Ryanair TR Funding

[BBPilot2009]

Do ryanair have a deal or partnership with any banks or loan providers?

The way Oxford do/did with the HSBC.... You basically take your letter of acceptance from Oxford to the bank, and they pretty much give you £65,000 no questions asked (well minimum)

Do ryanair do anything like that.... or do you really need to find the £30,000 alone!

I would imagine the majority of people applying for ryanair are unemployed pilots, already in debt, and little chance of a bank actually saying "yes" to a £30,000 loan

[EK4457]

I believe you can get a statement of 'expected' earnings and a copy of your contract from Brookfield.

Not much use as it basically confirms that you are self employed and not guaranteed a penny during your employment. I'm not sure what the banks think of this, particularly as you say, most will already have their fair share of debt already.

Other than that, you are on your own to sort yourself out. But get used to it as thats how life with FR is.

EK

[TheBeak]

They use mummy and daddys house value or they use their own that their spouse has contributed towards. What's the word? Parasite.

[Torque Tonight]

Beak, who the :mad: do you think you are? You know nothing about my, or my colleagues', personal financial circumstances yet you never miss an opportunity to have a swipe based on your own speculation. It is a real nuisance that no-one can have a sensible conversation about Ryanair because almost single-handedly you always divert the thread into a dick-fight based on your own personal vendetta. Let it go man.

I don't have to justify myself to a bitter, unemployed and unemployable cretin like yourself but suffice to say that I have no debt for my licences and my TR was funded by previous overpayments into the mortgage which is in my sole name. Some of us have worked damn hard over many years to get where we are. Your post is inaccurate and offensive. Give it up for God's sake.

[TheBeak]

Torque tonight, you're a parasite. I'll give my opinion/view and that is that. It shows a real lacking in your intelligence (that is you ability to understanding) and your weighting that you feel the need to resort to vulgarity on so many occasions. You may have 'worked' for your mortgage, I don't care, but many, many, many of your colleagues have not.

End of.

You claim to have been an RAF pilot before - probably more like RAF regiment.

[Torque Tonight]

Do please explain how I am a parasite. No other person is carrying any debt on my behalf, and my entire training has been paid for with money that I have saved in advance. I try to restrain myself from vulgarity and think I have given you quite an easy ride given your posting history.

You may have 'worked' for your mortgage, I don't care, but many, many, many of your colleagues have not.
Right, you don't care about the facts. You're just going to throw around accusations based on assumptions anyway. You don't actually know anything about my colleagues either. Unless you've read their bank statements I suggest you stop pontificating about their finances.

You claim to have been an RAF pilot before - probably more like RAF regiment. You can convince yourself that I was an RAF potato peeler if you like. Never let the facts get in the way of a good outburst.

[ryanairpilot42]

I still cant belive how much of a tit TheBeak is on here!

he really is in every post about info on Ryanair, why dont you do us a favor and start a thread called I hate Ryanair and talk to people in it who give a rats ass about what you want to say and leave alone the genuine posts from people who are after genuine advice and not just your own twisted pretty false and uneducated advice.

in other words sod off been a bitter :mad: all your life

[TheBeak]

Thanks for giving me an easy ride Torque Tongiht - I wish Ryanairpilot42 had (Who I'd question whether he/she actually is a 'Ryanair pilot' - a name like that makes me think of the Shakespeare line 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much') - if you have to say it, it probably isn't terribly obvious and thus not quite true.

I don't need to know many of your colleagues to know their financial circumstances - I went to an integrated FTO, I know how most paid for their training and know how most of the Ryanair '3rd series brigade' paid for their TRs.

BBpilot2009 asked a question and I answered the most common method people use. People who use others wealth and allow others to take the risks and make the effort on their behalf are in my book a parasite, a scab and like a pair of pants, always on the bum.

in other words sod off been a bitter t**t all your life


You probably should have stuck to the previous words because these ones show you to be an iliiterate yob who clearly doesn't understand basic words in the English language, the ICAO professional language for flying. Sod off been (is that possibly being? or if you are from a rough part of the country bein'?a bitter t**t all of your life.

No doubt there'll be claims I am being petty and rising to the bait. I am not. I am just proving the intellect and thus credibility of a few numptys whos views should be taken with a pinch of salt. The views are desperately slewed and devoid of any justification. They sell the idea that Ryanair is the only way, that short termism is the way forward and that the self worth is for those who get left behind. Remember the tortoise and the hare? There will be consequences to your actions of joining Ryanair, ones that extend far beyond the mythical £60K a year starting salary. As they say, every dog has its day.

[BigNumber]

I suspect 'Beak' is probably quite correct in his assertion that the Bank of Mum and Dad is often the preferred RYR loan provider.

Unlike most 'contracting' arrangements, the absence of a guaranteed minimum days of work has the banks searching for a 'second exit'. After all, MOL might decide to 'slice the hours cake more thinly' in the future as more eager BRK cadets arrive?

On a personal note; I would like to take the opportunity to thank the BRK Cadets for their continued RYR patronage. Not only do they subsidize my cheap flights to the sun but, most importantly, their RYR fixation means they don't mess up my T's and C's.

Frankly, on a personal level, I fail to see any down side to the BRK / RYR opportunity. I hope every new pilot entering the employment market joins RYR. They get 'hours' and 'Gold Bars'; we get cheap flights and no competition for our jobs!

[Torque Tonight]

Yes, no doubt many, especially the younger guys, are financially backed up by their families. I am not going to venture any opinion on that here. However, Beak's sweeping generalisations are just that (as are many of the 'facts' he asserts concerning Ryanair). To call such people parasites is not reasonable discussion in my opinion and a decent person would probably offer a retraction or an apology. Doubt we'll see that then.

Beak is entitled to his opinion (although flawed) on Ryanair, and makes that opinion well know at every opportunity by sabotaging and hijacking what would otherwise be constructive and rational discussion. His steadfast self-belief in the face of opposition is in a way admirable, and I hope that he is content in holding the moral high ground of not joining Ryanair as he stands in the dole queue.

For many, with expensive qualifications sitting idle, ratings expiring, skills deteriorating as time goes by and training becoming a distant memory, joining Ryanair is a very sound career move, at a time when the business is in tatters. Beak may genuinely believe that his unemployment at the moment is a wise career strategy but we will have to agree to disagree. If Beak can find anyone who regrets joining Ryanair, his broken record argument may carry more weight.

Now back on topic, no, Ryanair do not have finance arrangements. It is up to the individual to sort out. If you can't give a straight answer like that, Beak, without throwing abuse around, then do us all a favour and button it.

[TheBeak]

I am not offering a retraction or an apology because I haven't personally offended anyone. The views, opinions and words that I speak are, to my mind, matter of fact. I do however apologise if I have raised your blood pressure at all TT.

Me calling such people parasites is no more a misnomer than you saying I am sabotaging and hijacking these threads.

I am not unemployed however I am not an employed pilot at the moment. I am in some pilot holdpools and I am waiting longingly to be picked up. I do believe that not taking the easy, expensive and short term option is the correct option for me and anyone else. If I wasn't in the holdpools I would feel the same.

The fact of the matter is most, and not all, Ryanair TR trainees have paid for the training on the back of their parents homes. I would put the level of debt, including the term, for the average uni graduate Ryanair pilot at about £175000. That is insane. It shouldn't be an option.

If you're an ex RAF guy or girl that has served their full commission, time may not be so on your side, training debts will be far less and I can see some logic to a Ryanair TR for someone like yourself......for what it is worth.

[Torque Tonight]

I'll take that as a partial apology. Well done and good luck.

[BigNumber]

I would understand that RYR are particularly attracted to the younger pilot demographic. This being the case I fail to understand how the 'Dowry' can be paid by anything but 'old money'?

To this end, I must agree that 'Beak' is quite accurate, albeit parasite is an unfortunate choice of word.

[TheBeak]

TT, please do and it was.:)

Big Number, it's nice that you are often able to offer some support to certain things I say, cheers. I know it is not necessarily for my benefit but it is good that you can be bothered to comment when you do agree rather than be a bystander and allow me to take it from every angle!

Parasite may be a better choice of word than you think:

parasite (plural parasites (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parasites))

(biology) A (generally undesirable) living organism that exists by stealing the resources produced/collected by another living organism. Lice, fleas, ticks and mites are widely spread parasites.
(pejorative) A person who relies on other people's efforts and gives little back (originally a sycophant (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sycophant)).parasite - Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parasite)

Both meanings I feel are apposite.

[McNulty]

Can someone please explain how calling people parasites is not a bannable offence?

[TheBeak]

Now you really are getting off topic McNulty, maybe start a thread asking.

Perhaps it is not bannable because it isn't a swear word and it is a word that is being used, by me, to concisely describe the way I feel about people who pay for a TR.

Perhaps I will be banned for it. Who knows? Who cares? Not me buddy. Don't lose sleep over it.

I hope that helps.:}

[BigNumber]

stealing the resources produced/collected

I am only acquainted with 2 RYR Pilots; both young, and both funded 100% by parents.

These parents very willingly supported the TR Training hence my inability to use the term 'parasite'. These aviation savvy fathers viewed RYR as the only way to progress their childs career within the 'shelf life' of a frozen ATPL.

Nothing was stolen. It was a calculated act of support. To wit; a knowledge based decision.

But; the ubiquitous factor is the 'Old Money' / Bank of Mum and Dad that funds this fast track career move. The concept of 'Speedy Boarding' being applied to wannabe pilots.

However mercinary, I am really glad that the RYR fixation continues and the wannabe army has been unable to move laterally into other area's of aviation.

[blackred1443]

do banks really offer loans based on the expected earnings on a crookfield contract in todays climate.incredible

while saying everyone one who does the ryr tr is a parasite is probably a bit rough im sure there are many that do it off their own backs and in a way that is quite admirable in my opinion

i think alot of the pilots ryr seem to hire are quite young.alot i guess must be therefore be doing it via the bank of mummy and daddy.while there is nothing wrong with this either it is a little frustrating to those that dont have that options because its then no longer a battle of just who is the most suitable candidate for the job but rather whose daddy has the deepest pockets. but lets face it, its not just the occasional young pilot who needs daddy and mummy to help them.so many of these pathetic z list celebrities live off daddys reputation too.its unfortunately becoming a regular thing. i do wonder though at what point in their lives to these people learn to stand on their own 2 feet.does daddy give them a deposit for a house,buy little johnny a car maybe.not sure i'd be comfortable with that

hang on in here the beak and others like you.i didnt have daddys money to fall back on for a tr and i got there in the end in a crap jobs market.it just means you have to show alot of initiative when it comes to finding a job, rather than asking poppy to write a cheque for 35k and then feed you while you do the rating.makes it that bit sweeter when you do get there as you know it was all your doing:ok:

apologise for my appauling spelling must ask daddy to buy me some specs!

[TheBeak]

Blackred1443, a fair post and the spelling was pretty good. I completely agree with you - I am a million miles from a socialist, make that a million light years but I do think people should work for what they have. I appreciate though that mum and dad will always do their best to help - mine would happily have done too, they offered several times but I honestly would never have trained to be a pilot on the collateral in their house. I can safely say, right now, I am incredibly relieved, happy and relaxed that I didn't take up their kind offer.

The Glide, I have genuinely paid for all of my training myself with the help of an unsecured loan - mine isn't crippling me though. Bar a couple of trial lessons at the very beginning I have paid for every flying hour I have had myself. As for my rating, the airline paid for it, in full.

I will be watching it, nodding my head in approval.:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The money will run out in 18 months to two years, and the government will have to accept that Aer Lingus needs a strong parent company, and that parent is Ryanair


MOL. Hmmm, contract long haul pilots on minimum wage with a Shannon pre-clearance of US immigration. I can actually see Ryanair Longhaul working.

WWW

[CommandB]

Thebeak- So what? Would you like a medal for that? Are you implying that because someone has had financial help from banks, parents...etc they are less intitled to a job than you because you have paid with your own money? You sound like your trying to be some kind of martyr.
Im a "young" pilot but have worked hard all my "young" life. I could write out a very long list of achievements for you however its none of your business how I came to be in the position I am in today - although I will say I had financial help with the TR because I wanted to take up a great offer, otherwise id probably be on here 24/7 asking for advice and listening to people like you. I dont regret my decision at all - been doing this job for a while now and had my TR paid off in 5 months.
Unfortuantely the days of the airline paying for your rating are all but gone. The sooner people realise that in the long run it makes no difference, the sooner they will be in the right hand seat. simple.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Fortunately I disagree with you.

The paid for £75k course and the paid for £33k type rating were the result of an unsustainable credit boom largely based on an unsustainable inflation of house prices. Its over. Its part collapsed with more collapsing to follow.

In time the ability of Wannabe to self fund 6 digit training costs will abate as credit is withdrawn. Very VERY few 20 or 30 year olds have access to £100,000 in cash. They may have access to it via personal or parental credit but that is NOT the same as access to it in cash.

As unemployment rises and the economic situation deteriorates airlines will not require new pilots so thankfully supply will meet demand. The flying schools will be the ones squeezed to death. So many fixed costs, such cut throat competition, dwindling demand - toxic.

WWW

[TheBeak]

I wouldn't mind a medal commandB if you are offering? A platinum one which says I didn't have someone else pay for my training on it.:E

I was asked a question:

Why dont you tell everyone how you funded your training and a 737 rating.


And I answered it.

You paid for your £33K TR + interest and an early payment charge in 5 months? Smells like either bull:mad: or you are going to say you had the VAT back and claimed back in tax blah blah blah - how much tax were you paying? In fact, how much are you being paid in order for your tax to pay that back? In 5 months? Who paid for your rent and your food and your car and your training debt while you were paying of the 33K debt? Not being a parasite again are you? Your figures don't stack up. Pipe down. People really do have to be careful in listening to the pipe dream myths you lot come up with, you make it all sound so easy and care free. Little dreamer.

I agree with you on that WWW, very shortly things are going to change.

[blackred1443]

im not sure he wants a medal for it.again its only my opinion but when you hear people explaining how they became a self made millionaires it sounds quite admirable and inspiring.now im not claiming getting a pilots licence is anywhere approaching that level of achievement.at the same time there is an achievement and for me and i repeat only my opinion it doesnt quite have the same ring to it as mummy and daddy paid for it.

im not suggesting either that everyone is like this but the danger is if you get it easy it loses alot of its value.no real sacrifice involved.it also makes it an elitists career, only for those that can afford to throw money at it.surley not what you want.one can also lose perspective.

i am curious to know how someone pays for a tr with the interest on top of other training loans and survives on what ryr pay initially. 5 months would certainy be an achievement.

may i just ask one question and please dont bite my head off but those that have relied on parental help, why didnt ye wait save, sacrifice and fund the dream on your own.and beore someone tells me its not possible,it is.not a loaded question

also because parents generally want he best for their kids do they now put themselves in serious debt.i imagine quite a few families are in the crap financially trying to fund juniors dream right now.maybe junior needs to learn to get a job, save then pay for it himself.right now id love a four bed house unfortunately like most of the world you have to be patient rather than banging of the folks door.

[TheBeak]

Exactly Blackred, the most successful people are self made. The way I see it is a bit like this, the difference between someone who pays for their own training or takes their own debt and someone who has their parents back them is like the difference between someone who goes to the gym and puts in the time with resistance training and someone who goes and gets plastic surgery. The Ryanair guys and girls are nothing but fake, plastic tarts - it's all for show (except for the likes of TT of which there are some). Saving and working is resistance training - it's not easy, you hit walls and you'll 'feel the burn'.

Why don't they wait? Because they can only understand small numbers. It's a deep flaw in the less intelligent and something I used to 'exploit' people in my previous work. They don't understand a figure like £175000 of debt. And they never see it. It isn't really there. They do understand a £2400 a month pay cheque over a £1100 a month one though and they do understand 60 Euros an hour over £8 and hour and that is what they focus on. They don't understand the concept of opportunity cost. They don't appreciate the exponential effect their actions will have on their wealth in the future.



Opportunity cost or economic opportunity loss is the value of the next best alternative foregone as the result of making a decision.

I'd recommend really thinking about that in your decison making. Take into account terms and interest. Try and extrapolate a line into the future. Do everything you do for the right reasons. There is nothing more you can do.

It is not because the truth is too difficult to see that we make mistakes...... we make mistakes because the easiest and most comfortable course for us is to seek insight where it accords with our emotions - especially selfish ones.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/alexander_solzhenitsyn/)

[McNulty]

Good old beak, still spending his entire life on pprune trying to belittle ryanair pilots in a horribly arrogant manner. Oh well i guess i would be bitter too in the company of people who fly 737s if i was stocking shelves in tesco for a living.

Get a life man, go find a girlfriend or something.

[TheBeak]

I guess I would be too if I was in that position. I must add to my post, the Ryanair pilots I don't like are the 18-22 year olds who have done a tin pot degree/no degree, done a full integrated course and then the TR with Ryanair. Those are the 'pilots' I speak of.

On the topic of what you have said McNutjob, What is the effect of going from flying to a more professional job than shelf stacking, earning say 50K a year and then trying to come back to flying? How will the airlines react given the current times? Would they have a problem with that and see it as turning my back on flying? It is a case of having to do what I have to do. My full intention is to come back to flying......In fact I will be coming back to flying. Would it matter or would it be irrelevant to an airline?

[EK4457]

been doing this job for a while now and had my TR paid off in 5 months.

Calm down. £30,000 in 5 months is £6,000 per month. Considering you dont even get paid for pretty much the first month, and factor in interest and early repayment charges, you would need to be earning even more to pull off this miraculous feat.

Or mabe you are on your own payscale?

Either that, or you are talking absolute BS.

Even some dodgy tax fiddling which seems to be the BRKFLD way can't make the figures add up.

This is not a personal attack. It's just that you are displaying the classic, mainly young, wannabe characteristic of making up rubbish to make you feel you have made the right chioce in getting your mum/dad/self into upto £100,000 of debt. And to show for it all, you have a very weak 'contract' with a company which has another contract with a company who has THE worst terms and conditions that the EU has to offer.

If you want The Beak and the likes to stop banging on, then a hefty slice of realist honesty would be the best cure.

If you said somthing along the lines of;

'look, I was lucky enough to have the resources which allowed me to get my fATPL and then pay for a type rating which is shamelesly 50% overpriced. I weighed up the options and decided to go for it. I owe those who paid for me a lot of thanks and I hope that it works out for me and them.

However, the job is far from ideal, the company treats you poorly and it is not for everybody. You will be paying this off for over a decade. Think carefully.'

Then I think there would be very little room to critisize you.

But you come out with dangerous rubbish. So you you get hammered.

It's called confirmation bias.

EK

[TheBeak]

Hear, hear EK4457, you have said it perfectly. Really very nicely put.

[stefair]

Very interesting debate again. May I please hijack this thread for a moment?

I spoke to a RYR pilot the other day who told the story of a guy who got chopped during line training. According to him the line trainig captain just stood up to him after a flight or a sim session and told him he would not make it. The guy basically got the boot. No reasons given. If this is true, holy sh:mad:, it scares the crap out of me, considering the personal investment this guy had made. But why did he get kicked out?

My question to those flying for RYR, in all honesty (I know it happens with any airline, not too often though I would think!) have you witnessed this before and what are the reasons why some people do not make it all the way to line release? I mean I would think that the sim ride gives the training captain a rough idea as to how good the applicant's flying is and whether he will pass the TR course and what comes after that. So why is it that a very few do fail later on? Are they arrogant? Do they not do what they are being told?

[blackred1443]

no one has ever failed traiing without being given reasons.complete b"£$%^&

[jimmyjetplane]

Hey beak......!

Do you really fly for an Airline?This forum is supposed to be an informative sight not some bl...dy chat room!

All I can say is you must have plenty of time off, to spend writing the rubbish we have to read on here!Why don't you find a hobby or something?Maybe fishing so you can sit talking to yourself all day!:D

[IrishJetdriver]

Yes people do fail the TR and yes they do fail the base training and yes you can fail line training.

Paying for a TR is no guarantee whatsoever of reaching the necessary standard. Just the same as if the airline was paying.

Ryanair set a very high standard that has to be achieved. It needs to know it's people are the right people as a hull loss resulting from poor pilot ability would be very very serious.

For the ground school you simply need to know your stuff and answer the questions. For the sim and beyond it is about ability to perform. You are given chances but if you need extra sim sessions then you pay for them, and they're not cheap. You can still get chopped. It's not unusual to hear of people failing the base (circuits) training but the company will put them back in the sim and give them another crack at it. They don't charge for that. It's in their interest at this stage to try and get you through.

When I did my TR in 2007 one person from my course was chopped and also someone on the course behind us. Both were down to lack of ability. Pure and simple. Plenty of chances were given. Remedial training was given. Do bear in mind that your sim buddy is having to accompany you through all this even though of course they don't pay for the training they don't need. You do.

I also know of someone who was chopped during line training (easyjet) who simply couldn't land with any sort of consistency. They were given a lot of sectors but to no avail.

There is no chance that a trainer will just chop you for no reason. You'll be thoroughly debriefed. Written records are kept and it's all discussed with both you are your sim buddy together. If there's any chance of you getting chopped you'll be only too well aware of why and that it's a possibility.

