A classic quote from a Ppruner

[Centaurus]

Saw this from an exasperated American Ppruner asking about renewing an instructor grading. Especially loved the bit about the proliferation of people wearing hi viz vests. They breed like flies.


I quit flying as a career mainly because I could no longer tolerate the mindless cretins that have taken over a large part of aviation and churn out never ending rules and regulations that are reflective of their myopic view of the world around them, the hi vis vest is a typical example of their mindset and their vision of the world around them.

[triadic]

One thing is for sure.... it will never be the same again!

Those of us that were around in the good times will know when they were!:ok:

(certainly not in the last 2 decades)

Change is not always a bad thing and ofter there is good reason for it, and maybe we are learning from experience in putting in all these new rules as a trade-off for not teaching common sense any more:ugh::ugh:

[ZEEBEE]

Safety is a good thing, and it's hard to say that you can have too much safety...however.

Flying still needs a healthy dollop of common sense both from a flight and ground operational point of view.

In my opinion, there are those who seem to think that procedures can and should replace common sense.

Rather, procedures should re-inforce common sense, after all, that's where we hope the procedures came from in the first place.

Unfortunately, there are too many cases where the "safety culture" is so heavily overdone, that people start believing that they can do anything that is not expressly forbidden by the procedures.
This is based on the premise that "If it wasn't safe, they wouldn't let us do it"

At this point common sense devolves to procedure following and we are no longer pilots or whatever but procedure followers.

In turn, this spawns a bureaucracy that tries to implement a procedure for everything since it's obvious that common sense can't be trusted.

I believe that's where we are right now.

[Lodown]

It's not just aviation. It has infiltrated just about every job where automation and team consultation has taken large chunks of what used to require individual skill and experience. There are people who fit right into this environment and others who have a difficult time with it. It has appeared to make flying safer and improved the acceptance of aviation by paying passengers, but it has made for a very sterile workplace in many cases. If someone paid me a jet jockey's salary to fly VFR SE (especially tailwheel), you wouldn't get me out of there with a crowbar.

[Mr. Hat]

What about real safety and not pretend DOTARS safety.

Did anybody see the show on the abc about the sydney airport security scam? Basically corruption at the highest level. So don't think for a minute that you can change things. Its a dictatorship disguised as a democracy.

As long as it looks safe.

[Howard Hughes]

I have resisted wearing a hi-viz vest for about ten years, sadly it has now been mandated by my employer...:{

[Jabawocky]

OH&S
Proudly interferring with Natural Post Natal Genetic Selection


Credit to: Adapted from the wise words of Chimbu Chuckles

[Frank Arouet]

One thing is for sure.... it will never be the same again!

Ron Gladdon and then Mrs Giltrap operated the licensing branch in the 60's and 70's. Same job today would have a staff of "thousands" despite emerging technology.

There are about the same number of pilots flying now as then. What did we do to deserve that?

[Dog One]

Work to rule practices these days, centralised location, a new super computer system that does not recognise licences, ratings and approvals of the past.

[Wiley]

Imagine if some OH&S weenie had been on the spot and in a position of authority when the Norfolk Islanders were coming to the (let's face it, incredibly risky) decision on whether to launch the boat to investigate those three bobbing lights they could see off the coast a week or two ago?

[tio540]

I am yet to have a close call by not wearing a bright vest, but need a crash helmet to duck the bulls%$t when attending the airport administration office.

My airside drivers licence prohibits me from driving on an apron or taxiway, until I am in the smallest airplane, where I can drive anywhere I please. :bored:

[GADRIVR]

An interesting thread. A relative of the Mrs Drivr with a lengthy and fairly distinguished career behind him in the media made similiar observations to Zeebee and Lodown as regarding the levels of intellectual competence he'd seen come into his industry over twenty odd years.
His overall conclusion (I must admit to it being a VERY long conversation fuelled by a mass consumption of various reds, white etc and therefore my recollections are somewhat fuzzy!) was that due to changes in the 70s in the education system, mediocre performance was rewarded and indeed encouraged amongst that generation. It would interesting to see as to whether someone with far better Googling skills than me could come up with info confirming that view.;)

[longrass]

That's a good one jaba...

I can't wait to see the day when the student walks out to the aircraft wearing a hard hat with a rotating orange light attached to it, high vis vest, safety glasses, steel caps, flame retardent flight suit, gloves and calls ground for pedestrian clearance

[The Green Goblin]

If the airport nazis grill you for not wearing a vest, just use the classic response, "how did you see me when I did not have a vest on?"

I hate the damn things especially in the tropics! You're already sweating like a pedophile at a wiggles concert in your uniform without the added layer of a nylon vest!

