Cheap aircraft hire in the East.

[mike172]

I start a new job on Monday and therefore will be looking to get back into flying again! I'm looking to build my hours up (on a bit of a budget!) so if any of you guys know of any SEP aircraft around the Cambridge area I could hire on the cheap that would be great.

Cheers

[Pilot DAR]

Hey Mike,

Not to sound unkind, or trying to flame you or the like, but...

We read on here about people who are unhappy with "spam cans", and frequently complaining about their lives being put at risk by poor maintenance, and old, uncared for aircraft. If you find a "cheap" aircraft to fly, you're not going to come back later complaining that it was an unsafe piece of junk are you?

We get what we pay for in life. I hope that you're not only willing, but indeed eager to pay what an aircraft is actually fairly worth to operate. I sense that you are not looking to rent a sparkling new top of the line IFR equipped fancy bird, but I hope that you are serious about fairly rewarding the person who would make available to you a safe but modest aircraft, in which you can feel confident and relaxed, not looking over your shoulder that whole time you're in the air, afraid of the bang or sudden silence.

23 years ago I drew together every dollar I had, and bought a very modest, but well maintained C150. I still own it, and it is even better maintianed and better equipped now. Over the years, new paint, new interior, new radios, zero engine, and 2600 hours of flying it. I'm lucky enough to get to fly half million dollar aircraft from time to time, but I depend upon the safety and reliability of a well maintained C150, which is ready at any time I want to fly. It's not "cheap", it's fair. There is a cost of get off the ground, I hope you are happy to pay it. If you are, there will be people happy to provide you with a good aircraft.

Offering and expecting less, will not get you what you want in the long run, and I fear that you'll be back here complaining about it...

Sorry to not sound more encouraging, but take it from someone who pays to maintain and equip a very modest aircraft properly - if someone asked to use it for "cheap" the answer would be "no".

I hope that you find what you're looking for, but your approach might benefit from a rethink...

Pilot DAR

[Piper.Classique]

Thank you DAR for saying what I would have said, but better. We love and cherish our Cub, but it is not cheap flying. It is value for money flying, and that is fine by us.

[mike172]

Bloody hell. You know what I meant, don't be so petty.

I don't have a lot of money and I need to build some hours. Simple.
I don't want something that's going to fall out of the sky - obviously. All I'm looking for is a simple, modest aeroplane without any fancy bits of kit stuck on.

[englishal]

How cheap is cheap? Have any capital? Our aeroplane costs me £65 per hour wet, but the share cost me £6660.

[Pilot DAR]

Bloody hell. You know what I meant, don't be so petty

Well, I'm not sure what you meant, but I know what I understood, you want to fly an aircraft which is being partly funded by someone other than you. Being a person who pays all of the costs to maintain an aircraft to somewhat better than it's design standard, I really try to avoid being petty. If there's a cost I pay it. I don't ask those people who provide products and services for my aircraft if they can do it cheap. I ask the price, and quietly make my decision as to their service, or someone else's. Price may play a factor, quality and service more likely to.

Please consider the audience you are writing to here. Many are owners, who have worked hard and saved their money to afford enough of an aircraft to fly safely. Probably everone here can imagine a more exotic aircraft they would fly if they had the money/opportunity, but we happily go along through aviation proud of what we have achieved.

I have certainly given a few hours of completely free flying to pilots I have met - some here. They each took away a little flying in a nice C150, and some of my wisdon, for whatever value that may hold. None of them ever uttered "blood hell", or accused me of being petty, they all seemed more appreciative than that...

When you own an aircraft you may operate it in accordance with the prevailing national aviation regulations, and thereafter, however you want. Until you own an aircraft, you may find that a positive, appreciative, "willingly pay your own way" attitude toward owners will get you farther. I assure you that not all owners intend to extract the full cost of operating an aircraft from pilots they like whom they may invite to fly it. Personally speaking, the offer of paying the cost to operate that aircraft goes a long way to making an owner feel that receiving payment is not so important.

Just advice from another perspective - and it's free!

[TheOptimist]

Pilot he's not asking for a discussion on morality. You are being extremely petty.

He wants a cheap and cheerful aircraft. Quite why you assume cheap means 'unsafe' and 'unfair' bemuses me.