Once you're in to any airline the struggle is not over. You will have to work harder than you would believe to make the grade. It's not easy but it does get easier and of course one day you'll look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

Get the job. Get your head down and enjoy it.

[blackred1443]

command b paid off a 30+k loan in 5 months as a junior f/o in ryr....please explain how exactly

i make that some where between 6 and 7 k a month.nice one:ok:

[TheBeak]

No I am not currently flying for an airline unfortunately. I have done in the past and will do in the future.

Yes you can fail the TR at Ryanair, I know of a guy who did because he couldn't land the plane in the base training, he just kept floating it. Poor bugger.

As for the hobby thing, unfortuantely mine is flying so it's a bit of a sad time for me.:{

[blackred1443]

not that i know anything about your mates case beak, i do find it strange that he was kicked out during base cx due to floating.any base cx i have done ( as an f/o)seem to be a bit of a jolly, the sim cx and line training are times when you really need to make the grade.but i always thought that with a base check unless you really cock it up you should be ok.unless of course this floating was getting into tail srape terrritory. i doubt landing distance was going to be a problem unless it was in a limiting airfield which woud be more than a little unfair.never can tell with ryr though:ok:

[Halfbaked_Boy]

he just kept floating it. Poor bugger.

Poor bugger how? If he kept floating it then he's obviously not cut out for the particular role then is he, and I'm sure the decision was made so a hundred odd 'innocent' pax wouldn't pay for his inabilities in the future!

I wouldn't normally comment on rubbish like this, but come on :p

p.s. flying doesn't count as a hobby if you 'are/were/will be in the future/delete as applicable' a professional pilot!

Ta!

[Sky Goose]

OMG, all these couch flyers, face palm....ever heard of being humble in your ignorance ?

Its no problem at all not knowing about the subject at hand, but when you pretend to....

- some people pay for training by their own means some borrow from a bank and some from parents..so what

- no one gets cut from training without extra sessions, long chats, and a session with a senior instructor.
had a mate on our TR course required an extra session and had to do the base training 3 times to get through, and is now a very competent FO.

- as for cutting someone who floats on a particular base training session...give me a break, things like that can be fixed, attitudes on the other hand are more difficult to remedy..

I have been with FR for 2 1/2 years and have found the training department to be nothing but fair and helpfull...so please lay off the scaremongering..

signing off in exasperation

Goose :ugh:

[TheBeak]

Poor bugger because he spunked a load of cash.

Aerobatics and GA flying class as a hobby if I want them to class as a hobby thanks.

[McNulty]

I know two guys who failed the base check with ryanair first time around, the first guy was put back in the sim at ryanairs expense and then passed the base check second time around. The other guy was also put back in the sim but failed it again a second time - so ryanair put him back in the sim again at their own expense and he passed on his 3rd attempt.

Ryanair dont drop people out of the blue if they have a couple of bad sim sessions thats ridiculous - if someone gets dropped from a tr course or line training/a base check you can be sure they were given every opportunity to succeed.

[EI-022]

People that have problems are given time to correct them. If they dont correct them, they dont pass. This is not a driving test which you can take 100 times then pass on lucky 101. This is testing for an aircraft , pick it up quick or else start sending CVs to your local bus company.

As for The Beak,

Do you have Ryanair experience, come on??
My mates at ryanair blah blah rubbish doesnt count.
Fair enough you dont like FR practices...dont partake in them, easy.

Your posts no longer hold any creditability. Nothing personal but they don't.
Where people source their funds is none of your business and the way you commit about them is disgusting. Your thinking will get you nowhere fast.

[blackred1443]

ei 022 while i agree calling these ryr hopefulls parasites might be a bit rough,saying someone i.e the beak has no credibility because you dont agree with there opinion is a little narrow minded.

as for saying the beaks thoughts will prevent him advancing in his career i fail to see how.i share some of his beliefs and it doesnt seemed to have held me back.quite the opposite infact.maybe you might to elaborate as to how

is think asking if he has any direct ryr experience relevant so he can have an opinion? no i'd imagine.do you have direct experience on everything you hold an opinion on,because i certainly don't

referring to mates experience is not rubbish is it?we base alot of our decisions on others experiences

i do agree with you about its not a driving test, and you do need to progress.but progress quickly...im not so sure.most trainers i have dealt with seem to be able to adjust their training methods and pace to suit the candidate and enjoy the challenge.i think alot does come down to the efforts of the candidate though

[TheBeak]

I do love it when people say things like:

Your posts no longer hold any creditability.

Are you the messiah? No? Then could you please put that my posts do not hold credibility to you rather than making a sweeping statement on behalf of the population? What's there to believe or not believe in? It isn't about believability. It is my opinion for people who are seeking advice to read, assimilate and compare with all the other opinions given on here.

as for cutting someone who floats on a particular base training session...give me a break, things like that can be fixed,

Yes they can be fixed. In this instance it wasn't. Poor speed control towards Vref, too early a flare and not pulling the thrust levers all the way back are all reasons for it so don't discard it as nonsense.

I also love it when all the 'cool dudes' come on and give their quick laissez faire 'definite article' post and then claim that they shaln't be checking back. The gods have spoken. Just rememeber boys and girls, you're nothing without your mummy and daddy. Where would you really be without them backing you? Not subsidising Ryanairs passengers.


particular role then is he

As always, assuming it was a male.

Blackred, thanks for answering the rest, I shaln't repeat what you have already written.

Where people source their funds is none of your business and the way you commit about them is disgusting.

I have spoken nothing but the truth and quoted natural rules and nobel peace prize winning writers.

Your thinking will get you nowhere fast

Thinking is a time consuming process, I'd say the same applies to anyone. My knowledge will get me anywhere and everywhere however, which can't be said for some of you.:E

[superdash]

Why don't you use some of it to get your arse out of the job centre?

[McNulty]

Thinking is a time consuming process, I'd say the same applies to anyone. My knowledge will get me anywhere and everywhere however, which can't be said for some of you.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Pfff...hahaha...so lets get it straight, your knowledge got you an fatpl by the most expensive means (integrated) and then it got you into a bankrupt airline and into the dole queue.

Wow beak you really are a genius. Do you realise that some people who joined ryanair did all their training modular ie. less than 50k - then paid for the type rating and are now earning in the region of 60 grand a year? Idiots!! They should have listened to you all along, and then maybe they would be flipping burgers in mcdonalds alongside you!

[stefair]

Thanks a lot guys for the many and elaborate answers!

It all makes a lot of sense what you are saying and I personally could not really believe that people get chopped without extra help provided or reasons given. After all people do learn at a different pace and making mistakes is just human and part of the game. I have found that flying is not easy but it definitely is not rocket science either. Becoming a proficient pilot is down to training and attitude.

The more I hear about RYR from the insight the more I get the impression the company is not bad at all. They do expect a high standard but they will help you succeed. After all they need a lot of pilots to fly their airplanes. All the bad rumors about them do not add up when you talk to people actually working for them. But I thought I would rather want to find out before I actually sign the check (should I ever get the chance to :rolleyes:)...

[TheBeak]

Ha ha ha......:{

I can imagine your little minds ticking over as to what I do and how I trained. You have this mental picture and it isn't correct. I am not jobless.

I don't think many of you have an fATPL. You're too cocky.

Anyway, I'll check back to see how things progress with this debate but I am not having an argument with a bunch of people I don't know and haven't met, on a computer.

[superdash]

The Beak, March 2007:

I am 22, have a PPL and have the money to complete the rest of my ATPL training with Oxford through their 'Waypoint' programme. I also have the opportunity to go to Sandhurst and be in the Army for 4 years and then do my pilot training. I do not have a degree though I did do a couple of years at uni doing Mechanical Engineering. Ultimately like everyone else on here, I am sure I want to be a commercial pilot. Is it going to add any value to someone like myself doing the Army for 4 years and then being qualified to fly at 27 or am I just as well off being 23 with an ATPL? I am interested to hear peoples opinions especially from those qualififed or who have jobs............

Thanks very much.

P.S. Army Air Corps is not an option as it would tie me into the Army for too long and would get me a military helo licence with not many hours which I do not see much value in. I have passed both Royal Naval and Army pilot selection and do not want to go down that road.
How did you manage to go from a silly little ppl holder to an all knowing chief test/training/super pilot in around 2.5 years?? I'm very impressed.

I love the fact that you say you passed the army and navy selection hahaha now that's funny.

By the way Mr Beak in March 2007 I was 22 years old with a whole 1 hours flying experience...now I fly in the RHS.

But I'm nowhere near as intelligent or knowledgeable as you. I'm just a lowly newbie pilot with **** all experience oh but I do get paid to fly aeroplanes. And no I don't want fries, thanks for asking.
:ok:

[Flintstone]

I'm watching this as a reader only and have my own opinions as to who are the real pilots here (and therefore qualified to comment) and who aren't.

The Beak and others can, I feel, safely ignore that famous Walt Halfbaked Boy* aka Phantasm** aka Reluctant737*** who in one thread wrote.... I'm not sure how a CAA reference number is generated in this case, as mine came from my PPL issue and was subsequently used for my medicals/ATPL exams

.....yet today said..... ....I'm only a humble PPL....


He's deleted some of the comments now but given his propensity for b*ll**** I've taken to saving them for posterity. Perhaps now he's out of the equation you can get on with debating the matter at hand.



*Claims to be a PPL, or is it fATPL?
**Claims to be a 747 skipper.
*** Claims to be a RYR FO.

[McNulty]

I can imagine your little minds ticking over as to what I do and how I trained. You have this mental picture and it isn't correct. I am not jobless.

My little mind is ticking over alright, seeing as you dont have a degree and no flying job and a pig ignorant stuck up attitude - im assuming that you are not exactly being head hunted into high paying jobs at the moment. I'll have forgotten about all this nonsense by tomorrow morning of course, as unlike you i have better things to do with my time than spend my life on pprune criticising strangers - like flying a 737 accross europe for example.

[wayupthere]

The part i don't get is why is it just ryr getting the bashing, last time I looked they're far from the only ones charging for TRs?
Theres plenty of guys and gals that paid for their overpriced TRs with other airlines and have gotten chopped for many reasons,

should this not be a industry in general bashing topic rather than JUST ryr?? :confused:

Oh and beak, is it ok to have mummy and daddy back up my loan since i spent all my money from my previous career paying off college debts? is that allowed??

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Flinty,

You're in error mate, so let me clarify. I'm a PPL, 130 hours, and finished my ATPL theory last month. One of the posts you referenced above was a reply I made to a query in the Pro Pilot Training/Studies forum.

My replies to the medical diversion thread in the Rumours and News forum about an hour ago were not deleted by me, and now I can't view that forum either, so I've PMed a mod about that, but I assure you it was not my own doing, I thought they were sensible suggestions!

As for last night, I made a post or two in here and yes, I did delete those because I knew it would spark off an argument which has been had over and over in this thread from reading it through. I like to give sensible input.

I don't know to whom I'm being compared, but please get your facts right, I'm not having a go, but I am who I am and it's no secret to a few on here!

[blackred1443]

as i have said a few times now already referring to people sponsored by mummy and daddy as parasitic is wrong.but judging by the way ye have all responded to the beaks comments i think ye have proven to be ridiculous.

its like watching a load of children throwing toys out of their prams,if you dont like what he said then debate like adults

dont degrade someone who differs to your opinion.

listening to people degrading those employed in a fast food restaurant as though that makes someone a lower form of life.

this is why he made the comments he did because the implication is that daddy pays for your rating and licence and then you lose all perspective of how priviledged you are.so rather that expressing your gratitude for the fortunate position you find yourselves in, like spolit kids you sneer at those less fortunate.or those that choose to question the values you have been instilled with.

all ye had to do was say yes daddy did pay for my rating and im incredibly lucky and grateful, instead one individual reckons he has paid back 35k in 5 months and another start being patronising towards those on minimum wage.what a way to respond.ye have just proven everything he was getting at, someone else added something about only comment on things you have direct involvement with!!?:rolleyes:

well done:ok:

[McNulty]

this is why he made the comments he did because the implication is that daddy pays for your rating and licence and then you lose all perspective of how priviledged you are.so rather that expressing your gratitude for the fortunate position you find yourselves in, like spolit kids you sneer at those less fortunate.or those that choose to question the values you have been instilled with.


You cannot be serious? TheBeak comes on here and calls people parasites? I'm supposed to reply by pouring my heart out to him about how fortunate and privileged i am?

For the record now that you have brought it up, i do feel extremely grateful and fortunate to be in my position. Believe me life hasnt always been so kind, i know how good i have it now. I also have people very close to me who have lost their jobs recently - and there is no shame in that as there is a massive recession on over here. There is no shame at all in working in low paid jobs, or being on the dole now at this time.

The only person coming on here with the intention of sneering at people is the beak.

[Torque Tonight]

Yes, once again another potentially constructive thread descends into a dick-fight thanks to our resident saboteur derailing it with personal attacks at post 3. Of course those on the receiving end are going to reply, some more diplomatically than others, some more assertively. As I said before, Beak is entitled to his viewpoint, but it is the privilege of each reader to decide how much value and credibility to attach to it. Zero would be my suggested figure.

Beak's monotonous and repetitive attacks are based largely on misinformation, assumptions and figures that he has plucked out of his @r$£. He also seriously underestimates those that do make it to the right hand seat in Ryanair. Even the calmest, most restrained Bhuddist monk would probably give him a thump in the nose if he had the balls to speak to people face-to-face in the manner that he writes here.

Take his ramblings with the pinch of salt they deserve. As for his addiction to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia, online dictionaries and quotations; here's a little something you might enjoy:

"Over and over and over and over. / Like a monkey with a miniature cymbal"

gs9NgGZkErU

Cheers, TT
(former high street chain coffee boy, paid my own way, not afraid of an honest days work, but still a parasite!)

[BigNumber]

TT,

Now that 2245 'edit' was very interesting!!

Why did you just remove your reference to a previous military flying career?

I had assumed that you had completed a SSC, then did your 'coffee bit' prior to landing a commercial gig.

Care to elucidate?

BN

[Torque Tonight]

Fair enough. I don't really want to bang on about it too much. I know how boring 'when I was in the RAF...' stories can get and since I've already mentioned it in this thread I decided to chop that bit out.

The fact is I served as a commissioned officer and frontline pilot for several years, saving money to my best ability. I left, did my civil licences, modular, with the money I had saved only to find the employment market looking pretty desolate. I spent the best part of a year seeking flying employment, with virtually no leads coming up, despite having a fairly respectable aviation CV. In that time I worked in Starbucks. I am not afraid of an honest day's work whether that be leading a formation at low level through Iraq or making cappucinos for £5.80/hr. I do not consider myself too good for any job. It wasn't my dream long term career but it kept my head above water for a while and gave me the freedom to give 7 day's notice and take any opportunity that came up.

Ryanair offered me a position and I gratefully accepted as it was by far the best option I had. On joining the company I have not found a single person who regrets joining up, and it therefore irritates me somewhat to be on the receiving end of such abuse, especially when so much of it is factually incorrect. Beak's facts, figures and generalizations are so wildly inaccurate that occasionally I feel obliged to put up a counter argument.

So there you go. That's me. Any questions?

Edit:

And to pre-empt another regular point that comes up: Am I just trying to buy my way into a jet job when I should work my way up as in the good old days? Well to answer that, my experience is in a multi-crew aircraft with two gas turbine engines. Despite that I applied for everything from light aircraft ferry flying, bush flying, instructing, GA, bizjets, every airline on the planet etc. That fact is there's even a waiting list to be an unpaid glider tug pilot these days. Ryanair is a damn good opportunity in such a market.

Incidentally, I make a mean coffee. Seriously. One of my most satisfying skills.:ok:

[BigNumber]

Irishpilot,

I think you will find that 'Beak' affords us the courtesy of proof reading his posts!

BN

[Sciolistes]

superdashes comment proves no such thing as free type rating
Pretty much my thoughts too, and something that isn't really fully acknowledged by the criticism of SSTR schemes.

In someways the risk/reward ratio is possibly acceptable. In other cases it certainly does not seem to be so. Do you pay upfront and risk loosing the money for the benefit of a high salary later or do you take a reduced salary? My most preferred option would always be the latter - a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush! One also has to consider how a low cost airline pays so well for some, maybe because some others earn a pittance?

For me the risk was minimal, I didn't pay for my TR upfront, but the cost will be recovered by the company over the next couple of years. As it always was for fully sponsored BA cadets, etc. Few organisations are going to be willing to reduce their competitveness by passing training costs onto either their employees and/or customers.

[v6g]

You must remember the tax consequences too. A SSTR is paid by after-tax money. A company sponsored TR is paid by pre-tax money. That's an enormous difference.

[TheBeak]

Exactly v6g.

If anyone ever needed proof that Ryanair put no weight upon the interview stage of their selection, just have a read of this thread.

The calibre of some of you people is appaling, no wonder Ts and Cs are dropping like a stone. I wouldn't give you a permanant contract either.

Well spotted by BN there also, there was no need for TT to remove the RAF portion of his career. And I don't feel your justification, justifies. Clearly another Ryanair walt.

I know how boring 'when I was in the RAF...' stories can get

It's a shame you aren't aware of how boring the 'I'm not afraid of a hard days work stories are......'

Classic sign of arrogance.:yuk:

I stand by what I have said with regards to this airline, its practices and the majority of its PPRUNE posting employees.

[Torque Tonight]

Crikey Beak, the real world must be a very confusing and scary place for you. There can't actually be any staff working for Ryanair at all, seeing as you accuse every single person of being a 'Walt'.

I have laid my cards on the table for you, to back up my statements, and have given you my career history, including the inbetween job that many people would probably take the p--s out of. You, on the other hand, tell us nothing solid about yourself and yet accuse me of lying about both the pilot jobs I have had.

What more do I have to do? Maybe I need to scan my airside pass and my old F1250 (do you know what that is Beak) before we can have a sensible discussion. Well, I'm not going to do that. I've done enough already to bust my anonymity to those actually IN the industry who know me and the bottom line is that I couldn't give a monkey's what you choose to believe. I'm sure most people can read my posts and your posts and draw their own conclusions.

I have never been an arrogant or aggressive person but, by God, you seem to do your best to drive people to it. Your denial of any facts that don't suit your mental model and your general manner are going make for job interview hilarity - you really are putting a ball and chain around your own ankle.

[hollingworthp]

I did my first initial type rating in March.

I didn't have to pay for it and I joined on the standard FO salary for my company. So it's not fair to say that there is no such thing as a free rating. It is fair though to say they are very rare - even more so now :suspect:

I would hope that most people considering FR are going in with their eyes open with regards to the contract. I am given to understand that the quality of training is very high and clearly the fleet is modern.

As a new FO, I think FR is a reasonable starting point in terms of the experience you will build and for unfreezing your ATPL.

I couldn't have stretched to the SSTR myself and I don't want to get drawn on the detrimental affect these have on future T&C's.

I can certainly understand both sides of the argument with those who take loans / family assistance for a considered risk/reward view towards FR (being pretty much the only gig in town) and what must undeniably be a huge sense of pride and achievement to those who work & save towards their licence and that ultimate prize of the first job without leaning on anyone else.

My own situation leans strongly towards the latter and that helps me sleep at night knowing that even if I were made redundant tomorrow, I have a previous career I can fall straight back into and nobody else's assets are at risk.

The nature of this site is to debate, and as such there are at least 2 sides to each story / thread. The Beak offers a viewpoint in which I see a good deal of value - but then it is pretty easy for me to say so as I am in the extremely fortunate position of being employed. But also guys like TT highlight that not everyone going to Ryanair is a fresh-faced 19yo leaning fully on the rose-tinted specs of their parents.

Before people post on here (and mostly it is behind anonymous monikers) take a moment to consider whether you would say the same thing to someone over a beer in a bar downroute. :ok:

Anyways, I am on hotel standby so need to find something else to do with my time. To the gym methinks.:E

[Torque Tonight]

A sensible, balanced post. Thank you, that's all we want.

I said I wouldn't but then I couldn't resist. Here's a little something just for you Beak.

You claim to have been an RAF pilot before - probably more like RAF regiment.
Clearly another Ryanair walt.

At least you believe my coffee making exploits. (Do you?)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2594/4003762263_7a2b41c1b7.jpg

Just a few things I happened to have hanging in the wardrobe. I suppose you'll accuse me of having run down to a very well stocked fancy dress shop within the last half hour! I could have done the same with ID cards, but I really don't want you turning up outside my house in the middle of the night.

Don't feel you have to apologize to me again. I've become accustomed to your debating style.:ok:

[jimmyjetplane]

Can anyone lend the beak some floats please?!!!!:O

[jimmyjetplane]

Hey Torque....I've seen all those uniforms on e-bay.Ya big fibber:D.

Best wishes,

Jimmyjetplane.

[Airbusfreak]

I am not unemployed however I am not an employed pilot at the moment. I am in some pilot holdpools and I am waiting longingly to be picked up. I do believe that not taking the easy, expensive and short term option is the correct option for me and anyone else. If I wasn't in the holdpools I would feel the same.

beak you are a dreamer man, a complete and utter dreamer

[P-T]

I have returned onto PPRUNE for the first time in months, to be confronted by sheer rage and disbelief with how someone like TheBeak can exist in our community. I understand that there are some bitter and twisted pilots out there and probably rightly so, having probably been used and abused by many different airlines and caught in the wrong situation more than once.