[longrass]

Considering the fact that the vests generally issued are XXXXXXXXXL and are not tucked in, I could see problems with the vest itself becoming dangerous around moving parts, actually, so is long hair, we should push for hair nets as well, laceless shoes, Lycra uniforms and little licenses confirming that we know how to avoid moving aircraft whilst walking, I mean after all, most fatalities and crashes occur on the ground rather than in the air aye!

[Buster Hyman]

I've always thought that if everyone on the apron wore a high vis vest, then I'd stand out by not wearing one, wouldn't I? :confused:

[Hasherucf]

I left the mining industry because of the overkill of safety. It quickly went from Hi-Viz vests to fluro long sleeve shirts and pants . You end up looking like a complete idiot

[Horatio Leafblower]

I left the mining industry because of the overkill of safety. It quickly went from Hi-Viz vests to fluro long sleeve shirts and pants

..mind you, you'd look pretty silly squashed against the rib by an Eimco too.

Guys I know working at an open-cut pit in the Hunter have to do a "take two" checklist every time they get on, and every time they get off, the ^&*( trucks. "I would rather we produce no coal at all if it means everyone goes home safely at the end of the day" crowed the safety manager :ugh:

I have been lucky enough (?) to recently help an RPT operator get their CASA-mandated Safety Management Manual together for submission. Man you should read the CASA guidance material ... oh boy. :rolleyes:

I blame the 1990s Education system, I did OK in the 1970s and 1980s! :mad:

[Capt Fathom]

If walking around the apron is that dangerous, how come they let us get in an aircraft and takeoff?

Doesn't make sense! :uhoh:

[waren9]

Agree with ZEEBEE.

What ever happened to taking personal responsibility for the outcome instead of having a culture where someone else is always to blame? The yanks started it by sueing if things dont go your way. The rest of us are following suit.

Dont get me started on hi-vis clothing. If you get run over, just perhaps you were in the F#CKING way!

Back to natural selection I say, where individuals are encouraged to anticipate outcomes before taking action.

[Howard Hughes]

It could be worse, we could live in France, where you need a hi-viz vest if you break down on the side of the road...:eek:

[psycho joe]

It's just a vest. It takes up no room in a flight bag, takes 2 seconds to put on, and as an added bonus is "Hi-Vis".

Now let's get onto a real safety issue in aviation. Something that has been carelessly & dare I say willfully used with reckless indifference against & by fellow aviators for years; The Semicolon.

This punctuation is real people; and used in the wong hands, who knows what untold damage may be done.

Are you or someone you know a victim of semicolon use?

Be safe people. :bored:

[Frank Arouet]

It is a well known fact that most road accidents are caused by people taking the pickle out of their Maccas. High viz vests may prevent this, but then again more prescriptive legislation would probably do the trick.

[tio540]

It is a sad fact that most crash victims are not wearing an high viz vest.:ok:

[cficare]

I'd suggest that the vast majority of people that die or suffer injury every day (millions).....are not wearing a hi-vis vest!!!!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

You reckon OH&S is bad in aviation, wait until you get the OH&S experts rock up to your local steam railway preservation society.

The young OH&S expert with all his life experience telling the retired steam drivers how to be safe around the iron horse etc.

[mendi63]

OH&S experts would have a field day if they saw LAME's doing engine adjustments while the prop was turning:}

[John Eacott]

OH & S in nearly all states now have a "2 metre" legislation relating to working higher than 2 metres off the ground, and associated diktats for safety harnesses etc. Very tricky to comply when you're on the roof of a helicopter in the middle of a paddock somewhere carrying out a pre flight inspection :rolleyes: And how did we manage on aircraft carrier flight decks in the 60's and 70's without OH & S.....:hmm:

The hi vis vest on the apron is indicative of the world gone mad. Going OT, my friend's van has now been impounded by his local police since last June following a fatal accident where a pedestrian walked in front of him whilst in heavy traffic at a speed well below the posted limit. Every attempt seems to be pursued to implicate the driver for not seeing the pedestrian who intruded into the vehicle's right of way. Little issue seems to be made about the deceased failing to see a 4 tonne van being driven legally on the road :(

[pithblot]

GADRIVER

was that due to changes in the 70s in the education system, mediocre performance was rewarded and indeed encouraged amongst that generation. It would interesting to see as to whether someone with far better Googling skills than me could come up with info confirming that view.

I think there is a lot to be said for this. Maybe it doesn't explain everything, but what we teach - or do not teach - our young folk, manifests its self in the broader community eventually.

