Further Services Being Lost at GA Airports

[Dick Smith]

The Shell Company of Australia Limited has recently written me a letter stating,

“I write to advise that Shell has withdrawn, or is in the process of withdrawing its aviation refuelling facilities at ten regional airports across Australia.…Over the past few years demand for aviation fuel at several airports around Australia has declined. At the same time, the cost of maintaining aviation facilities to increasingly strict standards has risen. As a result, Shell is closing its operations at ten airports”.

The ten airports they listed are as follows:

Lethbridge, Coffs Harbour, Horn Island, Yarrawonga, Deniliquin, Parafield, Karumba, Bamaga, Mount Gambier, Point Cook

Those who have seen the graph on my website re. private and business aviation flying hours (see here (http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au/)) will readily see the problem.

Of course, fewer services mean fewer people are inclined to buy aircraft, and that will once again mean fewer services.

I think it’s going to be a spiral of less and less GA as airports are closed, refuelling facilities are closed, and we have a government which doesn’t appear to have any policy in relation to general aviation and increasing participation levels.

[VH-XXX]

Thanks Dick, I'm particulary concerned about several of those, I assume it is a foregone conclusion or are thinking there is hope to save them? Then again commercial reality says if they are uneconomical there would be little that anyone can do. Lethbridge is disappointing as they had a minimum usage that exceeded the minimum required for the service to be installed.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Business opportunity knocking.:ok:

[PLovett]

The fuel companies do not want AVGAS. It's a pain in the neck to them and they would rather only supply JET A1.:uhoh:

AVGAS is the most expensive fuel to produce. It is the last product out of the cracking process. It requires the best crude oil to produce. It is a very limited market.:sad:

The fuel companies have been gradually getting rid of their AVGAS networks and leaving the field to private suppliers. No longer can you fly around Australia on a fuel company carnet and it will only get worse.

Perhaps the only answer is diesel engines?:eek:

[Howard Hughes]

Or jets!;)

A number of NSW locations have lost their JET-A1 facilities in the last 12 months too. In a few places independent operations have started, hopefully someone will see this as an opportunity.:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

Is there not some obligation for these companies to provide essential infrastructure?

Just like regional air routes are often government subsidized, there should be a similar scheme for our regional essential services.

If there is not, then CASA better start handing out dispos for carrying 20L drums of fuel in our baggage compartments!

Dick, you have the coin! Why don't you take over these depos and call it Dickgas? I'm sure with a bit of lobbying you will be able to get it subsidized too!

[Mach E Avelli]

Use it or lose it is a problem for many small country locations that do not generate the traffic for viable commercial operations. The impact on commercial operators will either have them into turbines if they can afford it, or flying extra track miles via fuelling stops. Either of which has to be passed on to the customer. Once it gets too hard or too costly, the customer will elect to drive. That plays right into the hands of the fuel companies.
If government sees air services to the bush as an essential social service maybe they should lean on the fuel companies a bit via various means. Like no more servo licences if you reduce avgas or jet A1 availability below a certain level?
The answer for the private owner is to fly something that will run on mogas. My bugsmasher runs on anything better than 95 octane, or avgas or a mix of both. So an empty jerry can in the back is cheap insurance against getting stuck for fuel. A cab into town to top up as necessary. Inconvenient, but still beats driving long distances.

[megle2]

QLink now have a policy of not refuelling the Dash 8 / 400 away from base where possible.

This has knocked a few Qld refuellers about severely.
Not good for the future.

[Atlas Shrugged]

It's not then end of the world for Coffs Harbour. They will still have BP and Mobil available, as will Parafield and Horn Island, so these three out of the ten listed above are obviously a complete non-issue for AVGAS availability.

I wonder how the number of movements at these three compare with the others?

[tasdevil.f27]

Mobil is also withdrawing out of Devonport & a private operator is taking over. Wynyard could well be next as sales are extremely low there as well.

[aseanaero]

At my local airport at Halim in Jakarta AVGAS has to be purchased in drums at approx US$2.50 per litre , it takes about 3 weeks to order.

The end result is most piston twins and high performance singles have been parked and are being sold off.

Flying schools are running C172s on MOGAS and charter operators are mostly turbine now.

I figure in a few years they'll totally stop supply of AVGAS.

A niche in the market exists for a cheap turbine using low cost technologies to repower all the older piston singles and twins when AVGAS gets harder to get in the big markets (USA, Oz etc). Walther make a great engine (M601) but now they're owned by GE I wonder how long that will last.

