About to start gliding lessons [Archive]

BackPacker

23rd Nov 2009, 20:05

Second the good boots. Waterproof preferably. And a pair of very light sneakers for the moment you actually get into the aircraft. Personally I prefer a pair of zip-the-legs-off outdoor trousers, t-shirt or polo shirt and a windbreaker fleece. No points are awarded for clothing style in the gliding scene!

Bring a backpack with the stuff you need throughout the day (lunch, sunscreen, sunglasses, hat or cap, warm clothing, book, you name it). There is usually no opportunity to get back to the clubhouse to fetch stuff throughout the day unless you fancy a long walk.

A logbook and a pen is necessary but make sure you get the correct one. (The logbook that is - normally any pen will do.) The club can advise. (On the logbook.)

And for the rest, bring patience. What you'll find is that there's one instructor and one plane for each three to five students or so. You'll be spending a lot of time on the ground and during that time are supposed to help hook up the aircraft to be launched, and retrieve the aircraft from the landing field. Do get a proper briefing before you join in those activities though!

glider12000

23rd Nov 2009, 20:36

I have a camelbak! Great to use in flight as it can be put behond your seat and the tube sits on top of your chute. Also holds a lot of liquid so good at the launchpoint too!

Have a great time in this wonderful sport!

chillindan

23rd Nov 2009, 20:42

Thanks for all the constructive replies, I really appreciate it as there does seem to be a lot to take in and learn!

BackPacker, you mention I should ensure I get the correct log book, I didn't realise there were different types!

All, thanks for the advise on books, I'll look into the ones you have recommended and make sure Santa brings one or two!

BackPacker

23rd Nov 2009, 23:59

Well, the legal requirement is that you log your hours. Aerodrome, take-off time, landing time, aircraft type, class, callsign, flight conditions, the capacity you acted in and possibly a few more bits and pieces. How you do that is technically your responsibility. But people seem to be very picky about your logbook style and will point out that you've got the "wrong" one.

The flight school I went to sold me one of those "professional" flying logbooks with enough pages and columns to last me a lifetime and then some. Caused quite a few looks at the motor flying club and the gliding flying club who use a more "compact" form. On the other hand - I've got all my hours in one place with room to spare.

AlastairMutch

24th Nov 2009, 07:13

You just need a BGA log book for UK gliding. The club will most likely have them available when you get there. Otherwise you can get one from the BGA shop @ £4
British Gliding Association - Online Shop (http://www.gliding.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=63)

Heated insoles for boots are a great investment.

Have fun!

Alastair

astir 8

24th Nov 2009, 07:51

The paperback British Gliding Association logbook is fine. Tip though is to keep it between hard covers (e.g. the cover off an old hardback A3 diary) because otherwise your first logbook will end up looking very tatty - reason being that you need to carry it around pre-solo as the instructors generally like to write-up your daily progress. This is an aid (or warning!) to your next instructor.

Welcome to gliding :ok:

chillindan

24th Nov 2009, 07:52

Ahh I see ok thanks for the tip. I've spoken with the club and they have told me they will provide me with a joining pack which includes a log book so it looks like I don't need to worry about that.

Can't wait to start now!

BroomstickPilot

24th Nov 2009, 13:06

Hi Chillindan,

One thing no one else has mentioned; all leather industrial gloves. This is for two reasons.

1) If you are going to work a cable launch site, you will have to heave steel cables about the place. These are heavy and have to be pulled hard. Cable wire invariably has strands with sharp loose ends which can scratch your hands quite badly when you get hold of the cable and start to pull.

2) Likewise, when towing a glider back or forth between the hangar and the launch point, if you are wingman during the tow then your hands will be exposed to the wind all the way to the launch point. This trek has to take place at walking pace and can easily take twenty-five minutes.

People have mentioned warm and waterproof clothing. I would agree, but add that this needs to be old clothing. With most gliders, you have to lie on your back to connect the cable, so you don't want to be lying in the mud in your best new Goretex waterproof or fleece.

I would also suggest that you check with the club whether your boots need to have a definite sole and heel, rather than the straight through combined sole/heel unit currently used in climbing/walking boots. This is because you will probably also have to drive a tractor when towing gliders and you don't want your foot slipping off the clutch or brake pedals at the wrong moment.

Have a good time!

Broomstick.

astir 8

24th Nov 2009, 13:35

A boiler suit keeps you clean and is nice and warm - especially when oily. Wear an ex-RAF flying suit and the p*** will most likely be taken!

Cotton Traders do a boot with the bottom half welly boot and the top half sort of fur lined flying boot. They fit better than wellies and are much warmer.

chillindan

24th Nov 2009, 14:21

Thanks again, I've added strong leather gloves to my wish list..

Something like these?

DeWalt Tools Leather Palm Rigger Gloves Large Riggers on eBay (end time 30-Nov-09 10:01:49 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DeWalt-Tools-Leather-Palm-Rigger-Gloves-Large-Riggers_W0QQitemZ200348898377QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Prote ctiveGear_RL?hash=item2ea5b99449)

:D

BackPacker

24th Nov 2009, 14:58

Personally I would not add expensive leather gloves to my list just yet. The gliding club I was used some sort of mylar/dyneema/whatever rope which could easily be handled safely with your bare hands.

Wait and see what type of cable is in use, and what others are wearing. Perhaps bare hands are OK, perhaps just a pair of cheap work gloves from the DIY store.

If the weather gets cold, a pair of windbraker fleece gloves with some rubber pieces for grip may work just as well. They will certainly suffice for the trek from the hangar to the launch point.

tinpilot

24th Nov 2009, 18:48

Full fingered cycling gloves with rubber grip bits on the fingers and palm are best. A good combination of warmth, windproof, grip and feel.

There's no reason why you, as a beginner, should be handling lots of steel cable.

Miserlou

24th Nov 2009, 20:16

And you'll need a silly, frilly hat.

Mens - Hats & accessories - Beanie/Bucket Hat - It's a wing thing - Gliding clothing & flying toys (http://www.itsawingthing.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=16)

This is a serious post.

ProfChrisReed

24th Nov 2009, 20:57

Aged 33 you probably don't feel the cold, but if in January you are freezing I recommend ski trousers (the cheapest you can get, probably from eBay). 12 years ago I bought a pair that comes up over the lower back, with integral braces, and when others dithered I went flying. A windproof outer layer is essential - anything from a cagoule to a proper flying suit.

Good luck with your training - I started in September and went solo in April (with no soaring in between) and by the end of the following summer had my bronze and was on my way to Silver (this is important - Silver badge makes you a real glider pilot, entitled to break club gliders without supervision). Learning in winter is really good (except for the scrubbed days. By the time I went solo I'd launched and landed in howling gales, horrendous crosswinds, rain showers, with misting canopy etc - summer flying was dead easy apart from those pesky thermals. And crisp, bright winter days are magical for flying.

In terms of books, much depends on your thinking style. I'm pretty analytical and found Piggott less use until well after solo. Ken Stewart's Glider Pilot's Handbook worked well for me. If you're more a "get the feel for it" person, then Piggott is definitely for you, and you'll find Stewart rather dry and technical.

Two pieces of advice for the beginning glider pilot:

1. Join in. Fetch cables, drive the tractor, push gliders around etc. This is more fun than standing still in the cold, and integrates you into the club workings. People will be pleased you joined, and you will be treated very well. Also you learn stuff - you'll fly a better winch launch once you know what the winch driver hates, or what drives the tug pilot mad. Someone who treats the club like a shop and moans because they're getting poor service inevitably alienates the other members, who are after all working for free to get you flying. Many times during training club members went out of their way to e.g. fetch another set of cable so I could fly again, when really everyone else except me wanted to finish for the day. Not cynical behaviour on my part, just how I took to it, but looking back I can see occasions when less motivated trainees would not get that extra bit of help.

2. Ask questions. Everyone has wonderful exploits they want to relate, or some pearl of wisdom to impart. So long as you don't believe any of them until they've been confirmed by a reputable source, you can learn a lot.

