A surreal lack of airmanship

[Weetbix]

Heard this on Jabiru CTAF a few weeks ago and was mortified:

'XXX, Jabiru Ground.'

*A long pause*

'XXX, this is Jabiru Ground, how do you read?'

*A further long pause, before, more exasperatedly then before*

'XXX, Jabiru Ground!'

'Jabiru Ground, XXX, Go ahead.'

'You've been parked in front of the fuel bowser with the engines running for ages, three charters have already departed and it's made a mess of everything. Can you move?'

*To my eternal shock and amazement I hear the following*

'XXX, I was waiting for an IFR clearance. Too bad.'

Some people should be refused licenses on the basis of a lack of common decency and any modicum of airmanship. I'd forgotten that some drivers out there think they are God's gift. :yuk:

[Ultralights]

nothing new sadly, happened quite regularly at YHOX in the day, though most would just sit there and do their preflight and runups! :ugh:

[senshi]

Were they not aware they could have departed on a broadcast basis..??? (Jeppo's ATC, AU717, unless they couldn't satisfy the requirements of course)

S

[tobzalp]

So this really happened or not? Well OCTA at JAB.

[the air up there]

In years past that lack of airmanship and respect for other pilots would have been knocked out of a pilot at the 'single' stage of their career. Unfortunately this arrogance has been allowed to build as the more experienced twin drivers that were mentors to the single drivers were rapidly sucked up into the airlines.

As a result of this rapid progression many years of airmanship that where built up and passed along by these mentors to the younger pilots was lost, and the drivers now in the twins think that they know all. Then again, they must, they only did 600hrs in a 210 before they got put into their first twin. Everyone before them had been doing 1500+hrs before they got their chance to look at a baron, let alone those high performance pa31's and c402's.

[the air up there]

So this really happened or not?

I have been assured that it did indeed occur at the said location.

[Di_Vosh]

Not suprised to hear that at all.

In Mildura last year I heard this conversation (IIRC) between two helicopters:

AAA: "BBB on Mildura CTAF, this is AAA. Are you going to be long at the fuel bowser?"

(BBB had finished refuelling and was "turning and burning", but not in a hurry to go anywhere)

BBB: "We'll just be here for a few minutes more"
AAA: "Well, can you move it please?"
BBB: "I'll just be here a few minutes more"
AAA: "I need to refuel for a charter"
BBB: "Good for you!"

BBB moved along around 5 minutes later.

Just another example of "Modern selfishness" where "whatever I'm doing right now is always going to be more important than whatever everybody else is doing".

DIVOSH :sad:

[havick]

DiVosh.. isnt the jet fuel at mildura a truck?

[longassgrass]

Pity you won t let on what the callsign was , then perhaps a dose of public humil would remind Capt D/a-- to pick his act up or get his boss on his tail ....lol .:)

I m figuring it was a PA 31 or similiar BIG !!! plane so close to Darwin .

Either he s new and got no spare capacity to answer an unexpected call ,

or he s a Capt D/Ass whose arrogance and exalted position of flying two engines instead of one ,tells him he doesn t have to regard others .

I reckon it could be either or both , and prob from the less reputable side of the GA area ,
Heard of a DN operator with half a dozen BIG !! planes ,whose CP only just got his IFR and has minimal time and now getting all his boys to fly IFR ,to get their experience up before the wet hits ........:hmm:

[betaman]

'XXX, I was waiting for an IFR clearance. Too bad.'



What is an "IFR clearance" anyway?

If I have submitted an IFR flight plan then do I need ATC permission to fly IFR? What happened to the airways clearance when departing in CTA & giving taxi report "IFR" to FS to get IFR traffic OCTA.

Have they lowered the steps over YJAB or has Bob lashed out & put a tower there recently. Would have prefered some decent lights instead of those battery powered jobbies.:ugh:

Sounds like a gen Yer with out a clue (no surprises there) or bull**** artist trying to piss Bob off (which wouldn't be difficult). That is if he hasn't retired.;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

...is this really "surreal" - ie: dream-like - or is it merely strange, bizzare or disappointing?

