Blades on planes.....are they legal??

[lowcostdolly]

A subject of much discussion of late but no actual conclusion.

A recent post on an unrelated thread re a diverted flight has prompted me to post this topic however it has been the subject of much contraversy on some SLF forums to the point where I'm now :confused: as crew. This is despite the security regs I have to adhere to every day as crew and when I travel as SLF as well

Would appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that blades other than safety razors are not allowed on UK flights and knives AKA blades are in fact illegal.

I believe as do some SLF that blades (other than safety razors) are illegal on flights departing from the UK. My terms of reference are:

The prevention of crime act 1953 section 1
The criminal justice act 1988 section 139
Article 77 of the air navigation orders re the commanders authority re safety. That includes instructions given by the company/DFT which he has to enforce.
Information given on the CAA/DFT websites re prohibited articles
All other info on individual company websites
All signage at check in desks and security channelsThe 2 acts above are really clear about carrying anything with a blade that could be interpreted as a weapon in a public place without good reason which the onus is on the csrrier to prove. An airport and a commercial flight is a public place.

Yes there are some exemptions to this act but the CAA/DFT/ individual carriers make it plain throughout their websites, notices at airports/questions re check in.....they do not want blades on a plane!!!

Now we still have some frequent flyers who think they are so exempt they brag openly on this forum on what they have managed/will take on planes!

Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.

For the avoidance of doubt checked hold baggage as the FF's will know is subject to different regs.

[Donalk]

Blades on planes.....are they legal??


.......sometimes called propellers..........Surely they dont want to ban these as well??

.......sorry Lowcost - just could'nt resist

[Final 3 Greens]

Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.


Already given by Strake and me on previous thread. <=6cm for knives or <=3cm for scissors.

To save the usual cries of horror, here is the link

Dangerous and restricted items: what you cannot take on board an aircraft : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/TravellingAbroad/AirTravel/DG_176922)

If you are going to cite the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, section 1, you should also include any object that can be adapted to be used as an offensive weapon, so duty free bottles, laptops, laptop cables etc might all be considered potential offensive weaposn.

[The SSK]

Well I can't be bothered to search other threads but from the UK Government directgov site:

Dangerous and restricted items: what you cannot take on board an aircraft : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/TravellingAbroad/AirTravel/DG_176922)

Pointed/edged weapons and sharp objects

The following is not allowed in your hand baggage.

Including but not limited to:

axes and hatchets
arrows and darts
crampons
harpoons and spears
ice axes and ice picks
ice skates
lockable or flick knives with blades of any length
knives, including ceremonial knives, with blades of more than 6cm, made of metal or any other material strong enough to be used as a potential weapon
meat cleavers
machetes
open razors and blades (excluding safety or disposable razors with blades enclosed in cartridge)
sabres, swords and swordsticks
scalpels
scissors with blades more than 3cm in length
ski and walking/hiking poles
throwing stars
tradesman's tools that have the potential to be used as a pointed or edged weapons, including drills and drill bits, box cutters, utility knives, all saws, screwdrivers, crowbars, hammers, pliers, wrenches/spanners, blow torches

But I wouldn't want to argue the toss to try and get a knife with a 5cm blade on board, and if it's a Swiss Army knife they will get you on the corkscrew instead.

[MathFox]

When seeing the list there comes one lawyerly question: Which of the items give rise to criminal offences or misdemeanours and which are only a civil law issue between passenger and airline or airport?

[strake]

But I wouldn't want to argue the toss to try and get a knife with a 5cm blade on board, and if it's a Swiss Army knife they will get you on the corkscrew instead.

Amazing.

It states:
Blades over 6cm. That means 5cm is OK
It does not state you can't bring a corkscrew on board.

Common sense has to prevail. If it's a small swiss army penknife with the usual attachments, then according to the rules, it is not a problem. If on the other hand, you try to board with the mother of all corkscrews or five 5cm throwing knives then expect to be stopped.
Having said all that, I think this thread is just trying to make trouble for the sake of it. It's been done to death elsewhere.

