Diverting/closing an international flight plan

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi, flying from one EU country to another I have to file a flight plan.

I can obviously change this because of weather.

Can I also just change it as my personal plans change?

Can I just close it the moment I cross the FIR boundary, and go uncontrolled wherever I like?

We have to file one, but how fixed is it once filed?

Thanks, Sam.

[IO540]

Is this VFR or IFR?

[M609]

We have to file one, but how fixed is it once filed?

The border crossing is best done at the point stated in the flight plan when flying into some countries. Keeps the blood pressure low on the MIL radar people! :8

[Sam Rutherford]

VFR.

I appreciate that it's best/easiest to follow your flight as planned - but what are actually the options with regard to changing things?

Thanks, Sam.

[sternone]

Are you flying on Airways ?

[172driver]

Sam,

Diversion, change of plans - yes, no problem. If it's a simple diversion (say, for wx or fuel), then it is normally just a matter of letting the ATC unit you are talking to know. HOWEVER, in this scenario it is a good idea to check that your FLP is actually closed, once on the ground. Reason being that, especially if you land at an airport other than your designated alternate(s), you may or may not be 'in the system'.

If it's a 'change of plan' because you suddenly don't fancy the restaurant you booked for that evening any more ;), then you may have to air-file another flight plan. Again, no big thing, you just read the new FLP to the controller (simple: just follow the same sequence as on the paper one) over the radio. Much as departing somewhere uncontrolled and then needing/wanting a FLP.

What I have never done and don't really know the answer to is your last Q - cancel and go your merry way. I somehow have a feeling that on an international FLP this isn't going to work.

Lastly, as has been said, some countries (e.g. Portugal) require you to enter their airspace at designated points, typically an intersection, sometimes a VRP.

[BackPacker]

You can always ask the controller to "close" your flightplan, but this is normally done when you're in sight of an uncontrolled field with no easy options of closing the plan once on the ground. So if you do it in the air miles and miles from your destination the controller will probably ask a question or two.

But the easiest is to simply say you're diverting to another field to the controller. He/she will then send the appropriate messages to your destination and diversion field, to keep everybody happy.

A flight plan or not doesn't mean you're controlled or not. Just that someone at your destination knows you're coming and is looking out for you. You can, if you want to, file flight plans for no-radio flights even.

I'm not getting why you would want to go "uncontrolled". Unless you're up to smuggling things or people...?:confused:

[flyingfemme]

The flight plan isn't the problem....
If it's international then you need to bear in mind that first point of landing must be a customs/immigration airport and they probably have an advance notification requirement........
"Europe" may not be exactly "international" when you consider Schengen but each of the countries has its own little interpretations of what a private aircraft can (and can't) do.

[IO540]

It's not easy to work out the intention behind the wording of the question.

If flying internationally, the flight plan must remain in the system until one lands in the destination country.

Subsequent flights within that country may not require a flight plan - it depends. For example Spain doesn't need one if flying outside controlled airspace but in practice one can't go very far in Spain that way. The UK doesn't need one. I don't think France needs one. Most of the 3rd world does need a flight plan for everything including having a pee :)

A flight plan can be amended after it is filed, before departure. How this is done depends on how it was filed.

If filed via the departure tower (the traditional old way) then you call up the tower and ask them to change it.

If filed via Homebriefing (http://www.homebriefing.com)you can change it on their website, or by phoning them.

If filed via AFPEx (http://www.flightplanningonline.co.uk/)(open to UK residents only) you can transmit a suitable AFTN message to change or delay it, or even by phoning them

If filed via EuroFPL (http://www.eurofpl.eu)(does IFR flight plans only) you can edit it via their website.

The last 3 services are not in general interchangeable i.e. if you file via Homebriefing you can't edit the flight plan via EuroFPL, etc. But AFPEx can be used to issue an AFTN message to amend your flight plan, no matter how it was originally filed (just have to address the change message identically to the original).

In principle, any proper airport tower should be able to amend a flight plan for you, if they can see the one originally filed (i.e. you show it to them). There is no VFR flight plan database from which the FP can be extracted by a 3rd party (officially).

Once airborne, you can change your routing but have to work with ATC on this if crossing borders. After you crossed the border, and are in Class G,F,E airspace (uncontrolled) nobody is likely to care where you go, but legally you do have to land at a Customs airport (except if flying within Schengen, but even then that may not apply because e.g. Greece ignores the treaty for aircraft).