Fourteen years on I'm still fascinated, own my own glider, but still haven't managed that 500km flight.

chillindan

24th Nov 2009, 21:46

Sounds like you have had some really interesting experiences. I can't wait to join, in fact I'd start tomorrow but have to consider the wife and kids..

I will definitely take your advice but its the kind of thing I would do anyway. When I was younger I would do anything just to hang around an airfield and I even did my work experience at RAF Cosford just so I could get to play with the Harriers and Jaguars they have there (even if they wouldnt let me start the engine).

So driving tractors, pulling cables, manouvering gliders into position.... it all sounds like heaven to me!

Thanks for all the input from everyone on here, seems like a really friendly community!

Mechta

25th Nov 2009, 00:48

Sun tan lotion! You'll be out all day, and you will know all about it when you get home.

Aside from what has already been mentioned, here are a few(!) things I carry in my car (ours is a volunteer & weekends only club). I soon learned not to rely on others to bring these:sad:.

Comprehensive toolkit (spanners, allen keys, screwdrivers etc.)
Grease, 3in1 oil, WD40
Glider retrieving rope (goes on towing eye or towbar of car & has two chain links at glider end to fit tow hook. Rope length at least 1 1/2 times length of one wing, 3/8" polypropylene rope)
White PVC insulation tape (for sealing gaps when putting gliders together)
Footpump &/or compressor
Adaptor to fit glider tyre valves
Jump leads
Mobile phone & list of other members phone nos.
Wellies (If you get the kit out early when the grass it still damp, you don't want your feet wet for the rest of the day)
Overalls & disposable gloves (even if you have just fixed the winch or retreive vehicle, your black fingerprints won't be appreciated on white gliders)
Watch
Digital camera
Paper towels or blue kimwipes. Tissues don't stand up to a full day's runny nose...:rolleyes:
If you want to be popular, bring a big pack of broken biscuits and a pint of milk for the coffees at the launchpoint:ok:.

Some glider pilots can be a bit cantankerous, so above all, bring patience and a sense of humour!

cats_five

25th Nov 2009, 06:34

i prefer a fleece hat in winter - I like to keep my head warm! No baseball caps as the large peak obscures visibility, not hats with bobbles and the like as they can knock on the canopy.

And even in mid-winter, if you are out all day on one of those wonderful northerly days when it's crystal clear and visibility is fantastic, it's easy to get sunburnt.

gpn01

25th Nov 2009, 09:02

Before you're totally put off by all the posts about keeping warm, dry and helping out on muddy airfields, can I suggest some gliding related items that might make good Christmas pressies?....

A 1/2 Mil map (as you're in Staffordshire, you may need two - one for the North and one for the South). You don't actually NEED a map whilst you're learning but it'll help to give you a feeling for where you're going to be flying, what to look out for on the ground, other airfields, airspace, etc. It adds an extra dimension as it helps you to better understand the flying environment and may inspire you to think ahead when you're solo and want to progress onto flying away from your home site. A 1/4 Mil is good too if you want to see the area in more detail. Ask your instructors what they'd recommend.

A basic book on Meteorology (the simpler the better) to help you to understand the weather a bit more.

A subscription to Sailplane & Gliding magazine - it contains lots of articles about everything from basic learning through to soaring the Andes.

Have lots of fun!

ZeBedie

25th Nov 2009, 09:30

Take warm, dry clothes, a flask of tea and some sarnies. Maps, Camelback, tools etc - you'll know when you neen them - a lot of the advice here is for more advanced gliding.

There's no reason why you, as a beginner, should be handling lots of steel cable.

Too true - you can pull the cable by the parachute. And always handle it in such a way that if it accidentally departs down the field at 50 knots, you or your fingers won't be taken with it!

chillindan

25th Nov 2009, 09:58

A basic book on Meteorology (the simpler the better) to help you to understand the weather a bit more.

Any suggestions for this?

Also

A 1/2 Mil map (as you're in Staffordshire, you may need two - one for the North and one for the South).

Anyone know which maps cover Staffordshire? The airfield I'll be flying from is Seighford.

Thanks!

gpn01

25th Nov 2009, 10:11

Just like any gliding book by Derek Piggott is good, any Met book by Tom Bradbury is good too. Meteorology and Flight: A Pilot's Guide to Weather: Amazon.co.uk: Tom Bradbury: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meteorology-Flight-Pilots-Guide-Weather/dp/0713668318/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259146939&sr=8-2)

Or, revert to Piggott...Understanding Flying Weather: Amazon.co.uk: Derek Piggott: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Flying-Weather-Derek-Piggott/dp/0713670924/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259147068&sr=8-1)

Don't get too hung up on Met though - the more I learn about it, the less I understand! You just need some simple pointers (such as an overnight difference between minimum night time temp and max daytime temp of more than 10 degrees means it's likely to be a good day).

Enjoy.

chillindan

25th Nov 2009, 10:24

thanks! and the air charts?

gpn01

25th Nov 2009, 10:55

Depends where you are as to which would be best. My guess is that the Southern Half Mil map would be ideal. For 1 1/4 Mil map then probably Sheet 5, Central England & Wales Chart (http://www.afeonline.com/shop/popup_image.php?pID=205) would be useful. There's several official stockists (Stockists | VFR & Chart Information | Airspace Policy (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=64&pagetype=90&pageid=43)) or you may find that a local flying club at an airfield will have them for sale. Your own club may even have them. The maps are about £16.00 each (get the laminated ones so you can write on them with dry marker or chinagraph pens).

cats_five

25th Nov 2009, 11:15

Take warm, dry clothes, a flask of tea and some sarnies. Maps, Camelback, tools etc - you'll know when you neen them - a lot of the advice here is for more advanced gliding.

I think that as an Ab Initio (beginner) he doesn't need anything beyond lots of warm dry clothes, headgear, gloves and warm waterproof footwear. He should check if there are refreshments available when he will be flying, depending on the answer he might need the flask and sarnies. A large bottle of water or a Camelback could be useful on a long hot summer's day at the launchpoint. But tools? Noooo!!!!! :eek:

mary meagher

25th Nov 2009, 12:03

I hope you have an understanding partner! Trouble with gliding is it can be addictive! And you end up with lots of mates. Which is the biggest difference between gliding and power flying, we have to help each other to get airborne!.

Prof. Chris Reed gave an excellent summary. Mechta had a good list of things to keep in the boot, I would add to that list a FIRE EXTINGUISHER!
Only because if there is any power on site, like a motor glider or a tug, it could come in very useful, in addition to any that are kept at the club. A couple of lives were saved at Dunstable once, because a passing automobile carried just such an item.

Did anyone recommend that you keep an eye on the BBC forecasts? Countryfile on Sunday eve. is well worth looking at for the week ahead. But at your early stage, be guided by your instructors, who if the weather is too dodgy, will no doubt have words of wisdom to impart in the classroom.

But the main thing about gliding is it is tremendous fun. And you can keep on keeping it up until you are well advanced in years. There is a vista of achievement ahead; first landing, first solo, bronze badge, silver C, etc etc. Rock polishing, dolphining, wave climbing, competition, instructing, and of course helping others.

Happy landings!

chillindan

25th Nov 2009, 17:21

Thanks for the advice Mary. I've already discussed this with my partner and she is cool about it. At the end of the day she is used to me not being there as I've had a job where I am away all week for 4 years. Now I am going to be home all week, so one day a week gliding will seem a piece of cake compared to that!

I cant wait to start now, shame I've got to wait till after Christmas, but I suppose its only 5 weeks.....

BackPacker

25th Nov 2009, 17:31

Why wait until Christmas?

Just got to the gliding club next Saturday or Sunday. Unless the weather is horrible, there probably will be activity there. In fact, most clubs will have some sort of mechanism (either call a number or visit a website) that will tell you whether they're going to be launching that day.

Show up, tell them you're enrolled in a course starting Christmas and that you want to sample the atmosphere. You'll probably be able to hang around all day, talk to the people there, watch the launching and landing in action (so you know what kind of gloves you need, if nothing else) and if you're lucky you'll be squeezed into the schedule for a trial flight anyway.