However, I only read the first page of this thread as quite frankly I was appalled with your arrogance TheBeak. I'm not sure who you are or what you do. What I do know is that you've come through OAA on the modular course in recent years. Now is this what the crux of the problem is. Are you jealous about those younger than you who could afford the integrated course? Did your mummy and daddy not have enough money for you to do the course when you were still young and impressionable and dare I say it, polite? (BTW, those who know me know I'm not saying that the Modular route is a lesser route, just a different way. If I wasn't sponsored, then I would have been on the Modular route myself.)

Personally, if I could have afforded it when I was 18, then I know for a fact my life would be in a far better position at this age than it is now. I think anyone that can do the integrated course and then the RYR TR at the age of 18-21 is a better man than me.

As far as parasite is concerned. You mention issues such as borrowing off mummy and daddy or using a spouse’s agreement for securing the loan to the house etc. Is this again a sign of bitterness that your spouse wouldn't let you do this; if indeed a human being could bear to buy a house and share it with you.

There are a lot of people on this forum who know me and I'm not going to justify who I am. But I will say that if I wasn't in the fortunate situation that I am, I would regrettably not be able to afford the RYR TR. For all those who are; of whom I know many, good luck and I'm sure it'll be more than worth it when you buggers have 4 stripes and I'll be just getting my SFO pay rise. Who's to say that these "parasites" are not going to repay the favour and indeed the money to their loved ones (do I need to explain love? If so TheBeak, it's that warm fuzzy feeling I imagine you have when you look in the mirror every morning and tell yourself "I'm the man" just before your mother brings you your tea and toast in the morning)

Lastly, TheBeak, you've done nothing but make me think you are immature and probably not the sharpest tool in the shed. I particularly loved the comment when you stated that you haven't personally offended anyone. YOU do not decide if you've offended anyone, it's the people you are speaking to that decide if they are offended. I can clearly see that you have offended most people that have read and indeed replied to this.

Cpt. Rosco, I look forward with glee to any comments you have on this issue. All I can say to TheBeak is quite honestly I hope I never have to work with you as I think your attitude to others stinks.

And if you correct my grammar or diction. I'm a :mad: pilot and I don't care. I left defence writing behind quite a few years ago and good riddance. x

[smiler68]

Couldn't have put it any better myself P-T. We wait with baited breath for Beak's response, although I'm sure he'l find someway of manipulating what you have said and give us the same old spiel we keep hearing from him. Just a little clue the Beak may not be the sharpest tool in the box....

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 2nd April 2009, 17:59
TheBeak (http://www.pprune.org/members/170764-thebeak)
"Somewhere that has the Twinstar, they are the planes to do your IR on. Absolute beauties......the FADEC and the G1000 make things ALOT easier and free up capacity."

Particular emphasis on the last three words....Beak needs all the spare capacity he can get.

[superdash]

The Beak has gone quiet. (good)

Maybe the thread can go back on topic?

Options for funding a RYR TR are:

Career loan (25k max?)
Parents
Secured Loan
Lottery win

Can't really think of any others.

Maybe there is no such thing as a free type rating, but I suppose I did get paid from day 1 and didn't have to use any of my parent’s equity or cash.

What's the salary at RYR? I've seen all kinds of figures ranging from 35-60k.

Any RYR boys or girls care to spell it out?

Superdash

[ryanairpilot42]

The Beak

Yes I am clearly not a Ryanair pilot, that’s why my first post on here was looking for digs in our Madrid base! Lol

You know what, you stick to making up perfect grammar and quoted facts on Ryanair and why you won’t fly for them (or anybody right now) because you clearly have the time on your hands and ill stick to flying a 737 for good money and loving going to work every day.

Enjoy your little rants and ill enjoy having a flying job I love.

[captain_rossco]

Beak


Who's the parasite?


These rants smack of New Labour, which is probably for the best given that they've just upped your Job Seekers Allowance.

Any parent that loans/gives their son/daughter money, surely does so with careful thought. It still seems more than intrusive to me, that any person can say this is right or wrong.

I'm way too old to fall into your Mummy's little darling box, but feel that the notion that you can pigeon hole these young wannabes as mere 'spoilt brats' is nothing more than the ravings of a Union crazed pit worker.

What the :mad: do you want them to do, pay back their school fees too?

Regards
CR

[WallyWumpus]

Mr Hollingworth,

This is not meant as an attack on you personally, but........

..... is it not a little disingenuous to make a statement about free type ratings and being on a standard FOs money, when my guess would be that you are on 60% pay for 4 years along with so many others at NJs?

Wally.

[P-T]

Just to add fuel to the fire. There is such a thing as a free type rating, I've been fortunate enough to have mine paid for by the company.

[Amen_Brother]

Beak, i'm certain that you're never wrong about anything. There's nothing anyone can say to help you because you're so convinced that your point of view out-ranks all others. Your generalisations, half-baked facts and arrogance are breathtaking.

Love or hate ryanair (or easy, BA et al), most people can see both sides of the argument, at least to some degree. You're a bit odd actually, you can’t let it go, even if you have to argue that black is white.

I've read posts by you in another thread on FR. Your analysis and arguments were so infantile its not worth debating with you.

[hollingworthp]

Mr Hollingworth,

This is not meant as an attack on you personally, but........


No offense taken :ok:

Although to be fair - that was one of 5 'voluntary' options which people considered based on their own unique set of personal circumstances and doesn't have a direct bearing on the type rating.

[TheBeak]

Can't let it go? You're arguing with yourselves. I have said my piece and the more sensible will take note. I am not having an argument with people I don't know and who make up assumed insults to curry favour and 'make friends'. You haven't been able to fight the corner of Ryanair and your methods of financing your opportunity so you have defended yourselves, even TT. It's the only battle he could win. But you'll never win the war.;)


The 'you work in McDonalds' , 'just because you couldn't afford' and 'you're bitter' comments don't address the debate, are a million miles from the truth and show your lack of understanding to discuss the situation. What your parents did for you as a 7 - 18 year old whilst at school and what your parents do for you there after as a 22, 25, 32 year old are very different stories. If you are still taking the handouts in the later stages the you are the New Labour person. Grow up and take some responsibility for yourself.


Anyway I must dash, I have to go change the oil on the deep fat fryers......:uhoh:

[WallyWumpus]

Phil,

It does have a bearing on type ratings (if I understand you).

I don't understand how airlines can afford to provide people with a free type rating. The economics of it do not make sense to me. I could understand, I think, that there remains an argument for airlines trying to train experienced pilots for free, as the training risks are lower than for the likes of newbies such as you or I, and especially as we are both older and less easy to train than our 18-25yr old colleagues. The idea of being given a free training course seems odd to me, and there are few airlines that do it. RYR make you pay upfront, BA and many others make you pay by way of reduced salary, and those that still do genuinely give it away for nothing will surely stop soon?

Open question to all members - what is the argument for free type ratings, I have had a trawl through a lot of threads on RYR and many others, and have not seen a succinct argument put as to why the airlines, and not us, should pay.

Wally.

[hollingworthp]

Wally, Life is short, lets agree to disagree and move on :ok:

[Mikehotel152]

I think it's very sad and frustrating that the Moderator has not posted a warning on this thread that people should stick to the topic or face being barred from the Forum. The topic in this case is not a full-blown argument about the sense or madness of agreeing to work for Ryanair. But, sadly, it seems every thread that is started by someone genuinely seeking information about Ryanair is ruined. Please can the Moderators ensure that this is no longer allowed; it isn't in other parts of the Forum and shouldn't be tolerated here simply because this it the Wannabes section!

Back on topic:

I believe you can get a statement of 'expected' earnings and a copy of your contract from Brookfield

Yes, you do get an unsigned and undated letter 'To Whom it may concern' confirming that you have signed a contract with Brookfield to join the pool of pilots supplied to Ryanair. There is no mention of projected earning. I would say it's completely worthless in terms of providing evidence of employment for the purposes of borrowing money.

Personally, together with my spouse, I have borrowed the money from a bank. How and why I did that are my business, but I rest assured knowing that I would be able to service the debt even if things were to go tits-up with Ryanair. I sympathise with people who are not in my fortunate position and would take a different view of borrowing money in order to join Ryanair if I were younger, had fewer responsibilities, or did not have another career to fall back on.

Each to his or her own. ;)

[mikehammer]

Personally, together with my spouse, I have borrowed the money from a bank. How and why I did that are my business, but I rest assured knowing that I would be able to service the debt even if things were to go tits-up with Ryanair. I sympathise with people who are not in my fortunate position and would take a different view of borrowing money in order to join Ryanair if I were younger, had fewer responsibilities, or did not have another career to fall back on.


Hear hear! The voice of reason in a sea of squabbling. Good luck to you Mike Hotel. I for one would be pleased to hear of your experiences, and I am sure many would be interested in recruitment tips from you.

[Mikehotel152]

:ooh:......er, thanks...I aim to be constructive and helpful...:)

[BigNumber]

I am somewhat bemused. Why the hostility towards our friend Beak?

Surely this is a thread seeking to openly and frankly discuss ALL available options to fund a FR Type Rating. Beak has merely suggested that the Bank of M n D is the favorite 'Piggy Bank' to be raided. I reckon he is probably right!

I generally disagree with Beaks conclusions but value his well crafted posts. I can see sound reason in all his arguments and, taken individually, his points are wholly valid.

These threads are greatly enhanced by his participation and long may it be the case. I am not interested in ill informed, poorly articulated, one sided, debates.

Yes; I would openly encourage all FATPL's to join FR if the chance prevails but I recognise my position still requires scrutiny. More when we are discussing huge sums of money and absolutely no guarantees. I have never understood why FR have been unable to provide a 'fix' of days to BRK employees. This 'Fix' would remove much of the financial ambiguity and possibly make a bank loan easier to secure.

PS. Had to come up and 'Prattle'; my wife's watching that dreadful chap Gok Wan; Painful tv!:{

BN

[TheBeak]

BN as always, thank you.

Though I may not give you the answer as to how to 'get the money' what I have tried to do is tell you how NOT to get the money - in my opinion. Sure if your parents are very wealthy or they wish to give you your inheritance early then it is their choice how they spend their money - and how nice that they would choose to spend it on your future. I do however strongly disagree, disapprove and deplore people who secure £145Ks (taking into account the term) worth of debt against their parents £500K home. My parents too offered many times to secure the debt. They said it with a loving but worried look on their faces and sound to their voices. They seemed resigned to it. Their wasn't a chance I'd have done it to them though - and that was when aviation was at it's peak. I just don't understand it. My hope is that my words may have a positive effect on just one person and be the straw that makes them say no to the altruistic but dangerous offer from their parents. It isn't their choice, I don't know a parent that wouldn't make the offer. It is your choice to say no. Why can't you work for a year, save £15K and cut £25K off the risk in the loan? Boll:mad:ks to the fact you maybe earning 200000 Euros a year or however much you start on at Ryanair that enables you to pay back the TR loan in 5 months. Nothing worth it is ever easy and taking the loan on your parents home is a piece of piss......for you.


I have just seen your post too DB, thanks also pal.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think it's very sad and frustrating that the Moderator has not posted a warning on this thread that people should stick to the topic or face being barred from the Forum. The topic in this case is not a full-blown argument about the sense or madness of agreeing to work for Ryanair. But, sadly, it seems every thread that is started by someone genuinely seeking information about Ryanair is ruined. Please can the Moderators ensure that this is no longer allowed; it isn't in other parts of the Forum and shouldn't be tolerated here simply because this it the Wannabes section!



Well prepare to be further saddened and frustrated I'm afraid. I'm barring nobody for saying that the RYR self sponsored type rating, followed by joining Brookfield after your work experience, is a rubbish deal which is the lead husky in the sleigh ride to **** creek which our profession is currently engaged upon.

The tax scam is coming to light. The new aircraft arrivals are unstoppable. The Brookfield contract is punitive. You're paying a lot of money to put yourself between a rock and Michael O Leary...


WWW

[Mikehotel152]

Seeing as you seem unable to use the scroll function of your browser, this is the original post:


Do ryanair have a deal or partnership with any banks or loan providers?

The way Oxford do/did with the HSBC.... You basically take your letter of acceptance from Oxford to the bank, and they pretty much give you £65,000 no questions asked (well minimum)

Do ryanair do anything like that.... or do you really need to find the £30,000 alone!

I would imagine the majority of people applying for ryanair are unemployed pilots, already in debt, and little chance of a bank actually saying "yes" to a £30,000 loan


This is not a thread on the rights and wrong of securing £145K of funding for training. It is not a thread debating Ryanair. This is merely a thread about the practicalities of funding a Ryanair Type Rating costing £30K.

WWW: PPrune is a great source of information and by encouraging the degeneration of this particular thread into a slanging match you're preventing this from happening and thereby undermining the value of the website. There are plenty of other threads where TheBeak and plenty of others have had their opportunity to debate the pros and cons of joining Ryanair.

[P-T]

WWW, I think you've missed the point from the post asking certain threads to be removed. TheBeak has been offensive and quite rude to more than one member of the forum.

I very rarely read the forum any more, mainly because of people like TheBeak. I can't see why people need to slate the industry and the people in it so much. After all, we all did our ATPL for a reason, because we either love the flying or the lifestyle. To have people so bitter and twisted on here all the time is quite frankly annoying and unnecessary. I know a few other pilots who have left the forum as the views on here are more than often extreme and unhelpful.

And yes, I did insult TheBeak. He sparked such an emotion from reading his posts and insults towards Torque Tonight just to mention one. We all know there a fakes on here, but TT isn’t one of them, so no need for the vindictive, belittling and insulting comments.

Also having just worked out who TheBeak is, he quite frankly isn’t worth bothering with and no wonder he is unemployed.
As far as Ryan Air is concerned. If I had the money and I was unemployed I'd go the same route. It is a good way to get the hours and it pays well if you know how to play the system. I'd much rather be working for Ryan Air than working 9-5 or in a fast food restaurant, or even as cabin crew for that matter (nothing wrong with cabin crew, but I didn’t pay best part of £60k to work in the back and take the crap that they have to on a daily basis.)

One question for the TheBeak, you have a 737 Type rating? Do you have any Line training hours with that? If not, then that was a wasted type rating. It's no use to any airline if you haven't done your LRC and ALC.

And for the token gesture towards the thread topic, sorry I don’t know how to approach the banks, but I'm sure a thoroughly researched business plan wouldn't be a bad starting point.

Everyone knows what they are getting themselves into when they go to Ryan Air, so you pay your money you take your choice. However I know a few people that have made a very good career out of it and are very happy with the way they work. People could do a lot worse.

[Duck Rogers]

Just passing (not much happening in Bizjets, we're generally better behaved over there ;)) and spotted this thread.


Nice to see you are amused by The Beak blatantly slating wannabees and telling current Ryanair pilots that they are not "real pilots"....
Where does BN say he's amused by this? I can't find it. Post number?


Everyone knows what they are getting themselves into when they go to Ryan Air, so you pay your money you take your choice.
But surely 'they' know because people tell them in places like this? Surely you're not advocating pro-Ryanair posts only be allowed? Pro-anything come to that. Within the bounds of reason I'm happy that the (we) moderators let these threads run the way they do.

I've been around PPRuNe a while and I'm constantly surprised by people who complain about censorship. "Free speech!" they cry. Yet when they get it we're castigated. We can't win.

[P-T]

Duck Rogers.

If you read the comment I made, it was made about abusive and personal comments about individuals, not about RYR.

So no, I don't want you to sensor anti RYR and allow only pro RYR, I'm just sick of the sick bitter and twisted people on here.

And in response to your comment about people find out about RYR on this forum. I disagree, I haven't read this forum for quite a few months and still hear the stories good and bad from friends and old course mates and other forums such as OAA.

I'm not sure what's happened to PPRUNE, but it certainly has gone down hill in the last 3 years. Diss-information seems to be the norm and slagging off any wannabe is a common scene.

I'm not sure if its a sign of the times, but PPRUNE is certainly worse off because of the "haters". Of course we need both sides of the story, but surely to tell the story you must have first experienced the event and not heard about it from your mates uncle who's boss told him a tale.

[BigNumber]

Dick,

I am genuinely saddened by my 'thumbs down' head-line. :=

I cannot see that 'Beak' has done anything but elucidate within the thread subject. He has set out an erodite, concise and reasoned arguement.

I disagree with 'Beak', but debate needs to be open, honest and lively to hold my interest. Why would anyone want to 'dilute' these important discussions? I certainly have not been offended, even though Beaks expressed views are not well aligned with my own.

I would understand ( read ), that you might have done some FR funding yourself for a child? I WOULD DO EXACTLY THE SAME.

Beak already answered the question = Mum and Dad!

My view = Until a 'Fix' of minimum days, (analogous with a private owner Biz Jet), is contracted this is likely to remain the preferred option.

BN

[BigNumber]

Good evening Duck,

Yes, we are better behaved in our Biz Jet world.

Perhaps 'Beak' would be sensible to review his future career path?

BN

[eagerbeaver1]

Here is some advice;

Do what you think you have to, no-one is going to help you. Life is short.
If you can get mum and dad to help (pay) in any way then do so, you will only have a few chances to fly professionally and you must take your seldom opportunities where-ever they may be.

Don't linger on the words of the older generation with regards to declining conditions/punitive contracts etc because many are not in the position you are (myself included).

Get on with you life and do not dwell on the negative side of things, it will only drag you down.

Work hard and make you own luck.

For the record, my parents paid for my FATPL and I would do the same.

TheBeak, come on matey stop being unkind, it does no good what-so-ever, we all know the good and bad side to this particular subject. You come across as a whiney little bitch.

[Duck Rogers]

If you read the comment I made, it was made about abusive and personal comments about individuals, not about RYR.
One of the points you made was about that. I read your post, decided the night wasn't long enough to take up every issue and chose one. I say again that people know because they read it here. Ok, some people. A lot of people. Granted PPRuNe isn't the only source in the aviation world but it's still a major one. Seen the numbers for this place?

....surely to tell the story you must have first experienced the event.... The world would be a dull place if first hand knowledge were a pre-requisite for many things. If that became law and the Walts and theorists were driven out PPRuNe would become a ghost town overnight. Didn't you say that Ryanair are well known for their practices? That you and your friends know of them through other means? Well so do The Beak and others yet seemingly you want him and his ilk to be prevented from passing on what they've heard.

Censorship? Aye, but which way round?



<wanders back toward the leather upholstered, silk carpeted bizjet forum>

[smiler68]

This discussion seems to have degenerated into something so utterly ridiculous it could almost send somesome insane. At first it starts with someone wanting to productively find out about the funding for a Ryanair TR (valid question), which was spolit by someone who we all know probably resembles not far off a social hand grenade, who has now all of a sudden become flavour of the week with a couple of moderators who are beginning a debate that Ryanair's reputaion is NOT in fact based on first hand experiences but instead by chinese whispers!! This thread's sending more than a few of you away with a one way ticket to the loony hospital, give it up. And to quote P-T...
"I'm not sure what's happened to PPRUNE, but it certainly has gone down hill in the last 3 years".
Got that right :ok:

[TheBeak]

P-T, you again, do not know who I am , so don't say things like that to add weight to your argument - we had this with Reluctant737 or whatever his/her name was. And no I absolutely did not buy a 737 TR and have no hours on it. I did not buy a 737 TR full stop, I can assure you. Can you not work that out?

If you don't like PPRUNE then don't add to it. It takes two to add to this debate - at least my posts have been on track and not about slating an individual that you don't know much about. You lot are very much responsible for the divergence of this thread.

I'd take bizjets in a heartbeat.

[P-T]

No worries, points taken I am defeated. I'm obvioulsy not intelligent for TheBeak and I am not worthy of even knowing you it seems.

No worries, I'll leave you to it. For the record, I totally agree with Eager Beaver.

On that note I'm of to SSH for the weekend on the wonderful Boeing 757.

X

[BigNumber]

Dick,

I believe that we are possibly 'lost' in translation.

I would understand that 'Beak' is trying to clarify that he did not purchase a 737 TR with a Line Hours Package.

Further, he is being clear that he did not purchase a 737 TR FULL STOP.

I would understand that, he was selected for a paid / bonded 737 TR with an airline, made it on line, and then sadly was laid off. Very frustrating!

I really cannot understand this animosity to 'Beak'. Unlike the many, his credability is not in question. It would appear that the ubiquitous truth about 'the bank of Mum n Dad' gets some 'noses out of joint'. I just can't understand why?

Had the situation been different, I would have been the first to cash 'Dads' cheque! ( Sadly in my case, it would have bounced! )

BN

[Mikehotel152]

Let’s get this straight. I am most certainly not against free speech and I’m perfectly open to debates on Ryanair. I have agreed that TheBeak’s views on Ryanair and, for example, WWW’s opinions about the state of the economy are worth listening to even though they don’t match my own opinions or experiences. Furthermore, even though some people have an abrasive, unkind or deliberately unhelpful attitude I wouldn’t disregard their right to be heard.