[Pilot DAR]

Quite why you assume cheap means 'unsafe' and 'unfair' bemuses me.

Well, because I perpetually read here about people's critsizms of poorly maintained "spam cans" (I interpret "cheap"). If the aviation consumer wants to fly "good" aircraft, so they don't have to worry about their safety (or pilot image) being at risk, they have to set up and willingly pay the price. Asking for "cheap" is a step back, not a step up. The providers of aircraft will not profit, and advance their service, if the consumer is not willing to pay. Why would a person advertize to the aviation rental industry that they want "cheap" aircraft? Why encourage that portion of the industry, at the expense of those who provide a well maintained aircraft - you can't have it both ways!

Oh, and my being petty? Ooops, sorry, I really don't care that much either way. I know a lot of owners, and how they view the attitude of pilots who would like to use their aircraft. There are at least two types of non-owner pilots, and those who seek or refer to aircraft as "cheap", send the less good message to the owner. Really, the outcome of a discussion like this, does not affect me in the slightest. I've earned my way, I own my plane, keep it at home, and fly whenever I want. I just thought I'd offer a bit of a word to the wise, as to how to not send the wrong message to owners - but my plane is not up for rent anyway, so all the best to Mike, and sorry to ruffle your feathers, there's a plane out there for you somewhere, fly it like you really value it...

Pilot DAR

[mike172]

Okay then, replace the word 'cheap' with the word 'affordable'. Happy now?

[Lister Noble]

The best way for you is probably group ownership.
Buy a share and costs wet should be lower than any hire charge aircraft.
The more you fly the cheaper it becomes pro rata,and aircraft availablity is usually good.
Need to find a group that wants you and that you can afford.:)
Lister

[mike172]

Thanks Lister,

I'm only 21 and have about 70 hours so I'm not sure if any group would want me! I also don't have any capital so I would have to borrow some money.

I'll have a look at some groups around my area.

[jxc]

I have a share available in a Cessna 172 based near Braintree yours for £5500 £70pm and £66ph wet ?very well looked after

[Molesworth 1]

When it comes to hiring a SEP in the UK perhaps a better way of putting it would be "reasonable" as against "why so much?". For a Cessna 152 the going rate is in the region of £100 per hour for "reasonable". Many of these aircraft are well looked after - some not so well (you know who you are!). Some establishments charge around £130 for reasons known only to themselves. In my experience they are no different to the ones that cost around a £100 (except for the "not so well " at looking after aircraft people mentioned above).

We do have a CAA in this country and some of their number have the job of making sure aircraft are well looked after and they do that job pretty well, in my opinion.

Reading the AAIB reports I don't see many accidents put down to poor maintenance. Those that are (and they are very few - someone correct me here if I'm wrong) tend to involve owner-pilots. Homebuilts seem to feature slightly more than other types.

So hence the word "cheap" used by the original poster. I assume Mike172 means "not unreasonable".

Many of us love flying but have to be realistic about the amount of money that is available. Some posters seem to be of the opinion that pilots without wads of cash should stay on the ground. This is nonsense. Having less experience means making an extra effort to fly safely and being very cautious to fly within one's own limitations.

[englishal]

Well, because I perpetually read here about people's critsizms of poorly maintained "spam cans" (I interpret "cheap").
That is not entirely fair. We have a superb aeroplane, so superb it was featured in Flyer in April ;) It is cheap, shares are relatively cheap, the cost to fly is £65 per hour WET, and we have our own hangar of which we sublet half.

It is "cheap" flying, no doubt, but not poorly maintained and is maintained to CAA standards.

[znww5]

Mike 172 - I'd go and ask on the Flyer forum if I were you.

You'll get a civilised response and wouldn't have to waste your time on tub-thumpers, axe-grinders and a few who should be in therapy!

[mike172]

znww5 - thanks, I'll try there as well. I've had some decent offers here though, so thanks to everyone! :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

I'm only 21 and have about 70 hours so I'm not sure if any group would want me!

Niether of those is a negative. Niether should make a group unwilling to accept a person who presents as a likeable, responsible pilot. Skill can be learned, and being older just happens on its own. The trick is to "get into the fold" with people, either individuals, or a group, who are already doing what you would like to be doing, and go along with them if they will have you. Some polite flattery is often beneficial in smoothing that path. Anyone in aviation who meets a 21 year old pilot, will probably make the assumption that the pilot is not gushing money, and if they take a liking to that pilot, help them along. Many of us who have who have reached a level, are happy to GIVE back to those just starting.