Regarding OH&S it would help to replace bureaucrats with men who have real world experience and a dose of common sense.

My vote goes to Fred Bibna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_7uIapoHc) for OH&S rep:ok:

Pithblot.


BBC documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuSW9kOBADo) about Fred Dibhah

[Brian Abraham]

OH & S in nearly all states now have a "2 metre" legislation relating to working higher than 2 metres off the ground
We too went through that John. Company proposal was we have stands with necessary steps and handrails installed to surround the aircraft to access and preflight. They bought the argument that pushing stands around the ramp in the usual 40 knot zephyr might not be a good idea.

The 2 metre thing - a good job the rule wasn't around when ZEEBEE was a 12 year old refuelling Tigers at the local airport. And slinging 44 drums around like the were skittles, you're not permitted to lift anything heavier than a Mars Bar these days. And a 12 year old on a airport :{

[John Eacott]

you're not permitted to lift anything heavier than a Mars Bar these days

and then only with a JSA (Job Safety Analysis) signed by the Queen Mum. Which is getting really hard to do these days ;)

[The Green Goblin]

The problem is our society is a bunch of sissys and we can't get anything done!

Want to build something? The amount of bureaucracy you have to face is unbelievable and the money wasted is a farce! Curfews at airports are an ideal example.

Why are we introducing a carbon trading scheme? It's simply a cash grab from the bloody pollies. The way it should be handled is to simply say 'this is our target for carbon emissions'. By this date xxxx your vehicle will only be allowed to emit xxx, power generation must be xxxx percent green and industry must achieve xxxx. If you don't we will fine you xxx per week/month/year until you comply.

If they can charge us for emmisions then next they will be charging us for the air! Wait for the fart police to tax that too!

[bilbert]

Had a run in with a 'Security' wallah. I was wearing a white pilot shirt. He said it has to be Hi-Vis 'green'. White is the brighest of all as it is all colours combined for maximum reflectivity. Wonder if I'll end up in court?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Recently out of the trucking industry: A certain model of well known truck, State OH&S demanded that access platforms be provided, plus safety harness, for a driver to get in and out of the cab. From ground level to the floor of the cab is right on 2m.
Going to make it a bit difficult to go for a "safe c--p" at a truck stop.
Tootle pip!!

[Timber]

Emissions should be reduced by setting standards and limits for emitters and not by the introduction of an ETS.

Of course the government(s) have the problem that they have to pay an ever growing army of civil servants and they need ever more money to do so. The civil servants in turn are always thinking of ways to complicate issues they are involved in, by introducing more and more regulations, thereby justifying their own position and sense of importance. Eventually the system will collapse under its own weight.

:{

[Stikybeke]

Isn't there a famous ex-golfer who had a brief (but unforgettable) interlude with an aircraft that wears half a vest (now that is...)?

:eek:

[Neptunus Rex]

Leadsled,

That one's easy - just let some air out of the tyres!

[Howard Hughes]

Of course the government(s) have the problem that they have to pay an ever growing army of civil servants and they need ever more money to do so.
A friend who is an environmental scientist has applied for and been given a job with the federal government, only thing is it is subject to the ETS being passed by Parliament this week!:eek:

[the air up there]

Isn't there a famous ex-golfer who had a brief (but unforgettable) interlude with an aircraft that wears half a vest (now that is...)?

Yeah, but I think the DAMP regulations would have been a better preventative measure the hi vis vest. Even though he wasn't in a safety sensitive role at the time, merely airside.


Little issue seems to be made about the deceased failing to see a 4 tonne van being driven legally on the road

Perhaps if the van has been painted in hi vis colours instead of that pesky white, then perhaps the decease would have seen it coming.

[SeldomFixit]

Insurance companies :mad:

[The Green Goblin]

Wait until our pilot shirts become fluro yellow or red!

Then we will just be another 'bus' driver :ugh:

[Two_dogs]

FFS!
edited for character count.

[Stikybeke]

Yesterday after I posted I had a bird crap on my head....I wonder if that would've happened if I had Hi Vis hair?

:confused:

[tinpis]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2008/11/17/reg.jpg

[oil additive]

Firstly... Green Goblin, I just love your work. Absolute Gold mate :ok: Particularly like your post on the 29th "You're already sweating like a pedophile at a wiggles concert" Can I use that mate?

Second... All of the people who've been run over by some moron while working on the ramp have been wearing a Hi-Vis Vest.