This is not about free speech; It’s all about time and place! On a thread started by a Wannabe asking about the virtues of joining Ryanair, let slip the dogs of war and let the debate rage because someone contemplating joining a controversial company ought to hear both sides of the argument, but where someone asks a clear cut, closed loop question, why do we have to see the whole thread become a 5 page argument between the Ryanair haters and those who have a different point of view?

I cling to my view that the Moderators are not doing their job in this instance. There’s nothing ‘moderate’ about their behaviour. Contrast the moderator’s action on this thread with the thread on Integrated v Modular which recently closed by Halfwayback.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There's nothing moderate about me changing paragraphs of yours pink but then this is a benign dictatorship so best just get over it.


WWW

[Mikehotel152]

To be fair, pink is my favourite colour right now. :ok:

[hollingworthp]

I prefer this :}

[mikehammer]

I agree again with Mike Hotel.

WWW, having accepted that this is a benign (although this thread is somewhat viral) dictatorship, I guess that the least moderators are expected to do is to keep the focus of the original thread topic. For example, in the thread about the BA 777 crash at Heathrow, posters without technical knowledge and little therefore to add, had their posts removed, and quite right too; it kept the required focus to keep the thread relevant. It also made for highly interesting reading. Dictator you may be, open to criticism you are not, or at least that is how it is beginning to look here.

In this thread nobody is suggesting that Ryanair opinion be censored, merely that it be moved elsewhere more relevant to the original poster's topic. That is not here, because otherwise all Ryanair threads will simply dissolve into the same, off-topic slanging. I for one, and I suspect a good many otheres are bored with this.

My colour preference is red.

Anyone got any more answers to the original question?

[irishpilot1990]

to they guys saying they got a free type rating....
you are in a very extreme minority in this climate.
I would be surprised if you got it recently, and amazed if you are on same wages as those who did not get a free one!!
If you are on big money and free type rating then you are extremely lucky as name to me one place thats offering that package?!!?:ok:

And to beak i think the fact 99% of posters here think you views are wrong(and so strong) says alot, and implies your hiding something, possible fact your type rated on 737 and cant get into RYN.

[TheBeak]

Your credibility wanes as the days go by.

BN understood correctly though I accept my post may have been misleading - it was early.

For example, in the thread about the BA 777 crash at Heathrow, posters without technical knowledge and little therefore to add, had their posts removed,

Possibly because the thread could have been used as a source of info by the press and PPRUNE could have been quoted as a source, as it has been in the past. To that end I'd imagine the moderators have a job to filter the 'opinions' and try and keep the discussion strictly objective so as to maintain the credibility of the site.

There is a difference with this thread though. Someone hasn't asked a strict, closed question. They have asked a number of questions, have appeared quite leading and open and so have attracted a number of opinions. There is no definate answer to this one, nor are there to the majority of the questions asked on this site. A discussion, which we started having on the topic, will give a mix of views which have been hopefully justified and thought out. It will give a balance and range to the asker. You can't get a more definate answer to such a broad question.

I maintain my views and will continue to justify them to anyone who touches on a topic I feel I can add dimension to.

The way the question concluded to me, with:


or do you really need to find the £30,000 alone!

I would imagine the majority of people applying for ryanair are unemployed pilots, already in debt, and little chance of a bank actually saying "yes" to a £30,000 loan

came across as the poster was uncomfortably resigned to the argument I have put across. I hope I have offered comfort to them that they are no less a person by not being able to afford the loan and that if it even remotely crossed their mind to secure the debt on their parents home, that it shouldn't be an option unless they are rich or expecting an early inheritance, for the right reasons and hopefully not the wrong ones.

And to beak i think the fact 99% of posters here think you views are wrong(and so strong) says alot, and implies your hiding something, possible fact your type rated on 737 and cant get into RYN.


Well it isn't a fact, it is a statistic that you have plucked out of thin air. And besides, 99% of all statistics are made up. And I haven't hidden anything. Would I fly for Ryanair if they would take a low experience 737 pilot without extorting me out of 33K for something I already have? Yes.

[Flintstone]

to they guys saying they got a free type rating....
you are in a very extreme minority in this climate.
I would be surprised if you got it recently,

Be amazed then, I did.

.... and amazed if you are on same wages as those who did not get a free one!!

Be amazed some more then, although it's impossible to make such a comparison because, er, they got theirs free too. I suppose we could look toward pilots who joined the company with type ratings but they get paid the same also.


If you are on big money and free type rating then you are extremely lucky

Lucky? Well if you call standing by my principles and turning down jobs that wanted me to buy my way in then I suppose I am. Don't think the dictionary would define that as 'luck' though.

....name to me one place thats offering that package?!!?

Ummmmm, no. I won't. Given the propensity for a large number of newly qualified pilots to back door their colleagues I'm extremely picky about who I recommend for interview. All of those I have recommended though know there's no such word as 'alot' ;)

[jimmyjetplane]

ORDER ORDER!!!! CAN WE HAVE SOME ORDER!!

Anyone care to go back to the original topic here?

Can anyone give some advice or is willing to share from there own personal experience,from where did they actually manage to secure the funding please?

I believe there may be many interested candidates who are being excluded from applying, simply because they can't find a lender/financial institution that are willing to support this.

(This site is turning into some sort of an 'chat room' for immature,bitter and twisted folk and quite frankly it's not a pleasant place to visit at the moment)!

Let's go back to informed usefull and mature communication.

Anyone agree?

Thank you.:ok:

Jimmyjetplane.

[Mikehotel152]

Er, Flintstone, as you know, we're talking about Ryanair and the Airline industry, not Bizjets, which are a different kettle of fish.

The Airlines who do pay for their new recruits' type ratings are simply not recruiting at the moment and are unlikely to recommence in the next few years.

[Flintstone]

Nothing specific in irishpilot's post, he/she merely espoused the (flawed) opinion that nobody got a free rating.

Don't mind me though. Same income as an airline captain, fly about 10-12 days a month, six weeks (paid) holiday, per diems, get fed and watered, nice hotels, training and uniform paid, work with nice people, go to nice places, no 'self-employed' nonsense through dodgy accountants. Missed out didn't I? Damn, I feel so stupid :rolleyes:

Why is everyone so fixated on Ryanair and the airlines? Fine if you want to do the same old thing day in, day out and in the case of at least RYR be treated as a consumable but there really is better out there. I suppose you just need to wit and imagination to see it.

[smiler68]

Jimmy Jet Plane, If you'd really like to know, an interest free loan from a friend. Does that answer your question?

[hollingworthp]

to they guys saying they got a free type rating....
you are in a very extreme minority in this climate.
I would be surprised if you got it recently, and amazed if you are on same wages as those who did not get a free one!!
If you are on big money and free type rating then you are extremely lucky as name to me one place thats offering that package?!!?

I heard of a guy in our company who is starting his 5th (totally free with no salary reduction) type rating in as many years.

[redsnail]

I'm in a pretty similar boat to Flintstone. :)

[Mikehotel152]

Why is everyone so fixated on Ryanair and the airlines? Fine if you want to do the same old thing day in, day out and in the case of at least RYR be treated as a consumable but there really is better out there. I suppose you just need to wit and imagination to see it.

and

I'm in a pretty similar boat to Flintstone. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Maybe it's because Bizjet operators very rarely employ low-hour pilots, except through nepotism or specific expensive intergrated ab-initio training courses which have been stopped due to the recession. Furthermore, seeing as companies like Netjets require 1500 hours minimum, including Jet or Turbo-prop time, and even their recuitment is frozen, it is not an option for the people reading this thread.

Some wit, some imagination...In reality it's the latter you'll need a lot of if you want to get into Bizjets with 250 hours. :(

What I think Flintstone and Redsnail are pointing out is that there are (longer-term) options for careers in Aviation other than with Ryanair and the Airlines. Fair point. Good point even. Unfortunately here is not the place to be boasting about how great your lives are when clearly you are not in the same stage of your careers as the people asking about funding Ryanair type ratings. I can assure you both that there are plenty of us who would much prefer to join a Bizjet operator but they won't even look at our CVs...and you know it.

[antonov09]

I agree totally with MikeHotel. Flintstone you are not the only one who gets all the trimmings and benefits in this industry so get off your high horse. No one said you missed out on anything. I get every benefit you get it doesnt mean I have to spell it all out braggingly to cadets who are trying to get the money together for this godforesaken FR type rating.
Yes its not the greatest deal in the world but if these guys pass the line and keep their heads down they will be earning 3 to 5k a month and gaining vauable experience. Better that sitting at home renewing their instrument ratings.
If you or I were cadets now do you think we would get a gig with all the benefits you mentioned? Chances are very slim and you know it.

[irishpilot1990]

Mikehotel,Well said.


Flintstone, firstly I offer my apologies for my lack of elocution (see I do have big words, and can spell when I want them). I also apologise I don’t prove read all my posts on a thread which has fallen into the entertainment category rather then information one.

Fair play to you on landing the dream job mate. Free type and top salary. Nice one. :ok:
You knew a contact in a high place, or someone else did, or you are really good and got that bit of much needed luck.

If the majority of us stuck to your principles then we would never get a job. Getting on the ladder is usually the hardest part. And there isn’t enough free type ratings for 10% of us never mind all of us.

And if you are going to say you had no special connections or were not blessed, then one evidently had multiples more then 250 hours and hence other options then paying for type or getting paid low.

And Flintstone thrust me I have the wit and imagination. RYN wont be the only CV I write up or phone call I make….as is the same for everyone else…little less arrogance:= would be nice when you know dam well everyone doesn’t have the luxury of sitting around waiting for what you say you have.Times are not good and maybe if you have another job to fall back into you can do this.For most Europeans there is NO job to fall back into and wait.:{

[redsnail]

I think you all miss the point. Why does Ryanair need to be your first job?
I have a friend at Ryanair, he's happy for the time being. He joined as a direct entry Captain.

Do you think our bizjet jobs are our first jobs? Heavens no.
Instructing, charter, freight, regional airlines etc were our stepping stones. Both of us have moved continents to seek better jobs.
It's my 6th job.
BTW, bizjets have employed low houred guys, but you have to know where to look.

Do you think we don't know exactly how you feel?
Wondering when someone will say yes?
We know exactly what it's like. It's painful and something I don't want to go through again. Been through it too many times.
It's frustrating like hell but low houred guys deserve a better deal than the one Ryanair demands from you.
Desperation is not a good bargaining chip. :(

Many of you are in a Catch 22. You've paid over the odds for your CPL/IR and so now you've priced yourselves out of the turboprop & instructing market.
That's very unfortunate.

As for those who feel that the airlines etc shouldn't have to pay for the type rating. Why shouldn't they?
With many new aircraft a certain amount of type ratings are thrown in for FREE from the manufacturer. Also, the airlines get the sim etc at cost price.
You have to pay for the instructor etc, with the airline, the instructor is already paid.

Also, the airlines and in fact all companies of a certain size have to demonstrate that they invest in employee training and enhancement to get subsidies/tax breaks.

Qantaslink in Australia started charging for Dash 8 type ratings. The applications dried up over night. They have now gone back to paying for the type rating & paying the pilots to train.

What sort of employer would you prefer?

If you can get the money without risking your house, your parents house and so forth, fine, just don't go broke "living the dream"...
Good luck

[TheBeak]

And there is your answer.

[mutt]

With many new aircraft a certain amount of type ratings are thrown in for FREE from the manufacturer Generally this is true, but i would see a company like Ryanair not accepting the manufacturers training allowance in order to force a cheaper aircraft price, especially as they have turned training cadets into a money making venture!

Also, the airlines get the sim etc at cost price Not true for any of the 4 aircraft manufacturers training centers that i have dealt with, additional training is charged at market rate.

Mutt

[Mikehotel152]

Seeing as the Mods believe this thread should degenerate into a Ryanair debate, I'll bite:

I think you all miss the point. Why does Ryanair need to be your first job?

No, we haven't missed the point! It doesn't have to be a first job, but it's not an awful option. In any case, you are not comparing like with like. The market was very different when you were starting out.

You suggest: Instructing, charter, freight, regional airlines for first jobs.

There are very few instructing jobs. FTOs have suffered in this recession and it is constant advice on this forum that a £7K FI Rating is not the key to hours it might have been even 3 years ago. In any case, instructing without any real motivatation to teach is intrinsically bad IMHO. In the past, Airlines did not take on low-hour pilots, so the route you followed was the norm. Things have changed. Given the choice between paying £7K in order to earn over £120K over 3 years to build 1500 737NG hours, I know which I would prefer.

Charter? Are you suggesting charter Airlines are recruiting pilots? They haven't suffered in the recession due to lack of demand, shedding jobs left, right and centre. The contacts I have are scared for their own jobs even though my CV has received good comments by being on the right desk (albeit at the wrong time!)

Freight? As with charter, they're not recruiting more than the odd few pilots, mostly, if not all, with plenty of hours. Many freight operators fly large aircraft and have the choice of many, many out of work experienced pilots.

Regional airlines? I'm sorry but the Eastern Airlines of this world only take people with 1000 hours minimum and the ones who do take low-hour pilots have closed their applications systems. Flybe etc have stopped recruitment too. I could list many other Airlines that aren't recruiting or have drowned under a massive weight of CVs.

Look, I'm not saying that there are no jobs out there but they are so few and far between that you could spend 2 years driving up and down the country with your CV and not even get an interview. Some of us don't want to be in the same position for the next 2 years and must get.

Ryanair and their expensive Type Rating offer a way to get a very good flying job on reasonable terms and conditions provided you are willing to put up with their awful system.

Qantaslink in Australia started charging for Dash 8 type ratings. The applications dried up over night.

If that's true then I would put it down to Australia being a small market with unique recruitment needs. Anyone advertising pilot jobs in the UK or Europe, whether charging for Type Ratings or not, is swamped with hundreds, if not thousands, of applications from hopefuls.

That is the situation with Ryanair.

Desperation is not a good bargaining chip

I'm not desperate but I will be flying a 737NG in 3 months time, earning a decent wage. In 2 years time I will have unfrozen my ATPL and in 3-4 years time I will be either a Captain or I will have moved to an Airline with better terms and conditions. I'm not desperate, I'm just sensible.

And there is your answer

And not a very good one either.

[redsnail]

Since I was accused of having it comparatively easy...

I finished my CPL in 1991. There was a recession. Had to wait 3 years for my first full time job. Instructed part time on the weekends waiting for the market to improve.

In a population of 22 million, a couple of hundred applications is the same as a couple of thousand "over here". There are more jobs in Europe/UK than there are in Australia/New Zealand, esp jet jobs.

I got my JAA ATPL in 2001/2002. In fact I was in an ATPL theory class in Coventry when the WTC were attacked. Yes, another recession..

My timing's been lousy.

Where did I say it was easy? We have been accused of "not understanding". We do understand, we've been there and we know that it does improve.

Market rates for simulators change. What CAE & Alteon etc will charge an individual is different to what they charge a company. Also, if a company pays for your rating, the instructor is paid by the company and you'll be paid to train.

What we also know is that not every one who graduates with a CPL will get a job. That's something the flight schools do not tell you.

If you want to go the Ryanair* route, go for it, just read the contract very closely, get it scrutinised by an lawyer so you know exactly what you are getting yourself into (tax, NI, base location and transfers, hotac, stby, sim etc). Don't be blinded by the shiny jet.

And as I posted earlier, don't go broke "living the dream".

Good luck :)

* or any other company that charges for a type rating and hires you as a contractor, not as an employee.

[Sciolistes]

Redsnail,

I agree with you in principle, but as you know the reality is that unlike Australasia and the US there is no GA industry in Europe capable of supporting the needs of the airlines. Africa is an option, but the opportunities are still limited.

With regard to the regionals, their requirements are no different from anybody else's. For most you simply will not get a look in if you are not prepared to stump up the cash.

I am absolutely certain, that the guys posting here would jump at an Aer Arann, Aurigny,Air Soutwest, Eastern, etc if the offer came rather than pay for a FR TR. But as they all ask for money FR would probably be the first port of call for many.

The Quantaslink situation is interesting. But seeing as Jetstar was and will be expanding rapidly and taking on GA guys with twin time, what right thinking Aussie would pay for a TP TR when they could pay for an A320 one and earn more?

With regards to the TRs, I don't think it is as straight forward as that. Our airline leases all its aircraft, they don't come with TRs. Whilst it is arguable that TR is a significant cost, I cannot understand how pilots can agree to pay for line training, that just baggers belief!

[Flintstone]

You knew a contact in a high place
No :(
or someone else did
No :(
or you are really good
Naturally :E
(Not really)
... got that bit of much needed luck.
Now you've got it! Luck that came from doing what most people do. Knocking on doors, staying the distance and taking whatever work came my way. I set my sights lower, planned accordingly and worked through as an instructor and a GA pilot. I had 2500 hours, all piston time, before I got near a jet and it was GREAT flying. I harbour not a single iota of bitterness about having to do it that way because I chose it and got what I expected and before you say "It can't be done here, that way, any more" I cry "B0llocks!". Only three days ago I wandered into my local flying club and was asked to role play the part of a student for a guy wanting to become an instructor there. They get applicants every week. Is he going to live on Pot Noodle for two years? Almost certainly, but at least his parents will keep their house.

I fly with people from a similar background which at the very least makes our flightdeck and down-route conversations....... nay, our lives FAR more interesting than would be the case between two modular, wunderkinden*.

Captain OATS: "So. Which batch of drones were you in?"
F/O OATS: (Five minutes later) "361B"
Captain OATS: (Five minutes later) "Oh"

GA Captain: "Ever been to (obscure place on the fringes of civilisation)?"
GA F/O: "Once. We woke up in the morning all in one room festooned with local fertility beads, stark-naked, surrounded by sleeping gibbons".
GA Captain: "Gibbons, eh?"
GA F/O: "Yup"
GA Captain: "With us it was orangutans"

Sorry but I just don't understand those who borrow a sackful of money all hinged upon well, another sackful of money, to go and work in a sanitised, hum-drum environment at a company where the CEO and management positively hate them. Where's the soul? Where's the fun? The vibe? The reason to get up in the morning? And don't tell me it's the thrill of doing London-Edinburgh back to back because that's just being in denial.

Look, folks. I'm not trying to rub your noses in it or come across as the salty old dog of the sea (ok,air) and if I'm coming across as curt it's because:

1. I've been ranting against SSTR for years.

2. The buggers who started and perpetuate it are ruining the industry.

3. Their 'f*ck you' attitude toward those they're spoiling it for grates with me. People who now look for work are paying to fly and all because someone, somewhere paid to jump the queue. It'll never affect me because you're right, I'm past that stage. But I still get angry when I the havoc it wreaks and that's why I continue to argue against it.

I'll also go out of my way to help anyone who wants to follow the slower, 'proper' route and I'm not the only one. GA/Bizjet people tend to help others out a LOT more than you find in the airline world.


PS. irishpilot 'tain't "elocution", just plain old spelling ;)



*From personal experience. I've interviewed several dozen most of whom, I'm sorry to say, would drive me to distraction five minutes into the cruise.

[Mikehotel152]

Flintstone, I think you're an interesting guy and I'm jealous of your career in many more ways than you realise. Your stance vis-a-vis SSTR is honourable and perfectly understandable. Unfortunately the world isn't honourable or correct. It's dog eat dog right now and no amount of luck or sentimentality can change that. I was speaking to a very good friend this afternoon (flies the 767 in the UK) and he pointed out that I am damn lucky to be getting a job in the current climate. No experience pilots I have met have said any different even though all know Ryanair's faults.

However Flintstone, my main point is that I think you make an unfair assumption about the type of people who join Ryanair. Of the half dozen I know, none are the 'Wunderkind' type you describe. I'm certainly not and I'd say you've misjudged the average Ryanair intake. The Ryanair pilots I know are generally from diverse backgrounds and have worked hard to be in the position they're in.

As for me, I'm a 30-something with a previous, interesting career, a desire to start a family as soon as is feasible (i.e. another 2 years on a low income isn't a go-er), an extended family spread around the continents and a youth spent abroad, plenty of hilarious and unusual stories to tell a bored Captain on the flightdeck. If you ever get lucky enough to share a cockpit with me you'll have a good time, honest :}:ok:.

Your comments might be better placed on the CTC, Cabair or OAA threads, not that some very nice people don't qualify out of those places!

[IrishJetdriver]

Airlines such as FR react to market forces. They're a business. FR are very very good at what they do.

Timing/luck can make a big difference. I joined FR 2yrs ago as a DEC and had never sat in a 73 before. FR paid for the lot, bonded me for 5 yrs and I'm not on a reduced salary. I'm also employed by FR and not Broookfield.

Pure luck/timing. Demand was exceeding supply.

[kr0me]

Was chuckling to myself reading all the bickering. Personally, I'm going to sell my vital organs to fund my training. :ouch:

[TheBeak]

So why is it then '99%' of the people I know with an fATPL who have funded their training by various means and have trained in various ways, would not pay Ryanair for a TR? They have not done the selection and nor would they. They instead are working in every industry but aviation, flying an SEP hour a month, waiting for the tide to change. What makes it all so different for an 18-22 year old that has a charge over his/her parents? Why is patience all of a sudden no longer a virtue? Why is money no longer an object? Because it isn't yours and you haven't had to earn it?