The Schengen option aside, flying within Europe is simple if one sticks to international airports (ones with Customs). They will also close a flight plan for you.

But beware - many "customs" airports need prior notice or prior permission for Customs, and some (Italy comes to mind) will refuse a landing if this is not arranged. Must get the receipt in writing.

It's no wonder some of the more southern countries have so little GA that ever leaves their borders :)

[172driver]

In principle, any proper airport tower should be able to amend a flight plan for you, if they can see the one originally filed (i.e. you show it to them). There is no VFR flight plan database from which the FP can be extracted by a 3rd party (officially).

Don't think this is entirely correct. In Spain (and in my experience also in Germany, France, Austria) you definitely are 'in the system' with a VFR FPL.

The problem can arise (and I have had that happen), if you land at an airport other than your flight-planned destination or one of the alternates. I've been in the situation where just that happened, upon filing a new FPL to depart that unscheduled diversion, found out that according to 'the system' I was still in the air. The tower simply hadn't closed my FPL. Hence my suggestion to ensure this if landing at a non-planned destination.

On a different note, IO, we just seem to have completely different experiences with PPR. Just never happens (outside UK and some private fields) in my experience. Could it be that part of this is down to your flying one of those evil N-regs ;) ?

[Foxy Loxy]

no easy options of closing the plan once on the ground.

There is a number you can call in the UK. I'll check when I get in to work later and post it if you like.

[IO540]

we just seem to have completely different experiences with PPR. Just never happens (outside UK and some private fields) in my experience. Could it be that part of this is down to your flying one of those evil N-regsThere might be a number of reasons for this:

1) You speak the local language (this makes a HUGE difference in the, shall we say, more southern countries ;) - they tend to "tolerate" foreigners, just about)

2) I fly an N-reg which is a non-EU reg and this does invoke different regs in some places. I got ripped off an extra 38 euros at LGMT this year, due to this. Later they said it was due to a non-EU arrival... Turkey needs a permission code to enter their airspace in an N-reg (or probably a non-EU reg).

3) I fly an N-reg so anybody who is a) unprofessional and b) doesn't like US foreign policy, might be less than helpful.

4) PPR is a very variable thing. Here in the UK, one can bull***t one's way to most "PPR" airports - except Duxford but I was advised by one of their board members that they abandoned that policy some time ago, due to loss of business. In Spain and Italy, ISTM that they enforce it against foreigners only. Greece seems to enforce it against all. In France, they seem to be very laid back - but how can one tell? I went to St Yan this year which is "Customs PNR" but it proved all but impossible to extract a confirmation that they received my PNR. The locals obviously know that nobody there cares (it's a sleepy place) but can I assume that? Local knowledge is everything...

5) In many places, I strongly suspect, PPR is only for foreigners and that is as official as it can get.

Anyway - let me throw you a challenge. Look up Zaragoza LEZG in the AIP. If it still has PPR, fly there without it and see what happens. If it works, it proves one or more of my points above. Last year, they cancelled my flight plan to them, claiming lack of PPR (despite the fact that the office at Granada, where I was flying from, phoned them some days before to check). If you get in, repeat it with a) speaking no Spanish, and b) in an N-reg.

:)

I will nowadays not fly to any airport which I have not been able to contact regarding avgas, PPR, customs - or got a local contact to do it for me.

[172driver]

Anyway - let me throw you a challenge. Look up Zaragoza LEZG in the AIP. If it still has PPR, fly there without it and see what happens.

Always up for a challenge ;)

Anyway, done, no PPR for LEZG. What MAY have happened to you (and is not uncommon in Spain) is that they publish a slot requirement in the NOTAMS sometime early in the year. Even if you do in fact check the NOTAMs, you have to wade through endless stuff till you get to it and may easily miss it. Caught me out a couple of years back in Valencia (and the chaps at the AIS in Girona from where I filed the FPL didn't know either).

Anyway, suggest we go flying south together - I'll do the FPL, let's see what happens!

;);););)

[gasax]

The 'rules' are that you cannot close a VFR flight plan whilst airbourne. I went through this last summer and a polite but very technical controller started to quote chapter and verse.....
Anyhow I treated it as a diversion and closed it once on the ground by phone.

It is all part of bluntly an outdated telex based system which really should have been swept away a long time ago.

Many of the difficulties are about potential 'security' issues. No one wants to get rid of what is nonsense bureauracy as it has some benefits to the powers that be.

But there are worst things to deal with so it is one of the lessor problems...