[Dick Smith]

The Green Goblin

There’s absolutely no way I would ever become involved in a business that provided aviation fuel – or indeed any business involved in general aviation. The reason for this is that all recent governments in Australia basically have no policy for general aviation – in fact they are even hostile to it.

Over many years I have campaigned to reduce all the unnecessary expenses we have, ie. things like joining directly on base at an airport to save fuel costs or, dare I say it, being able to fly at 12,500 feet without oxygen – being above the inversion layer and also saving fuel.

So far, all of these things – and these are just a tiny example of literally hundreds of cost reductions which could be introduced – nothing has been implemented.

My suggestion to anyone is not to put any money into aviation in this country. Maybe in the years to come when the damage that has been inflicted is so great, we will get a Minister or a Government who will take advice and will get aviation booming again.

Remember, we can be the leaders in the world in flight training and recreational aviation. Hundreds of millions of dollars can come, but for that you need a policy that says that you should have both high safety and participation levels in aviation. Until that happens, we are doomed.

[chimbu warrior]

This is a continuing problem throughout regional Australia, but quite disturbing to see that somewhere like Parafield no longer justifies Shell's presence.

With regard to the suggestion that this creates an opportunity for someone, the real problem is that of supply by the oil companies. As I understand it, most of these airports were already independent businesses who obtained their supply from Shell.

At my local field, the independent business also receives his fuel from Shell, but they have recently placed his business on a 7 day account basis (previously was monthly as I understand it). The dilemma faced by this operator is does he bill his customers every 7 days? (many are private owners, low volume), does he go to the expense of installing credit card facilities at the self-serve bowser? (thus splitting his already slim margin with the banks), or does he simply go out of business, which will do no-one any good (100 GA aircraft at this field)?

Under Shell's previous policy, where he paid them monthly in arrears, the price Shell provided fuel at obviously included an increment to cover the cost of carrying this credit. With the implementation of the 7 day payment policy, there has been no reduction in the cost.

I accept that avgas is extremely low volume for oil companies, and therefore hard to justify on pure economic grounds, but much of regional Australia is heavily reliant on GA, and this is yet another nail in the coffin.

[Stationair8]

Dick, no politician would or could understand GA in Australia.

Unless it involves a big shiny jet, business class seats with a nice little thing serving drinks and a club lounge that serves free nibbles and drinks before the flight and also offers frequent flyer points, your average Canberra politician wouldn't give a toss.

Look at the stae of the major GA airports YSBK and YMMB, how long will they remain operational as airports? Local council look at regional airports as a nice little way to raise revenue and create headaches for aviation firms whether they be flying schools, charter or RPT operators or the local maintenance firm. A local flying school has been told of a number of things that have to be completed before they can get a new lease signed at a greatly inflated rate and that includes a nearly $20,000 worth of paperwork including such things building compliance statements, local council regulations for buildings(amazing a building can exist for 30 years but is not deemed to be acceptable unless it has ramps for disabled, safety glass etc). Also a lot councils are a bit hesitant about storage of large amounts of Avgas etc and the list goes on.

Don't get be started about local councils and there over zealous management of airports and the people that use them. I got a phone call from the boss who had received an e-mail from an airport owner, stating that on a recent charter pickup I had breached a number of the local airport by-regulations including not wearing an approved safety vest while on the tarmac, escorting people airside without them wearing approved safety vests and the last but the best did we know if the people were security screened for a possible terrorist risk!!!!

So Dick why would you want to participate in this circus?

Just remember Dick, Ashton Brothers Circus had less clowns but at least they gave me a laugh.

[PA39]

Big oil control ALL of the fuel distribution throughout Australia. They took control of the vast majority of privately operated fuel distributors/wholesalers and retailers during the last 15/20 yrs, so they could control the market. Big oil is only interested in one equation: the bottom line. If there is no "money" in a certain outlet then it will be closed, fullstop. Sadly "no Money" to them may have been a reasonable living for the private operator. I must ad that to install and mainntain any fuel outlet is an extremely costly exercise.

Jobbers or private operators do not fit in with Big oils plans and therefore BO do what ever is necessary to force them out of business. Its about market share and control. Its no good suggesting to Dick that he take over the outlets as 1) there is certainly no money in it,2) Big Oil don't want DS and his entrepeneurial talents getting in their way. 3) DS has too much common sense (read Brains) to even contemplate going there.

