Aerospace Aviation

[PittsS2A]

Just read the article on the Daily Tele website:-

Pilot pupils left grounded after flight school collapse | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/pilot-pupils-left-grounded-after-flight-school-collapse/story-e6freuy9-1225809561921)

Looks like Aerospace has also folded just like SFTC !

I did my GFPT there years ago, the quality has dropped significantly since then to the point of becoming a continental deli of sorts.

What a bunch of theives.

Looks like a lot of student visas will be cancelled very soon.

Pitts

[VH DSJ]

The article cited their collapse being due to the "current financial environment". That's understandable if the school didn't have any cash flow from student enrolments, but here we have students who are already enrolled and have already paid their course in advance! You really can't blame the global financial crisis for this! :rolleyes:

[The_Pharoah]

without any access to their records, one can only speculate. For any company (big or small), cashflow is the key. When you read that the majority of students had paid in advance (they should have read this forum first! :=), it probably infers that they didn't allocate their c/flows correctly. the tendency when an entity collects a lot of funds in advance, is to spend spend spend without regard to what the funds are actually for which, in this case, includes FUEL, unless you have someone who knows what they're doing.....apparently I don't think they did.

Pretty dodgy that the director is able to 'up and go' without due regard to the unpaid creditors from his past endeavour. C'mon ASIC...do your f###ing job. :*

[Horatio Leafblower]

Almost all of that article is about Barry Diamond and SFTC.

As far as Aerospace is concerned, back in the 1990s it seemed like an excellent school.

Several of my contemporaries trained there and they became excellent pilots.

Almost all of them are now in Qantas or Cathay - that may be good or bad but that was their goal and the standard of the training they received helped make their goal attainable.

Don't scoff or crow, the Charter business you work for or your flying school may be next to go under. :=

[Superfly Slick Dick]

Ive noticed after spending about 5.5 years working in GA, that it somehow seems to attract every last asshole.
What is it about planes and assholes?
I have seen so many people who have been ripped off, lied to, exploited and abused its staggering.
These people make it a constant **** fight. My friends and family who work in other industries are constantly amazed when they hear the stories of the soft white-underbelly of the necessary evil of GA..

Who knows? Maybe in 20 years, when all these pricks responsible have retired or died, GA may be a nice, decent industry to work in.

I wonder.:suspect:

[JCJ]

C'mon ASIC...do your f###ing job

ASIC is a toothless tiger, very little will be done about this unless there is a public outcry, and political pressure is applied. The law is quite tuff on things like trading whilst insolvent (which it sounds like the schools were), yet ASIC and the ATO do little to PUSH for a conviction of any kind.:*

The last company I worked for went under earlier this year (4 months after I walked away :ok:) with so much impropriety and dodgy transactions, creditors all pushed for ASIC and the ATO to investigate, evidence was presented, and yet nothing came of it, because it was too small for them, the ATO was owed $500k +++ and their response basically suggested they had bigger fish to fry.:ugh: They ignored the fact that there was a total debt of almost $2m.

Now the director is trading under a different name, even though he bankrupt!! Once again, no one seems to care, not even the administrator...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

This BS will keep going on until the authorities get tough and enforce the law, and unfortunately, people will continue to get burnt.

I really feel sorry for those students, unpaid workers, and the unpaid creditors. It can really significantly change a persons life.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

sure, that article mentions all the students affected and I do feel very sorry for them- because I myself was a former student at AA and know alot who were attending in the past few weeks.

It makes no mention of employees (instructors,admin etc) who have lost their jobs now- likely not paid the last few weeks/months salaries due to a lack of funds and are now jobless in what is an immensly tough climate in our industry even for the G1 guys.

Just thought id make it a bit fair and balanced as I knew some really decent instructors at both schools who have obviously like the students come out for the worse..

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Dodgy Operators will always be in GA as long as there are punters whose only priority is to get the cheapest flying as quick as possible.

The Dodgy Operators just set their prices noticably cheaper than everywhere else and sit back and wait for suckers to part with $60k+ upfront.

I'm not really blaming the victims here but in 30 years of GA ive seen this happen so many times......

The old saying goes: "If it's too good to be true than it usually is", comes to mind.

Didn't any of the students ever ask themselves why the prices were so much lower than the competition?.

Were the staff totally 100% ignorant of how the school was run - or did they keep the blinkers on?....