This doesn't apply to the likes of MikeHotel who is 30 something and has paid his/her way - what you do with your money and how much risk you take on your own is up to you. But Having your parents take a risk for your training and then basically blackmailing, actively or passively, with the whole 'it's the only job available forever' line is despicable. Can you not wait in line for your turn? You knowingly joined a big queue. You need to earn respect and responsibilty - not have someone buy it for you.

[Bealzebub]

Was chuckling to myself reading all the bickering. Personally, I'm going to sell my vital organs to fund my training.

Good idea, but not much demand I am afraid. Brains are in short supply, so they might command a fair premium. Hearts are also popular as they like to take these and break them into many pieces. The rest of the organs are of little value as they simply help themselves to these as you sleep. Livers are sometimes useful on PPRuNe as they can be squeezed to extract the bile. Similarly kidneys and bladders to extract other fluids. Remember to leave a small hole so you can vent your spleen!

[irishpilot1990]

Beak theres the two options, go for Ryanair, or sit and wait as you say.neither is wrong..so whats your problem?If one is does apply for Ryanair it does not mean they get it for start.
also you say the "parents" are taking a futher risk, i bet you the guy that gets into Ryanair has his loan paid before the guy that doesnt.the bank/parents/friends/family will be much happier then!
Neither option is wrong. .
This is an industry where you should at least try appear professional... coming on calling people parasites if they dont agree with you is nothing short of ignorance and snobby.Have some respect for yourself, and others.
Bet Beak is not as vocal when in the guy in the left hand seat makes a statement he disagrees with.:=

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've been busy so haven't commented much on this one.

I've been recommending the RYR deal for over a year now as its basically the only deal in town.

Having issued that statement, and knowing several nice people who are engaged upon the scheme - its a pile of ****.

You're paying 50% above list price for a type rating. You're going to be O Leary's bitch for 6 months and then you're going to be shot in the head or told to sign up to Brookfield. Which is kind of the same thing.


It will start your career. It will get you experience. It will make you Boeing rated. It will open up options. It will allow you to finance the loan repayments.

I know. I know it makes sense. I don't blame you. Read my second line again.


But for those not yet committed to this path TAKE NOTE. The best offer out there is to pay an exorbitant fee to get a trial period with a pilot-hating airline which will force you to become a contractor with close to Zero employment rights over when, where or if you work. Is that £70,000 still burning a hole?

Probably.



WWW :sad:

[blackred1443]

i think www summed it up with above post,it is in my opinion also a dreadful deal.

and before someone tells me its the only way forward thats a load of crap too.i started out post 9/11 jobs were like hens teeth, i managed to get a jet job without having to pay for tr.yes it did involve luck i will agree, but more importantly i think it involved patience and initiative, not marching into ryr hq with the cheque book in one hand and a tub of vaseline in the other

if its your own money then fair enough, but if its mammy and daddy remortgaging the house then serious questions needed to be asked.

the only thing ryr promise is the fact you will be down about 50k by the time they are finished with you.now i would imagine they will be slow to ever take someones cash and then say sorry no places for you as the tr scheme will die when word gets out.but how can giving yourself on a plate to mol be a good idea.

live the dream!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thats a pertinent point.

This thread has got bogged down with debt and how you pay for your FR TR.

In answer to those who moaned earlier about the moderation of this thread I say that the answer to the thread topic is either The Bank, or, your Parents. And that's it.

Thread over.


Oh, and the bank ain't lending..



The real topic worthy of discussion is what's life like as a Brooky for Ryan?

I genuinely. Honestly. Really. Think about it. Definitely. Think it would be like being a prostitute. A whore. MOL is the pimp. Brookfield the House. You the prostitute.


He tells you when and where you can work. What you will do. And if he doesn't like it you are thrown to the debt wolves. If you swallow his rules then joining a union is fruitless. Threats work. You can be sworn at in meetings. You will bring your own empty bottle to work. You may fill it once you have cleared security. You will walk to the aircraft. Across the the dark, streaming with rain, apron. Even though there is a bus taking EVERY OTHER crew to their aeroplane. You are not worthy. You are Ryanair crew. You earn more. Your salary is higher. Your tax status is better. Your career prospects are greater.


Lies. Falsehood. Dellusion.


Don't spenf £70k to put yourself in a position to pay £33k to MOL in order to accept this crap ersosion of the profession to which you aspire. Just Don't.


WWW

[TheBeak]

In answer to those who moaned earlier about the moderation of this thread I say that the answer to the thread topic is either The Bank, or, your Parents. And that's it.


Well, quite. If you need to ask the question then you can't afford it and you shouldn't be doing it.

The real topic worthy of discussion is what's life like as a Brooky for Ryan?


It would be in a world of real answers but you will get the usual pie-in-the-sky answers we are so used to from this lot. And they will really try and show that they are being rational by saying 'it isn't perfect' like they are leveling with us. No :mad: it isn't perfect. That's a euphamism for it's absolute crap working for them.

I am going to apply to have it put in the JAA ATPL HPL syllabus, Ryanair Denial. It's going to prove dangerous.

If you want a more realistic view, have a look in the Terms section up top. Don't ask a load of 20 year olds who were bought a 737 job for Christmas or you'll get fluffy :mad: out.

You boys and girls had better make hay while the sunshines because, as MOL boastfully admits - his airline loves a recession. The recession wont last forever. You have given him a mile and he is about to take a Parsec.

[birdsflyinghigh]

Has anyone managed to get a actual loan for this recently? Looking into providers now. I know there is a bank in spain that are loaning to OAA students, but waiting to hear back from them.

ta

[TheBeak]

Be careful with BBVA, there is a reason why they are so willing to lend to to a load of lemming, desperate pilot trainees.

[blackred1443]

its should be asked also why are so many airlines now charging for type rating.is it because 'mummy and daddys' offspring dont have any patience.its much easier to fire 50k of someone elses cash at the problem than have to serve an apprenticeship - instruct, light twin flying etc.try working in other parts of the world,use ones intiative,do the much less glamorous part of the process that worked for so many others before (including me thankfully!)

so much credit available,so much greed,so little patience,look what it has done to the industry.

sadly the whore comparison is very accurate me thinks

[birdsflyinghigh]

I totally agree, its way way outside of my budget, which has already gone beyond its initial limitations! NO more money for me, at least until an airline promises me a job with terms and conditions - then i will pay for the TR, if thats the way the world is heading.

I was wondering as I already have a loan, and have been exploring the refinancing of it. Just wondered who else do that kind of thing so i can investigate. BBVA are not my first choice, a bank that isnt even based in the UK already poses prblems for me in my mind.

Cheers for the responses so far..

[Bealzebub]

Dear wannabes

Just a quick heads up in support of the "parents" side of this argument. There seems to be a pervading assumption that a generation of parents will find themselves living in a trailer or cardboard box, having naively been pursuaded by the fruit of their loins that they should remortgage the family home beyond any ability to repay such a debt, in support of said childs worthy ambitions.

Whilst it is true that we leap with joy at the prospect of supporting the decisions our progeny make, that aren't likely to involve a a visit from the local constabulary, we have over the last 18 years or more learned a thing or two when it comes to children and financial acumen. Now don't misunderstand me, we know what a haemorrhage you have been on our wallets for the best part of two decades. From those shopping carts full of nappies and premium priced tiny jars of baby food, through clothes that lasted 25 minutes and toys that lasted even less. School fees that would have supported the foreign debt repayments of a small nation. Driving lessons, cars, university, holidays, allowances etc. There has never been a despot in history that has manged to tax our income in quite the way you have.

Despite all of this we have still managed to hang on to the family home. Yes we have moved from time to time, and we have refinanced to provide us with the illusion of moving closer to the utopia of our eventual retirement. We have deluded ourselves that you will grow up and leave home to start a life of your own one day. Then the mortgage will be paid off, we can go on that world cruise, and all will be right with the world. Of course we know that is a dream that reality will likely shatter, but our real experience of life has provided us with a hardened sense of self preservation.

So, whilst we are always excited in encouraging you in your dreams and beliefs, particularly those that might actually one day result in you not being an endless drain on our resources, we are also not stupid. Long ago we learned to write off any realistic prospect of ever seeing the return of money we "loaned" you, although we live in hope. Likewise, whatever we may have told you, we were not going to make ourselves destitute on the altar of your dreams, however realistic, wild or fanciful.

Just to cap it off, I might remind you that you have just spent the last 5 years or so, assaulting and insulting us with your hormonally induced attitude, temper tantrums, irrationality, unreasonableness, uncooperative behaviour, laziness, unsanitary and slovenly behaviour, all wrapped up in a package of hatred and ire directed squarely at us for having the audacity to bring you forth into this world in the first place.

Now it would be easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, that this change in your behaviour and newfound desire to become a respectable member of society would be a worthy investment on our part, if we were to sacfrifice ourselves to this new and expensive religion. However nature provided that antidote to us during your recent teenage years. So whilst there may be other childrens parents that can afford such things, most of us can't. Because we still love you, and labour in our illusions that you might leave home one day, we will of course continue to support you and help in any way that we reasonably can. Those that worry that we have somehow lost all sense of reason and self presevation, should set their minds at rest. It might sometimes appear that way, but we haven't!

Love,

Mummy and Daddy.

[Mikehotel152]

This thread has got bogged down with debt and how you pay for your FR TR

Er, no, that's what the thread was supposed to be about...it's just that you and TheBeak would prefer to slag off Ryanair instead. Oh, and it's nice to see that you've put your favourite Pimping record back on the turntable WWW. I honestly hadn't realised that pilots at other Airlines get to choose their Base, the times they work, and choose their own SOPs. Why is it that all the pilots I know outside Ryanair spend as much of their time moaning about their own jobs as you do about Ryanair?

Like you, WWW, I know some very nice people working for Ryanair on Brookfield contracts. They're realistic about Ryanair, their decision to pay for their Type Rating, their pay and terms, their tax status, the walk across the 20 metres of tarmac, and all the other stuff. But they would rather be working for Ryanair than sitting on the dole.

Seeing as it's fashionable to keep repeating the same arguments on this thread, I shall do the same. There are many people out there who did not mortgage their parents houses yet can afford to fund a Ryanair TR, who have worked damn hard to be in the position to start a career in the airlines, who would love to have the time to be patient and wait for the recession to end, but for whom Ryanair represents a sensible (if unpalatable) option due to their personal circumstances. It is a myth that all Ryanair FOs are 21 years of age...

I have yet to meet a professional pilot who has criticised my decision to join Ryanair and I would trust the opinions of those with whom I have spoken about my decision well above the views of disgruntled pilots on an anonymous forum whose opinions are based on third-hand rumour and their own prejudices.

[G-AWZK]

What an amazing thread.

Some turkeys will vote for Christmas after all.

I saw this coming 7 years ago, and it still amazes me that there are people dumb enough to swallow the bolloxolgy about having to pay for a type rating.

There are obviously free type ratings out there - however none of the chumps who are coughing up 33k (amazing - just amazing!) for a 737 type rating can see it.

The management are getting the free type ratings - in fact they are getting an even better deal! Not only do they get to laugh at you, they make a profit on you as well. Sadly none of those having hysterics about it can see this :ugh:

7 years ago I lobbied BALPA to nip this crap in the bud before the cancer spread throughout the industry, but as usual BALPA didn't see it happening at BA so all was well. IPA went one better and asked members to write in a tell them where the best SSTR was.

Pilots can be their own worst enemies at times. :{

[blackred1443]

i dont think its a case of people not being able to see there are free ratings available its just its easier to fire 35k of someone elses money at mol and say do your worst to me, than have to search for a proper job,being patient enough to serve an apprentice, show some initiative etc

its all a case of refusing to look at the bigger picture.

just look at the state of this career now because of the bank of mummy and daddy

[Mikehotel152]

blackred1443, G-AWZK...

You clearly aren't low hour pilots who have searched for jobs in the last year. :confused:

none of those having hysterics

Surely the only people having hysterics are people like you!

[blackred1443]

im not a low houred pilot now,i've not researched the job market now you are correct

post 9/11 i was a low houred pilot,i didnt have the money to pay for a tr.jobs market was similiar, ryr was the main recruiter, charging for tr

i still managed to get a job on a jet, without paying up front for it.it was salary deduction.yes it did involve a chunk of luck but also i would like to think down to me using my loaf.it forces you to show some initiative and be inventive in how i went my job search.where there is a will there is a way!these pay to fly schemes at ezy,ryr etc are destroying the industry.its needs to stop

i respect you may not share my view,but fail to see the hysteria in my opinion?

[Mikehotel152]

We're at cross-purposes, the quote regarding hysterics was from G-AWZK's post.

The experienced pilots with whom I have spoken regard this job market as worse than 9/11. I should add that I have a couple of very good friends who qualified about then, both of whom went into instructing and/or flying air taxi, one of whom got lucky after 3 years and has now been flying jets for 5 years, but sadly the other found himself to old to get into the airlines and missed out.

There are a lot of personal factors which determine whether one can afford to persevere with the job market or take the Ryanair 'deal'. Personally, I know I've made the correct decision.

[bigjarv]

When I was struggling to find flying work post CPL IR I did a plumbing course as it is a pretty lucrative, if not very glamorous, profession. Its not that hard being a plumber but it is pretty well paid.

The reason...

I thought this was brilliant! At the end of the course they tell you "this is the minimum hourly rate that the profession as a whole will charge. PLEASE don't charge below that amount to undercut the competition or else other plumbers will be forced to compete and the earning potential of everyone will be reduced". So as a result of this, the earning potential of plumbers still remains pretty high!

Now we, as supposedly intelligent pilots, will just clamber over one another to get jobs to the detriment of all else. It's not great it really isn't. However given the tough times and desperation, it is understandable and MOL and all airlines really will take advantage of you. As long as you know who you are. This is the only reason I can see to be part of a union no matter which one. There is no other benefit other than strength in numbers. But again this requires some selfless thought and an ability or desire to see the big picture cause being a part of a union is not free.

I always hope that when things pick up again and the number of jobs available increase and people have more options than Ryan they will move and seek employment elsewhere where they will be respected thus hindering Ryan's expansion. Ryan's "pay for your type rating" deal will be less attractive as people have other options so Ryan's ability to train new pilots quickly enough is reduced. Maybe then they will have to re think their offering and the tables will turn in favor of the pilot community once again.

Unfortunately the reality is, this won't happen. If Ryan is your first job you won't know any better plus people don't like change so when you are doing OK why move.

The result.....

We will never return to where we were before. Its just a fact. No point in discussing it anymore. Things change. At the end of the day it is survival of the fittest which includes us as pilots and airlines as entities. Money talks, end of.

[Mikehotel152]

Couldn't agree more bigjarv. The die is cast. Like it or not.

If I were 10 years younger I might not choose Ryanair but that's because I would have more options and more time to enter the industry in a manner that matches my morals. But right now I have to think about Ryanair on a purely personal level or I everything I have sacrificed for this new career will weigh more heavily on my mind than concerns about allegations that I have contributed to the downfall of industry-wide terms and conditions.

The reality for me is this: By Spring 2011 I will be in 'profit' notwithstanding paying for the FR Type Rating; by Jan 2002 I will unfreeze my ATPL; I could potentially be up for command in Spring 2014. All this assumes I prove to be a good commercial pilot, have the potential to sit on the lefthand side of the cockpit, and don't get booted by Ryanair or choose to move to greener pastures.

Terms and conditions are decaying in all industries. Pilots are no exception.

[blackred1443]

while i agree t and c are deteriorating in most industries other than banking :mad:.they do seem to be deteriorating at an alarming rate for pilot.while im sure mikehotel you do believe you made the correct decision for you in the short term, in terms of the rest of your overall career how can it be a good decision.you say a command beckons potentially in 2014, what type of a command will that be,what will the t and c be like.right now you are in a role where you have very little rights.they have wiped out 50k of your cash and what have you got in return.ryr can call you tomorrow and say sorry no work for you for six months.god forbid you get ill long term tomorrow where does that leave you,ryr dont care do they?

what kind of a job is that?what kind of a career is this?this race to the bottom will end in disaster for all.its more than a little disturbing.

i dont think the dye is cast,if people stop signing up for these crap pay to fly deals t an c will improve.simples

[bigjarv]

But the reality is people won't stop paying for these crap deals. Not for the foreseeable future at least. How are you or anyone else going to stop them? It's all very well bitching and moaning about it but it is going to happen so unless you can think of a way to stop them there really is nothing else to discuss!

Incidentally I think it is terrible that people are paying for their own type ratings. I think it is terribly short sighted on so many levels. I'm just glad I got into the industry when I did and didn't have to pay. I couldn't cope with another financial noose around my neck. There are too many other ones outside aviation that are also worthwhile. Gosh! Imagine that... a life outside aviation!

[Mikehotel152]

blackred, your points are mainly fair and I wouldn't disagree that the race to the bottom has started. I would love to say that I agree that it's reversible, but sadly I doubt it.

Nobody, Ryanair included, sees Brookfield as a career. It's the start of a career. I will see how it goes. If I enjoy it, I'll stay. I know Captains at FR who thoroughly enjoy their careers. I know FOs who are very content with their lot with Brookfield.

Once the recession ends and pilots have other options Ryanair may find themselves forced to change their attitude to SSTR. We'll see.

[Mikehotel152]

bigjarv - there is, and it's often more lucrative. I didn't change careers in order to make more money.

Let's get it into perspective; the financial 'noose' isn't that bad. Unpleasant but bearable.

[blackred1443]

mike hotel i do think it is reversible, if people stop paying for their own tr then airlines are forced to change.cheap labour is no longer available.my main concern is i have 35 years left in this game.i dread to think what its going to be like in 10 years time.while i can appreciate you had your reasons to choose to do the sstr, i think this cancer is ruining this career.ryr leads the race to the bottom and ezy and the rest follow in an effort to compete, terms get eroded.

i realise your probably earning quite a nice sum now at ryr but the lack of security offered for me is quite frankly terrifying,how can this be a career.

in my opinion is all it takes to stop this is people taking a stand and refusing sstr.ryr and ezy etc still need pilots, let them pay for it.just my opinion,i think im correct but it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong!:ok:

and also this is where the bank of mummy and daddy becomes a problem as generally those who can afford these crap terms are people who have the benefit of affluent parents

[Mikehotel152]

I completely agree that they should pay for it! Other than becoming defiantly unemployed - and subsequently divorced - I don't see what I can do about it. :(

Aside from posting sensible warnings, there's little more you can do for those willing to make huge and risky withdrawals from the Bank of Mummy and Daddy. If your point is instead that it's unfair that some have access to such funds while others haven't, I don't disagree but fairness doesn't play much part in life...I'm afraid.

[blackred1443]

mike hotel for me its not really a case of whether i think its morally right or wrong for daddy to pay for his 20 year olds tr,the bit that winds me up is when it directly impacts on my terms and i feel that this is now starting to happen.

i think if someone funds their tr out of their own pocket for me thats easier swallow in a way because they are making their own way in life, but when i see some rich kids generous parents directly buggering up my career, ya that sticks in my throat a bit.This career is becoming a battle of whose daddy has the deepest pockets.its no longer a sim/interview to find the most suitable candidate, its now about the funds the candidate can get his hands on.quite sad i think.but again just my opinion i could be talking b"£$%^!

[Mikehotel152]

Mate, I agree, which is probably why I keep posting on this thread, trying to explain my decision-making, so that people don't make assumptions about my behaviour and reasoning. There are always many sides to any debate.

IMHO nobody should secure positions like piloting, which requires skill and involves responsibility for other people's lives, unless they do so on merit. Money should not be a factor - at all. I don't care whether the person at the pointy end is rich, poor, multi-coloured, multi-limbed or speaks fluent Klingon, provided they do the job well and keep me safe!

In that respect, I guess I only care how people get hold of the money to pay for a Ryanair TR in as much as they don't gamble with other people's money.

As an aside, I should add that I've yet to see actual evidence that FR recruit pilots who aren't up to scratch but that may be because they get so many applications that they can afford to employ only pilots with excellent potential:p. Will things change once they face competition from other employers and potential Ryanair FOs vote with their feet, heading for airlines with better T&Cs? I don't know.

[pilotho]

i would have been really upset if FR just recruited people based on bank balance but i genuinely feel that beside the ability to pay for TR, they also assess the individual for suitability.

true there are a lot of young pilots being recruited and yes, they are being helped by their parents but could they also be decent pilots who are up to the job?

mind you, jet2 are starting to recruit again and if you are low hour, you could register with them.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You've made the right choice for your circumstance and I've recommended people to follow your path on these forums. Its the only game in town and it is better than most of the alternatives.

Its still another rung on the ladder down to **** creek that the profession is clambering. But thats not your fault. MOL has discovered that he can charge people for the chance to fly his aircraft from the RHS. Such a discovery is lucrative for him and other managers will copy him.