If you talk to the right person you can probably pick up your joining pack right there and then too. Gives you something to read over the next few weeks.

PW Cooper

25th Nov 2009, 19:58

Chillindian
I was at Seighford today. If you didnt know already we operate Sat,Sun, Wed all year plus Fri approx late March to end Oct as well as several full weeks throughout the summer months.
As for maps, I supply the members with the Southern 1/2 million when each edition comes out. I forget when the next one is due but I put an email out to all members when the time comes and comes at less then normal prices.
The previously mentioned book advice is fine - some people prefer Piggott, some the Stewart books. Oh and a sub to Sailplane and Gliding well worth it.
This weekends weather looks great (for this time of year!) so come on down and get started!
Enjoy

ZeBedie

25th Nov 2009, 21:52

catsfive you failed to notice the full stop in the sentence of mine which you quoted and thus totally misunderstood me! I think we are in agreement that he doesn't need to take anything more than warm dry cloths and his lunch.

Arclite01

26th Nov 2009, 07:23

I'd suggest take everything if it's going to be in the car boot !!

Used to put it in a large holdall that I would take in and out of the car as required (still do it now with my power flying gear (inc tools). I don't fly with it but it's useful to have with you that's for sure. No one has mentioned pens either - never seemed to have one, and small torch is useful.

cheers

Arc

chillindan

26th Nov 2009, 08:46

PW Cooper - I'd love to get started this weekend, however the deal I have agreed with my partner dictates that we get Christmas out of the way first :(

Myself and my kids might come down Saturday morning to watch though, and just for me to see what goes on when you are flying etc.

What sort of time do you start (weather permitting of course!)?

cats_five

26th Nov 2009, 09:32

Maybe your partner would like to try gliding as well? :)

chillindan

26th Nov 2009, 10:18

I have suggested it and she didnt back away from the idea... Would be good because then we could go down to the club gliding!

oversteer

26th Nov 2009, 12:19

Nobody has mentioned the rather essential sunglasses :cool: even in the depths of winter you'll need a pair, especially as the sun starts getting lower earlier in the day.

Keep a couple of pairs in the bag and get a neck strap so you can hang them around your neck, preferably not too expensive ones as you're guaranteed to leave them in the glider / bus / under a buggy wheel etc etc.

Winter gliding fashion: Airfields are muddy, cold, wet, windy places in winter! Thick jacket, fleece jumper, thermal t-shirt and leggings and outdoor trousers, long/thick socks and boots. I swap the thick jacket for a thin windproof one when flying, and if it's not too muddy, boots for trainers (but remember you have to walk to the glider, and when you bring it back). Warm hat and gloves essential, waterproof if snowy/dewy. You will have to kneel on the grass / pick up muddy ropes. I don't wear gloves in the cockpit, but if you do, wear thin ones.

What gliders does your club have? I find the ASK-13 has room in the cockpit for big boots, as long as they don't interfere with your control, but scrape mud off first (ask the instructor to do a loop to show you why). It's a bit tighter in the ASK-21 though, your club won't be happy if you get mud all over the seats.

Gliders aren't very well sealed, and in K13s it seems that cold air blows straight up your legs, so hope the fashion police aren't about and tuck those trousers into your socks!

Don't get too bulky with clothing when you're in the cockpit, you'll want to move freely - but remember when you land you'll be walking the glider back to the launch point, could be a 5 minute walk and if it's bitterly cold you'll wish you had that extra fleece/windproof jacket!

Post again in Spring for the Summer collection :ok:

Good luck!

Arclite01

26th Nov 2009, 13:36

someone else has already mentioned a flask - big one and cups to share at the launch point - will make you popular :-)

Oh - and don't forget your cheque book........................:}

Arc

chillindan

26th Nov 2009, 13:55

Thanks again for all these tip folks!

I think the club have 2 two seat gliders, grob twin 2s?

Staffordshire Gliding Club - Fleet (http://www.staffordshiregliding.co.uk/fleet.html)

cats_five

27th Nov 2009, 11:22

<snip>
What gliders does your club have? I find the ASK-13 has room in the cockpit for big boots, as long as they don't interfere with your control, but scrape mud off first (ask the instructor to do a loop to show you why). It's a bit tighter in the ASK-21 though, your club won't be happy if you get mud all over the seats.
<snip>

Was under the impression a loop was a positive-G manouver all the way round, where as a push-over following a launch failure can be a different kettle of fish...

BackPacker

27th Nov 2009, 13:04

Was under the impression a loop was a positive-G manouver all the way round

Theoretically, yes, but if you want to make the loop nicely round (which wins points in a competition) you usually have to float a bit at the top. That might mean zero or slightly negative G's.

gpn01

27th Nov 2009, 23:03

Theoretically, yes, but if you want to make the loop nicely round (which wins points in a competition) you usually have to float a bit at the top. That might mean zero or slightly negative G's.

Bit of thread creep I know but....If you need to push negative at the top of a loop...it ain't a loop! (unless you're pushing into a pretty serious headwind).

XL319

27th Nov 2009, 23:05

Lots of waiting around and very little flying i've found at most gliding school's i've been too. Much prefer powered.

cats_five

28th Nov 2009, 07:31

It's the helping while you wait that (in part) makes gliding much more affordable than power flying.

chillindan

28th Nov 2009, 12:53

Well, I've been down to the Gliding club today to have a look at what goes on. There were about a dozen members there and they all made me and the kids feel very welcome. We went down to the launch point to watch the gliders taking off, and also what goes on in between. There was a good sense of teamwork with each of the members helping to launch and recover the gliders as well as working the radio and driving the winch.

I didnt realise how steep the climb is for winch launches, it looks really good! Also saw a couple of motor gliders (privately owned) doing circuits as well.

I'm getting excited now, cant wait for January...

tggzzz

31st Dec 2009, 18:41

Well, I've been down to the Gliding club today to have a look at what goes on. There were about a dozen members there and they all made me and the kids feel very welcome.
Don't forget that "although the minimum age for solo flying is 16, younger members can still learn before this age". Ask the CFI about when they can have their first trial lesson and when they can seriously start learning. It helps if they can see out and can reach the rudder pedals (my 4' 11" daughter uses several cushions :) I didnt realise how steep the climb is for winch launches, it looks really good!
The stronger the wind, the steeper the climb. My daughter thought aerotow was OK, but a single winch launch hooked her!
I'm getting excited now, cant wait for January...
Have fun. When (not if :) you feel you are making negative progress, talk to other members - they'll say "Hmmm. Yes. I remember that stage".

cats_five

31st Dec 2009, 19:16

Thankfully we have professional drivers at my club - the only real launch failure I've had was at another club with a member driving the winch. It was the scary sort we never practise... :eek:

However the rest sounds just as it should be, and it's January tomorrow. :)

Blues&twos

2nd Jan 2010, 19:58

I will be taking my first glider flight in the new year too. I've flown a bit before (PA28s, Cessnas, a twin and more recently a Pitts - all under instruction). I'm looking forward to the new non-powered experience, and am curious as to whether aerotow or winch launches would be better value for money (I understand winch launches are cheaper). What are the pros/cons of each??

Cheers.

BackPacker

2nd Jan 2010, 20:38

I've never done an aerotow, only a winch launch (and hundreds of powered aircraft take-offs), but I think you can safely say that winch launches are a lot more exciting!

They're most likely cheaper too, in general, since you're only heaving the glider in the air, not the glider plus the tow aircraft. Less energy needed, less cost. Simple. And if the winch has a large number of spools (the one we used had six) the cycle time can be much shorter, allowing you to launch more gliders in less time.

Disadvantages of a winch vs. a tow: The height that you can obtain with a winch launch is essentially a certain percentage of the field length. Around the 50% mark I'd say - we flew from a 1000m field and obtained heights of around 500 meters, depending on the headwind. And the release point is always more or less above the location of the winch. With an aerotow you can obtain any altitude you want (although high = expensive) and the driver can drop you off right below that good-looking cumulus cloud.

Aerotows can also be used to retrieve aircraft after having landed "out".