[Jabawocky]

Chimbu Warrior........ and it gets worse mate!

Our local friendly fuel man, who sells us about 1000L a month will soon be out of the loop altogether when Shell pull the pin on his business altogether!

March 2010 is the date apparently. Not sure what the final scoop will be but the fuel will remain, but how is another question.

Of course the next problem is when you want a drum of oil or carton....Good old Jim has it in stock. What about next year? :uhoh:

I can see us buying a rather large order of it at the end of Feb, to last a year or two, because his prices will be better than after the event I am sure!

Desert Flower can probably tell us about the BP folk too :=

And it just gets worse from here......................................:ugh:

[Ultralights]

Rotax approved to Run 98RON Unleaded, same as jabiru. why cant Lycoming and continental do the same? its the obvious way of the future for GA fuel supplies.

funny thing is Rotax and Jabiru only approve BP 98RON unleaded as BP are the only fuel company that guarantee in writing the 98RON is a Minimum of 98.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Mobil-Exxon are pulling out of Australia as the market is too small.
Air BP are also looking at reviewing a number of sites as well.
Looks it solves the problem of global warming.

[gutso-blundo]

Mistral engines, according to their site, can accept AVGAS or MOGAS but MOGAS is more susceptible to vapour-lock at altitude.
Anyone with a larger brain than mine agree with that? Is is the properties of the fuel itself or just their fuel system?

[Desert Flower]

Desert Flower can probably tell us about the BP folk too

Yep - twelve months down the track & I'm still getting phone calls from people wanting to book fuel. And still the odd one rocking up unannounced & finding out there's none available. Local airport owners will not let anyone store drums at the airfield, because they would have to provide signage & fire extinguishers - all of which were there & were taken away when BP cleaned up the site.

DF.

[frigatebird]

What I can't understand. is when Cessna was all set to have the German Thielert Centurion engine as a factory option burning Avtur, and the company went under, why didn't they just swing to another, the French diesel, or similar..! There seems to have been little forward planning for the lighter GA aircraft taking in the realities of availability of Avgas in the future. Continental and Lycoming as American aero engine companies, appear remiss in my view, for not funding more research and development for a diese/avtur burning range of piston powerplants earlier. One fuel type is much easier to manage for operators of say Islander/Twin Otter fleets for third world countries too. Private, Aerial Work and Light Charter aircraft would benefit immensely, and their operations keep the infrastructure ongoing, if present aircraft could be readilly retro-fitted at overhaul time too. Older engines could be approved for the higher octane grade mogas to extend their use, I feel sure, if the engine companies didn't feel so threatened by the threat of legal action. The GA companies restarted aircraft production after suspending for a decade, when they solved that problem for airframes the last time, surely the engine companies can do the same, or develop new diesels if they aren't prepared to go that way. I considered the Thielert at the time when my engine came due, but rejected it on cost mainly (glad now), and stuck with an overhauled engine that had a Mogas supplement from the Super days.

[Fred Gassit]

As a rule, MOGAS does have a higher vapour pressure than AVGAS, I think BP Ultimate uses the same feedstock as AVGAS-the higher alkylate content lowers the vapour pressure. Either way it must be a way higher spec fuel than the old 80/87 ever was, quality control downstream from the refinery has to be by far the biggest issue.

The immense cost of designing a new engine coupled with low volume production has to be a huge obstacle to any would be players, my guess is no matter what powerplant emerges it would have to be at least as costly as what's already out there.

Smaller communities should examine the co-operative concept, this has worked in remote areas of Canada I have seen where AVGAS is still used, I have no idea of the volumes they were moving tho.

Would a fuel truck that was community (co-op) owned and driven to refineries for fillups do away with the need for all the associated airport infrastructure? No more tank farms/bowsers etc. I've seen those things for sale fairly often. I think YFRT gets its fuel this way (it does then go in ground tho)
The extra traffic generated simply by having fuel available would likely generate other perhaps less tangible benefits to a community.

Has anyone looked into this? I've long hoped that something like this would emerge on some scale.

[the wizard of auz]

BP did the same thing at my local airfield with about two weeks notice. the shire supplied drum fuel for a while, but at nearly three times the cost.
Pretty much put me out of business within a month. Clients just wouldn't wear the cost of fuel at the ridicules price it ended up at.........plus the non returnable drum deposit (fecked if I can get a handle on why its called a deposit...... I never got a cent back for the hundreds of drums I purchased).