:(


WWW

[TheBeak]

MikeHotel, it is quite clear that you have paid for your TR yourself, you have a more rational and reasoned response. I understand why you paid for your TR. Someone such as yourself doing what you did isn't ruining the industry. Nor, for what it's worth to him or her, is the route Torque tonight has taken. But for 18-22 year olds (+ 5 years even) to be coming straight out of their FTO and deliberately applying immediately to Ryanair because they can't be bothered to wait, they can't be bothered to earn and they know that they can get the money easily to fund their training with a few tugs on the old heart strings is just deplorable and is definately ruinous to our industry. And I hate to break it to anyone, but it is what most who join Ryanair do. That's why the effect has been so large - it is undeniable. Just look at Oxfords placement figures into the company. Just look at the level of intelligence from some of the earlier posters on this thread. They are an embarrassment to you and your company MikeHotel, hence the reason you don't wish to be tarred with the same brush.

All of this aside, it is good to see a healthy, reasoned, calm and mannerly debate going on.

I maintain, Ryanair shouldn't be the answer that most FTO leavers come to and certainly not within 2 years of leaving.

Patience is a virtue. Don't force situations.

And to quote the Joker:

'If you're good at something, never do it for free'

[blackred1443]

couldnt agree more with the beaks comments.mikehotel has presented his argument in a controlled and intelligent way.while i dont agree with all of what he said it does make a pleasant change to some of the 'spoiled brat' reactions some have posted.

it is that category/age groups impatience that i do believe is causing alot of the issues we now face as pilots.it does amuse me though when they class themselves as ryr employees,because there in lies the whole argument.they are actually employed by no one,certainly not ryr, they are contractors and with all the uncertainty that it entails.the penny hasnt quite dropped yet but with time it will.

i do hope it works out for mike hotel,its clear he has paid his way and is under no illusion about where he stands.

such is life i guess

[Mikehotel152]

Much as I still feel this thread was hijacked and the debate over Ryanair should have taken place elsewhere, it's no bad thing to discuss what TheBeak and WWW and others identify as a huge change in the aviation industry. If anything, at least readers of this thread who are considering a career with Ryanair will realise it's a difficult and personal decision which needs careful thought.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

There are precious few options out there other than Pikey's show, but do not suffer from delusion: RyanAir is the cancer of aviation. You can not make a deal with the devil and cherry pick the bits you like, i.e. expect people to sit in silence while discussing some aspects of the contract.

Some bear a larger share of the responsibility for this than others, but as has been said before by Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Obs cop]

I think MH152 has hit a very large nail on the head.

"identify as a huge change in the aviation industry"

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity (re: selection day) to pay for their own type rating. For RYR there is no risk in the process, but more importantly, they can cut their costs massively.

I suspect this is a small but significant part of how they keep their running costs down, and therefore their ticket prices competative.

Contracted staff only get paid when they fly therefore no wastge on annual salsries etc. Their cost cutting knows no bounds with escape instructions on seat backs, online checking, encouraging no baggage, the only cabin crew (to my knowledge) who pay for the priviledge of their training and so on.

With type rating costs being a significant if not huge cost of staffing an airline, and the ever present blinded desire of some to pay whatever it costs to get a RHS of a jet as their first job, lets not kid ourselves that other airlines are not considering similar exploits. Business managers have a primary role to keep a business working, their priority is not to maintain your terms and conditions.

Indeed there are companies who sell a worse product than RYR, selling a type rating with line training, where you pay to fly and don't have a job, contractor or otherwise at the end.

Much as I hate the way the industry is heading, I am one of those looking at RYR as a potential route because of 2 fundamental reasons. Firstly the jobs market is not flooded with lots of employers, it would appear that for a low hours pilot RYR is the only option currently. Secondly, I am middle aged, with a family, house and mortgage and thus flying instruction is so poorly paid that if there were a job, it wouldn't support my family. Don't get me wrong, I have saved and earnt every penny to pay for my training, but I can't pay my bills on £15000 per year.

As to how to pay, there are several options:

1. Bank loan - good luck in a credit crunch, and if you've already got a £70k loan, I suspect it's not going to be viable.
2. Bank of mum and dad - only for the fortunate few, and a risk to offset someone elses property on your gamble.
3. The national lottery.
4. Saving/investments - the sensible if time consuming option.

Just my thoughts,
Obs

[ei-flyer]

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity

Mere pocket money for FR.

[UAV689]

going back to a previous post closer to the start where the author wrote about a plumbing course and being told not to under cut others was interesting -

could we compare new ryan cadets to the influx for polish builders driving down the money my chippie brother is able to earn? I supose so.

But - if ryan air was not around, and the loco had not been invented, i bet there would be thousands of less aircrew jobs available.

Without doubt ryan have changed aviation for good, for the better in the growth of aviation sector, therefore more aircrew jobs, but also for the worse in driving down t+c. Love 'em or hate them they have changed the industry forever.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Perspective.

There are guys out of Oxford etc who thought that getting their waterwings and floating in the BA, bmi, easy holding pool was a better deal than forking out for a 737 TR with Ryanair.

Unfortunately, someone pulled the plug out of the holding pools and the FR courses are full up with the mates of said cadets who shelled out for a TR.

Now like it or lump, but this is the reality: the cadets at FR are now being paid from when the safety pilot was released on their line training.

In 4, maybe 5 years they will have the hours for command: the holding guys waiting for BA et al are now at least 2 years behind them which means that after 14 years in the RHS they will NEVER catch up in terms of earning power.

Harsh, but that's the way of things.

[smiler68]

But no RSS, those guys who didn't manage to get into the BA selection before they shut the door on recruitment just over a year ago, would be far better off NOT applying to FR (the only gig in town at the minute) and instead taking up a data input job, because let's face it, that's what they'd far prefer doing in comparison to flying a jet, isn't it?? Or maybe instead they should take into account the people who do not have access to 33k euros (whether it's their own hard earned cash, a loan, or from mummy and daddy), and say to themselves " Hang on XXX can't afford to do this so my conscience tells me it's not fair and therefore I shouldn't do it either. Get Real. If someone has the money, and it can be sourced by WHATEVER means, then they shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of a few 'bitter' people who aren't in a similar financial position. It's a **** time in the aviation industry right now and one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder.

[TheBeak]

Thanks for lowering the tone there again Smiler, I think you think you sound smart, ruthless and 'Alan Sugar-like' but you just sound like a :mad:. I don't like to be directly rude (believe it or not) on here but your words are dangerous.

(the only gig in town at the minute)

at the minute being the operative words.

[smiler68]

Because calling someone who goes forward for the FR scheme a 'parasite' wasn't lowering the tone was it beak? As for 'at the minute' being dangerous words, I can only presume that you think even FR aren't recruiting anymore, when in fact they are.

[TheBeak]

Straight over your head - I wasn't talking about those words. You have gone off on a weak and directionless tangent. I was talking about these words:

and it can be sourced by WHATEVER means,[/B] then they shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of a few 'bitter' people who aren't in a similar financial position. It's a **** time in the aviation industry right now and one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder. ]

You promote that it is such a care free, risk free decision. It's funny the way you think I am so bitter that I can't afford a TR or my parents couldn't back me. Now I really am not bragging but suffice to say that I could pay for another TR if I was so inclined. I wouldn't. Why? I have very strong feelings that people should earn what they have, not be given it, bought it or steal it.

As for the 'parasite' comment - time to get over it.

[captain_rossco]

To play devil's advocate Mr Beak,

Might it be that those who took to the (training) skies a generation before us (many of which are now seasoned Legacy carrier captains), are as alarmed at the though of paying for training, Full Stop, as we are by paying for type ratings?

If your moral/advice/angle is to promote a little more forethought prior to spending money on a type rating, then i think you may make it well.
However it is poor form to suggest that in paying for a Type Rating, pilots are prostituting themselves to the lowest bidder.
Bonding is a concept we are all familiar with for new starters, so why not an upfront payment?

Every pilot will look at their careers with a set of scales in front of them, does the "what you get out" balance with the "what you put in"? It would appear at Ryanair, for those who can afford it, the answer is yes.

Regards
CR

[Bealzebub]

one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder.

It's this that bothers me. First rung on what ladder? I have been in this industry for 30 years and in that time have seen 4 or 5 full economic cycles. Airlines have come and gone. There have been major business casualties in that time, as well as good times and bad. However in the last 10 years or so there has been an accelerating change in the whole way the airline industry works.

The very notion that a first officers job on an aircraft such a 737 or an A320 , was the "first rung on the ladder" used to be treated with some derision, unless it was part of a rare, highly structured and selective scheme, as used to exist at Hamble/BEA/BOAC/British airways, and a few others. Alternatively there was significant "first commercial rung" employment from military aviators who were transferring career paths. Demand fluctuated with the cycles, but the experience base required was always high enough to ensure the rewards reflected the likely supply of suitable candidates.

The recent evolution of the low cost culture, and by this I don't just mean the well known low cost airlines, brought with it a complete re-think of the employment requirements. For an airline stripping out every conceivable unnecessary cost, the prospect of simply doing away with one pilot was a tempting proposition. Unfortuately for them, that was a regulatory non-starter. However the regulator seemed to have few qualms with them simply shovelling somebody with the requisite bits of paper in their paw, into the right hand seat of a passenger airliner, provided there was sufficient experience in the left hand seat. This then spawned a whole industry of new and established training schools, linking up with airlines to provide this low cost employee. Indeed there was was no shortage of people scrambling to subscribe to the concept.

The enticement was, that once the early sacrifice had been absorbed by a prospective candidate and the initial obstacles were overcome, they would then be on the same salary and career path as everyone that had gone before them. Like all good pyramid schemes that was often the case for the early players. As the new low cost airlines expanded, they created their own career vacuum that was filled from the bottom and that in turn created new demand for eager subscribers at the entry level.

Then two things happened. Firstly the hard recession that has yet to filter through to much of the industry, but will start to very soon, and for the next few years. Secondly, the legislative changes that extended many pilots careers from age 55-60 to age 65, thereby adding up to 10 years to an existing pilots longevity. This killed much of the ordinary wastage by retirement from the industry, and had the knock on effect of restricting movement and lowering terms and conditions from the base upwards. Couple these two major factors, with the new "vanity publishing" method of filling the right seat, and you have the perfect storm. Airlines can now decimate the terms and conditions for pilot employment, and spread those conditions up through the workforce, knowing that those higher up the tree have nowhere to go, and hence no choice. There is little or no demand for new captains in many companies, and precious little for the foreseeable future. Plenty of experienced pilots either unemployed or under threat of redundancy ready to jump at any chance that becomes available. This is exactly what is happening now.

Those on this so called "first rung" are not cheap labour that the airlines are salivating at the prospect of becoming expensive labour in the near future. They are cheap labour that can be easily and readily replaced by more willing "first rungers" as the situation dictates. In many airlines the right hand seat is either already, or in danger of, becoming nothing more than part of the revenue producing training system. Your participation is absolutely no guarantee of any ongoing commitment once you stop becoming part of the revenue stream. Of course, you can take your newly aquired type rating and line flying to another airline. Except that more and more of those "other airlines" aren't much interested in you either, unless you are prepared to be a revenue stream for their own schemes. With few retirements, and little or no movement, the pool starts to back up and overflow. That is what is happening now.

It is alarming just how rapidly the deterioration is spreading up the tree. It won't be too long before people have to pay for their own command assessments, command training, and new type ratings. In fact, in some companies it is already starting to happen. That first rung you aspire to get on, may in fact be nothing more than a hamster wheel, where you pay through the nose to get nowhere fast, or are pushed out/fall off, when you become irrelevant to the business model.

I think changes will come eventually. In the US, there are already legislative changes now coming through to restrict this type of employment to those with at least 1500 hours. I think that will happen here as well eventually. In the meantime there are going to be alot of "tears before bedtime", and that will be throughout the entire industry, not just the entry level "first rungers."

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Bealzebub- Excellent post!

Having done TR courses on A320 and B737 as well as another jet and both medium and heavy TPs I again am looking for a job. FR seems to ONLY take on guys with NO airline experience.
But what bugs me the most is that they charge over 30k!? You can get an A320 AND a B737 rating for that price!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bealzebub - excellent posting, thank you making an enormously important point so well.

These SSTR's and contract/felxible working jobs are underming the foundation that whole the whole profession up. They have the capacity to bring it all crashing down. The traditional fixation that 'making it' meant a jet job with a large/medium airline is no longer the end point it once was.


WWW

[The Real Slim Shady]

BCNS,

FR don't have the requirement for DECs that existed 5 years ago: there are enough SFOs ready for CU within the company to fill the majority of available positions in the foreseeable future. That said, guys with good command time on the 737 - 300 - 900 are not necessarily being rejected out of hand.

Nevertheless, the company prefers to take shiny new cadets ( first rungers ) and train them to the RHS because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures.

That is the choice of the management: it has little to do with the cost of the TR or any "profit" generated.

[TheBeak]

TRSS, do you really, honestly, actually believe what you just said? That is absurd. It has everything to do with the very definate profit made from the TR and the 'selection' for it. I am sorry but what a load fo rubbish.

The:

because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures.


bit that you mention is a bonus for them because it means their pilots have nothing to compare the dreadful conditions on offer to. Of course their is not the element of having to train out different SOPs but it isn't their problem as they aren't paying for the training. They also would not like to have to bargain with people to entice them across to Ryanair from other airlines using proper Ts and Cs. Their whole recruitment policy is geared towards paying the least, having the upper hand and monopolising people and the industry. They achieve this through recruiting desperate low experienced people who generally haven't had to earn the money they are paying them to fly for them. They work like a casino - they always make sure you 'win' just enough to keep on 'playing'. After all, people without money can't keep on playing. Snot nosed little 18 -25 year olds who have trained on the back of mummy and daddies home seem to defy this rule however......but for how long? I guarantee not forever.

[flash8]

Bealzebub

One of the best posts I have ever read on PPrune in the last ten years. encapsulating a philosophy that is insidiously working its way in to the industry. I totally agree. Well said.

Flash
ex Self-Improver (remember those?)

[pilotho]

i seriously don't understand why there is always an attack on the younger pilots on this forum. we all understand that we are borrowing money from our parents to start training but it doesn't mean that we will forget about them as soon as we are on the ladder.

i don't take this advantage for granted because i know without my parents, i wouldn't have been at this stage of my career but when the opportunity of ryanair came along, why wouldn't i take it? i get to keep current, get paid, remain in the loop and most importantly i am learning the trade and gaining experience. at this moment in time, what is better? refusing to join ryanair and becoming rusty with little experience or join ryanair and become experienced?

at the end of the day, who got lewis hamilton to where he is?

[blackred1443]

i think pilotho unfortunately like many in a similiar position to yourself you are completely missing the point.

the problem with mummy and daddy sponsoring you, is that you can afford to take on crap terms hopeless pay etc because you are not standing 'on your own two feet' or so to speak.
a candidates suitability to be offered a job as f/o at ryr etc has more to do with your parents financial status than just your ability as a pilot.what seperates you from me is i couldnt afford to pay for a tr you could, so you could afford to take crap terms, i couldn't.it becomes a very uneven and unfair playing field.while should my company offer me the terms they do when you come along and accept crap because at the age of 23 your unwilling to patiently wait for that jet job rather than throwing 35k at the problem.how does my company compete with ryr bases on employee costs,they cant,so they my cut t&c

you take the jobs away for the general pilot community and they are available to a select few i.e. those with wealthy parents

the lewis hamilton analogy probably isnt appropriate because as far as i know mclaren havent charged him 35k to drive the car, they havent told him to set up his own company so he can get paid.he doesnt work for an agency.hes guaranteed an annual salary not we will pay you by the race if we need you to drive, and he got his job down to ability pure and simply,daddy may have paid for him to drive carts in the early days but he still has a very rare god given talent.he was being supprted by daddy while in formula 1.and fernando alonso or any other drive didnt have his terms attacked because lewis hamilton entered the sport.probably not quite the same situation when you analyse it is it:ugh:

to be honest your post just sums up the whole problem with the bank of mummy and daddy.its blissful ignorance of the damage it causes.im sorry if this comes across as blunt but how can you fail to see the damage it does and the reason people have an issue with it?:rolleyes:

yes you are getting to learn your trade,but what will your trade be like in 5 or 10 years time because of your decisions

[The Real Slim Shady]

TheBeak

It has nothing to do with the profit: the experienced FO would still have to pay for a TR or an OCC. It has everything to do with getting a clean slate to work with.

When you own / run your own airline you can be as generous as you like and you can choose who you do or don't employ; just like MOL.

I reiterate, the poor folks who were floating in the now dried up holding pools will NEVER catch up with their peers who joined Ryanair in terms of earning capacity.

You pays your money, takes your choice, and and 10 years in the LHS with FR over 10 years in the RHS with BA is a no brainer!

[blackred1443]

i think trss you have made a very dangerous assumption on the future earnings of ryr employees against those of a legacy carriers.the last time i checked a ryr pilot on a crookfield contract was guaranteed nothing in terms of salary or hours or even time to command against the top scale in ba which is up on 150k.i think alot also depends on how old the individual is

[TheBeak]

An excellent post Blackred, we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

TRSS, I hear what you are saying and:

the poor folks who were floating in the now dried up holding pools will NEVER catch up with their peers who joined Ryanair in terms of earning capacity.


is a very interesting and questionably true statement. But the guys and girls floating in the BA, Easyjet etc holdpools probably wouldn't be selected and probably, in general, wouldn't pay for the TR.

and and 10 years in the LHS with FR over 10 years in the RHS with BA is a no brainer!

Something to think about there again, I just don't know, if I had the two opportunities offered to me, cost aside, I am almost certain I'd take the BA option. But I can't help but think long term.

Thanks for your objective and valid response though TRSS.

[northern boy]

This nonsense will end after the first fatal accident involving a "pay to fly" FO.
Sad, but that's what it will take before the cretins in Parliament will get off their fat backsides and actually do something. Sad also because apart from the loss of life, the spotlight will be turned on this industry and the usual whackos will crawl out of the woodwork demanding higher taxes and more restrictions. The end result will be higher costs and less available jobs for all the little rich kids who are currently buying their way in to the detriment of everyone else.

[blackred1443]

i wonder now that xmas is approaching will santa be overwhelmed with letters from with the apple of mummy and daddys eye asking for a 737 and an a320 rating!?

[Mikehotel152]

Some interesting points of view on this issue.

Bealebub's post is certainly a fair assessment of the current awful situation facing the industry as a whole but in my opinion you can't extrapolate from there and reasonably place this poisoned chalice at the feet of the individual 'first runger'. That would be akin to blaming the individual consumer for house price inflation because it was they who paid over-the-odds in a rising property market. Yet we don't blame the consumer because we know it was Government policy and Bank greed that lit the fire; consumers had little choice but to fuel it for fear of missing out on buying their own homes.

So I really don't think you can blame the people entering the industry now for the Aviation Industry's move to the no frills, low cost shorthaul model over the last ten years. I agree that each person who signs up to work in the low cost model is greasing the pole and we'll continue to slide down it, but for every person who atruistically says a big 'NO', there will be 3 more who will say an enthusiastic 'YES'. In my opinion there is no realistic way of reversing this trend aside from regulation in the form of introducing a requirement to hold an ATPL before flying a passenger jet.

In the absence of regulation, are those with talent and real desire to be commercial pilots, who would be willing to take a more traditional course into the industry if that particular river hadn't almost dried up, supposed to sit back and watch their peers surf ahead of them on the Ryanair wave?

A controversial thought: Is gaining a job with Ryanair a kind of modern day Pyrrhic victory yet perhaps a little preferable to being stuck in the doldrums?

[Bealzebub]

Nevertheless, the company prefers to take shiny new cadets ( first rungers ) and train them to the RHS because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures. That sounds like a reasonably good definition for something we used to call experience. Once trained do these "new cadets" then become similarly "ladened down" by these recently learned SOP's and cultures? It is astonishing to think that people can perceive themselves as so restricted, that education and experience is seen as a burden rather than a benefit. Even if what is being stated has an element of truth to it, it is rather undermined by the commercial profit angle, than it would be if it were being advanced from a purely altruistic viewpoint. The advantages of a "wealth of experience" seem to have been corrupted into simply an advantage of wealth!

There was a thread on here recently about some new charter/leasing outfit that was recruiting new "cadets" to crew and even train new recruits for the plethora of low cost leasing opportunities that it felt was coming its way. In an advertisement that contained no telephone number, no address, and no names of company management, it asked applicants to participate if they had a PPL! If they couldn't satisfy this strict criteria, they could apply if they had an NPPL! The only strict criteria they seemed to have established was the number that they wanted writing on the cheque these people would hand over. I am sure the motive was also to avoid being burderned by those ladened down with knowledge or experience. Indeed, it would have to be!

i seriously don't understand why there is always an attack on the younger pilots on this forum. we all understand that we are borrowing money from our parents to start training but it doesn't mean that we will forget about them as soon as we are on the ladder.

i don't take this advantage for granted because i know without my parents, i wouldn't have been at this stage of my career but when the opportunity of ryanair came along, why wouldn't i take it? i get to keep current, get paid, remain in the loop and most importantly i am learning the trade and gaining experience. at this moment in time, what is better? refusing to join ryanair and becoming rusty with little experience or join ryanair and become experienced?