On Glide

2nd Jan 2010, 22:52

I would also recommend something inspriational to read when the weather's been duff for a few weeks on the trot and solo seems a long way away. The first gliding book I read was 'On Being a Bird' by Philip Wills - a great book of gliding days gone by and adventure - I'd recommend this to you. I happened across my copy in a secondhand bookshop aged 14 but you should be able to find a copy online fairly cheaply (or perhaps borrow from the library).

Have fun!

Jim59

2nd Jan 2010, 23:42

Disadvantages of a winch vs. a tow: The height that you can obtain with a winch launch is essentially a certain percentage of the field length. Around the 50% mark I'd say -

Not if the wind is strong enough - if it is fairly strong you can 'kite' up during which the winch either stops pulling in the cable or even lets it out. Not all winches are happy doing this though and if they have a 'fluid flywheel' coupling it can overheat and the thermal plug fail - spraying hydraulic oil everywhere. I've had nearly 2,700' on a 3,500' winch run - a bit more than 50%!

BackPacker

3rd Jan 2010, 10:57

I've once done a parapente intro day, where they used a winch as well. One of the techniques they used to gain additional height was a stepped launch, where you would be winch-launched as normal. But at the point where you would normally let go of the wire, they gave you slack so that you could turn around, fly the length of the field (and then some) back, turn around once more, and get winched in for some more height gain. This could go on essentially indefinitely (until the wire would run out), although after a while you needed to be really careful or otherwise the wire would get tangled in the barbed wire and the trees that separated the launch field from the surrounding fields.

Do they do this with gliders too? Or is this impossible due to the way the coupling mechanism is designed?

ARobin

3rd Jan 2010, 12:47

Do they do this with gliders too? Or is this impossible due to the way the coupling mechanism is designed?
Impossible because the hook mechanism is designed to come off if the cable is pulled backwards, plus it's probably quite dangerous to.

ProfChrisReed

3rd Jan 2010, 16:11

I'm looking forward to the new non-powered experience, and am curious as to whether aerotow or winch launches would be better value for money (I understand winch launches are cheaper). What are the pros/cons of each??

You're just starting out, so I think that you first few flights should be aerotows. I've taught students on their early flights, and a winter winch launch (though exciting) doesn't give enough time in the air for you have more than a couple of minutes controlling the aircraft before the instructor has to take over for circuit and landing. Even though you've flown before, the handling is quite different and so I'd recommend a couple of aerotows to get your hand in.

All this changes if you are winching on to a ridge - if the ridge is working, hours of flight are possible.

Once you can handle the aircraft, then winching is probably best for most of your flights. You need to learn circuits and landing in an aircraft without the option to go around, and the winch is most cost effective for that.

When you move on to spinning, you'll need to aerotow again.

However, your instructor will be best placed to advise you - when I was learning (which I did in the winter) I was discouraged from taking too many aerotows because they were not cost-effective for what I needed to learn. It's not just a matter of money, but also time. On the short winter days it's usually poor light which stops play, and a club can get in at least twice as many winch launches as aerotows per aircraft.

In conclusion, first couple of flights aerotow, then take the instructor's advice (which will probably be mainly to winch).

Blues&twos

3rd Jan 2010, 20:23

Thanks everyone! Aerotows it will be to get me going then!
:ok:

cats_five

4th Jan 2010, 08:20

Thanks everyone! Aerotows it will be to get me going then!

It will be what your instructor says it will be, assuming you are flying at a club where there is a choice!

fisbangwollop

4th Jan 2010, 09:15

Depends where you are gliding and what your intention after launch. The winch launch far cheaper but probablly only take you to about 1200ft depending on strip/cable length, the aerotow more expensive but will take you to 1K 1.5K 2k 3k or whatever you willing to pay for...the higher you go the more you pay!!!

I spent many years at Portmoak, in general and if the wind direction good for the two hills "Bishop" and "Benarty" close by a winch launch to about 1200ft would be sufficient to give you enough height to make the hill and its assosiated lift and then stay airborne all day if you wish.

On days when wind direction/strength not good for hill lift well then an aerotow to 2000ft a better option to go and find some thermal activity.

Both differant skills needed to use the two methods of launch but both well worth getting used to.

Enjoy your gliding, a great sport with great charachters around to meet.....just prepare for long hard days and wrap up well....:ok::cool::ok:

chrisN

4th Jan 2010, 10:52

Cats, not all gliding clubs or instructors are as dogmatic as you suggest. Many will allow the student pilot to choose the method of launching, though they may offer advice as to which is most suitable on the day for the stage that the student pilot is at.

Chris Reed beat me to it with what my advice would be for a PPL starting a conversion to gliding in the flatlands and winter, with no thermal or ridge soaring available.

Chris N.

cats_five

4th Jan 2010, 12:08

Yes, put it very badly. What I was trying to say is to remember the instructor has the final word, where there is a choice. Was having visions of the person starting bouncing up and demanding an aerotow rather than asking for one - again probably just badly put here...

Blues&twos

4th Jan 2010, 16:54

Yes, of course!

I just wanted to know what the differences were should I have the choice later on! That's me putting it badly too....

Looking forward to it.

cats_five

4th Jan 2010, 18:55

BTW where are you going to fly gliders?

chillindan

4th Jan 2010, 19:00

Hi all again. Well January is here and I've just started my new job! So once I have got the first couple of weeks out of the way (and hopefully the weather improves!) I will be heading down to my local gliding club to take my first flights.

Santa was very kind and bought me a copy of Derek Piggots book 'Beginning Gliding' which I have started to read.

I also had a fair few kind folks giving me money for Christmas which has all gone into my 'Gliding Account' so I am now champing at the bit. I've got the enthusiasm, the availability and now the funds!

I'll update you on my experience once I've been up...

cats_five

5th Jan 2010, 07:25

<snip>
I'll update you on my experience once I've been up...

One you have thawed out that is. A day at the gliding club is a chilling experience right now! Wrap up really, really well!

amostcivilpilot

5th Jan 2010, 14:30

Drifting through the forums as you do, I stumbled across this delightful thread :ok:

With almost 9000 hours of fixed wing and helicopters I can honestly say that the limited ammount of gliding that I have done (Silver C) was some of the most memorable flying of all. It is an experience that everyone should try if only once, and one that should be mandatory for all pilots of other airborne devices ;)

There is nothing quite like the first winch and tow launch and the experience of almost silent flight followed by the fabulous rumble of the skid and wheel on grass when landing.

As an exercise in judgement and development of flying skills it cannot be beaten. As a fixed wing instructor it gave me a great insight into developing my students PFL technique. And for engine off autorotations in helicopters, the ability to judge the correct flare and touch down attitude I feel can be related to landing a glider, especially a K13 which I always found required positive handling to get the touchdown correct and smooth.

I would also like to comment on the amazing encouragement and advice given to chillindan by everyone who has contributed their posts. It reminds me of why I wanted to fly and why flying clubs can be so much fun. It is about the friendship and willingness of people who you have not yet met to go out of their way to mentor someone new and bring them into the flying fold :D Reading this thread makes me wish I could start over again! It is so refreshing to come across this sort of thread rather that the seemingly endless slaging and backstabing which many other posts degenerate into.

Good luck chillindan. Enjoy it. I look forward to reading about how you are getting on.

amcp

Blues&twos

9th Jan 2010, 18:09

cats five - I'll be at Lasham (one day, when the snow's gone).

Edited to say....unless the question was for chillindan, who originated the thread.....sorry CD!!!

cats_five

10th Jan 2010, 07:02

No, it was for you, and I'm sure you will adore it. The flying at Lasham is really well run and they seem to have a great program to help pilots transition from loacl soaring into XC flying. I'm looking forward to my own visit to Lasham this year - had a great time last year and the best flying of the year, apart from a couple of fabulous wave flights.

chillindan

10th Jan 2010, 19:12

Well was originally planning to go down to the gliding club this coming weekend but due to the weather they are closed until at least Sunday for flying.

Guess thats me experiencing my first delay caused by the weather...

Fingers crossed things will improve soon!