[ZEEBEE]

BP did the same thing at my local airfield with about two weeks notice. the shire supplied drum fuel for a while, but at nearly three times the cost.

Wiz

It was a big loss IMO as Leo was ideally situated for the runs to Alice via Warburton. :{

.plus the non returnable drum deposit (fecked if I can get a handle on why its called a deposit...... I never got a cent back for the hundreds of drums I purchased).

Plus you got the problem of disposing of the drums as well. :uhoh:
There really isn't any reason not to use drums again if they're not damaged and environmentally irresponsible if they're not re-used....but you can't legally do so unless you've got all the equipment (and the fuel, of course) :ugh:

[tasdevil.f27]

You wouldn't want to be an agent these days, a certain company starting with M is making it harder for there agents to run & grow there businesses. The list of things you cant do is growing longer everyday, soon you wont be able to even put fuel in the aircraft as that to will be banned :\ The filling of drums banned, filling of IBC's banned, truck - truck transfer banned and so it goes on & on.:ugh:

[Bidgee13]

The fuel infrastructure at Cootamundra needed updating and rather than spend the dollars Mobil decided to pull the pin. Fortunately the council chipped in and we now have a brand new refueling facility. Seems like we are one of the few places where council recognises the contribution the airport makes to the local economy.

[Pilotette]

quite disturbing to see that somewhere like Parafield no longer justifies Shell's presence.

Especially since Shell at Parafield couldn't keep up with fuel demand a few months ago and "ran out" on a few occasions.

[Jabawocky]

........... don't for a minute think the oil company idiots are that smart.

My wife spends ( work, not the family taxi) about $300,000,000 a year on fuel.....and her trouble with the oil companies beggers belief. The folk that work for her can't believe it either.

If the rest of us had a cartel like that.....we would be fat dumb and happy with a could not care attitude too I guess! :rolleyes:

[aseanaero]

I flew a mogas powered C182D (carburettor) for years in skydiving ops up to 10,000ft and sometimes 12,000ft and the C182 never vapor locked once , I often wonder if this arguement of mogas vapor locking at altitude is a bit of a myth.

[Jazzy78910]

I wonder if Cessna is still working on the 172TD (turbo diesel)?... :hmm:

[Pilotette]

Cessna cancelled the 2008 delivery of the 172TD after the engine manufacturer filed for insolvency but apparently are continuing with the certification of the TD with the hopes of producing it in the future.

Seems like there will be a steady increase in the market for it as time goes on!

[Scion]

Gipsy engined cessnas, running on mogas. Now there's a thought!

[Fueldrum]

Dear Aseanaero,

The reason why the C182D hardly ever suffers vapour lock when using MOGAS is that it has high wings, so the fuel flows into the engine assisted by gravity. In a low-wing plane the fuel is sucked upward into the engine by the engine-driven fuel pump against the force of gravity. As the pressure height rises the outside air pressure falls and at some point the fuel being drawn through the lines will vapourise.:uhoh:

AVGAS will not vapourise until it reaches a certain pressure. This pressure is always the same at a given temperature because it is one of the requirements for a company selling AVGAS. MOGAS, however, isn't always made from the same ingredients, so not all batches of MOGAS will vapourise at the same pressure height and outside air temperature. This means that, in a low-wing aircraft, you don't know when it will vapourise and you just became a test pilot:eek:. This is an important reason why my Warrior Flight Manual states that 'motor spirits are strictly prohibited.':{

Another consequence of the variability of the ingredients in MOGAS is that the amount of fuel consumed to produce, say, 2450 rpm in a given aircraft (with a fixed-pitch propeller) isn't always the same. This means you don't know if the consumption numbers are accurate, so again you just became a test pilot.:ooh:

Lastly the use of ethanol in modern MOGAS is problematic. Not only does ethanol increase fuel consumption for the plane and possibly damage certain engine parts, ethanol is also excellent for atmospheric humidity to dissolve into. As you climb the outside air pressure falls and outside air temperature usually also falls. This causes the amount of water that a litre of ethanol can hold to fall. The water will thus condense and sink to the bottom of the tanks, interrupting the fuel supply:uhoh:. If the OAT at that point is below freezing you will now have ice crystals in the fuel lines:eek:.

