New tug helps aircraft movement

[beamender99]

An engineering company from Shoreham in West Sussex has developed a new type of vehicle which pulls aircraft from the terminal out to the runway.

A short video clip of the test vehicle.

BBC News - New tug helps aircraft movement (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8382902.stm)

[Alanwsg]

I don't understand why a new type of tug is needed for this.
Can't the existing tugs just take the aircraft to the runways as they are?
OK ... the pilots can't control them from the cockpit, but so what?

[wobble2plank]

I wonder what the engine wear would be after just starting up the engines and immediately applying take off thrust! I would wager that putting full thrust on a cold engine would cause more wear cost than that of burning a ton or two of fuel!

You would need at least 5 minutes 'warm up', also most of the start up snags would then be 'discovered' just prior to take off whilst blocking the line up taxi way!

Quite a difficult task to get the engineers all the way out there.

Great idea, a few hurdles to overcome yet though.

[Dont Hang Up]

Didn't Virgin Atlantic try the idea at Heathrow and abandon it almost immediately?

The controllers certainly didn't like it.

[sjm]

2000kg of fuel is that an accurate firgure for a 747 a340 in lhr?

In ams/cdg b737 is only 150kg rarely burn more than that

[TOWTEAMBASE]

i just dont get it, its a nice idea and all that, but whats the point in inventing a tug.....thats operated by the pilot.....and having the driver sat with his arms folded, or texting blah blah. WHY DOESNT HE JUST DRIVE ??????. Presumably this is more to the "tow em to the runway before start up to save fuel" rubbish. it just a glorified TBL with a passenger

[PeePeerune]

look at video @ 37secs.........that will be the grd power lead being ripped out from the a/c !!!!!!!!!!! :ok::ok::ok:

[BALLSOUT]

Concorde used to use 2 tons on taxi out at CDG but I doubt if many others will come close, Typical 737 = 150 KG

[mantug01]

I would't trust that !

There was an accident in MAN many years ago with a TBL, the aircraft was being towed with engines running when more thrust was applied the nose wheel came loose and mounted the tug. Could have been much worse!

[spannersatKL]

Whoops at 37 secs you are right!!!!

[Pugilistic Animus]

nose wheel came loose and mounted the tug



that would make an interesting love child:}

PA

[DouglasFlyer]

The APU / taxi fuel on a A-340-300 according OM B is as follows:

APU-Fuel: 200 kg/hr
Taxiing: 30 kg/min.

A-330-200 and A330-300 are similar...

[Flap33]

Typical taxi fuel (25 mins) on the 744 from T5 to 27L/R is approx 1100Kg.

They also don't mention the need for the 5 minute warm-up required prior to application of tae-off power.

Good idea in principal though, not so great in practice.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Im still lost, why is all this talk about taxiing, surely the tug is instead of the engines running.it may be controlled by the cpt, but surely the power is coming from the tug, if it wasnt, the tug wouldnt need to be such a monster. TBL are great....right up until they start to go wrong, or even silly stuf like condensation on sensors.


REF the MAN incident..why was it being towed with engines running, was it a push back/pull forward jobby

[TOWTEAMBASE]

and just to clear up the 37 sec oops....its the headset lead, it isnt the ground power.........the GPU/FEGP is much thicker than that,god spot tho...still a potential knackered headset

[Imperator1300]

Can't help wondering about the runway safety (i.e incursion) implication of multiple vehicles operating close to busy runways :=

Imperator 1300

[mantug01]

TOWTEAMBASE - REF the MAN incident..why was it being towed with engines running, was it a push back/pull forward jobby

Yes it was pushing back then pulling forward...for a quite a long way

[mary meagher]

Don't rain on their parade, it will never happen! What would one of these gadgets cost? not a little. How many fancy pilot operated tugs would you
need to line up all the jets on the taxiway at Kennedy? And then once detached from the aircraft, you would have to construct an extra taxiway for the tug to get back for the next customer.

The only sillier idea I've ever seen are those extremely peculiar busses that somebody sold to the airport design committee at Washington Dulles....you know, the ones that go up and down and cross the active taxiways?

[raffele]

The only sillier idea I've ever seen are those extremely peculiar busses that somebody sold to the airport design committee at Washington Dulles....you know, the ones that go up and down and cross the active taxiways?

That'll be the Mobile Lounges and PlaneMates you're thinking of... They are very peculiar, but I kinda prefer them (from an SLF perspective!) to airbridges or airstairs. Different to the norm and all that...