SpannerInTheWerks

10th Jan 2010, 20:25

Either:

A wife or girlfriend to take with you and enjoy the sport together; or

A wife or girlfriend who accepts that your hobby will take one day out of the weekend - most weekends - and expects you to be gone early and back (very) late!

Seriously, that was one reason I took up powered flying - at least you were away only half a day (or so!).

Then I became an instructor and it was back to 'gliding hours'.

Luckily my wife accepted the situation and spent the day alone gardening and mowing the lawn - so double wammy for me!

SITW :)

Blues&twos

13th Feb 2010, 20:03

Cats five said:
One you have thawed out that is. A day at the gliding club is a chilling experience right now! Wrap up really, really well!

Had my first experience of gliding today. An hour and a half standing on a cold, windy runway with a bunch of other people dressed up in a hundred layers of antartic clothing watching the cloudbase get lower and lower until flakes of snow started to come down and it was cancelled!

The instructor was good and friendly, the clubhouse was warm afterwards. I have rebooked, potentially for a similar experience next week.

Despite not getting airborne it was curiously enjoyable!

robin

13th Feb 2010, 20:53

gpn01

13th Feb 2010, 21:54

That's gliding

But I'm surprised at your use of the words that you've booked for next week.

Gliding is not something you book for, normally. You show up, put your name on the list and stay all day...... Frustrating, but you'll have a better grounding in piloting skills. You'll learn to criticise other pilot's technique and use that to improve your own.

But this is the best time of the year to start, ready for the better weather

That's not true. Several of the more enlightened clubs provide bookable training (mine certainly does, and possibly was one of the first to introduce it several years ago). You're encouraged to stick around to help out before & after but you're not under any obligation. We tend to find that those who're planning to become soaring pilots and who enjoy the club ethos are more than happy to stay, chat and help out.

robin

13th Feb 2010, 22:12

chillindan

13th Feb 2010, 22:23

Hi all,

We'll if the weather is ok I'll be gliding tomorrow at Seighford so fingers crossed, and I'll post on how I get on!

gpn01

13th Feb 2010, 22:32

I'm in two minds about that

Over the last year I've been to 2 sites to start my return to gliding. Both use the flying list method.

I have been to clubs where you can book a time, but where that happens, unless there is a professional staff, you can find there is no-one there to help.

When I took up power flying I got frustrated that people just turned up for their booking then p*ss*d off. No-one stayed around.

Gliding is a time-consuming, frustrating sport that requires commitment. Even more so than with power flying. It is not something that can easily be booked.

Robin, it's a real shame that you've experienced clubs that have promoted something that they're not equipped to deliver. At my club we have a mix of professional staff and volunteer members. This provides the capability and capacity to deliver what's promised. If you're booked in for an instructional session at 10:00, unless there's problems with the weather or you don't show up, then you'll have a briefing and be flying soon after.

You're right that gliding CAN be a time consuming activity, particularly when compared to the book-turn up-fly-leave approach that power flying schools tend to operate. As I've mentioned in posts on another thread, in the UK gliding is done with a CLUB...which entails a club approach - e.g. collaboration, working together, etc (which is part of the fun that appeals to many). Powered flying is usually done from flying SCHOOLS...which means a more regimented timetable (which works better for some people).

gpn01

13th Feb 2010, 22:35

Hi all,

We'll if the weather is ok I'll be gliding tomorrow at Seighford so fingers crossed, and I'll post on how I get on!

Current forecast is for a light Northerly breeze, quite sunny in places but a bit cold - so wrap up well AND take sunglasses!

Hope you have a great time.

Blues&twos

13th Feb 2010, 22:37

Maybe I should clarify....

My first flight was a gift from my family via a third party "Experiences" company, for which I have to book in advance using a voucher.

From what I saw/overheard during my visit today, the "flying list" system is used for club members, and I believe I'll have to use during the first three months after my first flight (as I'll have temporary membership during this time), and if I chose to become a member after that...

Very friendly bunch, certainly seemed to be plenty of opportunity to get stuck in and help out!

Heady1977

14th Feb 2010, 02:42

Like the OP I've been wanting to take up gliding for the last few years. But because of various reasons have had to make do with only looking up at the sky on my quick visits to the local field (Lasham) on times I've just happened to be in the area.

My New Year resolution this year was that this would be the year. So just after Christmas, I went and bought some gliding study books to tie-myself over until time permits.

I've got one question bugging me though before I commit - will soaring suit me?

To answer that question - I was wanting to go for a soaring flight after the trial flight before committing to the courses, time and expenses.

Does anyone know how I can experience a soaring flight to allow me to answer my nagging question? There doesn't seem to be a "soaring" experience option on any of the web-sites for any of the local glider clubs.

DERG

14th Feb 2010, 06:00

We have a wonderful gliding club here at Sutton Bank east of Thirsk.
I sent my kid there when he was about 15 and he learned stacks of stuff.

It was expensive for us but worth every penny.

A lot of the members had caravans on the site. If I owned a glider the first thing I would do is paint it dayglow orange. That was my only worry.

gpn01

14th Feb 2010, 08:35

Does anyone know how I can experience a soaring flight to allow me to answer my nagging question? There doesn't seem to be a "soaring" experience option on any of the web-sites for any of the local glider clubs.

It's a bit difficult to advertise a "soaring experience" because of the variability of the weather. If you mean staying airborne for longer than a guaranteed 15 minutes then there either needs to be thermals or a hillside with a suitable wind blowing onto it. If you mean flying some distance cross-country (and out of range of the home gliding site) then the conditions need to be suitable to give a fair chance of making it back. It's not generally considered good form to take someone who doesn't have any gliding experience cross-country and land in a field. Likewise many people begin to feel motion sick on their first couple of flights of anything long than 20 minutes, so it's a good idea to not go too far away from the gliding site in case a hasty retreat is needed.

EDIT (after thinking about it!)
Booker GC, who I glide with, offers 1/2 and one day intro courses which will include soaring when conditions permit (try and stop the instructors form climbing in a good thermal!). This might suit your needs:

Here with Booker GC we offer a v (http://www.bookergliding.co.uk/Shop/SHOP_MAIN.htm)

Also, the Club provides the ability for you to do an intro course and if you like it upgrade to a basic or intensive training package. Take a look at the link for details. It's a reasonably sized and friendly club (and I instruct there, so it can't be bad) and is located to the West of London at Wycom,be Air Park (near High Wycombe).

BackPacker

14th Feb 2010, 12:29

If I owned a glider the first thing I would do is paint it dayglow orange.

Not allowed. Any color other than white traps the suns rays, heating up the internal structure. Which is made of composite. Which loses its strength very fast above a certain temperature.

That's why all modern composite gliders (and powered aircraft too, eg. Cirrus, Diamond, Europa) are white.

Likewise many people begin to feel motion sick on their first couple of flights of anything long than 20 minutes,

Yep. Turning in tight circles in a bumpy thermal definitely requires some getting used to.

Seen from the ground up, gliding looks like a real serene activity. But once you're up there trying to hold on to a small thermal, it's bloody hard work. And not quite quiet too.

RatherBeFlying

14th Feb 2010, 14:31

Yep. Turning in tight circles in a bumpy thermal definitely requires some getting used to.It can take getting used to every year. My first flight last year after the checkride was a 300 km attempt. On the way back, my tummy announced it had had enough and I could no longer be as aggressive grabbing thermals as I had been that day.

Fireflye

14th Feb 2010, 17:45

Not allowed. Any color other than white traps the suns rays, heating up the internal structure. Which is made of composite. Which loses its strength very fast above a certain temperature.I'm about to take up gliding and the only two things that I realy fear are a winching incident or a mid-air collision. Following a collision in the mid 90s that claimed a cadet and an instructor, the ATC have had large dayglo orange stripes around the wings of their Vikings, so I wonder why they have them and civvie gliders don't? Though your reasons for not having them make perfect sense.

chillindan

14th Feb 2010, 19:33

Quick update from me while I'm still on a high. Spent the whole day at Seighford today. Everyone was really welcoming and friendly. I had 2 flights. First one was an aerotow to 3000ft in the club K13. Once we released the tow rope the instructer gave me hands on for my first experience of flying in 20 years. It was great, we even found a small thermal and gained a few hundred feet at one point.

