Landing After Dark

[ChippyChop]

Can anyone confirm if it is legal to land in a non night rated helicopter after the end of legal daylight?

Cheers
Chippy

[Gordy]

Nope---I think you have to keep flying till it gets light again. :eek:

[CityofFlight]

I don't care what ya say, that there was funny. :p :D:D

[Solar]

In flight refueling?

[cyclic flare]

Its OK as long as no one sees you. Its best at night aswell less likely to be seen.

Dont try it in the the day you will get caught.

[Whirlygig]

How very existensial of you cyclic flare :}

Won't it depend on how powerful your torch is?

Cheers

Whirls

[Canuck Guy]

Can anyone confirm if it is legal to land in a non night rated helicopter after the end of legal daylight?

Confucius says No

[Hughes500]

Thought that was rather obvious really, the clue being a non night rated helicopter, or am i getting too old to see it ( oh yes its dark so I wouldnt see it)

[John R81]

As the prohibition relates to "flight" then the landing would mark the end of the prohibited activity. (marking it possibly with loud noises and (potentially) fire.) The approach and everything up to "skids down" would be illegal, but once "skids down" you are no in flight and no longer perpetrating an illegal act.

Hope that clarifies things.

[ChippyChop]

Well old Chippy can confirm a very senior UK chief pilot kept flying for 30 mins after dark in a non night rated machine and landed at an airport on the north side, he told his student that it was legal 'cos "it was a privilege of licence". But could only be for 30 mins maximum.

I told the student I had never heard of such a privilege, I guess student will now expect to land 30 mins after dark all the time, if he asks me to be his safety pilot, I certainly won't be agreeing to it, of course unless we just keep flying till it gets light again!!

Thanks for the comedy
Chippy

[g-mady]

a couple of LED lenser torches would be just as good as many landing lights :}

MADY

[Helinut]

All sounds rather mysterious. We aren't confusing night and sunset are we? The two being separated by 30 minutes, as mentioned above.

Most "senior chief pilots" would know the law and operate by it, especially if they were quoting it.

[Flaxton Flyer]

"As the prohibition relates to "flight" then the landing would mark the end of the prohibited activity. (marking it possibly with loud noises and (potentially) fire.) The approach and everything up to "skids down" would be illegal, but once "skids down" you are no in flight and no longer perpetrating an illegal act"

If we want to be really accurate, you are still officially "in flight" until the rotors have stopped. :ok:

[ChippyChop]

Helinut,

Can you please clarify? As I said in my first post, they landed 30 mins after the "end of legal daylight" (sunset) So are you saying you can continue to fly 30 mins after that and it is not considered night?

Cheers
Chippy

[JimBall]

CC: We're all confused with your terminology. "Sunset" is an official expression with a set time in the tables. "Day" ends 30 mins after sunset and becomes "night".

Night ends 30 mins before sunrise - and day begins at that point.

Anyway, who cares what the guy did ?

[ChippyChop]

Thanks JimBall you have clarified the matter. I personally don't give a rats a about what he did I just want my friend to know what is legal and what is not, 'cos as sure as sh..t him being a PPL someone else will dump a load of cr..p on him if he does the slightest thing wrong. So really what he should have been told was what you posted.

Cheers again
Chippy

[[email protected]]

Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon, considered unobstructed relative to the location of interest. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface.

Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient, under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight, artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor activities. Complete darkness, however, ends sometime prior to the beginning of morning civil twilight and begins sometime after the end of evening civil twilight.

Nautical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening, when the center of the sun is geometrically 12 degrees below the horizon. At the beginning or end of nautical twilight, under good atmospheric conditions and in the absence of other illumination, general outlines of ground objects may be distinguishable, but detailed outdoor operations are not possible, and the horizon is indistinct.

Astronomical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 18 degrees below the horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the Sun does not contribute to sky illumination; for a considerable interval after the beginning of morning twilight and before the end of evening twilight, sky illumination is so faint that it is practically imperceptible.

[JimBall]

And where would the world be without Wiki ?

[ChippyChop]

Errrr thanks Crab is what you are saying confirm the 30 mins after sunset and before sunrise or not?

Confused Chippy

[Winnie]

Dytime is considered to be "from the beginning of morning civil twilight, to the end of evening civil twilight". Thus you can deduce that you are technically allowed to use the privileges of your NON-NIGHT rated license to fly for 30 minutes after sunset. after 31 minutes you are conisdered to be flying at night and NOT legal...

Cheers
H.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

JimB, Crab's little litany is what has been taught in the UK mil since the late 1980s and therefore predates Wiki(s) by some considerable margin. :cool:

[[email protected]]

I just forgot the last bit of information helpfully supplied by Winnie to make it answer Chippy's question:)

[perfrej]

In Sweden, with the super long dusks and dawns, night, for flight purposes, is defined as the point where you cannot properly make out a silhoutte from a certain distance. I don't remember the exact figures, but it makes sense to me. 30 minutes after sundown could be just as light as AT sundown, and it may never get dark enough to not make a flight under daylight conditions.

[Dual ground]

@ perfrej

Not an issue at the moment that's for sure.... What does daylight look like?