If an aircraft was STC'd for MOGAS in the decades before ethanol, that does mean that it probably won't suffer detonation if modern MOGAS is used (unless you use agressive power and mixture settings, especially on climb). It DOESN'T mean that vapour lock, innacurate fuel planing or ice formation in the fuel system won't occur.:eek: Vapour lock is unlikely in a high-winged plane but entirely possible in a low-winged one.

Bottom line??

ALWAYS STAY WITHIN GLIDING DISTANCE OF A SUITABLE LANDING SITE!!!!!:ok::ok:

[Charlie Oscar]

Dick,

You are correct in what you say! Remember, we can be the leaders in the world in flight training and recreational aviation. Hundreds of millions of dollars can come, but for that you need a policy that says that you should have both high safety and participation levels in aviation. Until that happens, we are doomed.

However you are talking about politicians who go in whichever way the wind is blowing.

Australia has the experience, knowledge and weather conditions to provide exactly what you are saying but to suggest sitting back and doing nothing is not the way to fix the problem. Government policy will not be a solution and by the time they get around to having "X" number of committees look at the problem we will all be dead and buried along with aviation in Australia.

Suggest a solution, an aiming point or drop the subject.

[relax737]

You're an extremely hostile person Atlas Shrugged; why so??

If Dick Smith chooses to bang on about anything, and I think it's political, or anything for that matter, unless it affects me directly, I feel no need to launch into an attack, and why would I??

And if it did affect me directly, I would use far more temperate language than you have chosen.



Atlas is taking Long Service Leave from this thread! :mad:

Tail Wheel

[gobbledock]

Interesting how on page 62 of 'The White Paper' GA is quoted as employing approximately 3000 people in 2008/2009,and that GA approximately contributed $280 million,yet the naieve and illinformed Government sits meekly like a whipped mule, unable to fathom or understand the long lasting negative consequences of what is happenning within sections of Australian aviation.
Naturally when it comes to fuel companies the Government lacks testicular fortitude due to the amount of power these companies throw around, however the Governments lack of understanding,penny pinching and 'spin,lies and deflection' will cost the Country much much more in the long term.

As for Dick,I guess for most of us it is like a love/hate relationship, sometimes you love him, and sometimes you hate him ( sorry Dick ), however people in the 'upper echelon's' of Aviation do tend to listen to him at times, so perhaps it is time for Dick to give ACA a call ( they will always interview him ) and Dick can tip the bucket on what's happenning in GA ? Its one small avenue to gain attention to the growing problem.

[tail wheel]

Since 1970, over 100 Australian rural communities have lost their scheduled air services. Probably a similar number of low capacity RPT and charter operators have also gone.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Tailwheel

I love regional Australia and I believe fervently in providing air services into regional Australia BUT...

...how many other signs of economic decline are those 100 towns displaying? How many public phones are in that town compared to 10 years ago? How many small businesses? How many hours to the nearest major center? Has the population grown, declined or remained static?

When I was learning to fly (in 1992-94) there was an RPT service from Cessnock to Sydney. Driving time to Sydney then was 2-3 hours.

The RPT service is long gone and driving time to Sydney is now 1.5 hours.

Coincidence? I think not.

[relax737]

Well put Horatio, and thee would be hundreds of other country towns in decline as well.

Their Post Offices have probably closed, they have visiting banks, etc.

It's unfortunate, but just the way it is.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Blame Fred Hilmer! The economic rationalist could not see what removing a job from a town would do to its viability. Was he justified? Should that town have been there in the first place?

I am soooo glad that the coal seam methane project finally got off the ground in the East Surat Basin. From Roma to Dalby, it has assured their viability. After Fred, those places were kicked in the guts big time.

[gobbledock]

Horatio/relax737, Valid points you both make -

...how many other signs of economic decline are those 100 towns displaying? How many public phones are in that town compared to 10 years ago? How many small businesses? How many hours to the nearest major center? Has the population grown,declined or remained static?

and

and thee would be hundreds of other country towns in decline as well.
Their Post Offices have probably closed,they have visiting banks,etc.

I could not agree more,and totally support your comments.
However,as Aviation people,we cant fix all of the above mentioned issues within Australia, but we can and should 'throw out some noise' about Aviation issues specifically,because that's our field of expertise, not to say they we cant fight for the protection of other industry and services within our country.
GA has never recieved the level of 'assistance' that is waranted.And if changes are to be made it will take 'strength in numbers' from the people. There is only one thing a Politician is afraid of more than telling the truth,and that is being voted out and losing their outrageous salaries,perks,rorts and comfy excessively rich taxpayer funded lifestyle. When the 'people' pull together en mass and raise a noise they have no choice but to listen and adapt as they now start to fear a voter backlash and they fear the loss of their gravy train. In theory it is quite simple, but it takes people, lots of people and lots of noise.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Aviation Report-Regional Services (http://www.aph.gov.au/House/committee/trs/aviation/report/chap2.pdf)

Sums it up pretty nicely.