[HamishMcBush]

Surely it would be better if ATC Ground Movements got their collective acts together to prevent unnecessarily long delays between push-backs and getting to the runway? A bit of computer power and trained brains must be cheaper and more kind to the environment than fleets of new tugs at every major airport world-wide

[tigger2k8]

and just to clear up the 37 sec oops....its the headset lead, it isnt the ground power.........the GPU/FEGP is much thicker than that,god spot tho...still a potential knackered headsethave seen some airports where the tug driver do the headset via a cable as well, using the tug in the clip... very long/stretchy cable.. the guy outside (wingman) closes the headset door and bypass pin removal... i cud be wrong, but i thought there would have been more of a reaction from the guy on the ground if it wasnt meant to be that way

nice idea, but i cant see it catching on

[itwasme]

Surely it should be "Taxybot" not "Taxibot" ?

[Max Angle]

Surely it would be better if ATC Ground Movements got their collective acts together to prevent unnecessarily long delays

Fat chance, you can get a 15 minute start delay at LHR and then then still take 30+ minutes to get airborne after start, truly pathetic on occasions.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

your right tigger, but as with the tug "driver", if the wingman is walking out beside the kite, why not with a headset on, ??? and as for the noticing if it wasnt right....you would be VERY suprised what would need to jump up and bite some people on the ass before they would notice

[Scott Diamond]

And what the heck happens when they get to the runway? Does the tug then detach at the holding point, requiring more safety checks and delays, then dodge all other pilot-operated tugs & plane to get to the next plane to join the conga of green-pampering failure?

[WindSheer]

Why don't they just ban airbourne holding on the way into LHR!!

That would save a far drop more.....

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hamish and Max Angle... You guys really ought to spend a couple of hours trying to do it. We had a smart-a*se pilot in Heathrow Tower one day who thought he knew all the answers so we gave him a headset and told him to get on with it. Five minutes later he had to give up.

I just wonder if the guys who invented this new machine have ever been near a busy airfield? It would be bad enough at Gatwick or Heathrow but just imagine the carnage at some of the US airfields with 100 tugs running around the taxiways in LVPs, or even good weather for that matter. Will they be fitted with SSR?

[TOWTEAMBASE]

what happens if the a/c pushes back, and then goes tech, does the pilot reverse it or does the tug "driver" take over....

[TOWTEAMBASE]

back onto stand i meant sorry

[Peter47]

From my experience of taxi times at JFK 2,000kg is probably a reasonable figure for a 747 taxiing out at peak times so that could save £1,200 with fuel at $3/gal. I think that Mr Boeing is a little concerned about stresses on his nose wheel though.

Even a 5 minute warm up would still allow savings.

Prior to the introduction of towbarless tugs aircraft were not allowed to be towed during peak hours at JFK. BA engineers would tow a 747 from a remote holding gate (presumably on two engines). I don't know if this still happens.

I've taken off from MIA where the runway is right next to the DL pier less than five minutes after the engines have been switched on, but that was with a JT8D powered aircraft.

[Koan]

Re: Sir Rick's brilliant "Green" initiative. Boeing stated their jets are not designed to be tugged for miles on a regular basis at MTOW. Nose gear rebuild costs would quickly nullify any fuel savings, idea scrapped forthwith.

[jom1v07]

Sorry to dredge up a dying thread, but this is a subject along the lines of my uni dissertation work, so I have a question or two for you guys in the know!

RE the nosewheel stresses, is a TBL better than a conventional tug for this, or much the same? Also, if not, would strengthening the nose gear be such an idea-killer? Don't aircraft have their undercarriage strengthened for steep approach capabilities, and wouldn't this be along the same lines?

Also anyone have any further details on the Virgin tests?

Thanks :ok:

[Checkboard]

Conventional tugs shear the link on the tow bar if they encounter too much force.

As per this idea - sometimes it's hard enough getting a tug, without 50 of the things tied up in a queue at the runway! Not that you want to push back with a 50 aircraft queue at the runway in any case!

[42psi]

There was an accident in MAN many years ago with a TBL, the aircraft was being towed with engines running when more thrust was applied the nose wheel came loose and mounted the tug. Could have been much worse!


That incident (if it's the same one I attended!) took place after the pushback and (short) pull forward to the tug release point on the even side of B pier.

Tug had disconnected and moved forward while headset man signed off with flight deck & disconnected.

As headset man started to leave nosewheel area a/c commenced taxi and ran over the tug .. driver "legged it" as the a/c mounted his vehicle :E