[hotmetal]

Lowcost dolly...
You said the acts say that carrying anything with a blade AKA a knife without good reason is illegal. I haven't read the act [for a while] specifically but does it not say something along the lines of 'without reasonable excuse or lawful authority'? That is not the same as without good reason. A reasonable excuse doesn't mean an excuse authorised by the chief of police and signed in triplicate by the queen. It just means reasonable eg I fit carpets and need a knife for my work or I am off to carve the sunday roast at my Mum's or I just bought it at Debenhams etc. Knives are not illegal. Bringing one onto an aircraft might contradict the 'rules' but IMHO the prosecution would need to prove you had no reasonable excuse eg forgot it. Or prove you intended to use it for an act of terrorism. I think the answers are in the acts you have quoted.

[PAXboy]

Dear Mods, I am trying really hard not to be personal on this one and am well aware of the rules about reposting previous material from other threads. I am reposting excerpts as it seems that the instigator of this thread did not read them the first time around and, if I redirect to the original via a link, they may not get read.

lowcostdollyWould appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that blades other than safety razors are not allowed on UK flights and knives AKA blades are in fact illegal.Here we go again with the key items in red on this occasion ...

Strake provided that for you:-
Thread: LHR Security (page 2 of 3) http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/393987-lhr-security-2.html
Date: 2nd November 15:16
excerpt
the relevant passage from the government website..my highlight.:
Pointed/edged weapons and sharp objects
[edit]
knives, including ceremonial knives, with blades of more than 6cm, made of metal or any other material strong enough to be used as a potential weapon I also said, on Page 3 of that thread http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/393987-lhr-security-3.html
3rd November 21:07

Jarvy PAXboy why do you need to carry a knife in your hand luggage?PAXBoyIt's not a knife, it's a short blade as part of a combination tool-like device. In the past, I used to carry a Leatherman and now only do so if I have hold baggage.

* When I go to Africa, I have my case shrink-wrapped for security (that old word again!) and the blade deals with it. If you are in an hotel, it is difficult to get one.
* Opening parcels, letters, shop packing and security sealed purchases etc.
* Mini-screwdriver: Slotted for tightening sunglasses/glasses etc.
* Mini-screwdriver: Cross-Head for same
* Crown cork bottle opener: Self evident!!

I have used the above four features on trips to any country and, as you can imagine, at any time. Once again, the blade (mixed straight edge and serrated) is 4cm long the legal limit is 6cm. It goes in the X-tray EVERY time and has NEVER been questioned. I hope that sets the matter at rest.That settled it until today ...
lcdNow we still have some frequent flyers who think they are so exempt they brag openly on this forum on what they have managed/will take on planes!
[edit]
Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.So ... Just what else can I say or do to prove that I:
am not exempt from the rules of the carrier or govt overseeing the flight.
am not bragging but stating a fact
have not broken the law
am not 'insisting' about taking a blade on a journey, I simply take a legal blade with me every day of the year. For example, on Thursday last, I was visiting a friend in hospital and the blade was used to open a box of very well sealed chocolates for her. [not Milk Tray :p]Last time I posted the facts, no one denied them, so I took it that you accepted them. To use words of another on this forum:
Would appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that <edit> I have done nothing illegal.
:ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

Paxboy

If you read the opening line.....

A subject of much discussion of late but no actual conclusion.

You will realise that LCD suffers from a chronic inability to take meaning from the postings of others.

Abusing The Sky, who has been well known around here for some time and who enjoys high credibility, has openly questioned whether LCD is actually CC and Strake has wondered if we have a troll on the forum.

You have been on here for years and have often helped other posters with information and suggestions, i.e. you are a respected member of the online community.

If LCD's comments were aimed at you (and I suspect they were not), then I would not even give them consideration :ok:

[The SSK]

There are a number of lists on the directgov site, the one I quoted was the 'sharp pointed and edged weapons' category. Corkscrews are somewhere else, as are baseball bats and thise deadly items, skateboards.

I had a pal who recently was relieved of a 10 mil spanner. Perhaps they thought he intended to unscrew the aircraft in flight.

[HuntandFish]

I carry one of the very small Swiss Army knives tiny blade even shorter scissors .
On two occaisions I have forgotten to leave it in the office and had it picked up in my suit jacket pocket at Heathrow and Inverness .
Result , confiscated and treated like a naughty schoolboy .