Incredibly, CASA will again issue this person an AOC and ASIC will allow the company to run.

Maybe i'm being too hard on CASA - not their job..

Every company's costs are about the same: Fuel, landing fees, Insurance etc., So when a company sets prices lower than the others, something has to give. Eventually the company becomes a 'ponzi' type operation, kept running only on new students large deposits. As soon as student numbers slow down, the money tree dies and the company folds.

The steady operators are still in business, have been for many years and hopefully will continue to do so.

I don't know the owners of SFTC or AA but it sounds like one of the ex-owners is again in business and (believe me!) - will again set the cheapest prices and sit back while suckers throw money his way.

Anyone who has the urge to hand over life savings (theirs or their parent's) - please limit payments to $5k - $10k only. -It doesn't hurt as much

[40Deg STH]

RFG,

Great advice for all the new pilots. I agree, never hand over lump sums to offers of "Airline training", unless its Cathay, Qantas, BA etc and employment contract is signed. You will be offered all types of incentives but history has always proven that upfront payment only helps the operator and you put yourself in a HIGH risk position.
RFG knows what he talking about.
Well said RFG.:ok:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Who knows? Maybe in 20 years, when all these pricks responsible have retired or died, GA may be a nice, decent industry to work in.

No these guys are everywhere. The difference is, in most industries you are either qualified or you aren't.

This doesn't relate to Aerospace or SFTC btw but the only qualification you need in Aviation is money and lots of it. Enthusiasm can only go so far in making up for a lack of qualifications, aviation and business accumen.

There is a qualification for the enthusiasts however: we have a "Private Pilot Licence" which allows self-deluding amatuers and enthusiasts to believe they have what it takes to make a living from the business. If they have enough money they might even have a Commercial Pilots Licence, although often you'll hear them admit "Ive never used it".

If you have a First Aid ticket you can't hire 5 newly graduated doctors and start a doctor's surgery.

Incredibly, CASA will again issue this person an AOC and ASIC will allow the company to run.

Ahh but I met an aircraft valuer yesterday and he tells me there ain't no way the administrators are gonna allow that :=

Some very cheap training aircraft coming onto the market early in the new year. 3 years ago (in the middle of the Indian Gold Rush) you would pay $55k for a good C152 - now with SFTC and Aerospace's fleets that is going to be closer to $20k :ooh:

[want2goflying]

Horn Blower,

You seem to be talking out your butt and these newbies lap your rubbish up.:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad:

[Capt Fathom]

and these newbies lap your rubbish up

Indeed they do ! :E

[Snatch]

...since it's your first post and you're a worldly 19 years of age I'm going to cut you some slack and suggest some of these contributors have a lot more experience than you.

[want2goflying]

I'm more than 19 and been in the industry for quite some so you can stick your slack where the sun don't shine. I am just so sick of reading so many "opinions" and ill informed ones at that. There are some shonky operators no doubt, but don't broad brush everyone. What do you know about either of these situations? When you are slightly more informed, get back to me.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I'm more than 19 and been in the industry for quite some (time)

Oh well... that's your credibility and experience established then :rolleyes:

[Rojer Wilco]

Quote: Horatio Leafblower

If you have a First Aid ticket you can't hire 5 newly graduated doctors and start a doctor's surgery.


LOL Sure you can! You wouldn't even need a first aid certificate. So long as your doctors were appropriately qualified and your shiny new medical practice was properly insured, you can employ as many doctors as you like to treat patients.

Aviation is much more heavily regulated than industries in the 'real world'.

Seriously though, does anyone know where the fleets are being sold up or who the administrators are? Maybe there's some bargains to be had...

[Atlas Shrugged]

Some very cheap training aircraft coming onto the market early in the new year. 3 years ago (in the middle of the Indian Gold Rush) you would pay $55k for a good C152 - now with SFTC and Aerospace's fleets that is going to be closer to $20k

Wasn't the SFTC "fleet" leased?

When they went tits up the first time all of the Warriors were returned to GFS in Melbourne, I think it was, and the Arrows all went back to their owners.

[Superfly Slick Dick]

Nope, the Liberty fleet was purchased by SFTC.
That was probably one of the many factors that contributed to the collapse.
It appears that unfortunately some very bad management decisions were made in that company.
Its a real good idea to buy 12 new aircraft in one go, at $240 000 a piece..:confused:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Dunno.