So the guy is a f$%&wit... so what, hardly Robinson Crusoe :rolleyes:

[the air up there]

It's not the first time pilots from that company have pissed people of out there with there "I'm IFR, im in a bigger plane, get the :mad: outta my way, I'll do whatever I want."

[eternity]

It should be remembered that aviation attracts people from all walks of life - with all different attitudes and personalities.

It is nice to think that in our "professional" world people would contain sufficient situational awareness and courtesy, but just like on the road, in an accounting firm or a servo, etc, there will always be people who are selfish and feel that they are more important

If these wankers piss you off enough then write a letter to their CP mentioning what happened.

Maybe they will learn something.
Maybe they won't.

If they don't, and are naturally just selfish, then dont worry about it!!

Every dog has their day......



On a different note, if your IFR deptarting from an OCTA aerdrome you of course dont need a clearance (unless your going to Class A, then you just need it before you get there).
Many times I have been at a community airstrip and departed without a taxi call becaseu HF is having another bad day, with the intention of contacting CN once airborne. Perfectly fine, as long as you remember that without the taxi call nobody knows you have departed so if you spud it in after take off nobodys going to come looking for you.....



Eternity.

[betaman]

Many times I have been at a community airstrip and departed without a taxi call becaseu HF is having another bad day.

What ever happened to a broadcast on VHF...& taxi report on HF (I haven't done the VFR thing for a good many years, thought it was a requirement for VFR charter, unless you have VHF comms with an agent etc has it changed?)

Spent many a time departing community airstrips always broadcast a taxi call on VHF prior to HF requesting trafffic, when IFR, or am I missing something?

[the air up there]

Yea, at least something on VHF (CTAF), someone will hear that. Possibly me on short final. Nothing worse than an aircraft taxing onto the runway from behind the trees with out broadcasting, then having to power up and go around.

[Douche]

Yea, at least something on VHF (CTAF), someone will hear that


I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to CTAF calls, but Centre.

[manymak]

On a different note, if your IFR deptarting from an OCTA aerdrome you of course dont need a clearance (unless your going to Class A, then you just need it before you get there).
Many times I have been at a community airstrip and departed without a taxi call becaseu HF is having another bad day, with the intention of contacting CN once airborne. Perfectly fine, as long as you remember that without the taxi call nobody knows you have departed so if you spud it in after take off nobodys going to come looking for you.....

In which case you should file a SARTIME for departure :)

[twodogsflying]

The term "PILOT" is an oxymoron.

Every attribute that per person possesses that makes them a good PILOT is the exact same attributes that you would not employ then to do anything!
:uhoh:

[Fonz121]

surreal? Were you stoned or something?

[mattyj]

As usual..nothing to do with airmanship..just a ******** in a plane..happens at the traffic lights all the time..its not called carmanship there.

[Di_Vosh]

Havick

DiVosh.. isnt the jet fuel at mildura a truck?

Yes, Ken and (Was Neal but now Fitzy) do the jet fuel via the truck. Don't know if there is or was Jet fuel bowser.

I know crap all about helicopters mate, they could have been pistons for all I know. Just passing on what I heard on the CTAF.

DIVOSH!

[Bla Bla Bla]

I'm not from Oz but I'm here working for a charter company at the moment and it has to be said that Oz seems to have a huge amount of arrogant tossers in the GA sector. I have worked in many countries but for some reason it just seems that there is a disproportionate amount of generally young pilots who are rude and self important with there head so far up there own arse they are nearly inside out.

Its a shame for the good guys and girls in Oz who get tarred with the same brush. Can't wait leave the big hot island, flights booked.

[YoDawg]

it has to be said that Oz seems to have a huge amount of arrogant tossers in the GA sector.

Well GA has always been a training ground for the airlines... :}

[Howard Hughes]

I have worked in many countries but for some reason it just seems that there is a disproportionate amount of generally young pilots who are rude and self important with there head so far up there own arse they are nearly inside out.

In other countries these guys are recruited straight to the airlines!;)

[Bla Bla Bla]

No in other countries where I have worked you also need at least 2000hrs to go for airlines, they are just not as arrogent and self important.

