Helicopter shared ownership

[Trochilidae]

Dear fellow PPruners,

As a means to building up hrs I'm currently looking into shared ownership as an option.

I've been googling around and it looks like the cheapest option is to have a second hand R22 or 300Cb shipped from the States.

Any words of wisdom concerning registration,operating and maintenance costs involved, insurance etc. are greatly appreciated.


Cheers, Troch

[FLY 7]

I'm an advocate of the ownership option, if you can go down that route. It means it's your helicopter, available whenever or wherever you want it. You will acquire a close personal affinity and feel for it, with the reassurance that everything is as you want it, to your standards.

Of course there are added costs, commitments and responsibilities, but these are viable if you are doing c.100hr + p.a.

If you can source a 300'C' it is worth the extra, even though it might be an earlier model than the CBi. The extra performance makes a big difference in terms of handling and safety. However, good ones are sought after. Another option might be an Enstrom 280fx.

US$/UK£ exchange rates still make it viable to import from the States, etc. and if you are really quick you may be able to save the vat by going through Denmark.

Alternatively, there may be some bargains and less hassle buying direct in the uk (assuming that's where you are based).

[JTobias]

Hi Guys,

Take a look at one of my recent blog postings here (http://jetbox.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/shared-ownership/)

Joel :ok:

[enstrompilot]

have you considered an Alouette II

great machine for the price of a cheap 44 (say £100-£120K for one with mid hours). V low insurance costs

low running cost, equal less than a 44 ?

a few in UK on Hungarian reg

you will need to Hungarian type rating but otherwise straight forward.

the machine can be maintained in the UK, they are V reliable, most comps make time, no known vices

down side ?

Slow (100Kts) for a turbine, loud (oft said a device for converting fuel to noise), thirsty (160+ litrs) per hr, mostly are ex Military so green

Up side

why have a piston ?
3:15 on tank full at 100kts
turbine time at Piston costs
5 seats

food for thought ? PM (how does that work ?) if you fancy a test fly - based nr Birmingham

(I am biased, I have flown one for 300+ hrs, and now own 4, I used to have an Enstrom, would not go back)

[bladegrabber]

Enstrompilot

How can i find out more about them and any chance of a picture?

Understand their thirsty but whats the overall hourly operating costs like?

Would be intersted in doing a few hours to try one if possible?

cheers
BG

[biggles99]

then don't bother looking at anything other than a R22.

With a turbine, you are supposed to pay the full duty on Avtur for private use. The law came in about 12 months ago now.

This pushes the price of a litre of Avtur up to about £1.20, plus VAT.

Whether you declare your flight to be a business flight (and therefore qualify for the much lower price of Avtur) is another thing, of course.

As for other piston helicopters, anything and everything will be more expensive than a R22. A R44 wil cost you approximately double what a R22 costs you to own and run.

And if the mission is hours building, you don't need to get anywhere quickly!

It's not just fuel burn - you have to factor in maintenance costs and purchase and re-sale values.

You'll pick up a Enstrom 28 for less than 30 grand, but I suggest you ask any maintenance outfit that services all types of light helicopters and see what they say about the maintenance costs of a "cheap" Enstrom.

hope this helps,

Big Ls.

[chopperchappie]

Hi There

I recently looked into this a lot. I went through all the options and the thing that kept coming back to me was how unprofessional some shared aircraft groups were and (on the other hand) how some of the more professional groups charged for the privilege.

I didn't want to end up part of a group that owned an aircraft on the ground that couldn't be flown and nobody took care of.

The obvious thing about shared ownership is the cost per hour is lower and the upfront purchase price doesn't really depreciate, therefore it's possible to buy and sell your share when you finished for the same amount.

Everybody I spoke to kept coming back to the same group G-BOXT - a Hughes 300C (not CBi), stating that it was well run and there were no management fees. The group is extremely religious about maintenance and adhering to CAA regs.

The costs are substantially cheaper than learning to fly (or self-fly hire) with a commercial organization - about £100 an hour less. There is a standing charge of £100 pm to cover hanger, insurance, block landing fees, online booking website etc.

So if you fly more than one hour a month on average you are saving money.

The H300 is comparable with the costs of flying an R22, the way that G-BOXT is charged out, is per hour wet.

The only problem for me was that there were only four members of the group, which meant the shares were £20K each.