The instructor was very calm and gave me loads of encouragement, I got to use the stick and rudder pedals from the start which was a bit tricky but I think I got the idea. After a 27 minute flight the instructor finally took control back from me on finals just before we landed.

Later in the day I also did a winch launch in the Twin Astir which was an amazing sensation. I didnt realise how fast you accelorate for that type of launch.

All in all a great day and I am well and truly bitten by the bug now. Cant wait till next time now!

cats_five

14th Feb 2010, 19:43

Sounds like you had an excellent day and yes, thermals are starting to pop up. On a good day you can ride up to 5,000' airpsace and skill permitting.

For some reason the K13 isn't mentioned on their website.

glider12000

14th Feb 2010, 19:57

Glad you`ve got the bug Dan, Now you`ve taken the first steps, this is when the fun truly begins!

gpn01

14th Feb 2010, 21:20

@ChillinDan - welcome to the highly addictive sport of gliding. Like many other forms of addiction, you'll have highs & lows, a constant desire for your next fix and a willingness to sacrifice you wife/girlfriend to fund your addiction (only kidding!). Hope you continue to have a great time.

@Fireflye
- Conspicuity research undertaken by the RAFGSA and BGA a few years ago (including the use of dayglo and reflective strips) revealed, from what I can recall, no improvement. Indeed there's actually a risk that by having multiple colours you actually camoflage the aircraft - a fact embraced by Von Richthofen who had his aircraft painted in (often quite bright) multiple colours.
- Winching does have inherent risks and that's why safe winch techniques are tought by all BGA clubs in order to mitigate against such risks. Your instructors will spend plenty of time ensuring that you develop a safe technique and that you're able to recover from launch failures promptly and safely.
-Mid-air collisions are unlikely but not impossible. Again thorough training in keeping a good lookout and developing a high level of spatial awareness helps to mitigate the risk.

chillindan

14th Feb 2010, 21:46

No I know they dont mention the K13 on the web, I dont know why I'll have to ask! It was very windy inside it though!

BackPacker

14th Feb 2010, 22:17

Again thorough training in keeping a good lookout and developing a high level of spatial awareness helps to mitigate the risk.

And compared to powered flying, not having a zillion dials and electronic gizmos in the cockpit means you spend more time looking out. Through a very large clear canopy instead of tiny windows. Plus the speeds in gliding are relatively low compared to powered flying. And gliders circle a lot, which means aspect changes which make them more conspicous than somebody on a straight and level track.

cats_five

15th Feb 2010, 08:46

The results of the conspicuity tests are available online:

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Data/glider-conspicuity-study.pdf

Blues&twos

15th Feb 2010, 09:47

Noticed that although the gliders I saw flying over the weekend were entirely bright red, once they're up in air on a dull, overcast day they become silhouettes, like all the other aircraft.

The "confusing" multiple stripes and shapes scheme was also tried out by the Royal Navy I believe as it broke up the distinctive outline of the ship and made it harder to spot.

PW Cooper

15th Feb 2010, 20:12

Dan
We use the Grob Twin 2 as the normal training glider but the K13 still helps in certain training roles for the club aswell as filling in on the fleet if one of the other Grobs is on maintenance.
Glad you enjoyed your day. I will be at the club this Sat pm and Sun too plus the following weekend so maybe see you then.
Cheers
Paul

chillindan

15th Feb 2010, 20:23

I enjoyed flying both, although I don't know why but I kind of liked the K13. Still as long as I get to fly I don't mind. Don't think I'm gonna be there this weekend as I have prior engagements, but I might try and get down either wednesday or next wednesday. If not it'll be the following weekend for me.

Still can't wait till next time!

Fireflye

15th Feb 2010, 21:10

- Winching does have inherent risks and that's why safe winch techniques are tought by all BGA clubs in order to mitigate against such risks. Your instructors will spend plenty of time ensuring that you develop a safe technique and that you're able to recover from launch failures promptly and safely.
-Mid-air collisions are unlikely but not impossible. Again thorough training in keeping a good lookout and developing a high level of spatial awareness helps to mitigate the risk. I understand the risks and appreciate the efforts of the BGA and instructors to minimise them, it's just that the collision that prompted the ATC to introduce the dayglo scheme happened to be at the same VGS that I attended, a couple of years after I left the ATC. It's not putting me off by any means, just making me that little more conscious.

The results of the conspicuity tests are available online:

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Data/gl...uity-study.pdf (http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Data/glider-conspicuity-study.pdf)Interesting. Seems that dayglo is pretty useless but there may be some value in having a black underside for thermalling and mirror film for overall conspicuity.

gpn01

15th Feb 2010, 21:23

I understand the risks and appreciate the efforts of the BGA and instructors to minimise them, it's just that the collision that prompted the ATC to introduce the dayglo scheme happened to be at the same VGS that I attended, a couple of years after I left the ATC. It's not putting me off by any means, just making me that little more conscious.
.

That's no bad thing. Anything that encourages you to keep an extra sharp lookout will help reduce the risk.

Blues&twos

16th Feb 2010, 08:58

Noticed the gliders at Lasham are fitted with FLARM units. A bit like TCAS (put simplistically) as I understand, only useful for warning of other FLARM equipped aircraft. The feeling about these from some was ambivalent - might be disadvantageous in giving you a false sense of security, but on the positive side, a useful addition to a good lookout (on the basis that no-one is infallible).

Blues&twos

21st Feb 2010, 21:31

Had my first glider flight at the weekend. Very professionally done by Lasham. Aerotowed in a K13 to 2500', then did a quick bit of stall training before a good old fly around. Flight was good although no thermals, and it looks like I'll need to get used to using a bit more footrest...erm...sorry, rudder.....
Seemed to be more yaw component in the steep turns than I'm used to in powered aircraft (that rudder thing again)..is this my imagination, or is this actually the case with gliders? Forgot to ask the instructor.

I'll be getting the most out of my free three months membership if all goes to plan!
:ok:

BackPacker

21st Feb 2010, 21:51

Seemed to be more yaw component in the steep turns than I'm used to in powered aircraft (that rudder thing again)..is this my imagination, or is this actually the case with gliders?

Absolutely. Long wings will do that for you. Coming from a power background myself, I found that this was by far the hardest thing to (un)learn. That, and judging circuit height/approach/landing flare.

Actually, what you'll find is that it's not the steep turns per se that need a lot of rudder. It's the rolling into and out of a turn that creates the adverse yaw and needs a lot of rudder. But once you're in the turn with a stable bank angle, the need for rudder is a lot less.

chillindan

24th Feb 2010, 19:20

Been up to Seighford again today and managed three winch launches this afternoon as the weather picked up. Things seem to be progressing nicely we did some stall/recovery exercises which were fun (especially the 30 degree stall) and then when I was on approach during my second flight of the day, waiting for the instructor to say 'I have control', he instead said 'follow through on the brakes' and I ended up doing my first (rather heavy) landing!

Whilst completely unexpected it was a big thrill. I had to turn to the Pete as we got out and say 'did I just land that?'

On my last flight today the landing was much better, but Pete still did the brakes for me. I'm loving flying, should've done it years ago!

oversteer

25th Feb 2010, 14:31

If you liked stalls, you'll love spins!

keep at it :ok:

Hopefully the weather is slowly on the turn now. Stayed up near 3 hrs on Saturday, thermalling - could have been longer, but I am still in "winter mode", so hadn't bought any water or .. related provisions ;)

chillindan

25th Feb 2010, 18:40

Well I was pleasantly surprised to be able to fly at all yesterday. Fingers crossed we have good weather next week as I am itching to carry on!

cats_five

26th Feb 2010, 09:21

Yes, it's summer. It's stopped snowing and started raining.

chillindan

29th Mar 2010, 20:09

Hi all,

I had a bad experience yesterday. Went down to the club to fly and was nervous all day before I flew. I have not felt like this before and don't know why as I had a great time last week when I was gliding. The only thing I could put it down to was that I knew I would be flying with an instructor I had not flown with before...