[Fonz121]

Those countries must be awesome!!! Where are they?

[multime]

Recently had a C402 from a certain Goldfields company in kalgoorlie ??, park infront of me, downwind then fill my aircraft full of dust and stones, then proceeded to shutdown while we were warming up.
Plenty of room, and no reason to park there.
When i fronted him he showed no sign of an apology or professionalism.
Theres one born every minute.:ugh:
M

[Worrals in the wilds]

My personal favourite was a charter helicopter that plonked on the RFDS aeromed bay. Bad enough, but to make it worse an arriving RFDS med one was taxiing for the bay and the waiting (blocked) ambulance. When the SMC told the chopper to move (in no uncertain terms) the response was something like 'our pax are just disembarking, we'll only be a minute..." Some anonymous voice on frequency asked them if they parked in wheelchair zones. I guess they probably do. :ugh:

Some people are just way too important for their own good.

[aileron_69]

So who is the Broome pilot who enjoyed tying down on my tiedowns a few weeks back in Fitzroy Crossing despite the road cones marking the site as a survey calibration site? Its not like there is a shortage of parking there. Did they think the airport manager had prepared that spot especially for their arrival??
Oh well, I think I might have had the last laugh there.

[j3pipercub]

Simple solution Aileron. Go to local hardware store and buy appropriate lengths of hardened chain and locks.

When you arrive home and find your tie downs and all other taken by visiting CPL hour builders/ toolish charter pilots

1 Put chains and locks to appropriate use.
2 Attach phone number to chains.
3 Make sure you take your time getting back out to the airport to unlock said chains once you receive phone call.
4 Word gets around soon enough and TADA, unmolested parking space, tie downs and chocks.
5 Call their CFI/CP after they're airborne.

j3

[PyroTek]

see J3, on long trips, most CPL hour builders (like myself) don't know how the airport works and tend to only visit once.. I tend to call the airport and ask them what the parking conditions are like up to a week beforehand.

Fortunately, where I fly, most people are very nice and generous!:ok:
A guy filling up his C206 even let me fill up my 20L jerry can for the J-3 I was flying before him, even when he arrived first!

:ok:Pyro.

[AerobaticArcher]

Aileron 69, I'm sure you've made a few 'airmanship' mistakes in your career. I don't think parking your aircraft nose to nose with the parked aircraft, leaving a childish, sarcastic note, or posting photos of your parking on facebook was the right thing to do.

A simple phone call would have solved all issues.

[eternity]

Betaman & the air up there,


As Douche pointed out I was not referring to the standard (and required) CTAF calls.
They (obviously) are always made regardless of the flight rules you are operating under.
See, in the big bad scary bush, Centre usually can't hear you when your on the ground, hence the use of HF for your IFR taxi call.
To suggest that I would blast around the bush using only my HF and yelling "Yee-Haa!!" is borderline insulting.



Manymak,

Thanks for the tip about the IFR sartime for departure. But when you are operating charter flights (especially out of aboriginal communities) the actual time of departure plus or minus an hour is always a wild guess. If you compound that with the fact that the airstrip is usually quite a few miles from any sort of telephone simply increases the difficulty.
We do however, insist that the troopie (who dropped off or picked up the passengers) DOES wait after you have departed, which in turn gives you time to make contact with ATC before the drive off.
At night, however dept. SARTIME's are always used when departing from remote strips.

But thanks to all three of you for the comments.


Eternity.

[the air up there]

Eternity, if you are flying to remote aboriginal communities, try a next G phone. Only place I've been in the Top End that doesn't have next G service is Croker Island.

Plus, most of the people out there won't mind you using the phone to make a quick call to revise departure time or notify the company your early/late.

[longassgrass]

Dear Up In The Air,

Who was the Capt Pratzski involved in the Jabiru affair ,cause DN has 200 odd Capt Perfects who would like to give that

[aileron_69]

Aileron 69, I'm sure you've made a few 'airmanship' mistakes in your career. I don't think parking your aircraft nose to nose with the parked aircraft, leaving a childish, sarcastic note, or posting photos of your parking on facebook was the right thing to do.