[The Real Slim Shady]

Would you get a Skean Dhu through security if you were wearing it as part of your national dress....Highland dress.....if the blade was less than 6cm ?

[HuntandFish]

Slim
Very much doubt it . I understand Sikhs have a similar problem with their ceremonial knife .
Dont know about Ghurkas though!!

[Katamarino]

I believe you'll find that the lists are pretty worthless, and what is allowed through entirely depends on the vagaries of the screener on the day. Any attempt to reason with them, and point out that it is allowed, will be met with over-zealousness, obstructiveness, and delays to make you miss your flight.

For example, my girlfriend had a small jar of Vegemite confiscated. Anyone who has seen Vegemite will know that is a solid. What the hell??

[HuntandFish]

Katamarino
Very true the guy in front of me at LGW last week had a small sealed jar of Marmite Confiscated

[spiney]

Been ages since I've posted on SLF and I've only now remembered why... puerile drivel... It's metal, shiney and pointy - if in doubt check it in or leave it behind - how hard is this concept?

[Final 3 Greens]

It's metal, shiney and pointy - if in doubt check it in or leave it behind - how hard is this concept?

Please let it be ages until you post such compost again.

If it is =<6cm, it can go, unless it is scissors, in which case the blades must be =<3cm. There is no doubt.

That's the law, if you don't like it, lobby your MP.

How hard is this concept?

[Gargleblaster]

I once got caught with a potato peeler ! The security bloke made a fool of himself telling me how serious a weapon this was and telling me that if this was in the US, I would have been arrested.

[PAXboy]

spiney, I will rise to your challenge.

This thread, it is true, is not of great consequence. We are pointing out absurdities of the world and gently reminding each other that our airports are as crazy as theirs.

On the other hand ... there are many times when this forum is full if helpful and key information to fellow travellers. Times when the crews (flight and cabin) and passenger are deeply appreciative of each other's postings and notes.

You have based your opinion on a single snapshot - it's a bit like if I peered into your living room for 30 seconds at a random moment in time and based my everlasting view of you and yours on that 30 seconds. Of course, there is no doubt that I would find you in a mentally stimulating conversation and completing the latest redecoration of your property. No chance that you would be slumped on the sofa scratching your Arsenal.

[lowcostdolly]

Well 18 posts and one trip for me as an SLF wanting to carry a blade later here is the law......at a major UK airport at least!

Despite what some people think on here my original question for a definitive reference was a genuine one and yes I can and have read the numerous lists around. I wanted to carry an Xmas present, fully gift wrapped, as cabin baggage from A to B. It contained a blade under 6cm.

All the posts on this forum tell me this is legal. Any list you can read makes reference to blades under 6cm etc. My crew training and experience however tells me otherwise.

So this week I pitched up at check in with my "legal blade". I also went armed with some posts and the list on this forum all of which tell me my blade was legal.

Was asked the standard sharp items question by the agent which I answered honestly and showed the gift wrapped item.......refused as cabin baggage.

Showed agent lists posts etc so she called supervisor......item refused as cabin baggage as a "potential weapon".

I questioned further so she called a bod from security.......bag refused as cabin baggage. I then questioned the decision and asked for the point of law which was provided to me.

Airlines do not want blades in the pax cabin...end of. They then went onto some points raised by F3G on a previous thread re intentions.

No pax has a valid reason for having a blade/knife of any description in an aircraft cabin. Cultery is provided by the airline and other examples were given as well. The fact that I just wanted to avoid the checked baggage charge was not considered a valid reason to carry my gift wrapped blade of under 6 cm's in the cabin.

I was given a choice. Check my baggage or don't fly......I checked my baggage!

Was also given an example of what would happen if I did not do this and then declared/my item was detected at security.

This was on a UK based airline at a UK airport.......form your own conclusions.

Personally I think Spiney has hit the nail on the head because it seemed to be what I was being told the other day.

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.

[PAXboy]

LCD, thank you for all that trouble. I do not doubt you for a moment. I do not doubt that the staff employed in the name of 'security' have been given instructions that are a sub-set (above and below) the UK regulations. I have no doubt that they are not interested in the Home Secretary turning up with all the regulations printed on Parliament notepaper AND a 1cm blade. I have no doubt that this madness continues.