I have gone to great effort to mentor new and potential pilots who demonstrated an eagerness, and desire to "join the group". I flew a new person for about an hour just now, and will give (no money) them hours more if they ask. That person impressed me as really being appreciative of my effort, in my modest, affordable airplane. On the flip side, I was given (no money) 21.7 hours of turbine helicopter flying opportunity last week, which I very certainly could not have afforded to pay for (I'm not cheap, but I don't have money like that floating around). The generous people involved knew that, and nothing more was said. Trust me when I tell you that the word "cheap" is not a part of helicopter flying in any way, and surely did not use it!

Words like petty, morals and therapy have factored in this thread, and that's okay, if it satisfied the person's desire to communicate that theme. But, it goes way beyond what I had originally intended as a simple word to the wise that it's pretty difficult to approach a person with an aircraft, and ask if it's cheap, without running the risk of offending that person, and starting off on the wrong foot with them. Whatever plane a person has, they probably have pride in it, and cheap is not in their way of thinking about it. One person's cheap is another person's expensive, so it's all relative anyway. From what I read, I suspect that I would be doing a lot less flying were I to be doing it in the UK, because I could not afford it! Ok, I suppose it's cheap to fly in Canada!

"making the most of my flying dollar (pound)", "limited budget", and similar terms about your objective may serve your interest more favourably. Everyone knows that new pilots would like to fly, and cannot afford as much as they would like to do, let people take a liking to you, and see how it works out for you. Telling them you'd like to be cheap does not add any value to your message in my opinion. I do understand that this opinion has offended others here, that was certainly not the intent, as I tried to relay in my very first sentence. In days past when I said something which did not serve my interest well, every now and again, a word to the wise would come my way, and after a few, I began to listen. Resist if you wish, you will find your way in any case.

I've received a word to the wise too often not to owe a few back, That's why I'm here, offering my thoughts, for good, or bad - you decide. On that theme, if Mike172 is in Ontario in the future, I'll share a few hours on my C-150 at zero cost, just to put my money where my mouth is. You know my PM...

Pilot DAR

[Molesworth 1]

You'll get a civilised response and wouldn't have to waste your time on tub-thumpers, axe-grinders and a few who should be in therapy!


cheap shot?

[Lister Noble]

I think I had around the same hours total , including a tailwheel rating ,as you when I was accepted into our L4 Cub group.
I had an insurance excess loading of £250 until I reached 100 hrs.ie I had an excess of £750 against our normal £500.But of course I would only have to pay this in the case of an accident that was my fault.
Regarding age,I was 63,is that less or more of a risk.?;);)
Good luck
Lister

[salmabambi]

This may at first sound daft .... but stop messing around in C150's for £100 an hour -- step up to the plate and move up to something more exciting. I rent a 6 seat Piper Lance with all the biz for £180 an hour. Ok it is a bit more ... but you get one hell of an aircraft that really brings the pilot out in you ... plus you can take a shed load of mates with you .. who may like to chip in if funds are really tight ???. The other thing people do not consider is ... a Cessna 150 cruises ( thrashed !!! ) at what 80 - 90 knots tops -- sorry never flown one -- the Lance fast cruises at 210 kts ---- you can go a hell of alot further for that extra couple of quid in the same period, in a more comfortable aircraft, with a lot more people and enjoy being much more of a pilot ...... sorry to those who wish to doodle around freezing cold in microlites.... come on hone those skills. You can move upto an Arrow for £140 ish an hour.

Quality flying is what it is all about ... or you will just land up with the £100 an hour bacon buttey flown alone in a C150 !!!.

Hey ... I drive a truck for a living ... so I'm hardly on Bankers money.


One medical away from walking

Steve

[fernytickles]

You have a Lance that cruises at 210kts? What do you put in it, lighter fluid?

enjoy being much more of a pilot ...... sorry to those who wish to doodle around freezing cold in microlites.... come on hone those skills.

hmmm - you really want to earn friends on here, don't you...... :rolleyes:

The aeroplane doesn't make someone a better or worse pilot, that comes from within. The aeroplane challenges, or enables.

