Armed Flight Crew -Question??

[ShotOne]

Which countries allow pilots and other flight crew members to carry guns? It's well publicised that the USA and Israel do so. I think also Korea, Russia and Egypt. Where else?

Please note this is a request for information not opinions on the pros and cons.

[toppledgyro]

You will not get any replies on this - it is not the type of question that any professional pilot would answer as all information regarding security measures is highly confidential.

Mods - please close this thread.

[flyr767]

topple, give me a break. :rolleyes: To the OP, I haven't any idea.

[ShotOne]

It isn't confidential, toppled. For the most part these policies have deliberately been given wide publicity.

[Rainboe]

Nevertheless, it is not something to be talked about. So don't.

[TopBunk]

It isn't confidential, toppled. For the most part these policies have deliberately been given wide publicity.

So go away and research it yourself! Don't make it any easier for the bad guys.:=

Why do you need to know anyway:ugh:

[Scott Diamond]

What sort of ridiculous question is that??? Why the hell do you need to know to the extent you post on a public forum asking? :ugh::ugh::ugh:Request for information for what purpose? :suspect:

[CraigJL]

It's a matter of curiosity to me also, but given the unstable nature of the topic, I agree it shouldn't be about the why, just where.

Nonetheless, if that's not keeping with the forum rules, then :oh:

[411A]

A few years ago, discussing the armed FD crew concept with a senior UAL Captain, I asked him...
Suppose, that during the flight, you had a violent disagreement with your First Officer (and, make no mistake, during the flight, that F/O does belong to the Commander, like it or not, by the younger crowd:}) and his reply was...'I'd shoot the SOB.'

Hmmm, seems to me a pretty good reason to keep firearms firmly off the FD.:ooh:

[non iron]

As long as the axe is within the captains reach agreed.

[Mr Optimistic]

...could also be a disincentive for stroppy pursors

[SNS3Guppy]

(and, make no mistake, during the flight, that F/O does belong to the Commander, like it or not, by the younger crowd)


WRONG!

That attitude has gotten crews killed before.

[ShotOne]

Glad to see 411 relaxed as ever! The rights and wrongs of the Federal Flight Deck Officer programme were debated at length, in public, by elected representatives. It was then reported in detail in the press and media. I'm baffled why some ppruners now feel it should be confidential.

[muduckace]

The whole issue of a loaded firearm on an aircraft, in the hands of even a trained professional "marshall" is foolish, especially in the flight deck. There is nothing to stop a flight crew member from beating a weaker flight crew member senseless then turning an aircraft into a much larger more powerfull weapon than a firearm anyways.

A bunch of idiots flying around with a false sense of security. Don't get me wrong, I like fire arms. I see much more of a need to carry though in a poor neighborhood than on an aircraft. The part of the country I live in most home invasions happen between 10am and 2pm for the simple fact that just about everyone has some form of a firearm in their home.


Now there are other effective weapons that may be more suitable for the cockpit if you wish to apply the same mentality of scaring the flying public into submission.

[tailstrikecharles]

Suppose, that during the flight, you had a violent disagreement with your First Officer (and, make no mistake, during the flight, that F/O does belong to the Commander, like it or not, by the younger crowd) and his reply was...'I'd shoot the SOB.'

Hmmm, seems to me a pretty good reason to keep firearms firmly off the FD.

I'd say it speaks to the opposite.
A violent disagreement?

" The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the EgyptAir flight 990 accident is the airplane's departure from normal cruise flight and subsequent impact with the Atlantic Ocean as a result of the relief first officer's flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer's actions was not determined."

At least a taser

Edit: I agree a list of which airlines are or are not armed is totally crazy - if its out there, let the looker find it himself - discussing the merits or lack of merit is different

[muduckace]

At least a taser


Not even, sure egypt air is unknown, but that pen or even better a sharpened pencil at your knee driven into the temple would quickly kill the other pilot. There is no true and absolute security, our fear based frenzy driven by governments and media is rediculous.

[411A]

WRONG!


Have to disagree.
The Commander signs for the aircraft, the crew is assigned, and is under the direction of, the Commander.

At least that is the way it works where I fly...dunno about your particular situation.:rolleyes:

[sharpshooter41]

411A

Respectfully, I would like to disagree with you.

"F/O does belong to the Commander" is quite different from " is under the direction of, the Commander".

Sir, CRM has been around for sometime now... And I am sure you know why it is there.

Yes, Captain is the one who has the overall responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight but to think that the F/O is only there as a decoration piece, means that you have not fully understood the benefits of CRM.

[Spooky 2]

Please don't get the Commander started down this road....again!

[411A]

...but to think that the F/O is only there as a decoration piece...

Never said such, sharpshooter, however...you should understand that the First Officer is assigned to the Commanders crew, and is responsible to him (her) in every respect.
The company says so.
The regulatory authority says so.

Do you disagree?