The greater part of this is that the politicians cover their @rse in the ten million to one chance that a pax goes berserk with a blade - as opposed to the glass bottles they sell on board, as we all point out!

So the airport managers repeat this and increase the range of items not allowed, so as to be able to defend themselves in court. The staff at the gate repeat and increase ... The resulting game of Chinese whispers must have Bin Laden and his friends giggling long into the night.

I have had a tiny pair of nail scissors taken off me (part of kit I was given) and the blades were less than 1cm long. Again, I could have been carrying a 2.5kg laptop and a bottle of whiskey. When they say that a pax has no need to take a blade as cabin luggage, they are correct! I am taking it because I am travelling for a short trip without checked baggage and so it is in my bag. I have never used the device I carry on board and have no intention of doing so. But, the manager would back up their gate staff and the Home secretary would back up the airports. So the process of, supposedly giving unambiguous instructions to the airports - turns into staff making up the rules as they go along. It's called 'human nature'.

Once again, thank you for your investigation.

[lowcostdolly]

You are very welcome Paxboy :)

Just to clarify a couple of points though. This was not an investigation on my part. I just wanted to fly legally as SLF with a Xmas gift and was confused by some of the advice/experiences given on this forum.

Even though I am also crew as well as SLF I am not so stupid to think I know everything......I am happy to ask anyone

The point of law was provided to me by the airport authorities charged with law enforcement......not the gate staff, their manager or a BAA screener.

When I advised contacting the authorities in my last paragraph I meant the Airport Police. They will advise impartially on the law regarding blades on planes and the consequences of disregarding this.

A thread of no consequence? :hmm:

BTW Donalk......:D:D:D:D loved it!! I've always wondered how the Pilots got these blades through security ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.

I think this is a deeply misguided point of view.

The airport authorities can inform you whether they will let you travel with an object, but this is not the same thing.

[hotmetal]

LCD the airport security staff are not experts in law. They know the rules and have a barrack room lawyer idea of what they think the law says. The police can be a bit sketchy too sometimes. I have sat in a court room and seen a defendant charged with an offence by the police that doesn't even exist in law. Case dismissed. The airport security staff are the last people I would be asking about criminal law.

When you say 'the point of law was provided'; what point of law? Which Act of Parliment? What offence would the person be charged with?

[MathFox]

I have hinted on it before: What the law says might not be the final word, the airline is free to make its own "house rules" because they run the plane and the airport has some discretion in who (and what) they allow in their buildings. There is a fundamental difference between government rules (the law) and airport/airline rules: when you break the law, the government may take criminal action against you; when you break airline or airport rules, that is a civil affair between you and the airport or airline.
I just want to add one point: airlines and airports can not just make up rules on the spot; passengers have to be properly informed of rules (and rule changes) as the rules for carry-on luggage are technically part of the conditions of your contract for carriage.

[Final 3 Greens]

What the law says might not be the final word, the airline is free to make its own "house rules" because they run the plane and the airport has some discretion in who (and what) they allow in their buildings.

You are absolutely correct.

Which is why it is not illegal to carry a short blade on a flight, but it may be confiscated by the airport security personnel.

[clareprop]

So this week I pitched up at check in with my "legal blade". I also went armed with some posts and the list on this forum all of which tell me my blade was legal.

Was this check-in at the aiport where the flying pigs land? You know, the really, really big porkers? :hmm:

[hotmetal]

I think a lowcost dolly around here is getting confused with laws and rules.:rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

I think the people who are confused about Rules and Laws are the 'security' folks!!! They take any Rule they have been given and try to enforce it by saying that it's a law. They, I presume further, think that people may be more likely to kow-tow if told it's a Law, not just a Rule.

Of course, the end result is the same, follow the Rules or Laws or don't travel. So LCD is correct and the reaction she met is probably repeatable at any airport in the UK any day of the week. Lastly, I think she got treated better than a regular pax would have been, because she was (off duty) crew.

[MathFox]

Which is why it is not illegal to carry a short blade on a flight, but it may be confiscated by the airport security personnel.
Technically airport security personnel can not confiscate anything that would be legal to carry. They can ask you to voluntaryly surrender the object in order to access the secure area.