[FREDAcheck]

This may at first sound daft
You're quite right! It does sound a teensy weensy bit daft when the OP said he's after cheap flying.

[Intercepted]

This may at first sound daft .... but stop messing around in C150's for £100 an hourYes salmabambi, it is daft and I couldn't disagree more with you. There is a large group of pilots chosing to move from a warm, fast and comfortable aeroplane to vintage planes such as Cubs, Tiger Moths etc.

To me, and i'm sure to others, it seems that you are missing out totally of what flying really is about.


... but you get one hell of an aircraft that really brings the pilot out in you

What exactly does a Lance bring out of you as a pilot? :ugh:
Try to fly an old, uncomforable and cold biplane, that's an art form.

If I want to fly fast, far and comfortable I'll book a ticket with an airliner :rolleyes:

[FREDAcheck]

Poor old Mike172's probably got fed up and gone away, after getting sermons about unsafe aircraft, and then people telling him it's worth the "extra couple of quid" for a Piper Lance!

If you want to rent, I suggest you phone round all the airfields within driving distance and ask their rental rates. No point getting second hand info here. On a limited survey, I've found that the further from London, the cheaper the hire rates.

[hatzflyer]

God you read some crap on here! (From a happy pilot..lots of flying not so much paying but doing everything wrong according to all the posts on here).:ugh:

[gasax]

IIRC the VNE of a Lance is 188kts - or thereabouts. So interesting comments from Steve - who may be less than a medical from walking!

Hours builders are generally an unloved bunch - especially by groups. So you may well struggle to access the cheapest sort of flying.

Ringing around the local clubs and then visiting and talking to the most promising is probably your best bet. Mid week you should be able to get a resonable discount - but of course never pay upfront.....

Unless you can find a group that wants their aircraft to be flown a lot more - it does happen occasionally!

[englishal]

Our aeroplane is underused, because of the 6 members, 5 also own other aeroplanes. Someone like Mike would be welcome in our group (but lives too far away), which could use more utilisation on the aeroplane, is a simple and safe SEP for "my first aeroplane" and is cheap to operate. £65 per hour covers fuel, routine maintenance, and contributes to the fund. Monthly standing charge of about £100 pm covers own hangar, airfield use, and insurance, and contributes a bit to the fund.

Two of our members joined with relatively low hours, one straight from PPL so there was about a £300 insurance loading until they had 25 hrs on type / 100 hrs I think. There was also a stipulation of 10 hrs dual with another club member before soloing. For the first year this member paid this loading himself, but due to the contribution he has made to the group at the next renewal the group took this additional cost on and split it between us. One year on he is approaching 100 hrs and is a vauable group member that all of us are happy to fly with. I enjoy it because it gives my flying a purpose. I'm happy to sit there and chat on the radio and navigate for him as it gives him the experience he needs, and means that I'd go to places that I normal wouldn't bother. Also we might do things that he wouldn't normally do if on his own - for example climb up ontop and enjoy the view from 7500' rather than scud running at 2000....

It is a brilliant way to fly, and to gain further experience. Still I am not a real pilot yet as I have yet to fly a Lance.

[Flyingmac]

I fly a spamcan and a Eurostar. Any guesses as to which one is half the cost and twice the fun?

[Molesworth 1]

It seems Mike172 got far more help posting the same question on Flyer Forums. Straightforward replies, no little lectures, slandering, bullying, posterring, bragging, belittling etc etc what seems to be the norm here.

The even welcomed him!

[hatzflyer]

Spamcan and Eurostar ?
funny how these things change over the years.. "spamcan"= aircraft made of metal ( thin metal = span can). When used as a derogatory term it is usualy used to mean a nosewheel aircraft of fairly benign handling.

Isn't a Eurostar a metal aircraft (extra thin?), nosewheel benign handling ?

Another one that has crept in of late...Nosedragger. Now I can understand how you can drag your tail behind you, hence "taildragger", but how the hell can you drag your nose in front of you?

[Zulu Alpha]

Another one that has crept in of late...Nosedragger. Now I can understand how you can drag your tail behind you, hence "taildragger", but how the hell can you drag your nose in front of you?

I suppose we could call them nosepushers!!

ZA

[Molesworth 1]

And here I was thinking Eurostar was a train!