A simple phone call would have solved all issues


I sure have, but I always make sure I ask to use someones tiedowns before parking there. Its usually pretty obvious that an aircraft will be returning if they have left ropes behind. Maybe if said Broome pilot had turned Broome pilot's brain on no phonecalls would be needed?:E

[russianthru_thesky]

Wait, wait, let me guess, "AerobaticArcher" flys out of Broome?? :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

I always found the Broome pilots lacking in common sense!

Giving en-route reports VFR on Kimberley CTAF, Carrying jerry can of fuel on a charter in the baggage compartment when fuel was available at the destination......... I could go on and on!

[Captain Sand Dune]

Surreal (adjective);
Bizarre
Weirdly unfamiliar, distorted, or disturbing, like the experiences in a dream or the objects or experiences depicted in surrealism

Maybe the adjective “surreal” doesn’t apply here. Maybe “shocking”, “amazing”, or “woeful” would be more appropriate. Now that I’ve got that out of my system……..

Was lucky enough to be at Temora last weekend. Witnessed a bozo in a Warrior (didn’t get the rego unfortunately….for him!) disrupt the air show proceedings despite the NOTAM describing the temporary restricted area in place for said air show. A couple of the air show people had a rather interesting discussion with said bozo. Undeterred however, said bozo then leapt in his mighty Warrior which was parked with it’s tail pointing to one of our aircraft and proceeded to give it fistful of power to get it moving. He was clearly oblivious to the effect this was having, i.e. causing the rudder of the parked aircraft behind it to be buffeted significantly.

That’s just the latest example I have seen, and sadly I conclude that there will be many more.

I must also (sadly) agree with Bla3 to an extent. I know there are thoroughly professional operators and nice people in GA, however the tossers are becoming more noticeable. And isn’t this just representative of what’s happening in society as a whole?

[GADRIVR]

"I know there are thoroughly professional operators and nice people in GA, however the tossers are becoming more noticeable. And isn’t this just representative of what’s happening in society as a whole?"

Nope......you're probably noticing it out there as your experience and wisdom levels increase.
Just a thought.:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Leaving tie-down ropes/chainschocks in a place on a general tie-down line DOES NOT RESERVE the spot for the owner of said ropes/chains/chocks!

If you want to reserve a tie-down spot then make appropriate arrangements with the aerodrome operator and pay for a reserved parking spot.


Simple solution Aileron. Go to local hardware store and buy appropriate lengths of hardened chain and locks.
When you arrive home and find your tie downs and all other taken by visiting CPL hour builders/ toolish charter pilots
1 Put chains and locks to appropriate use.
2 Attach phone number to chains.
3 Make sure you take your time getting back out to the airport to unlock said chains once you receive phone call.
4 Word gets around soon enough and TADA, unmolested parking space, tie downs and chocks.
5 Call their CFI/CP after they're airborne.


Do that to my aeroplane and I will initiate appropriate legal action. I think you will find that interfering with an aircraft is regarded as a serious offence.

Dr :8

[The Green Goblin]

I've heard stories about you forky getting a tad worked up when someone parked in front of your hanger :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I've heard stories about you forky getting a tad worked up when someone parked in front of your hanger

You betcha! I pay a substantial chunk of change to park my aeroplane in a hangar, and therefore unrestricted access to and from the hangar is a right.

Its not the same as leaving your tie-down ropes on a parking position to "hold" your spot on a free access tie-down line or parking spot.

Dr :8

[Mach E Avelli]

Sabotaging an aircraft is certainly a crime. Interfering in such a way as to prevent movement of an aircraft may possibly be legal. For example, non-payment of fees could warrant an aircraft being chained and padlocked in the same way a car can be wheel-clamped. I imagine that these days you would have to get the bailiff involved to do that. But blocking an aircraft with another, or with a vehicle etc, seems perfectly reasonable if someone has been a ********. Dickheads must be punished at every opportunity.....
I know of one case where a propeller was removed from an aircraft by a licensed engineer and not returned to the owner until the staff were paid money owing. Whether or not that was 'interfering' with an aircraft is a moot point, but the alternative of baseball bats in the staff carpark was loudly debated at the time. Legal action was the last thing on the employer's mind - he needed the revenue from the aeroplane to pay off other creditors, so somehow dredged up the missing wages. The engineer of course documented the removal and eventual replacement of the prop. Gotta love it.