[IO540]

172driver - you are probably right the requirement has changed but it was PPR. I found the 22/9/2008 email from aena.es

Dear Sir:

AIP SPAIN AD 2 LEZG 1 AERODROME GEOGRAPHICAL DATA AND ADMINISTRATION

Remarks (2) IFR/VFR general aviation traffic is conditioned to the apron capacity. They must request SLOT PPR 3 HR to LEZG CEOPS vía TEL *34 976. 712.304 FAX * 34 976. 780624 o AFTN LEZGZPZX . Aircraft type, registration number, operator, departure and destination aerodrmoe an EOBT , ETA and ETD must be included in the request. Traffic without authorization will not be allowed.

I made a helluva fuss at the time; they cut off email comms as soon as I sent them copies (and delivery receipts) of my faxes :)

[Foxy Loxy]

0845 601 0483.

[IO540]

It is all part of bluntly an outdated telex based system which really should have been swept away a long time ago

I agree regarding the telex legacy, but this stuff has not been going via telex for some years. In most of the world, AFTN messages travel over leased lines. Not quite the internet but far faster than telex lines. They have a diagram of the network on the wall at Swanwick.

The security issues must be quite complicated because no country wants unknown air traffic crossing its borders - yet loads of GA traffic does so with a flight plan that has been lost or mislaid, at least temporarily. VFR flight plans easily get lost.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

The 'rules' are that you cannot close a VFR flight plan whilst airbourne.

Perhaps this is under a different rule, but seems odd, as my usual method of closing a VFR flight plan is to send the request via radio whilst somewhere on final approach. Saves time on the ground, and I'm on tower freq by this point so it's not as if they don't know where I am :)

[gasax]

To half baked - yes but it would work anyhow if you are landing at your flight planned destination - radio call or not.

It might would if you were landing at your ZZZZ destination and talking to an area control authority - but that is not strictly correct.

IO - I completely agree - but if you ask any 'govermint' department to drop something with even a vaguely 'security aspect' you know the answer!

Fly from Denmark to northern Germany - no flight plan - local arrangements - These things happen all over the place because the overhead of the arrangements makes for nonsense beaurarcy. But try to do the same between Eire and NI..............................

[IO540]

if you ask any 'govermint' department to drop something with even a vaguely 'security aspect' you know the answer!

Well, yes, the Special Branch 12hr PPR is a great example. Totally pointless and only an especially dumb amateur terrorist won't route via France.

[david viewing]

The 'rules' are that you cannot close a VFR flight plan whilst airbourne. I went through this last summer and a polite but very technical controller started to quote chapter and verse.....

In my experience this is a uniquely UK interpretation. I also once got lambasted by ATC (won't say who, but it was a long time ago) through having the temerity to ask for an in-flight termination.

In the US, in Ireland, in Scandinavia closing from the air is accepted practice. Finland, for instance, want you to note on the FPL which station you will close it with when routing to an uncontrolled field (So does the US - that "Close with xxx FSS" at the bottom of the FPL form). Perhaps this is to ensure they have a copy of the FPL and I suppose that's the issue with the chaotic, amateurish UK VFR FPL system where even London Information can't close flight plans.

PS As part of the lambasting referred to and continued afterwards on the internet, I was told by ATC that they have 'a duty of care' toward the pilot and 'could not close a plan before your wheels are safely on the ground'. How does closing from the air differ from an unnounced local flight in terms of risk then?

[IO540]

Oh yes, that "duty of care" thing.

This has got to be the best gravy train for lawyers in all of this century so far.

It's nearly all bollox, too. Next time it is mentioned, ask for any legal precedents. There aren't any. It is a product of this: you describe a situation to a lawyer and ask him "is there any liability here"? His rate is £250/hr plus VAT. Is he going to say "of course not" ???

ATC have no conceivable liability to GA traffic, in any situation whatsoever short of vectoring an IFR flight into terrain, or a midair involving a loss of IFR/IFR separation in CAS.

[M609]

In Norway it´s not a rule, but we mostly ask aircraft inbound unmanned aerodromes on a VFR flight plan how they intend to close it.

"....G-XXXX do you intend to close your flight plan with us on radio before landing or via telephone on the ground after landing...."

Or some such phrase.

Saves A LOT of spurious overdue actions, since the overlying CTR, TMA or ACC controller is responsible for closing the damm things.
When ETA is passed with 30min our radar/FPL system gives a "SAR alert" on the relevant flight if it has not been closed.