I was so nervous I nearly went home and didnt fly, but I stuck around and when my time came went up with the CFI for the first time. I don't know what went wrong but my co-ordination was completely out, and then when we were on approach and about to land I completely failed to round out in time and had to be rescued by the CFI on the controls. I've had a few bumpy landings before but never had the instructor grab the controls off me.

I know I'm only new to this but would appreciate some input from any of you really? I feel like everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I made a better approach next time, but still missed the round out. The ground seemed to come up very fast and again the CFI took the controls to ensure we didnt hit the ground hard. Through all of this the instructor was extremely good with me, very patiant, and explained quite a few things I've not properly understood before.

Just to give you all some background I've had 14 flights now, in total about 1hr 40 mins in the air. Last week my landings were good, in similar conditions, similar wind (although I was in the Grob Twin last time, this time I was in the K13).

Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts or can offer any advice as to what has happened to me, or why things suddenly seem to be going badly when they have been going so well, then I am listening!

Thanks,
D

BackPacker

29th Mar 2010, 20:15

Chillindan, you sound suspiciously like a completely normal human being.

It's entirely normal to be nervous every now and then. That keeps you sharp. It's also entirely normal to have a bad day every now and then. And it's very good to bring things like this in the open, analyse it and learn from it.

Sleep on it a couple of nights, leave the bad feeling behind, and take the things you learned from yesterday with you. You'll be just fine.:ok:

robin

29th Mar 2010, 20:46

Sounds like target fixation....

You're getting to the point where the difficulties seem to creep in. I was told you need to make a decent final turn at the right height then keep speed and attitude right.

What you are looking for is the point where the green of the grass changes and you can see individual tufts of grass. That's when you ease back into the hold-off.

It might be worth asking your instructor to fly the next approach and landing and observe the visual clues for yourself. Too often the pressure to do it all yourself means that you don't get a chance to observe.

ProfChrisReed

29th Mar 2010, 21:09

All this is perfectly normal. It happens to everyone when learning to fly gliders.

Went down to the club to fly and was nervous all day before I flew ... The only thing I could put it down to was that I knew I would be flying with an instructor I had not flown with before.

That will disappear once you've flown with a few different instructors.

A tip - you will find that different instructors work better for you at different stages of your training. Unless yours is a big club you probably can't choose, being stuck with whoever is on duty that day, but it helps to recognise this. If there are two or more instructing, you could always ask to fly with X today (something like "I find X's explanation of [whatever you're working on] easiest to understand" would be tactful). But don't not fly because only Y is instructing - ask to work on something different, and you might find that Y is the best for that (for you).

I don't know what went wrong but my co-ordination was completely out, and then when we were on approach and about to land I completely failed to round out in time and had to be rescued by the CFI on the controls.

Very common. You did landings last week, now you're working on (say) stalls and, guess what, you've forgotten how to land. Brain overload. Keep at it. It suddenly comes together and you can't imagine why you ever had a problem.

I made a better approach next time, but still missed the round out. The ground seemed to come up very fast and again the CFI took the controls to ensure we didnt hit the ground hard.

I went through a phase of this - my instructors must have had nerves of steel to let me continue and land the thing. The problem is usually that you are looking at the point on the runway at which the glider is aiming. The trick is to switch your attention to the far end of the runway (or at least half way along it) at around 50ft, and start very gently easing back on the stick about then. If you're looking at the runway in front of the nose you can't judge height, and suddenly the ground rushes you. If you're looking into the distance you can see the aircraft settling and ease back on the stick as needed. I suggest you ask your instructor about this (explain the problem next time before you fly), and maybe ask for a prompt to move your gaze at the right time.

Last week my landings were good, in similar conditions, similar wind (although I was in the Grob Twin last time, this time I was in the K13).

Gliders are supersensitive to tiny changes in conditions. As an example, a 10 degree change in wind direction might put you in curlover from a hedge or some trees, so that you're flying in sinking air for the last 25 ft - that makes the ground arrive pretty rapidly. Also, a K13 flies nothing like a Grob Twin - if you were doing the same things (as of course you would be at 1.40 hrs), it's no wonder it didn't behave the same way.

Overall, glider flying is about making constant tiny adjustments to keep things looking "about right" (a phrase you will already have heard). It really is just a matter of experience - eventually things like when to round out become entrenched and don't require deep concentration, and that allows you more brain space to think about other aspects of your flying.

If it helps, I started gliding aged 40 and went solo after about 9 hrs (and lots of launches and landings) - about average for my age. It wasn't until about 6 hrs that I had real control of the aircraft, and then it just all seemed to come together at once.

Fly-by-Wife

29th Mar 2010, 21:22

The problem is usually that you are looking at the point on the runway at which the glider is aiming. The trick is to switch your attention to the far end of the runway (or at least half way along it) at around 50ft, and start very gently easing back on the stick about then. If you're looking at the runway in front of the nose you can't judge height, and suddenly the ground rushes you. If you're looking into the distance you can see the aircraft settling and ease back on the stick as needed.

As prof. Reed says, looking a long way ahead is the key - once you are over the landing area, switch your focus to the far end of the field.

Another thing that helps your landings is to actually change your thinking and try NOT to land! It sounds silly, but you should actually be aiming to keep flying as long as possible - "aim at the ground and miss for as long as possible"! Keep the wings level and tracking straight, just let the glider settle gently - it will land itself, provided you keep it flying!

Forcing it down will just end up in hard landings, bounces and balloons.

So for good landings, try not to land! :ok:

FBW

tggzzz

30th Mar 2010, 00:07

Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts or can offer any advice as to what has happened to me, or why things suddenly seem to be going badly when they have been going so well, then I am listening! I always tell people just starting to learn that they will progress rapidly at first, then plateau, then feel as if they are making negative progress.. When, not if, that happens they should talk to someone more experienced, who will then say something to the effect "yup, I remember that stage".

BTW, this kind of thing doesn't stop once you're solo, nor bronze, nor silver. The only difference is that experienced pilots have more expensive mistakes :)

cats_five

30th Mar 2010, 07:42

14 flights really isn't very many, you had changed glider types and you were nervous about flying with a different instructor, so lots of things working subetly against you.

Learning any new skill is very rarely a straight progression, St Vitus dance is far more common especially with older learners.

It all sounds very normal to me, and I'm crossing my fingers the weather improves so you can go back and have a good day.

BTW if you never ever get nervous I'd worry about that much, much more.

gpn01

30th Mar 2010, 08:46

You're going to have some good days and some bad ones. The trick is to turn the bad ones into useful learning points (thereby turning them into good days!). As you progress you're sometimes going to feel that you're going backwards. This is ok - it could be that your expectations of your abilities are increasing slightly faster than the rate at which the skills are becoming embedded. Don't worry about this - it just means that you're learning! Don't worry about flying with different instructors either - they're not ogres who're trying to catch you out. They're genuinely there to help you progress and share their knowledge and experience. The CFI is no different - they're just likely to have even more experience and so may be able to help take you that little further outside of your personal comfort zone (or put a little bit more pressure on by throwing in the odd extra curve ball just to see how you handle things). If you feel a bit nervous when you're flying with an instructor and that forces you to think about how you're flying and what options you have if an 'eventuality' occurs ("what if they do this to me...") then keep that thought and take it with you when you're solo.

chrisN

30th Mar 2010, 09:18

After 40 years of gliding, over 2000 flights, including some instructing, I have long been of the opinion that we try and teach landings too early. In the case of this original poster, to expect to be able to land properly, consistently, after only 14 flights, is far too demanding.

It is quite a while after somebody has started to learn flying before you can even fly straight and level consistently without thinking too hard about it.

A good landing can only come after a good approach, which means having had first a good circuit; having a good appreciation of what the picture should look like during the approach, round out, and landing; and being able not only to fly a straight approach at a constant speed, with judicious use of air brake to maintain the correct flight path, but at the end be able to change attitude gradually during the flare, and change speed, and keep it at the right height above ground during the hold off. After 14 flights?