[the air up there]

longassgrass, I don't know who the offender was offhand, but I can find out if I need to. I won't however post that publicly as it will only cause **** throwing in what can be a useful thread. Newbies, these examples stated are to be avoided.

Besides, I think enough pilots in Darwin are reading this thread for word to get around. Then the pilot concerned can make their own decision about their attitude. If they don't like it and refuse to change then they will only look like a bigger tool (and hopefully treated like one) when everyone else has learned from this.

eternity, check pm's.

[manymak]

Manymak,

Thanks for the tip about the IFR sartime for departure. But when you are operating charter flights (especially out of aboriginal communities) the actual time of departure plus or minus an hour is always a wild guess. If you compound that with the fact that the airstrip is usually quite a few miles from any sort of telephone simply increases the difficulty.
We do however, insist that the troopie (who dropped off or picked up the passengers) DOES wait after you have departed, which in turn gives you time to make contact with ATC before the drive off.
At night, however dept. SARTIME's are always used when departing from remote strips.No worries. Pleasure I could be of some help.

I can see where you coming from. But what you can do in that case, and also if you are trouble getting HF on the ground at some communities. Is call up briefing as you are about to start up. You can then give a taxi report to them via phone, that will then activate your flight plan and they will give you any appropriate traffic and then activate your IFR SARWATCH.

Ps. Testra Next G is a must for any remote pilot IMO. It has worked in about 85-90% communities I've been in.

[The Green Goblin]

If you can't get HF or are not in contact with a company representative depart VFR. Nothing preventing you from changing your flight category enroute! (say after take-off!)

[morno]

also if you are trouble getting HF on the ground at some communities. Is call up briefing as you are about to start up. You can then give a taxi report to them via phone, that will then activate your flight plan and they will give you any appropriate traffic and then activate your IFR SARWATCH.

The above advice is slightly incorrect. There are numbers in the ERSA, for pilots of IFR flights to call in cases like this. Briefing is in a completely different building (and completely different state if you're controller is in Melbourne), and is difficult for them to contact the operator of the console concerned with your flight.

The numbers in the ERSA are a direct number to the Supervisor I believe it is, at either Brisbane or Melbourne Centre's, and they can easily contact the controller's at the console's and co-ordinate it from there.

Cheers

morno

[j3pipercub]

Actually Doc,

We had clearance from the airport operators and were leasing three parking spots. So yeah if you parked there, used my chocks with the company name on ALL THREE SIDES , used my ropes and took my park which the company paid for, you may find your aircraft chained. And my explanantion would go something like this:

'Sorry, thought it was one of the other company aircraft visiting from out of town, and in need of greater security. I'm new you see and didn't realise we didn't have any Warriors/182's/Bonanza's. I just figured cos you were parking in our spot, that you were with the company, and see I thought there was gonna be a storm, so I was just doin what I thought was right'.

If we couldn't be bothered with chains, or we were all flying the next day, just go and get some of that cheap 5 dollar rolls of rope, and also loop it through the tie down points, but spend 15 minutes tying knot after knot after knot, until there is barely a scrap of un-tied rope. It gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside when you come back the next morning/arvo to find it cut or un-tied at the tie downs. Yeah they got the point.

Either that or you'd find yourself with a 200 dollar bill for 'overnight parking services/chock and tie down hire '. After a while, people ASKED if they could, instead of ASSUMING they could.

Just cos there aint stencilled letters on the ground, don't mean you can go parking anywhere you want.