There was a valuer from an auction house in my part of the world on Tuesday am and he had a list of Liberties, C152s and some C172s to go through.

The C152s have been here for more than 12 months, the bill for their last 100 hourly never got paid and so... *shrug*

[albatros19]

any idea where n how to buy those STFC or AA planes at 20k or any amount?? who to contact?? i'd love to hv one of the C172 or Arrow....any pointers??

[Rojer Wilco]

Quote: Cynical Pilot

Seemingly only in the aviation aspects. When was the last time an aviation company was investigated by ASIC et al?

ASIC's role is to enforce and regulate company and financial services laws to protect Australian consumers, investors and creditors. They only get involved when auditors or administrators find evidence that the Corporations Act, Australian Securities and Investments Commission Act or Insurance Contracts Act have been breached.

In all but a few insolvencies, there are no such breaches. Poor management in itself, no matter how ridiculous isn't considered a breach of law, and so AISC has no role to play in 90% of company wind-ups.

Occassionally, we do hear of ASIC sticking their noses into aviation companies that aren't even under administration, because of recommendations from auditors or the ATO. Good examples of ASIC placing aviation companies under involuntary admin in this way over the last few years include Jetcraft Aviation and Flightline Aviation.

The only reason Jetcraft ever got dropped in it was because of financial problems caused by the unexpected grounding of two of its aircraft and a long running dispute with a major customer.

So ask yourself, when you've already got genuine business trouble like that, do you need ASIC breathing down the back of your neck while they lube up?

ASIC pay the same attention to GA that everyone else gets. Don't wish for an increase in their attention!

PS - Who's your et al?

[youbuet]

What is happening at these flying schools , are they going to be completely shut down or are they seeking new owners. Are they doing any flying at the moment ?

[PA39]

S Davis..........Rude, crude, and disrespectful.

[RenegadeMan]

Hymans Asset Management - Auctions (http://hymans.com.au/auctions/template.asp?a=/auctions/auction-1978.auc)

[Atlas Shrugged]

Hey Buster, you runnin' a sideline??

[rase_raptor]

Any Indian students out there please let us get together and get all our money back and finish off our CPL training else where. Yes I m talking about REFUNDS FROM AEROSPACE and this is not a joke. what happened last year was not the first time. similar issues were faced by students from a long time i guess since early 2000.

And I m also a victim of the same. But with dedication I got my work done. I have a lot of respect for the present batches who are facing trouble, but i salute those who were brave enough to take them to task. But guys and gals we cant give up here we came here for a purpose and that is EARNING OUR WINGS - CPL AND CIR.

So what are u all waiting for lets do some thing about it. I guess the first thing is to get together and discuss issues of refunding and how we all can finish our training else where.

VTAB is not the point here we can get permission from the govt. to finish our training and extend our visas. I wonder who thinks that the visas are getting cancelled???? Yes if u all are not doing waht u came for then surely this will happen.

I have faced it , u are facing it, i got out of it, now i want to help all to get out of it. HAPPY LANDINGS and CHEERS MATE.

[GADRIVR]

Sigh...the usual emotional Indian clarion call to right a wrong or avenge an injustice along Bollywood lines doesn't really apply here Raptor my lad.
The reason that Aerospace is in administration is that the business in its present form is not sustainable. It went into voluntary administration!
That would infer that in fact...the money belonging to these students is long gone.
Rather than raise a rabble, contact the administrating firm itself through calling Aerospace direct.
Sad I know.........DON'T PAY UPFRONT!!!!!!:ugh:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

R. Raptor:

Go for it Son.

Grab all your colleagues together (ex-SFTC as well) and make as much noise as you can.

However, as unsecured creditors, don't hold onto any unrealistic chances of getting a full refund.

Just as important:

Pass the word to wanna-be Pilots back home.

Why is there a repeat cycle of Indian Students getting ripped off??.

- CHEAPEST is not often the best or safest option.

- Avoid paying all fees upfront.



- Did I mention beware of Cheap courses.....


Good Luck.

[rase_raptor]

Thanks a lot for the three replies I got.

Well ........u have to land somewhere when u tkof ........so where that place/situation is is in ur hands. keep up for green pastures in the future............but dont forget ..........we cant LAND on them SAFELY. :ok:and bravo to all those who made it:)

HAPPY LANDINGS.