How much time in 14 flights has been spent on approaching? A few seconds each time. How much time on rounding out and holding off? Even fewer seconds each time.

Some of the 14 landings will have been done by different instructors, and may not look the same each time anyway, with different wind speeds or possibly for other reasons. Probably none of the landings the pilot himself has done during those 14 flights has been the same as each other. There is no chance of knowing yet what the picture should look like, and being able to reproduce it consistently.

For what it's worth, it wasn't until shortly before my going solo on my 70th flight that I was anything like getting consistent good landings. For a long time after that, if I was under pressure for some reason and had not had a good approach leading to a good landing, all too often the landings were not good.

I think the worst thing that happened to me was an instructor talking me through a landing on my fifth launch, writing in my book that I could do my own landings, after which I probably did 50 all different and most of them wrong.

So don't get discouraged, you are normal. Your training is normal, but not what I think it should be. I'm used to being in a minority of one of the gliding world, so don't expect most people to agree with me.

Just my two pen'th.

Chris N.

RatherBeFlying

30th Mar 2010, 14:21

I echo those who say that 14 landings are next to nothing. chrisN says it very well and the previous posters have commented well.

One of the things I do with students having trouble judging the flare before getting to first solo is to take them up the TV tower so they can see where they can make the transition to seeing the individual blades of grass.

mary meagher

30th Mar 2010, 15:09

Dan, me old son.

You are going to have to be firm with those folks.

Say right out loud, I would like to stick with one kind of glider.

So do your training in the 13 or in glass, but changing about is not a good idea at all. Okay, the instructor in the back seat gets changed about, some are getting on a bit and fixed in their ways (like me!). But you have to tell him (almost never her, alas)what you prefer.

I didn't start gliding until I was 50, (last week, I tell my students), and it took 65 airtows to achieve solo. And to learn the landings I had to cheat, and do a bit of that in a power plane. Consider a motor glider if they have one up there, BUT

Very likely you are not ready for landings yet. Get confident in handling in the upper air, practice, practice. Show that you can maintain an approach attitude and speed. Do a coordinated turn, maintaining speed.
Use airbrakes, maintaining attitude. etc. etc etc.

Then ask the instructor to demonstrate "landings at altitude"

This works for my students. In a K13, at altitude, we set approach speed, we set half brakes, we pretend we are near the ground, and slowly ease back, ease back, ease back, and having "landed" recover from that and do it again. And again.

Then the instructor demonstrates the landing. Nailing the approach speed is vital, if you cant maintain an approach speed at altitude,work on that first. After watching the instructor do a landing, you just go up together again right away and do it again, only this time it is YOU!

I feel that instructors try too hard to provide "value" for students, and do not do sufficient demonstrations.

I also nearly chickened out altogether, the first time my instructor demonstrated unusual attitudes, but came back. Again. And again. If I could do it, you can too. Go for it!

Mary

chillindan

30th Mar 2010, 18:52

Thanks to all for the advice and words of encouragement. I was hoping to go flying tomorrow but it looks like winter is back....

I will keep at it, I do feel better today, and was really looking for confirmation that this happens to other people as well. I have wanted to learn to fly for such a long time that I have plenty of motivation, but my confidence just took a bit of a knock after sunday.

I will try some of the things you have all suggested especially the practice approach and landings at altitude. I'm also going to get my instructor to do the next landing and also to talk me through what he is doing and when, so that I can take my time to look around and try and appreciate the changing view etc.

Thanks to all the folks on here for your time!

cats_five

30th Mar 2010, 19:22

<snip>
was really looking for confirmation that this happens to other people as well. I have wanted to learn to fly for such a long time that I have plenty of motivation, but my confidence just took a bit of a knock after sunday.

<snip>

Oh yes, it happens to other people! I had all the upper air flying fairly quickly but won't say how many flights it took to get the landings right. What I will say is that it took input from several different instructors. It was also an advantage that we only had glass at my club - I found flying a K13 some time after soloing a quite 'interesting' experience'.

Also, you have wanted to fly so much for so long, and I feel that is putting more pressure on yourself and too much pressure IMHO doesn't help.

You are 34, so are likely to go solo faster than old folks like Mary and I did, but the only people I know who have solod a glider in less than 40 flights have had substantial previous flying experience - one for example was a former RAF fast jet jockey and CFS instructor. Us lesser mortals take longer - much longer in some cases!

ProfChrisReed

30th Mar 2010, 20:28

ChrisN is almost entirely right, except for the part about consistently good landings.

With nearly 500 hrs and a fair few cross-country miles under my belt, the best I can achieve is consistently adequate landings. Even then, around 1 in 10 is less well-controlled than I like, though still safe. I think it's a matter of constant practice - when I was Basic Instructing I did lots of good landings because I did lots of landings each day I flew.

But you should aim at consistently good landings, because if you fall short at least it will be acceptable. Just don't beat yourself up if they're not perfect every time.

You will find some consolation over the next month watching the highly experienced pilots who have not flown much over the winter - many of their landings will be rather untidy to say the least.

Piltdown Man

30th Mar 2010, 22:38

You are trying too hard. You'll get where you are going to eventually, but you have to remember that you go gliding for fun. It's not the RAF and neither is it an airline. A reasonable landing is good enough. Reasonable speed control is also good enough. What you have to have cracked is good trim control and an excellent lookout (then the rest will be easy, as you will see). Amazingly, good trim control is obtained by all things, a good lookout. Why? Because when you get to your target attitude, you hold it visually (not by using ANY instrument) and move the trim to zero the trim forces. I'll also bet a pound to a penny that you hold the control column with a fierce grip. How should you hold it? Just like you'd hold a smelly old tramp's willy - finger tips only!

PM

astir 8

31st Mar 2010, 07:43

Don't worry - like almost every sport/skill one goes through a phase of thinking that you've cracked it and then it all goes to worms for a bit. Golf is a classic example (so I'm told!)

With gliding it's the same - you crack the operation of the stick. Then that difficult b******* in the back makes you start using the rudder & the stick control goes haywire for a while & then it all comes together. I expect you've done that bit.

Then when you've cracked landings with him doing the brakes, he makes you do the brakes and it all goes to pot again (but only for a while). So don't take it to heart, have fun.

Swapping from glass to K13 & back does not strike me as beneficial though. Try to stick with one or the other if possible.

chillindan

31st Mar 2010, 19:40

Well you are right about most of what you say, but you've lost that pound I'm afraid ;) I am pretty gentle with the control column, in fact Sunday I was too gentle and ended up using too much rudder and not enough stick, although I'm told this is probably because of the twin to k13 issue. Some more experienced colleagues have pointed out that the twin, if anything, is under ruddered and the k13 has a massive great big rudder. So when I put a bootfull of rudder in, in the k13, and not much stick.......

My turns were awful, but at least I know what I was doing wrong! :)

gpn01

31st Mar 2010, 20:54

Piltdown Man

31st Mar 2010, 22:47

The yaw string is a useful device, but when learning to fly, it's far better to look out at the horizon and use that as a reference for rudder application. It gets the pilot's eyes outside and the real horizon is very easy to use as a reference. May I suggest that the reason you are not using the correct amount of rudder is because you haven't learnt to look out properly (or rolling on a heading hasn't yet been demonstrated to you) and not because of a change of type. Flying a different glider does set some people back, but generally not for long. When you have the correct proportion of aileron to rudder, the glider will roll on its longitudinal axis and there will be very little yaw. Next time, when you turn (after your lookout) look to the horizon and apply the controls. Too little rudder and the nose will yaw away from the turn. Too much and you'll get yaw into the turn.

As for the effectiveness of the rudder, well anything you are likely to fly in the near future will have enough rudder. I say that after having flown a K13, Twin Astir, Acro, Janus, ASH25, K21, T21, T31, Caproni Calif etc. Our German friends have pretty good designers and test pilots (even Grob - I'm not a fan. But flying one is is like spending a night with a Kangarillapig, you'd do it but wouldn't tell your mates afterwards) and make sure that their products are properly controllable. Otherwise it wouldn't be sold.

PM