR courses as they DON'T need new F/O's! You don't just pay, turn up and have a go!:ugh:

[Leezyjet]

Just read through this thread, and it seems to be getting a little confusing between paying for a TR and paying for the actual line training.

I think we can all accept that it is pretty certain that most people are now going to have to pay for their first T/R - this has been the norm for a while in one form or another - whether the airline stumped up the cash then bonded you on a reduced salary, or you stump up the cash yourself, either way you are still paying for it. However I would not condone paying for a t/r without a firm job offer at the end.

What I though this thread was about was what happened next, the line training. Totally agree that you should be PAID for this as you are then on revenue generating flights earning the airline $$$$$ therefore you should expect to be re-numerated yourself.

I thought with FR (who seem to be coming in for a lot of flack) that you paid for the t/r, but once line training, you actually got paid for that. I don't see anything wrong with that myself although I'd love to think that we would go back to the days of the airline paying for the t/r, but I doubt we will ever see those days again.

I started my training at 30, when times were amazingly good but due to taking my time and a few bad decisions along the way, I did not finish for another 4 years. That was in December last year just as it was all going wrong. Have I gone and thrown more money at it, to jump over people - NO. I'm sitting and waiting it out, working in my current job until things pick up keeping current as best I can. I've even refrained from applying to FR even though they are the only gig in town at the moment, as I don't agree with the ethics of paying to apply for a job or paying for your own uniform. The industry will pick up, but people really just need to accept that it is in a down turn and just be patient and WAIT.

It is amazing that there are 19-20 something pilots that can only see flying a jet as the be all and end all of flying a flying career. If you are serious about this as a career, then at 20 you will have 45 years flying ahead of you to make a career out of it so go and do something more interesting than sitting looking out of the window and pushing a few buttons every now and then - after a few years of doing that, it will just become another dull job. Do some REAL flying, is it really so urgent to PAY to jump the queue right now ?. Seems these guys in this situation are only doing it for the willy waving opportunities that it will bring bragging to girls down the pub or for their parents to brag about how proud they are of little Johnny down at the golf club.

Then, there is the problem to not to loose face.What my friends& family will say after I have spent all my money for nothing? Waiting or going on these ripp off schemes.

If ANYONE is worried about loosing face, then this is NOT the right career for you - just look into the recent history of many Far Eastern airlines and all the accidents that they have had due to not "loosing face". Who give's a flying f:mad:k what your friends think, if they are real friends they will be understanding and supportive as should your family and realise that times are not good at the moment, so it is a matter of sitting and waiting.

Sit and wait guys, sit and wait. Your time will come.

;)

[Stratobus]

So here in Greece we have new pilots that have been buying Type Rating, they are knowing that when they get 300 hrs they can maybe work at Olympic, because they are Greek. Problem is they cannot get 300 hrs! even local small athens based airlines that used to do this scheme have been stopped. In mean time high cost agency pilots, where Company is asking for min 1000hrs are working for more than local Captains. These agency guys will get pushed out when new pilots available, but there are lots on non-Greek A320 guys with 300hrs which Olympic will not take. So what is point? point is if you going to buy Line Training hours make sure you know where you go after your hours, in current climate, probably nowhere as most airlines allow any nationality pilot and local guys cannot get work. Beware.

[bigdaviet]

Sadly, some pilot hopefuls out there still think that some of these dodgy line training schemes will lead to their dreams. And all the pprune threads under the sun will do nothing to divert their gaze. There's going to be a lot of guys wasting a lot of money over the next couple of years on line training that will come to nothing. As there has been already.

But I would like to offer some optimism here. Eventually, finally, things will change and change slightly for the better. Eventually there will be enough stories of failure out there that people will realise that paying for line training from these dodgy companies does not = flash pilot, great flying job, great pay, the women dropping at your feet etc. Like most things, it will take a few years, but eventually, after much heartbreak, many remortgaged houses, many wasted daddy's cheques and many dusty 200 jet hour log books, the penny will drop and people will begin to realise that its a fools game to pay for any more training without the guarantee of a proper job.

Even the rich cannot keep paying to fly indefinitely! Even daddy will realise eventually that he's throwing his money down the drain!

When that time comes some balance will be restored and it will be a better industry for us all. Wannabes and 'Professional Pilots' alike!

Now I am a realist! Paying for initial training is here to stay. Paying for type ratings is here to stay. Maybe even some forms of paying for line training will stay. Daddy paying for the whole thing is here to stay. But wannabe pilots (and daddy,) will have to understand that there comes a time where you have to draw that line, and not fork out any more cash without a sensible chance of a job.

[wanabe2010]

Maybe even some forms of paying for line training will stay that's the problem. Line training means flying with passengers.

why an airline should pay a pilot when a pilot pay to fly with PAX?

please choose your option:

Line training

500 hours for 30k
1000h for 50k
2000h for 80k
3000h for 125k
VAT not included.

for over 3000h, please contact us. We have already a waiting list, so book asap.