As a result of several discussions it was agreed that all of the members would split their shares and therefore each sell 1/8th (or 1/2 their current interest).

I bought one 1/8th share and another share was sold. There are currently 2 shares for sale.

Being a member of a shared ownership group does have the potential than an unexpected bill comes in and it has to be shared between the members, but the flip side is that

I'm a big guy (6ft 3in and over 17st), so that brings the R22 capabilities into sharp releif. Obviously I have never flown an R22 but people that fly and instruct on both normally say they prefer the H300 - and students tend to need less hours to pass PPL.

They also say the Enstrom 280 is probably the easiest to fly but also doesn't have the same power/useful load as the H300.

So I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a R22" maybe a bit blinkered or even imprecise, perhaps I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a single engined piston, such as a R22 H300 B47 Enstrom280 or similar"

Also remember that TRTO conversions to R22/R44 are available everywhere and it's easy to get time in an R22 (if you aren't a giant like me) but flying in a H300 or B47 gives you another string to your bow. H300 instructors are a bit more in demand than R22 instructors - and you can cary 2 passengers in a H300 (as long as they aren't giants as well).

If you are interested in flying G-BOXT, I'm sure I can arrange a trial flight/check ride with my instructor (Ray Jones).

[enstrompilot]

hi Bladegrabber

pics etc

Try entering Alouette II or HA-IDL , in Google , there is lots of history to be found on the web, HA-IDL is a 313B (the most updated version before the engine change to 318C) last AD was ? yrs ago ! (either no one cares or this is a very sorted machine !)

Hourly operating costs

depends on how you count things, the fuel cost range up from 56p/ltr if you own your own bowers to lots per litre if you visit airfields, the tax depends on if its personal or business flying.

The engine and major component reserve fund is much in the eyes of the beholder, but very few, if any, components are on calandar, only major items, engines, gearboxes, baldes etc are time limited, all with large allowances and all make time limits. Spares can be tricky/pricey to find quickly, but as most make life, planning ahead can make a huge difference. there are 4 or 5 co's world wide who hold big stocks (often ex of military users who built massive stock and have recently released to private hands). Blades and Engines are particularly hard to find, but they do come up sometimes, engine at E80-100 per hr remaining and blades at E5 per hr remaining.

Insurance (no hull) is a little as 1,000 Euro (my last E860) including 4 x pax.

Annual maint costs typically £3k, 50hr typicllay £500 (1-2 days). the whole thing is rock solid, does not use oil, just do the daily preflight lub and 'off you go'

being 3 blades it needs a big hanger, I built one at home (£4k).

I recon my Alouette cost half the cost of my last Enstrom F28F on same hrs basis

I find my real costs are £140-£160 phr based on 120 hr pa. this excludes main part life consumption (I have a v large parts stock I have collected over the yrs so have parts to keep flying as long as the CAA let me)

Re hours cant do self fly but come visit, either nr Birmingham or Eastbourne and come for a flight !

cheers
enstrom pilot

[Hughes500]

Ivor

You obviously know nothing about 300's then.

[cyclic flare]

There is an R44 raven 2 with only 50 hours TTSN available in 1/4 shares to be hangered at Barton. 2 shares have already been taken I think it was around 50k each PM me if you want me to put you in contact with them

[FLY 7]

The R22 might be cheaper and simpler to run than, say, a 300 - I've no idea. But the R22 has built in obsolescence after 12 years.

Aside from being a better helicopter, most 300s are 10, 20, 30, 40 years old and are often worth more now than they cost new - an important consideration in shared ownership.

[parasite drag]

If you are solely interested in hour building, and maybe a bit of fun thrown in...have you considered buying your own Rotorway, they are without doubt the cheapest to own and operate ????

[jeepys]

In Ivor's case it may have been the maintenance facility as to the reason why the 300's he operated seemed to always be in the hangar.

Yes you do get some dog aircraft but from my experience the 300 has always been pretty damn reliable, however, I have flown good aircraft that have faults that can only be blamed on poor maintenance.

Don't forget an aircrafts reliability has a lot to do with the owners willingness to spend money and the organisation that maintains it.

[Teglen]

Hi all, I'm looking for shared ownership (R22/44 or pref. H269) down south, Wiltshire/Hampshire area, for hour building and leisure. I've searched a lot, but it seems most of them are further north... can anyone enlighten me as to why this may be? Or am I searching in the wrong places?