Ah Pyro, you're trying to make me jealous I'm sure of it!!!! That j3 in particular is a gorgeous example. 85 hp too, so I'm behind the aircraft as soon as it gets airborne...fwoar!!!! :) Are you hour building in it? PM if you ever want a passenger, or a cost share for longer trips.

j3

[Jabawocky]

Ah Pyro, you're trying to make me jealous I'm sure of it!!!! That j3 in particular is a gorgeous example. 85 hp too, so I'm behind the aircraft as soon as it gets airborne...fwoar!!!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif Are you hour building in it? PM if you ever want a passenger, or a cost share for longer trips.

Longer trips????

What to explore the boundaries of BOTH Training areas! :ok:

J:E

[tobzalp]

Useful thread. Some excellent info. Now, all it needs is someone to tell those retards that depart YBTI with no taxi to smarten up. Oh wait........ :E

[chainsaw]

C'mon FTDK,

Don't you think you're getting a bit too precious here? :ugh:

Do that to my aeroplane and I will initiate appropriate legal action. I think you will find that interfering with an aircraft is regarded as a serious offence.

Ever played plaintiffs and defendants in the NSW court system??? If you had then you wouldn't be making hairy-chested threats like the one you've just made.............believe me!

[eternity]

I agree with you completely......Next G is gold and a must have for any pilot operating in remote communities.


Unfortunately operating in Central Oz, there are only about 3 (i think) communities that have Next G available. If I'm within approx 100nm from the larger points (eg: Ayers, Alice, TNK, BMA, WBR) I can usually pick up Next G passing anywhere between 5000-8000ft but by then I would have already made contact with centre.

My only other viable option is to attempt to use a troopies sat phone. But those Iridiums are usually as busted ass as the troopie itself!!
On the odd occasion that you do get through to CEN on the sat phone, the readibility is so bad that you usually just confuse CEN and then become so frustrated that you subconciously start looking for a match for the troopies fuel tank.
But thankfully 95% of the time you can successfully contact on HF whilst on the ground.

Thanks again though.


GG,

Good point in regards to dept. VFR and upgrading. And certainly a real option.
We rarely have bad wx though so you are visual anyway.
Just for a point though - if unable to contact on ground it is standard to remain in VMC until we make contact for traffic information (for obvious reasons)


Eternity.

[pilot2684]

FTDK.

I agree with you that touching another person's aircraft is a serious offence, however, I think that if you're seriously having the need to threaten people on line then maybe you should look at the attitude of yourself towards others. That there is the attitude of most of the selfish pilots.
What makes you any different to the guy at the fuel bowsers ?

Airmanship is an unwritten gentlefolks agreement, and when someone else breaks that agreement, then it shouldn't change you. They will get found out for it and then you can let karma get the better of them.

Ease up gramps and maybe then alot of the other people in the industry wouldn't be so selfish. It's all about lead by example.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Oh brother! :bored:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Original topic. Big hello to N from DA.:cool:

[Weetbix]

I say 'surreal' because it was such a bizarre thing to hear on the radio that I almost could not believe it was happening. Where I trained there was a huge emphasis placed on airmanship and as such it was very rare to hear someone behaving like such a f*ckwit.

I say airmanship because at a recent CASA seminar on the subject it was pointed out that airmanship need not only pertain to the flying side of our operations but to even the tiniest details like how you behave on the phone to CENSAR to being polite to the refuellers when they come to chuck jungle juice in your machine.

Food for thought anyway.

[Lodown]

I knew a Sue Real once. What she lacked in airmanship, she more than made up for in other ways.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I knew a Sue Real once.

.... and I know her brother Get !

Dr :8

[Capt Fathom]

This is not just the realm of aviation.

In general, people today just seem to lack manners or respect!

Our whole society is slowly going down the gurgler! :(

[sms777]

It is all about common curtesy.
I rmember the days not too long ago when if someone bumped into your car at the carpark and leave you a note on the windscreen with contact details resolving problem.
That time has gone on the ground and in the air unfortunately. I have been a professional truck driver and professional pilot for over 20 years and i can only see deteroiation of professionalism in both industry. It is a disgrace and absolute disgust.
The problem lies in lack of professional education from both sides. These days it is all about money rather than teaching our youngsters common curtesy and principles in the air and on the ground
Yuo know what i mean, I am starting to sound political, so i am off.