[lowcostdolly]

Would just like to add a few things here as this is now turning into a mature discusion rather than some personal attacks.

Clareprop...the airport was LGW and yes some flying Pigs do land there!! Speak to any crew from Monarch and that is what they affectionally call their A300's amoungst other things.

Hotmetal.....the point of law was provided to me by two armed police patrolling the departure hall. P:mad:ssed because I had had to check my small case containing an gift wrapped "potential weapon" I then asked them purely on spec. They told me you cannot take knives/blades on planes........various and informative info re rationales then forthcoming.

Now I may be naive here but if a uniformed police officer tells me this I take it as law.....no act of parliment quoted at that time etc (I didn't ask I have to admit) although I quoted these earlier as a point of reference. F3G may be able to comment on the offence you may be charged with as his associate got charged with this (his post on the Gatwick North thread). I just took the police at their word.

Paxboy I think you may be right re security regs and the law but I don't know or do I suspect does anyone including me on this thread really. However you are wrong on one thing. I didn't make it known I was off duty crew. I don't have to because we are treated no differently by security when we travel as SLF. However I queried in a civilised way so maybe that is why i was treated "better".

What concerns me is that we have a forum here where we have experienced pax posting their views on what is legal as if it is gospel. We then have crew (me) posting their views.

If I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".....sorry F3G.:oh:

BTW I meant the Police by airport authorities.....should have made that clearer. They enforce the law as i understand it so should give up to date and impartial advice.

Mathfox thank you.....I have learnt something from your posts :)

[clareprop]

Now I may be naive here but if a uniformed police officer tells me this I take it as law
Just so horribly incorrect, it hurts.
The law is the law as enacted by parliament. That is the law that has been quoted ad nauseum on at least three different threads.
You say that you decided to test all this for real and go on to quote people who, it would appear in your story, have made an interpretation of that law (what the policeman said, what the security man said, what the check-in agent said etc) If you were calmly trying to take a properly packaged 5.999cm knife on board and any of those people stopped you they would, according to the law, be in the wrong. However, real life says, you either put up with their ignorance (it's their sandpit) or you can sue them and spend £1000's to prove you were right all along.
Both sides of this argument are right. On one hand, the law says you can but on the other, practice says, unless you want to be anal about it, you can't.
Now for pity's sake let's take the whole subject out and shoot it...

[Final 3 Greens]

F3G may be able to comment on the offence you may be charged with as his associate got charged with this (his post on the Gatwick North thread).

Not relevant, as the blade on his pocket knife was greater than 6cms and also had a locking blade.

f I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".....sorry F3G.

From the point of view of whether they allow it on or not, you are correct.

However, this is not what you said, which was

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.

As other posters have said, these are two different things and I stand by my comment in the context you set yourself.

Please may we just lay this subject to rest now, as Clareprop suggests?

[PAXboy]

lcd If I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".I would like to agree with you but, what we have heard in this forum - across many similar subjects - is that the authorities (and I'm only slightly tongue in cheek on this):-
Don't know.
Off load the question onto someone /.some other authority
Refer you to their website - which often has contradictory info and so that is why you are calling them!
If you ask the carrier, they will tell you to speak to the airport owner, if you ask the airport owner they will tell you to ask the govt (many departments therein) and the govt will refer you to any of the above or, wait for it, their website!
Lastly, if you consider the simple question of hand baggage (sans blades of any length) you will find different views from all of the three (gov/port/carrier) and when you try to follow the rules - you will see the carrier often ignores their own rules and lets people on with bags far in excess of the dimensions and weights.If they cannot get the basics sorted, they are never going to sort this so ... I think that one can only take the 'word' of whatever person you find on duty THAT DAY at THAT AIRPORT and go with it.

clareprop correctly puts it that they can do anything they want. They do and will and, consequently, confiscate tons of harmless junk every month.

clareprop let's take the whole subject out and shoot it... We can only do that if you can get the gun undetected through security. :}

I'm off to pour myself a large brandy. :ok:

[TightSlot]

Thanks everybody - think we've covered it nicely now