Thanks!

[bolkow]

I did hear one guy moaning recently how he had a share in a chopper that a flight school also had a share in. Problem was according to him, the flight school amassed hours and hours on a mchine he feels he and others effectively subsidized them to do.
There may be some who would dispute this but I offer the story as given to me as a sort of thing to keep in mind.

[biggles99]

Parasite Drag,

I think that when Troch says he wants to "hours build", he is not refering to how long it will take to construct a working, flyable helicopter.

In the case of a Rotorway that will be a lot of hours indeed.:)

(there's another thread for this, so nuff said).

As for Hughes 300 being as good, or better than a R22 I'll moderate what I said previously to:

"If you are under 14 stone, and/or under the age of 50 and/or less than 6ft tall, and the running costs of he helicopter are of paramount importance, then the R22 is the only aircraft to consider."

If you are of a bigger build, or coming to flying later in life, then the Hughes 300 and Enstrom 280 are excellent machines, especially for training, low-houred pilots and aerobatics.

But they will always cost more than a R22 to run."

Big Ls

[JTobias]

And as far as the Rotorway is concerned, besides everything else, you're going to struggle to get a type rating and/or LPC renewal on it.

Joel

[FLY 7]

Actually, there are 52 Hughes and Schweizer 300s on the UK G-reg.

[Hughes500]

Well all i can say is that I run 3 x schweizers at my school here in Devon and they seem to stay in the air quite well. Example
one machine been away for 1 year and 300 hours ( leased to an hour builder)
Only unscheduled maintenance was one starter motor ( quality of todays is crap) and a mixture cable. All the rest was scheduled checks or part replacement.
The other 2 seem to be good, can only speak as I find

[parasite drag]

Biggles99, I can only guess your Rotorway comment was a humerous tongue-in-cheek thing....as there are numerous nice ready built machines for sale...

Jtobias....loving your negativity.....the issue you allude to will be cease to be an issue soon...

:ok:

[Pigeon-dodger]

'Every school that runs 300s that I have worked at, or hired from has always had problems with 300s'

Bournemouth swear by thiers and we have had one for two years and its been great...minor issue with a part being dropped but not the heli's fault. Think 300cbi are the best training aircraft ever!

[g0lfer]

We have an R22 share available based in NE England. PM me for details.

[MK10]

We have an R44 that is operated within a syndicate.Central belt Scotland,
p.m for details

[paulhitchen]

"R44 shares available at Barton- Cyclic Flare"

I am interested in a part share at Barton or the Greater Manchester area. I am training at Barton on a 300CBI and will be low hours naturally when I pass. I am an experienced PPL(A) but I know that does not count! Anyone who may have any contacts, please let me know, I'd be grateful. Many thanks.

[chopperchappie]

Hi - I have now been flying the hughes 300 for a year and on one occasion after shut down, the master electrical breaker failed to operate.

The problem was traced to a relay that was replaced for about £100.

Apart from that the batteries in the digital clock needed changing.

So based on that I can understand whay they have a bad rep !

[Clitheroe Kid]

I'm part of a group running an Enstrom 480 based at Manchester Barton. It's always available and any unexpected costs are split five ways. It's the way to go if you want low cost flying. Let me know if you want details.

[chopperchappie]

Yes - after a year of trouble-free flying one of the skid tubes has developed a crack where the wheel attaches - apparently during ground handling.

I can see the problem with these H300s :eek:
Seriously - if an R22 is still going year on year after 30 years (without being rebuilt every 12) I'll be impressed.

Anyone got a LHS Skid Assy for a H300C going cheap?

CC

[readgeoff]

If anyone know of an R22 group in the South East somewhere I would be interested :)

[PENNINE BOY]

Nice R22 Beta2 group in Saddleworth near Oldham,

looking for 1 or 2 people. Good availability with cheap fuel available!!!!

PM for details :D

[chopperchappie]

Anyone interested in regularly flying an R44 (either with or without equity)out of a West of London airfield please PM me.

Per Hour Wet Costs likely to be about half the commercial rate.

No significant limitations (hours, type ratings etc.) even potential to do ab-initio training.

Probably based somewhere like Denham, White Waltham, High Wycombe, possibly Fairoaks, Blackbushe.