Third... I'm 110 kgs & wear a neatly laundered white shirt... If you can't see me wadling around the bloody tarmac then you need a set of Hi-Vis glasses!! :ugh:

Fourth... Can't think of anything, but did I mention that I HATE :mad: HI-VIS VESTS

[j3pipercub]

Useless stupid things they are! Almost as useless as making pilots get airside licenses. I had a terminal manager threaten to charge me for driving without a license airside. Didn't realise terminal managers had been deputized says I, all I got in return was a death stare.

Very same man tried to sick DOTARs onto our beers at the hangar after work cos we were airside. Apparantely we were a 'threat' to security.DOTARs promptly informed him that we were the best form of latent security around...awesome

j3

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Bit like the brand new ladder that I purchased at the auction house, didn't meet the OH&S standards because it did not have a sticker saying it was dangerous to stand on the top step.

The auction house was clearing them out on behalf of a government department, as they failed the "standard", funny that I have used for the last ten years without any problems.

[Jabawocky]

j3.......this would not have been at YHBA?

Or maybe the same breed of Morons?

J:ugh:

[Worrals in the wilds]

After too many years driving airside (before and after the vest plague) I've long thought that hi vis vests make drivers complacent. I don't recall more people being squashed before they were inflicted on us, including people in dark blue overalls. Some companies now have a rule that they have to be worn even inside a vehicle, presumably because they work better than airbags :ugh:.

I have wondered about the effectiveness of a hi-vis vest that's covered in several gallons of grease, coffee stains and mysterious goo (you all know who you are ;)).

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. (Herbert Spencer, 1820 - 1903)

[DBTW]

In the old days, the thought police were called wowsers and blue bellies. The average Australian was considered to be a larrikin because of his disrespect for authority. In the past, the larrikins have always won the day over the wowsers.

So what has happened to us? Why are we having this conversation? If we don't like the regulations they should be changed because we are the people and the government/bureaucrats work for us, not vice versa. The campaign can start with a refusal to wear hi vis jackets. There is no law against it! :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Ohhhhh DB

there you go talking common sense and reality again......have you not been told lately? :ok::ok::ok:

Maybe we can start a revolution..........

No need for yellow shirts up here mate!:ok: YCAB is a yellow shirt free zone!

J :ok:

[screwballburling]

Common Sense, The Obituary.

An Obituary printed in the London Times - Interesting and sadly rather true.
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm;
- Life isn't always fair;
- and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing

[j3pipercub]

Awesome Screwball.

And Jaba, HBA? I don't know what you're talking about... :)

[Back Pressure]

What's all this ? I couldn't give a sh!t

[aileron_69]

Dont get me started on hi-vis clothing. If you get run over, just perhaps you were in the F#CKING way!


Amen to that. Its not like aircraft are known for quietly sneaking up on people. They do tend to make quite a racket.

[HarleyD]

A few months ago I was working out od an RAAf base. proir to arrival I made all the right calls, got permission and letter from mum and was told to contact FSGT XXXXX on arrival for parking advice for the duration of the operation.

I have not been on airside of this base for a few years, back then it was blue working dress that was standard tarmac wear, however in these times there is a need to meet both airbase security requirements: Full on DPCU camo unform and poo boots so that he does not present a ready target for Osama, and then, over the top, A High Viz vest with prominent ID!!!

The lunatics are running the asylum

[mickjoebill]

White is the brighest of all as it is all colours combined for maximum reflectivity.
If it was a cloudy day with plenty of UV (but not so much visible spectrum) and the vest was fluorescent then the vest can be brighter than white.

One defense is to claim you use a washing powder with fluorescent whitening agents for for white shirsts :ok:

Mickjoebill

[GADRIVR]

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. (Herbert Spencer, 1820 - 1903)"

If that be the case, could it be right to assume that Darwin indeed had a valid hypothesis?

If the answer is a resounding yes.....it goes to follow that requiring people to wear a high vis vest not only seems to contribute to the overall downfall of humanity but indeed is proof positive that some people are attempting despite all evidence to the contrary to place themselves in the position of God!!!!!!
It's a return to the dark ages I tell you. Soon we'll be all living in muck, scratching our nether regions and eating rats!
Who would've thunk!:ok:

[Murray Cod]

I recall doing a survey in Newman years ago. ZeeBee may remember.
I asked the airport manager for permission to erect a GPS base station within the airport perimeter. He refused permission , he believed it could fall on someone plus a trip hazard and banned me from placing it within the shire. The shiire is about 12000 sq Kms. I hid it behind a tree about 20 m away.
I could tell i was in trouble when I shut down , as I saw him walking fast towards me shaking his head and he had a goatee.
I appear to have followed Horatio's sorry career/ life path , my main concern in other walks of life was shuttle cars and pillar extraction not Eimco's.
MC