[Canuck Guy]

In Sweden, with the super long dusks and dawns, night, for flight purposes, is defined as the point where you cannot properly make out a silhoutte from a certain distance. I don't remember the exact figures, but it makes sense to me. 30 minutes after sundown could be just as light as AT sundown, and it may never get dark enough to not make a flight under daylight conditions.

Interesting way to go about it.

Personally I always found it most challenging to fly at dusk. Not enough light, and not dark enough for your eyes to adjust. Everything is just kinda flat. Hate it.

[kevin_mayes]

Crab...

Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the horizon.

So this would be different for a chap, say on top of a hill then, or at say 1500 feet as the horizon would be further away?

Kevin.

[Titus Frisbee]

c'mon lads and lassies the question was "after end of legal daylight". What happened to VFR starts at sunrise and finishes at sunset except during the summer months (not daylight saving time )when vfr starts 30 minutes before sunrise and ends 30 minutes after sunset, so privilege of license my backside. perhaps this is a good example of an instructor being a smartass and giving the wrong impression to a gullible student.

[Heliport]

Titus Frisbeeperhaps this is a good example of an instructor being a smartass and giving the wrong impression to a gullible student

Or more likely a student misunderstanding what the instructor said.

[Torquetalk]

So this would be different for a chap, say on top of a hill then, or at say 1500 feet as the horizon would be further away?

If you were in a steep valley the horizon would be very near. If on top of a hill it will be much further away (unless obscured by a bigger hill). Whilst the 6 degrees definition looks technical it has more practical meaning than at first appears. A marginal twighlight landing on top of the hill may be highly dangerous in the valley below due to lack of available light

TT

[EESDL]

Well done to crew of S-92 and team inlvolved - now that's an aircraft suitably equipped to fly at night!

Island baby and mum in helicopter mercy flight to hospital - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/12/14/island-baby-and-mum-in-helicopter-mercy-flight-to-hospital-86908-21896350/)

Island baby and mum in helicopter mercy flight to hospital

Dec 14 2009 (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/12/14/) By Lachlan Mackinnon
A FOUR-MONTH-OLD baby was airlifted to hospital yesterday from the Hebridean island of Rum.
The Stornoway Coastguard helicopter took off from the isle at 3.41am, carrying the little boy and his worried mum.
The drama began just after 1am when the alarm was raised.
Medics were told that the baby was having trouble breathing and needed an urgent airlift.
The crew of the Coastguard's Sikorsky S-92 helicopter was scrambled. They took off from Lewis for the flight south and touched down on Rum at 2.14am.
The copter flew the baby to Stornoway Airport, where the sick child was transferred to a waiting ambulance for the short drive to Western Isles Hospital.
A spokesman for the hospital described the youngster's condition as "satisfactory" last night.
Rum, known as the Forbidden Isle, sits a few miles off the coast of Skye. The island has a population of just 39.
In March, local people took legal control of part of the island, which is owned and operated by Scottish Natural Heritage, after the issue was put to a vote in January.
The school on Rum has only four pupils, with two more youngsters in nursery.

[Exo.]

Differences in twilight hours based on latitude I imagine resulted in the slightly odd 30 minutes rule.

Check your national regs for deviations from ICAO!

[Winnie]

Local horizon also has nothing to do with it, the wording uses "apparent horizon" which is what counts. So IF the ground was flat where you are, when the center of the suns disk is 6 degrees below the "APPARENT" horizon etc.

AS a scandihooligan myself, born WELL above 66 deg 33 min north, I know about Midnight sun. So if the sun is NOT 6 degrees below the horizon, well then it is not night. It is that black and white. It can be dusk for 6 hours, but if the disk is less than 6 degrees below the horiz. well then it is not night...

Simple really. Jeppesen in the J-aid has a nice table for calculating sunset and sunrise from lat, gives UTC, and also local time to the minute by exact degree long.

Cheers
H.

[nigelh]

Titus .... What happened to VFR starts at sunrise and finishes at sunset except during the summer months (not daylight saving time )when vfr starts 30 minutes before sunrise and ends 30 minutes after sunset,...... so you are saying there is no 30 min after sunset rule at this time of year ??
Anyway all this talk would be irrelevant with an FAA licence ( so long as the heli is cleared for night ) Dont start getting into NVG talk with the likes of Crab though , because only top gun mil types are capable of using them :rolleyes:

[EESDL]

Nigelh, that's only because they had to wear them.
Who in their right mind would spend the majority of the Winter months with 2 cathode tubes strapped smack infront of your eyes banging photons off your retina.....
Makes me cringe to hear the willingness of some to bugger-up their eyes so willingly

[ShyTorque]

Who did it willingly? We had to, and before you say "You shouldn't have joined then", they didn't have such things as NVG when I joined. Or AR5 aircrew respirators...

NVGs also seem to bu&&er up your neck, btw. Mine hurts every day. :}

[[email protected]]

EESDL - if you are afraid of photons reaching your retinas, I suggest you keep your eyed firmly closed at all times:)

[EESDL]

...........................................who said that?