To some extent your post answers your own question. It is a denial or what is happening, and an omission of any acknowledgment of what is being highlighted on this and similar threads. I am a parent of numerous children, including children who want to become commercial pilots. I am a senior pilot myself and would want to do everything I could to offer my own children the support, encouragement and opportunity to give them a head start. I am very well placed to to do so in respect of many of the aspects that might be perceived as advantageous to a potential candidate. However the advice I am giving my own children is the same advice I am giving here.

I have no agenda, or axe to grind with anybody. My participation on this forum is partly because of my own family situation, and my own background as an instructor. I want only the best things for this industry. I want to see flying schools thrive and prosper. It is in these schools that many of the real "first rung" jobs have, and always will, potentially exist. I want to see the continuation and modification of a standard that shows healthy discrimination (don't misinterpret the word,) in the standards required for advancement. I want to see airline careers that represent the top of the pyramid, in levels of attainment, and commensurate rewards. Careers that are really careers, not just "jobs"! Even worse, that they are not limited duration, sales pitched, commercial marketing opportunities, intended to extract large sums of money from would be hopefulls on the back of vague promises of a "career" somewhere over the brow of a hill.

I am conscious of dissolving into metaphor, but nevertheless let me tell you how I see it.

I find myself working at the top of a very attractive tree, in what has been a long established and very leafy and pleasant copse. It has taken a long time to get to the upper branches, but for those with a head for heights, it is the place to be. Were it not for the demands of my darling wife, my little darlings, and that Mr Darling in Downing Street, I would earn enough to buy myself a brand new Ferrari 430 every single year. These attractive trees have enticed a new batch of young climbers every year for as long as I can remember. The upper branches have slowly grown and only become vacant as my fellow occupants reach a certain age and move off to another copse by the seaside, or they expire and fall out of the tree.

A few years ago, fearful of the challenges being presented from the fast growing, genetically modified and high yielding forest, being planted in the nearby field, the custodians in suits, who manage, cultivate and sell the fruit of the trees in this copse, started to take some defensive action. Firstly they introduced an admission fee and some strict contractual stipulations on those who wanted to climb the tree. Then they put a barbed wire collar around the trunk about two thirds of the way up towards the canopy, so that those new climbers could only ever climb so far. At the top where the view is spectacular, we watched in some bemusement at what was going on below. Obviously we were relatively unaffected, although we did wonder what was happening. Then recently we noticed that our custodians in smart suits have retreated to a safe distance, and into the copse have arrived some men with chainsaws and pruning shears. We hope this is to tidy up and smarten the tree as promised, but despite the panoramic view we occupy, it has instilled a significant degree of nervousness. If this tree is pruned so that it no longer has a leafy canopy, where are those new climbers going to climb to? Already their aspirations have been curtailed, even though they seem to think that the recent barbed wire collars will be removed to allow them further progress. Now there is the sound of the chainsaws being started!

Look, I have no problem at all with people borrowing money from their parents or anybody else. I have no problem at all with glossy brochures, or anybody painting a rosy picture to sell anything. It happens in all walks of life, and part of the process of becoming an adult is learning to recognise and beware of such temptations. I wish people well in seeking to obtain a better future for themselves. However there needs to be a reality check. As I have already pointed out that reality is not an unfailing prediction of the future, or a complete understanding of what is happening. It is an assessment and observation being made from an advantageous viewpoint.

Undoubtably some people will continue to gamble on what is becoming a very elusive and significantly constrained career. I have no problem with that concept either. However I wonder how many people would play the lottery every week, if you had to buy £100,000 worth of tickets to stand a chance of winning? Even less I suspect if the potential prize money on offer was barely likely to cover the stake, let alone live an aspirational lifestyle. Much as I am pleased at the prospect of my children following in my footsteps, I have already told them that the pathway no longer leads to the same destination, and people have planted landmines in the intervening period. I may (as some would say on here) seem very negative, but I am simply saying be very careful. Listen to those who might be able to help, even if it is not what you want to hear. Open your eyes, and navigate this path with extreme caution!

Airlines are struggling and fighting tooth and nail to turn a profit from people who believe they can fly for 99 pence. Can you imagine how stupid they would be to ignore the market for people who are ready to pay tens of thousands of pounds for the opportunity or chance to sit in the right seat of one of their aircraft, with no commitments on either side, and a healthy supply of customers. They used to pay big money to applicants for these seats, now the applicants pay big money to the airline in order to sit there.

This nonsense will end after the first fatal accident involving a "pay to fly" FO.
Yes quite probably. I also note you said "involving" and not "caused by". The public wants to fly for 99p, but it still expects the latest technology, the best standards of maintenance, and the highest calibre of operating personel. On the balance of probablilities, it is inevitable that at some point there will be unpleasant images of some unfortunate event splashed across the pages of the Daily mail and repeated ad nauseaum on Sky news. These are two of the publics main windows on the world. They seek instant answers, and just like lightning, they want the path of least resistance in obtaining answers for their impatient audience. This is the media that will be the catalyst for eventual change.

Where is the need for courses that enable cadets with barely 100 hours to qualify as airline pilots? This is not the first or second world war, where the demands of the nations survival requires raw recruits to be made operationaly ready in a matter of days. There is no shortage of commercial pilots. If structured, relevant, multi crew training is seen as a vital part of the entry level requirements for an airline pilot, why is not made an addition to a predetermined experience base, rather than a substitute for it? What is so special about the new courses being cobbled together in the home counties, Spain and Florida that overrides the need for an experience base? Where is the imperative? The answer of course is back to those cost reductions being clamoured for by the airline accountants. In order to drop the cost of employing a pilot, they must increase the supply by whatever means they can that doesn't involve them in their own additional costs. These new schemes are the answers to their prayers. They not only drive down costs at the oversupplied and self financing entry level, they have the additional benefits of driving down costs throughout much of the upward chain, and being a whole new profit centre in themselves!

In the United States, similarly profiled accidents, that may or may not have been a contributory factor, have stimulated the change that is now going through congress. An Airline Transport rating and 1500 hours minimum experience is set to become the new basic benchmark for this type of flying. It will happen here as well eventually, and probably not before time.
There is no difficulty whatsoever in finding suitable candidates to fill these seats from such a benchmark position. Of course the difficulty would be in finding enough who would do it for a low level of renumeration, or none at all, or would pay a company to sit there.

[wayupthere]

Folks lets not forget this pay for work problem isnt just ryr or industry related, my last engineering company used engineers as self employed for out of house work, this meaning the engineers had to buy and pay the upkeep for their own vans, no such thing as company vans, hence if you couldnt afford or own the van, you couldnt have the job.

I know some of you will say thats no way the same as the sstr, well at the end of the day its 20k so you can do the job!

[pilotho]

i fully understand that it seems that as long as you have money then you could enter the industry and that will be it. however i am sure they all had to pass the IRT just like everyone else so i am sure that the standard is still there.

the thing that i don't like is that there seem to be a generalisation that if the pilot is young then he or she is automatically assumed to be irresponsible and had it all given to them. the point i am trying to make is that either though he or she might be young, they had to carry out the same tests and reach the same standard. granted there are plenty of pilots with much more experience and are restricted from a job because of financial reasons but people are not going to stop themselves from paying for a TR through moral reasons. going back to the lewis hamilton analogy, if his father wasn't able to come up with the funds to support him in karting, then how would he have been spotted by mclaren? i dont think he would have turned around to his dad and say that because someone else can't afford it then he would restrict his own future by only going into karting if he had earned his own money. how old would he be once he has finally earned the money? would he still be able to be a world champion if he did that?

i fully appreciate that people paying for TRs are posing a restriction for people without the advantage of affluent parents but you will never stop them all. a bit like recycling, you might do it but would that save the world? forgive me for using analogies at every opportunity.

ultimately, i seriously would be against people without the correct aptitude and skill to be in the RHS simply through money.

[smiler68]

Play the ball - not the player!

HWB

[TheBeak]

Irishpilot1990, I saw what you wrote to me - you said I clearly had tried to be selected by Ryanair but failed and then went on to say or I had done 'this' or I had done 'that' as your idea as to why I have the views that I have. First of all, don't use words that you clearly don't understand, like the word clearly. If it is so clear why are you giving 'ors'? I'd say to you it seems as clear as mud. Think, then speak - in that order. You do the public standing of your airlines 'selected' pilots no favours with your poorly reasoned, spoilt-brat-like, child-like, weak, unintelligent, everly obvious contributions that stem from an enormous amount of mollycoddling I'd imagine and a lacking of life experience. Don't worry, it'll come fella and from the route you have chosen, probably the hard way. For the record, I have never, ever, ever, ever done a Ryanair selection and nor would I and right now nor could I (unless I am willing to pay another 33K for something I already have). It was said in the latest BALPA magazine in the last week that Ryanair wont take the likes of ex-Excel guys and girls because they'd have to pay them a proper salary. It's a fact. It has nothing to do with ironing out other airlines SOPs.

If my words hit home too hard for you, then listen to the likes of MH152, Bealzebub, WWW and Blackred. If you wish to use me as a punch bag to vent your frustration over the embarrassment of having to be bought 'life' by your parents, then punch away big boy. I'd be embarassed too. There is less than no pride in it. And as for saying that these people passed an IR or the ATPLs so they have fairly reached the standard, come on! The ATPLs are an insult to ones intelligence generally and the IR isn't rocket science past being able to fly a plane - it's a case of following instrumental instructions and following the rules. Then again, the way some of you lot seem to try and oppose the system, no wonder you found it a struggle. The most important part of being selected to become an airline pilot, in my opinion, past all the flying exams which to my mind are a sort of entrance exam, is the personality selection - the interview - something Ryanair apparently couldn't give a :mad: for.

As for you smiler, with regards to this site, you're throw away, just look at your posting history. You offer no advice, you just try to argue and be rude without adding a single molecule of value either way.

I'd like to point out that I do not have a problem with refute to my opinions, MH152, TRSS etc all make valid, worthwhile, value-adding, rational and reasonable points in favour of thr Ryanair TR. It isn't overwhelming though and the Cons still by far outweigh the Pros.


P.S. As for you comparing me to Nick Griffin, Irishpilot1990, again you are speaking irrelevantly, out of your depth and like the little boy or girl you present yourself to be.

[TheBeak]

You can't spell.:D

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Ok so this is where I am...
I am very proudly about to start a SSTR with Ryanair and to be honest I can't be happier. Am I lending money off my mum and dad..... Yes! Am I lending 30K...... No!
Is it embarrassing..... No! For the last 7 months since leaving my flight school I have been working. And not just your standard bar job, I have been working over 60 hours a week to afford to be able to progress in a career that I have wanted to do since I was young.
Is the SSTR a risk, bloody hell yes. A calculated risk all the same. If I didn't do this then I would be another person resitting my IR in March and then again the following March waiting for the market to pick up. I am not going to sit around whilst a decent job passes me by.
I do not know how much money I will be lending, but at the moment it wont be any more than 10K. That, I could lend from my bank, I have talked to them about it, but I will be stung on the intrest. Something that I believe I will be paying enough of over the next many years of my life. And something you will all probably agree is needed, but honestly could do with out. My parents have offered me the money on a LOAN basis, i am paying them back with intrest but half of that with the bank! Win Win in my eyes, I get my money, parents make money! Bonus!
I am sorry that I may upset people for what I am doing, however I have worked hard to get what I now have, just as many people have worked hard to get where they are, why don't I deserve the same.
People need to face that aviation industry is changing!! For the better? Who knows? But all I know is that I am in the middle of it. You have to grab the bull by the horns in change and hang on for the ride. Lets hope its a smooth one!
Take care
Safe Flying everyone.

[irishpilot1990]

least i have a life!!and an open mind!:D

[TheBeak]

have asked you what companies at the moment or in next 6 months will be hiring cadets(more then 1 or 2 sons and daughters) and paying the cadet for type rating??

Thanks for adding the value, what does the above mean exactly? I think you need to slow down, settle down and get ready to 'go down' when your 'airline' really demonstrates it's lack of commitment to you. You are on a rolling one month contract. I wouldn't be so comfortable if I was you.

And Tommyg, take off your rose tinted glasses. Read up on Murphys law.

[irishpilot1990]

it means you siad there are other options for low hour cadets??what are they...you still havent given any of us any details of these so called "options and free type ratings".
yes i agree there is some...few and far between and you have to be in the tiny loop or extremely lucky to get them...
And look a direct attack on tommyg...someone whos giving you an alternate view that disagrees with yours...grow up...
and also where have i said i work with or for ryanair or brookfield on this forum?!!?
because i am not on a "rolling one month contract"..and many people prefer a one month contract then sitting at home waiting...waiting to renew their IR twice or three times!!

[irishpilot1990]

The Beak, March 2007:

Quote:
I am 22, have a PPL and have the money to complete the rest of my ATPL training with Oxford through their 'Waypoint' programme. I also have the opportunity to go to Sandhurst and be in the Army for 4 years and then do my pilot training. I do not have a degree though I did do a couple of years at uni doing Mechanical Engineering. Ultimately like everyone else on here, I am sure I want to be a commercial pilot. Is it going to add any value to someone like myself doing the Army for 4 years and then being qualified to fly at 27 or am I just as well off being 23 with an ATPL? I am interested to hear peoples opinions especially from those qualififed or who have jobs............

Thanks very much.

P.S. Army Air Corps is not an option as it would tie me into the Army for too long and would get me a military helo licence with not many hours which I do not see much value in. I have passed both Royal Naval and Army pilot selection and do not want to go down that road.
How did you manage to go from a silly little ppl holder to an all knowing chief test/training/super pilot in around 2.5 years?? I'm very impressed.
"

End quote....

And

"No I am not currently flying for an airline unfortunately. I have done in the past and will do in the future."

Funny, something doesnt add up that in MAR 2007 you had a PPL..so earliest you could have had a frozen ATPL was JAN 2008.
And in the following 18months you managed to find an airline who would give you a free type rating and then let you go in that short space of time!!!:sad:

And your the one painting life outside Ryanair as been better?!?how?
maybe in 2007 if you went to Ryanair you might be near the LHS now!!Correction you would be!

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Well what else could I expect from you The Beak. Never mind one day you to will be happy! I believe you may be the same age as me, what has upset you so much in your life for you to be so angry? For god sake man pull your self together.:ugh:
8 hours in a cockpit with you....................
NO THANKS!
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong! Correct, however you must try your best whilst the thing that will go wrong is currently going right!
Remember the glass is always half full..... Well half empty in your case!
All the best The Beak.
Take care and happy landings.

[TheBeak]

I am not getting sucked in by you. This is pointless. You are self perpetuating. You argue with yourself.

Though, since you want to discuss dates etc. and past posts how come you wrote in June:

Hello,

I am in the same boat...I have irish IAA ATPL exam results..and want to do my CPL the CAA route..from my reading of LASORS this is ok....but i am trying to get clarification from the CAA and...

So you hadn't done your CPL in June but now fly for Ryanair? Really, that's interesting. Another 'Ryanair pilot'.

[irishpilot1990]

exactly my point i never said i worked for ryanair or brookfield...you jumped the gun as usual! edited to add i have attained my CPL since that post!!:)

and you still have not told us how you managed to find the perfect free type rating and super salary job...and lose it with the last 18months!!!:ok:

[smiler68]

the Beak, you claim that the Ryanair selection is a complete joke and the selection panel place no emphasis on the interview part, can you answer me how you 'jumped' to this conclusion when you state that you have never in the past, or never will in the future go for assesment at FR?

[BritishGuy]

Can someone tell me what would be required in order to upgrade at Ryanair? I've seen the Direct Entry Captain requirements and I'm not quite there, but was curious, if one was to join as a fresh First Officer, what qualifications would be needed in order to upgrade.

Thanks.

[TheBeak]

Sure Smiler, I read it and I have heard it. Here are a couple of comments that I read:


The Ryanair pilots who do the sim assessment are human: they are experienced pilots and you will find yourself doing base training or line training with them.

They are NOT like the "up their own assholes" ThomsonFly assessors so don't worry.
PS FR is the best job in the business so keep applying, and whatever else you do, don't ever mention being in some holding pool.


From TRSS.

And:

Like the lads say above the assesment is lost and won in the sim from my experience.
If You fly well, wipe the Pilot monitorings backside
and be yourself you shouldnt have a problem.

From The Glide.

Irishpilot I did assume. And you have proved my whole point. You are admitting defeat before you are even qualified. You know you wont bother sending out a C.V. to another airline and wait it out a year to see what happens, it's far easier for you to take advantage of your parents good nature and just pay for the job with Ryanair. It's pathetic. Don't wonder why many more crashes will happen and why this career is going down the pan.

[irishpilot1990]

Beak says "Don't wonder why many more crashes will happen and why this career is going down the pan."
So now Ryanair pilots are a dangerous??? Haha And as I said before we ALL past the same tests to get our license...
This time next year there still won’t be free type ratings for us all mate…
Your delusions get funnier daily.

Still waiting to find out how you went from a PPL holder to an all knowledgeable free type rated airline pilot who is now unemployed in less 18months.... astonishing!! Anyone else not find this unusual coming from a guy with such strong views?

[TheBeak]

Irishpilot, to answer the question you have now asked three times and which I have ignored, I will quote McNulty who offered a similar response to me:

you should start to think that its none of your ****ing business how

And don't speak about things getting funnier daily with the quality of your spelling heading the way it is. You are the King of Malapropisms. Now, rather than take this thread from all the people, who I do believe have actually been 'enjoying' it, any further, let's allow the debate about Ryanair to continue. From now on, you are arguing on your own, the concept having a slanging match with someone I don't know, over a computer, is actually an embarassment and laughable. I feel silly. I'll continue to discuss when it gets back on topic, if it gets back on topic.

[spudgunjon]

BritishGuy - Ryanair do not seem to favour recruiting experienced F/O's.

For what it is worth the command upgrades (I'm led to believe) are around the '3000 hour on type' mark.

[TheBeak]

Not only do they not favour it, they don't entertain it. There is no chance.

[spudgunjon]

Judging by that categoric clarification from our good friend The Beak, are we to read into it then that Ryanair have NEVER taken on an experienced F/O before and will NEVER do so again?

Not having a pop old chap, just forewarning the impressionable of our community to the dangers of taking everything on face value. Especially on pprune. Especially posted by you :ok: (without those 'cold hard facts' that you never seem willing to divulge of course)

However, in somewhat less emphatic terms than Monsieur Beak I would agree that now is a ghastly time to be an experienced F/O wishing to apply to RYR

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The reason this thread has developed in the way it has is quite clear - the industry has a problem. The likes of Bealzebub and other experienced folk who have seen it all before many times over, are standing as the voice of warning that the core of this problem lies in the recruitment policy of FR, the concept of today's "low hour" pilot, what he/she will accept as a basic remuneration package, and that the "first rung" of the employment ladder is now considered to be nothing less than a medium size jet.

I have been contributer to this growing issue by joining the CTC cadet scheme and gaining entry to the industry on one of these much vaunted (and hugely expensive) fast track schemes. I joined easyjet in late 2005 and benefitted from a hiring boom during WWW's "Golden age for wannabeism", ending up with a well paid permanent job, and B737 and A320 ratings. All for £60k! What a bargain.

Hooray for me, and I was every bit as pleased for myself as some of the contributers on this thread who are overjoyed at the prospect of flying that nice Irish registered Boeing. I didn't think there was anything wrong with working for free for six months while CTC paid me pocket money and experienced Co-pilots from other airlines sat in hold pools while us freebies jumped the queue. I'd passed all my exams and tests so why shoudn't I fly a big jet with 200hrs, I'd struck lucky and I was obviously a damn good pilot!

Of course the reality was something completely different. I wasn't some young hotshot, I was a brand new, thoroughly naieve CPL with a willingness to work 6 months without leave or pay, and as such for easyjet, a cheap way to fill what was at one time in aviation history an expensive RHS.

Four years of airline flying has given me a bit of perspective, and the legacy of the CTC scheme that I thought to be the only show in town during my wannabe years has become apparent. Prospective pilots' flock to CTC's gates, seduced by the prospect of pots' of money and the glory of flying a jet at 200hrs. All the while CTC use the lucky 300 or so who passed through the scheme during a boom period that probably isn't going to return, each landing a permanent and well paid job, as adverts that you can't go wrong. The truth? Long term it isn't sustainable, unless each year the pilots graduating from its ranks accept lower and lower terms and conditions.

Which brings us back to FR and the rot that has firmly set in at the bottom of the industry. A general acceptance that flying for free, or even paying to fly is an acceptable means of securing a "job" with the likes of FR and easyjet, justifiable on the basis that others (me) have done it before you. That contract work is the norm and you will get paid when you fly and oh, by the way, if we don't need you, swivel. You're a temp after all. Pilots with a decent level of experience in other areas of aviation or at other airlines cannot even get their CV read because they would have the nerve to expect a permanent contract with some job security. All the talk of leaving FR after a few thousand hours and joining an airline with better working practices and conditions is flawed - by this point no other airline will look at you because you are an expense, they want experienced captains or brand new co-pilots who will pay for everything and expect very little in return, remember? Ryanair, ezy are making money from the RHS, why shouldn't they?

So there are those who would say that T&Cs are heading south in every industry, just accept the :mad: on offer at Ryanair, get involved, and ignore the bitter and innane ramblings of people like The Beak.