Coming soon: Captain line training after our 3000h program.
(please don't call us, you will be informed very soon)

[Journey Man]

go around flaps15,

I admit, it wasn't very creative to ask for any credible evidence aside from heresay to back up your post, and if so I apologise - however I still feel your post reinforces the impression that the only way to achieve LHS in a 737 is through a pay-to-play scheme. No offence intended, only wanted to challenge your assertion of the above.


tommyg737,

Asking for some facts to back up a statement is not in itself making a statement. Secondly, a little bit of comprehension will go a long way...
Journeyman, Whos (sic) courses are over subscribed?? Eagle jet?? RYR take who they need and are not affraid (sic) to say no to the majority that DO NOT GET THROUGH THE ASSESSMENT! They have delayed TR courses as they DON'T need new F/O's! You don't just pay, turn up and have a go!:ugh:
Then that would be an example of a course being over subscribed. I love the last sentence! They are mean aren't they? :E

[go around flaps15]

No offense taken. I have made my point. It's(FR) the only gig in town at the moment, as regards paying for a rating(if thats what you are going to do). As for Eaglejet, Alteon, Global whatever its called........ Forget it.
Comparing FR with these schemes is not like for like. FR pay you after the type rating, these other schemes DO NOT.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

O god Jrny mn u hav 2 pul out da speling crd dnt ya!

"Asking for some facts to back up a statement is not in itself making a statement."
I agree, but I believe that I made my point clear in the following sentence of that post.
Right enough of this jibber jabber...... I am going sledging!!

[clanger32]

Leezyjet,
I almost had to double check to see I hadn't written your last post! My current situation is very, very similar...sitting it out in my old job waiting for the right opportunity. I will NOT go on a speculative line hours scheme. I very much hope a decent opportunity will come up, but confidence in that is waning, I'd have to admit...still I'd rather fly a desk for the rest of my life than spend another £30k without a job at the end of it.

SloppyJoe,
bit of an awkward one for me, as I agree with what you've written, but the aggressive, condescending tone and continual swearing actually undermines much of it, IMHO. Hopefully something to think on, because clearly you have something sensible to say.

My tuppence?
Personally I would be prepared to pay for an initial TR (as long as it had concrete job offer attached). This is because as someone mentioned earlier, I think it's extraordinarily naive to think that you'll get away with an absolutetly free TR ever again. That's not to say you WON'T get a free TR, they do exist, but ...well..."hens teeth" sums it up. Personally I'd treat getting a completely free TR as an absolute bonus.

I MIGHT even agree to not be paid (note the subtle difference between not being paid and paying for) for line training (as long as concrete job offer attached - although for me, this would have to be a very good job and one I'd look to hold for a long time).

What I will NOT do, is pay for a TR and/or LT on the basis that there may or may not be a job at the end. This is why (if you read my other postings) I did not move forward for the OAA/easyJet scheme.

That said...experienced pilots need to start realising that whining and pining for the "good old days of the self improver route" is pointless. I couldn't give a **** if you spent 20000 hours crop dusting to get where you are....my only concern -and you can probably take this as read for most newbies - is how do I get to where I want to be. That sounds very "me first"...well it is, because by refusing to take a job offer I change nothing...someone else will take that job instead. The endless whinging about how wonderful the old ways were, the insinuation that anyone that pays is somehow less of a pilot than someone who didn't buy their rating is both a ridiculous notion [there are both good and bad pilots that can and cannot afford a rating] and fosters a siege mentality which only serves to aide airline managers in dividing the workforce and subsequent futher reduction.

The above is not to say that the self improver route has gone, but the fact is, it is no longer the de facto route to the RHS. I would question the sanity of anyone...ANYONE who [wanting to fly commercial transport a/c ultimately] sets out to earn the pittance a newly qualified SEP FI earns for years and years, rather than go direct if the option exists. THIS is the problem, there is no point blaming people for not wanting to instruct, simply because there is another legal route open to them.

The way forward to stop these schemes - or one way at least - is to force the CAA to define a route to the RHS. As long as it's allowed by legislation to jump straight into the RHS of a MRJT with the base qualifications, then someone, somewhere will always seek to offer a route that jumps the queue. If that route is tightly defined (a la "min of 1500 hours tt to fly as crew on an A/c over 7.5 tonnes - purely as an example) then it controls the route to the RHS and levels the playing field. But then of course, someone would sell block bookings of 1500hrs, someone will have the money to pay and others that can't will whinge that "I had to do it by licking the chief pilots shoes for 12 years to earn enough..."

This is the new reality. Do not seek to blame others who find themselves caught in the maelstrom that it represents for being caught in a storm...as an industry it's up to all of us to build a shelter for them.
The new aviation world is all about trying to gain an edge, by fair means or foul. It's only our internal moral compasses (or Moral IRS in my case...:E) that dictate to what level we'll go to get that edge. However, for Moral compass swinging purposes, posts by G-SPOTs lost and Kirks Gusset are a good starting point.

[Journey Man]

The endless whinging about how wonderful the old ways were, the insinuation that anyone that pays is somehow less of a pilot than someone who didn't buy their rating is both a ridiculous notion [there are both good and bad pilots that can and cannot afford a rating]

Unfortunately as there is little selection in the majority of self 'sponsored' (why is it never just 'bought'?) training, be it CPL, MCC or TR, there will always be that insinuation. Many who favour buying a TR to jump ahead often make the argument that you still have to pass the exams, however getting your CPL or TR is merely a case of meeting the minimum requirements. Being selected and sponsored means that out of all the applicants, you were in the top XX%.

[Finals19]

I couldn't give a **** if you spent 20000 hours crop dusting to get where you are....my only concern -and you can probably take this as read for most newbies - is how do I get to where I want to be

I think the point is that other peoples actions actually define how you get to where you want to be. Your journey, and implicated costs are decided by the general direction that other people have taken and decide to take.

Its this singular attitude of succombing to the money grabbing / profiteering on SSTR that will make your journey very expensive indeed (does it not cost the airline (e.g. EZY) around 10K for a TR and yet an SSTR is charged 30K?)