If there are sufficient people avaiable we can probably operate a group at a very low cost and with a very limited commitment.

CC

[500e]

chopperchappie (http://www.pprune.org/members/313618-chopperchappie)

Have got a ground handling trolley spare if you are looking.PM if interested
Heard of two in last 12 months broken at ground wheel spigot hole, big hole in smallish skid no doubler :(

[ijustmight]

Chopperchappie

Sent you a PM - I'd be interested in joining an R44 group in High Wycombe.

Regards
Mike

[chopperchappie]

500e

Hi - Just have bought helimover for the H300, but there are a couple of options for R44 group ownership or commercial, but I guess in either case the aircraft will be manoevered by the people that hangar it (in this case most likely Heliair) and they should have a helimover but thanks and if that's not the case I'll give you a shout back.

[northpoint]

The idea of flying an R44 at half the commercial rate sounds very attractive.

So with 44s renting out for £400 to £450/hr that means you will be getting to fly for £200 - £225/hr

Let's just do a quick back of the envelope calculation on that on say a Raven II.

Taking RHC published figures you will need to allow for overhaul costs on a time flown or calendar basis this will be $177,826 or around £118,551 or approx £54 per hour flown and if you dont't fly at least 183.33 hours per year it will still cost you £823 per month.

Dependant on the experience of your group members and the value of the machine you use expect insurance to cost £600 - £800 per month

Then there is hangarage. Depending on where you base the machine don't expect to pay less than £400 per month + 20% VAT.

Maintenance will set you back £4,000 - £5,000 per year if you are putting on an average of 4 hours per week flying.

And finally there is fuel. The Raven II is the easiest helicopter to calculate required fuel for a trip, it burns a litre a minute or approx £105's worth of Avgas an hour.

Adding that up on the basis of 183 hours per year you get an hourly equivalent rate of;

£54 overhaul allowance
£49 insurance
£22 maintenance
£30 hangarage
£105 Avgas

£260 total per hour

OK it's only a rough guide, not chapter & verse,

It doesn't cover the unexpected things going wrong or RHC hitting you with a SB to replace the fuel tanks by end of 2014 at a cost of around at least £9,000 unless the helicopter you buy is a late model which already has the bladder tanks.

To be on the safe side add another 10% to your hourly rates to cover contingencies and divi then it up at Christmas if all goes well.

Although I have used RHC figures in some of the above I have also used 10 years experience of owning and flying an R44.

[chopperchappie]

northpoint

Yes is the broad answer. Nice Analysis. Figures not far from mine (assumes yours are inc VAT).

But broadly speaking IMHO it makes sense to buy a mid-hours R44Raven II rather than new and split the costs into two buckets;

Standing Costs - Those costs which if it doesn't move you still have to pay (monthly);

Buying / Finance / Depreciation
Insurance
Hangar / Accommodation - this offsets maintenance corrosion etc.
Annual Service
Mandatory ADs Upgrades (Mode S) etc.Variable Costs - the more you use the more you pay (generally)

FUEL - Argghhhh OMG How much!
Scheduled Maintenance
Unscheduled MaintenanceIf you need to pay the bills every month you need to have the SO set up from all the sharers to pay the money on 1st of each month. No Quibbles.

So cut a long story short you need to split the standing costs between the sharers and it doesn't really matter how you do it across how many sharers as long as the costs are covered and divided by the number of hours flown a year work out substantially less than renting.

Problem is they will never work out with everyone's perceived "ideal world" where there are 4 owners all paying £100pm plus £200ph wet flying 20-30 hours a year. Aircraft is always available - but if that's the case it's really not efficient! You need to fly the aircraft at least 250, better 300 hours a year to get the standing and per hour costs low enough.

The only way it works is to have few owners flying shed loads of hours and most people that can afford that don't have the time to do that, or more people flying less hours each and paying less each. Either way it's nearly the same availability and stress on the aircraft.

SO I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A COUPLE MORE POTENTIAL NON-PROFIT SHARERS FOR A POSSIBLE R44 R2 BASED OUT OF NORTH/WEST LONDON (Wycombe, Denham, Waltham) with or without equity ownership

Anyone seriously interested in flying 20-30 hours plus at roughly half commercial rental rates please PM/EM me pronto. I'll send some data back by email.

Thanks

CC