PS:
If you do disagree, I would suggest another job for your good self.:rolleyes:

[ShotOne]

Interesting that this should generate controversy from ppruners stateside where guns are far mosr part of everyday life than in the UK. Interesting too that Egyptair was quoted as a reason not to arm pilots. At least some pilots in that country are armed. On a tourist balloon flight recently the pilot took out a shiny revolver from his briefcase and, in front of pax, tucked it into his waistband.

I'm also intrigued that some who oppose the idea are in favour of armed skymarshals -who have at least as much likelihood of turning rogue as us but are in the cabin with the risk of having their weapon taken by nasty people.

[Bla Bla Bla]

YouTube - How pilots scare terroists * Funny * (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWDBh0fQ1ug)

Is this the sort of armed flight deck you maybe want to know about.:ok:

[sharpshooter41]

411A

How can I disagree!!! You have 7,038 posts to your name and I only have 38.

However, for the benefit of all, could you please tell us your views on CRM.

[mrfox]

Hidden camera footage of commander 411A's CRM techniques

YouTube - Cockpit Resource Management (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh42k3Kvxck&feature=related)

[411A]

However, for the benefit of all, could you please tell us your views on CRM.
Total and complete waste of time.

In my early airline ops (4-engine piston types before, the then 4-engine jets and, even now, with my large three engine widebody jet) we have something much better...it is called crew co-ordination.

If you have ever used this idea, you would reject so-called 'CRM' in a New York minute...(IE: pretty rapidly).

Airlines today (and especially younger crew members in said airlines), have bought into the 'CRM' nonsense, hook, line, and sinker...whereas, what should be done is, that tried and true...crew co-ordination.

Works good, lasts a loooooong time.

[eckhard]

Sharpshooter (and others), I assume you have read some of 411A's previous posts.

Do you really think that you will be able to change his views?

I am a firm believer in the benefits of both CRM and crew co-ordination. I also believe that someone with 411A's extensive experience, who has survived to tell a few tales, must be doing something right. Sure, we can all mock his apparently reactionary statements; but if we read between the lines, ignore some of the bluster and try to glean the real meaning of what he is saying, we might all learn something (just as he might learn something from a properly constructed and delivered CRM course. Then he might not think it is a 'total and complete waste of time').

All successful multi-crew operations must have a commander, who is ultimately in charge, and to whom the other crew members owe a duty of respect and default co-operation. That's assuming of course that the commander is properly qualified, trained and assessed by the appropriate authorities, and operates in accordance with the laid down procedures and manuals. The same applies to the sub-ordinate (note the word!) crew members, each of whom has a duty to support the commander in the safe execution of the flight (a paraphrase of some Ops Manuals).

Let's not get too hung up on words like 'belong' or 'assign'. It seems to me that some of us assume that 411A is a bit of a 'dinosaur' in the flightdeck when it comes to CRM, but until and unless we have direct experience, we don't know. I've flown with captains who said things similar to some of 411A's utterances. Some of them were arrogant fools and some were skilful pilots who actually displayed good team skills and engendered a high level of crew loyalty, despite their avowed negative views on CRM. Maybe they were 'unconscious competents', i.e. those who have a natural skill of which they are unaware.

I've also flown with captains and co-pilots who displayed very good 'soft skills', who were 'emotionally intelligent' and who couldn't track an ADF needle even if their life depended on it. Which would you rather have next to you when the 'chips are down' on a dark and dirty night?

While I am sure that the CRM training I have received has improved both my teamworking and that of my colleagues, it hasn't done a lot to sharpen my flying skills. It's true that CRM issues are a major factor in a lot of accidents, but then so is loss of control. If 411A puts more weight on 'old fashioned' flying skills, as opposed to 'new fangled' NOTECHS, then I for one think his is a voice worth listening to.

As with most things, especially in aviation, it comes down to intelligent compromise.

Eckhard (Sorry for thread creep, just a bit fed up with the 411A bashers out there!)

[Spooky 2]

One has to wonder if Commander 411A was ever anything but a Commander? CRM does work and it has proven it'self time ane time again over the last two decades. I suspect that my flying experience and that of 411A is very similar in scope and years of service so where he has spent the last forty years makes me wonder. Maybe that's the way it was back in the sand box:confused:

Long live the L1011:ok:

[muduckace]

My,my,,,

How has this turned into a power struggle thread? Bottom line is once you break chocks there is a PIC, this pilot carries the burdon of maintaining procedure. If procedure is broken and not agreed upon mutany is a reality and will stand given the situation is just.

Hell I have observed Captains, or Commanders as you speak of act like children that I would not trust to operate my lawn mower safely. Fact is we are all human and are all subject to our transgressions. During these weak times when a PIC's judjement may be clouded by personal issues ETC, this is the reason for a co-pilot.

Just don't forget who is in command at the gate... The Guy who can MEL your autopilot...

Much love,

Muduckace