PS. How much has changed since 2003, when this paper was submitted?

[gobbledock]

Absolutely OZBUSDRIVER.
This is a well written overview of the decline's we have all mentioned and acknowledged in our industry.
The best thing I like about these sort of documents,and one's like the 'The White Paper' is all the spin and deflection,waffle,history explained, thousands of printed words telling us what we already know but basically providing no action points,no solutions,no promises,no commitments,no direction,no nothing..A total waste of funds and acompletely empty and worthless report only worthy of wiping one's a#s upon.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I liked one argument:D

If a Greyhound or a McCafferty’s bus drops a passenger in a small
regional town, the local council is not expecting to pick up a $12
passenger head tax—there would be a huge outcry over that. But if
a local operator drops a passenger off in his Piper Chieftain, the
local council has its hand out.83

2.91 However, the committee notes the weakness in this argument. A bus drop off point does not commit a council to the same level of infrastructure as
does an airport

Yes, that is correct, However, of what percentage did Greyhound or Maccafferties contribute to the national road network to actually be able to provide a sevice to drop a passenger off? And to what amount of money did said council actually expend in actually providing that infrastructure of a complete aerodrome? Bit of a croc to hand over a fully viable airport to a council and then have them try to turn it into a toll booth:yuk:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

To be thorough, this is the link (http://www.aph.gov.au/House/committee/trs/aviation/report/contents.htm) to the full submission

[sprocket check]

It's a grim situation by the sounds of it! It looks like in a few years there will be very little general aviation left.

Perhaps the collective wisdom of pprune can come up with a prediction of where we'll be in say 5 or 10 years time?

I think it might be an idea for another thread...

[alisoncc]

GA in Oz has always been a disaster. Remember when I first visited Archerfield in 1970, fresh out of the UK, I commented to the manager of the AWA avionics facility about the number of light aircraft around and how busy it must be. He replied "non of them ever fly, it's just a large parking lot". A common comment back then was that Australia's superb aviation safety record came about by DCA banning all flying. If no one flies no one dies.

[gobbledock]

alisoncc, you are very correct, some good memories my friend.
These days Archerfield is no longer a parking lot, plenty of GA action, but the ground space surrounding the aerodrome has been rapidly swallowed up by businesses to the point where the airfield is in danger of being choked.Its been a very interesting transition. However the place holds a lot of fond memories for many in the industry.
Cheers

[Matt-YSBK]

It says it all on page 62 of the Aviation White Paper.
(available @ A National Aviation Policy Statement - the Aviation White Paper (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/index.aspx) )

POLICY GOAL
The maintenance of a safe, efficient and innovative general aviation sector that continues to
provide essential air transport services and remains a key part Australia’s broader aviation industry.

No where above does it say Grow, Expand, Advance

It Says.
Safe (we all want that)
Efficient (that's Political Speak for cheap)
Innovative (that Political speak for how they can make it cheap)
and then it goes on about how it can work in with the other parts of Australia's aviation industry (that's the bit that matters to them)

So According to the white paper GA should be cheap for the county to run and not get in the way yet feed into other Aviation within the country. This is like being in a relationship and the girl saying honey we need to talk.

Governments only listen when you make them listen currently there are only 3 ways to do that. Vote's, Media, and Industrial Action. We don't hold enough votes to make them listen that way. The only way to engage the media is with scare tactics. That leaves the latter... Pity the minister gets flown around by the airforce who cant refuse an order to take them where they want to go.

It would be nice to make one of them catch a 1000km 4WD trip back from some remote diamond mine on their next photo Op.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

GA in Oz has always been a disaster. Remember when I first visited Archerfield in 1970, fresh out of the UK, I commented to the manager of the AWA avionics facility about the number of light aircraft around and how busy it must be. He replied "non of them ever fly, it's just a large parking lot". A common comment back then was that Australia's superb aviation safety record came about by DCA banning all flying. If no one flies no one dies.

There must be two Archerfields!

The one you describe bears no resemblance to the Archerfield at which I learned to fly in 1973.

Dr :8