I would suggest that as a generation of airline pilots, we are going to reap what we have sown. And it won't be pleasant.

[G-AWZK]

I continue to read this thread with an increasing sense of disbelief and incredulity.

I cannot for the life of me understand why pilots - people whom I would assume are equipped with a brain - are so wiling to contribute to their own financial demise as a working group. Considering that pilots must work as closely knit team it seems a little ironic that many are willing to assist in the general downfall of pilots T's & C's.

Why should the most skilled and safety critical groups in an airline have to subsidise a profitable business? It makes no sense at all.

There will of course be those that feel they must justify their decisions, however poor those choices may be.

I can only conclude that Ryanair are cynically exploiting the vulnerable, and based on many of the posts here, the woefully naeive.

[irishpilot1990]

No company gives out free type ratings then does not use the pilot, unless they do in dreamland or a computer game!:suspect:
I am not in a slagging match as you say…sorry if you have taken it that way…maybe the guy you called a parasite took offence to you? :confused:One rule for you another for everyother member?
I am just saying what people are thinking i.e you should stop
Calling people parasites etc
Acting like a know it all chief pilot…
Who really is a frozen ATPL holder
With no job and a “free type rating”…
Claims Ryanair pilots are dangerous and will cause serious accidents in the future!!:DI think your claim that they will cause accidents proves you have some unfounded deep hatred for the company! And that your word is to be taken with a pinch of salt!and hence your posts contribute nothing.

So Actually Beak it does matter how you could be a trainee ATPL pilot with a free type rating, work in an airline and lose your job ALL in period of 18months.
Why??because..
A) The company went into financial issues and dropped you...
B) or they discovered no Captain in their company could sit with you for any extended duration in the cockpit
C) its a big fat lie

[TheBeak]

I think the things you should be asking the pharmacist for are called tampons.:)

[irishpilot1990]

Haha and Ryanair pilots are dangerous pilots… I think you’re the one that needs to grow a set of balls and get on with life…get a job…sure your “type rated and have airline experience”, super intelligent, open-minded tolerant and not vulgar… should not be a problem! You sure have shown the qualities of a airline pilot with your first thread and last…

[P-T]

I've stood back for a few days/weeks and read all the posts from everyone.

But my over whelming thought is that I'm not surprised that "The Beak" is unemployed in the aviation industry (or at least that's what I can make from this forum, it's a little confusing as there is no consistency), your attitude stinks. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I really can't see your point anymore. What was it again? As your goal posts seem to have shifted. Yet you tell other people to "get over it" when you throw some form of abuse towards them but when it's coming back your way it's a different story. Surely the mod's should just delete this thread as all it's good for is giving "The Beak" abuse and giving him a thread to whinge about. If you spent as much time and thought into finding a job or making money, you might be flying a B737 or even be able to afford the TR for RYR!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really, really, really hope I never fly with you.


And for the record, I can't remember who mentioned this point, but I know that a few (10) people have had B757 and A320 rating for free with no bond and no pay cut. I understand it's rare, but it does happen.

[TheBeak]

Well was it days or weeks? Only you know.

My opinion is one that I am giving with the best of intentions. I am not out to wind people up. I am not out to belittle. I am not out to gain attention. I do find it all rather funny though, achieveing some of the cantankerous, ill thought out responses that I am - but that's just a nice byproduct for me.:E

You can get a job without paying for the TR or the selection - FACT. Perhaps not right now, but the right people can and will. The wrong people wont. The impatient wont. And the people who take the easy option wont. If you wont let timing a.k.a. luck doesn't favour you then you wont. If you are a quitter then you wont.

We must accept that there are horses for courses. The purpose of this thread, or any other is not to tear strips off each other but to display our views and perhaps point out something that sits particuarly well with (i.e. helps make the decision for) someone who is a 'horse' that shares our same 'course' or is wondering which 'horse' they are.

Honestly though, no wonder this industry has descended into the **** it has. And no wonder the UK is in the **** it is.

[ei-flyer]

Beak, you're an attention whore. Kindly :mad: off and spread your bitter mucus up somebody else's garden path.

And anybody else who pays this prat any more attention is no better.

[blackred1443]

having read the posts and listened to both sides of the arguement, i have not heard what i consider a single valid reason why one would choose the ryr scheme.not one.the main one being its better than the dole queue,is it though?i dont think it is because you have just spent 35k for the right seat, and in 12 months time someone else will spend 35k to replace you.i wonder what will happen to your terms

this leads me onto g-awzk post above and a comment he made about pilots begin intelligent and his surprise at them paying to fly.why would you pay for a type rating and thereby contribute to that airline being able to offer cheap flights to the costa del chav brigade.do doctors pay for their jobs so the can offer patients cheaper health care?

therein for me lies the problem for me.people who have paid for the tr at ryr recently,why would such crap terms attract you?because of the prospect of it leading to something better.well we have already established it wont,this is clearly destroying and downgrading our profession.i now earn not alot more than a tube drive as a pilot with large uk jet operator, no disrespect to tube drivers but it took me along time to qualify.why, because there is a shed load of cheap labour,who are not only cheap but will also pay to sit in my seat.

i think the real reason why people are attract to pay to fly is very shallow indeed,the reason people accept these terms is due to two things.firstly immaturity 18-25 and their mates think its 'cool' and the second is a complete lack of perspective on the bigger picture.

we have established why they can afford it,mummy and daddy are delighted because their little jonny is a pilot,never mind the fact they are a 100k down paying for it, and he has a job where he has zero benefits

its interesting hearing those who say they are now working for ryr,this is the central issue,you do not work for ryanair.you are temporary agency staff.thats all.temporary agency staff....35k for this.you invest 70k in getting a licence and then 35k to destroy the career you chose to enter.great

so all i have is one question, what do you think the career of a pilot will be like in 5 years time due to pay to fly?infact it it could be a new thread!

p.s.by the way im not just slagging off ryr,this is across the board,very few airline dont not indulge in this disgusting exploitation of the naive.

[TheBeak]

Ei-flyer, thanks for your valid contribution. That kind of post needs deleting. Absolutely pointless, wanton aggression.

Dick Byrne you aren't qualified to comment. You can not judge something until it has happened. Your family members careers are happening by the sounds of it, and have not happened.

I can offer an opinion and an educated guess as to what may happen and my guess is that it wont be pretty for you guys and girls at Ryanair.

Blackred again offers a long, explained response as opposed to the short, sharp, ignorant, rude, vitriolic, spoilt, nose out of joint, chip on the shoulder responses offered by the pay to fly brigade. You are all so weak you are last week.

[TheBeak]

I know you are but what am I?:ok:

According to Ei Flyer you are no better. Welcome to the club.

I am really surprised that you would say that. I think you'll find if you compare the number of posters rather than the number of posts you'll find the majority sit somewhere more towards my side.

[Bealzebub]

Do some of you people ever stop squabbling, name calling, and back biting, long enough to actually listen, concern yourself with the issues in the topic, or even the issues generally? It is like listening to teenagers bickering.

Who cares what you pay for, how much your folks help out, or how nasty the new captains of industry are percieved to be? You are an adult (in some cases,) and the onus is now on you to be intelligent enough to do your own research to satisy your own requirements.

The idea that you pay a "vanity publishing" company a sizeable sum of money to print a box full of books in order than you can call yourself an author is fine. However that doesn't mean that those books are any better than they would have been had you not paid, nor does it mean you are now a commercial author. However that doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make the vanity publishing company a bad organisation, and who cares where you get the money from, other than you and the person who might lend it to you!

The problem is the belief that this type of industry will provide a realistic living for you. There seems to be a large section of people who believe that if they pay to buy their way in, something will then happen that changes the new reality into the old reality? At best it is the idea that you can run to stay ahead of the incoming tide. At worst it is a perception that the rules of the game will all be changed to simply embrace you at a convenient point in time.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what you decide. If you want to pay for a "job" do it. If you are seduced by marketing, then that is great news for the marketeers. If you believe reality will morph to suit your own circumstances, then so be it. The whole point of offering any advice or observation, is that you have another tool and perspective to better enable you to plan and adapt. Use it or ignore it as you wish. However some of this childish banter is truly pointless and completely at odds with the qualities that anybody will ever consider for a position in this section of this industry. I mean left unchecked you would have pilots flying past their destination as they were too involved in heated discussions to prioritise their responsibilities.

In summary, do whatever you please, it is your life. However open your eyes before you step out into the unknown. Most importantly, you are now over 18, grow up.

[blackred1443]

dear dick byrne

whats a sciolist?i presume you mean socialist?i fail to see how please explain?or are you employing im from sciolo!?

i dont know alot about ryr, but i do know a certain amount as i briefly enquired about working for them once.you said a family members earns 3 - 5k per month for the last 18 months.so they paid 35k to join, lets use 4k as an average 4 times 18 equals 72.so when you take out the 35k they paid for the job we are left with 37k over 18 months which roughly means they are being paid 24k a year gross approx.to me this is not something to be particularly proud of,maybe im wrong?thats assuming that no interest on the 35k of course.then pay loss of licence insurance,uniform,recurrent sim,pension, health insurance,union subs...or no wait your not alowed join one of those,saved money there!.pay for your own food at work,teabags,lets not forget a little tax too,maybe some income protection insurance as going sick isnt an option at ryr,no sick pay.great deal isnt it.why do ryr do this because if this individual doesnt accept someone else will,see what i mean now about the whole cheap labour and lots to replace you.not really bull**** is it.this person isnt being replaced as such....why beacuse he accepts appauling terms.

the keep your head down reference please expand.i think you mean act like the model prisoner and dont rock the boat.are you a pilot,do you have much direct experience of the industry.why should a highly trained professional have to keep his head down in such a safety dependent industry....what ryrs approach to crew going fatigued.ummmm let me think oh ya,you dont get paid.or when your ill and dont feel up to work but you need the days pay you cant go sick why....you dont get paid.is this the head down stuff you refer to.this head down crap is just that.dangerous scarmongering nonsense.there had being lots of serious accidents and lives lost due to f/os keeping their heads down,or crews unwilling to rock the boat, try klm 747 in the canaries for a start.

but thanks for giving us a financial insight and proving my point on the degradation of terms and conditions.

[TheBeak]

I hear what you are saying about it being ones choice but it is important that people realise that it is ruinous to our long term careers and incredibly risky to their parents. You may be able to afford a Ferrari F430 spyder a year with your salary (if it weren't for all your 'appendicies') but the vast majority can not, the vast majority can not afford £1500 a month extra after tax should it all go wrong and the vast majority can not afford to lose £170K by the end of all the terms of all the debts. It is about risk management. It is about not taking advantage of our loved ones. I would do anything for my family. My family would do anything for me - even if it was to put £100K of flight training debt and £45K of TR debt and my living expenses throughout the process onto their home. The difference is I wouldn't take it. I am not an impatient, spoilt, self centred little turd. I have patience (to a certain extent). Let me make this clear, I am not saying this sitting in something akin to a cardboard box, I am not poor and my parents could very much afford to do this weak 'process' for me too. I would never in a billion years allow them to though. It is wrong, rude and dreadful. And you as a father and an airline pilot should use your respected opinion to strongly discourage it. I am not meaning to sound like one of the New Labour social controlling brigade who wont let you smoke inside, wont let you eat this and drink that, but this is just wrong. It shouldn't be a decision people are granted to make. It isn't an investment in anyones future other than the short term future of the airline. Some people just wont see the wood for the trees.

Blackred, from the bottom:


*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[Bealzebub]

dear dick byrne

whats a sciolist?i presume you mean socialist?i fail to see how please explain?or are you employing im from sciolo!?


If you could be bothered to scroll down to the bottom of every single page, you would see the definition set out for you. In my previous reply I highlighted the point about people opening their eyes, I rest that aspect of the case.

Perhaps the real question should be, what is a capital letter? How does the construction of a sentence make your message better understood and readable? How is punctuation properly employed? I am not trying to become the grammar police, but in a topic where you are arguing about professionalism and communication, it is self defeating when your message reads as if it were written by a badly educated school boy.

This isn't intended to be simply a "dig" at you, but in order to make the point that, communication, observation, attitude, maturity, thoughtfulness, adaptability, flexibility, skill and care, are all vital ingredients for success in this industry at this level. Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly.

Beak, if you go back and read my reply at post number 149, it save me having to repeat most of it. I am not encouraging anybody to be financially reckless, indeed far from it. However I have no particular problem with anybody who chooses that course of action. As long as they are adults, they are responsible for that aspect of their lives. There is advice and information on offer, if people decide to ignore it that is a matter for themselves.

[TheBeak]

Well perhaps you'd pass that judgement on Irishpilot too, who says your instead of you're, who says of instead of 've and who says a airline pilot instead of an airline pilot just to name a few.

[blackred1443]

bealzebub

while i appreciate my grammar and spelling is not what it should be i think questions my intelligence or professionalism based on this is a little short sighted.also complaining about other peoples name calling and squabbling being immature but yet comparing my level of eduaction to that of an badly educated schoolboy is a bit rich.
by the way your post number 181 paragragh 4 you spelt unforunately incorrectly....not having a dig or anything!i can give you more examples if you wish.

as you put it so brilliantly yourself
Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly:ok:

my apologise dick byrne.....for my ignorance on the sciolist matter, i was up early this morning. learn something new everyday.
mr bealzebub you seem to make alot of sense with what you posted so far but dont lose the run of yourself....people is glass house and all that:=

as regards my professionalism, dont worry i havent had any compaints so far other than you perfect self pops

[TheBeak]

There is advice and information on offer, if people decide to ignore it that is a matter for themselves.

Until it starts affecting other people.

[blackred1443]

this is just the point.the effect on others.i fail to see how someone is an independent adult if they are relying on mummy and daddys money to pay their way.why are these people unable to make it on their own?why do my terms have to be reduce because of these people

[PPRuNeUser0165]

As I have said before, I am not and I know of many other people who are not relying on their parents money! I have been honest with what I am doing and would be greatful if you didn't tar everyone with the same brush! It's never facts just what you personaly believe. I have looked for jobs over and over again, I have applied to just about every company under the sun. For me however RYR was at the top of my list, you can ask my class mates, when asked who do you want to work for it was RYR! The beak is one of the holding pools you are in British airways by any chance? I would believe that someone in that hold pool may be the delusional one? Just my opinion based on no facts! SoundS familiar doesn't it!
My point is I have decided to join RYR after weighing up all the pros and cons based on my personal position in my life at this moment in time, so who the he'll are any of you to tell me otherwise! You are worried about your future and how us SSTR folk may be spoiling it for you, but note you don't give a rats arse what's going to happen to us who haven't flown for two years with numerous IR renewals. Where would that money be coming from....... Their mum and dad, so why's the difference between them spending the money now or over the course of two years keeping up hours and ratings?

[blackred1443]

so in effect dick you know roughly about as much as me then. As what you receive from your family i get through close friends working there.second hand info.correct?

thanks for answering one of my questions but how about the rest then?what is 24k per annum which no benefits worth aspiring too

seeing as im an uneducated school boy who talks rubbish.educate me.which parts of my post were rubbish so far.

i respect you have an opinion on ryr, but so do i.im interested in how you view my response to your post

[PAPI-74]

How will you feel when they drop you after the summer when your temp contract expires?
23K for 6 months work and earn approx 1K per month on a 'Pay as You Fly' basis. May as well pay them for the line training and first 500 hours too while you are bending over the desk boy.
Then while your card is out, swipe for the HOTAC, Positioning, CAA fees, Medical, Uniform, Water, Crew Food, Headset, Surgey for a Collapsed Sphincter, Car Parking, Security Checks and Pass.
Oh ! I think you do already for most.
Great deal!

[blackred1443]

tommyg no one denies you are entitled to your opinion.im merely curious as to how you arrived at your opinion

how did you weigh up the pros and cons and decide that ryr was a good idea.

as regards mum and dad paying for someones ir renewals?they didnt pay for mine so why would that even enter your thought process.this is part of the argument,by involving your parents finances the industry is being destroyed

im not just worried about you spoiling it for me,your spoiling it for yourself too.we are all pilots.we will suffer together as a consequence of these decisions.that means you also.you tell me now where you aspire to be in 5 years time?ryr again

when you were training why did you want to fly for ryr.so out of ba and their varied fleet,aer lingus,emirates with the a380 etc. you wanted to fly for ryr,who charge for the tr,offer no security whatsoever, have a ceo who is open about his dislike for pilots and their profession,no lol,pension,sick pay,holiday pay i could go on.why did you want to fly for ryr

as for calling people in ba hold pool dellusional.how do you reach this conclusion.ba have some serious aircraft orders in, and while its not in the best shape now 18 months time it could be very different.should get beak in then, he would have a free tr, paid from day one, a salary scale thats tops out at £150k,pension,lol,sick pay,great staff travel i could go on.how is this dellusional?

[TheBeak]

I have applied to just about every company under the sun

When? In the longest standing recession in history and in the months that airlines have never recruited during? Oh fair enough then, you have tried.

if thats what your asking Blackred.


Yes I think that is what you're referring to Blackred.

To quote Bealzebub, who has apparently 'got it in one' despite the numerous (not one) posts he/she has made on the subject which have oscillated about a fairly reasonable median (and have added great value I might add):

How does the construction of a sentence make your message better understood and readable? How is punctuation properly employed?

Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

How did I get to my decision? Well I was bloody realistic! Right hand seat if an emirates a380 after 200 hours! Not too shabby! From looking at all the companies who were hiring even 2 years ago, RYR was close to the top, heard any complaint? No! Yes the terms now have changed however they still are alot better than what I am doing now! I have no sick pay I don't get food or water and I am stood up to my thighs in pig crap all day repairing plastic tears! This is why for me who has saved up the majority of the money Ryr is better as it is what I want to do with same terms as what I have been used to most of my life as a student working part time! This is probably why we won't see eye to eye, you have had a taste of the lush grass of sick pay and not paying for everything but for the likes if me I haven't! As I said I pay for everything now including my fricking uniform etc!
The ba thing was me just showing that I too can spurt useless crap! But seriously some if those guys gave been in the hold pool for over a year and won't see any sign of action for a while, let's be honest!
Who is going to pay for someoneS IR renewal, they can't afford the money it takes to keep current plus the fees on a bar mans wage, that's including the first one being in the sim. Just think about in two years time when they have to do it in a plane! Two years wihout flying a Seneca say, you will need a few refreshers plus the test, it all mounts up and unless you were a professional before you started flying you will struggle to find work, just as I did! If they are then living at home with their parents they are then relying on them but just it a different way.

[hollingworthp]

I'm curious - given the number of recruits from Ryr year on year, I don't actually recall a glut of guys coming back on here after 12 months to say they have been let go.

Is this a general myth or does it happen in large volume but the disaffected keep their heads down after the event?

[blackred1443]

sorry wires crossed on the emirates thing you said

'For me however RYR was at the top of my list, you can ask my class mates, when asked who do you want to work for it was RYR'

i thought you meant your life long dream was to be a ryr pilot for the rest of your days,crossed wired.

as regards the degraded terms, just because you have never had sick pay doesnt make it bad.if you trained to be a pilot so you can have a 'career'...then dont let someone degrade your dreams t&c.thats what ryr do.the issue i have that by paying ryr for tr you help support a company that wants to destroy this career...thats all.in five years time i bet you would like a nice job that offers security..will ryr do this?doubt it

as regards your thighs and the pig crap.hope its not a physical relationship!!is this a hobby??!:ok:

as for the ba thing who knows what will happen.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Yes wires crossed! Not a problem! Ofcourse I would love to fly for some big company, however at the moment that's not possible and won't be for a while. One day in the next decade or so!
Take care,
Honestly thankyou for the constructive critisism, it's alltaken on board.
Happy landings.

[TheBeak]

Good man Tommy, well done for taking differing opinions to your own constructively, it is absolutely essential in this game.

[TheBeak]

Well with the clocks going back an hour and only having 'the dole' to support me I can't afford to have the lights on and use the internet. And at the moment I am having to respond to you so, as a result, I am in a dark place.:uhoh:

Believe me, I am a pretty happy person, so don't feel sad.:)

[TheBeak]

Thank you Dick, for the record I am not on the dole, I have been, but I am not now and haven't been for a fair while now. I don't wish it on any professinally qualified person. Thanks for your well wishing, I do appreciate it and I offer the very best to you too. I would be over joyed to captain a Ryanair aircraft, provided I don't have to pay at any point to do so and provided, unless there are no other options, they offer me a permanant contract. Why wouldn't I? They have a huge route structure, a lovely aircraft and a wide and varied work force that would be an interest every day to meet. But that doesn't detract from the extremely high risk situation people are putting themselves into to get a rolling one month contract, for hour by hour pay, no perks, no respect and all because they can't be bothered to wait and because most can get the money very easily from their dearest loved ones. Comparing the trainees from a year or two ago to people embarking on the TR now are two very different things. The two will have very different luck I believe. As I have maintained all along, the economy and the airline industry have huge amounts of inertia and I honestly believe there are a few nasty latent effects heading the way of the low houred FR brookies. No one wishes it. These 'effects' may be modest and tame at first (over a 6-12 month span) for example a basing in Serbia but it will end out with you guys and girls being offered 20 hours a month. Nothing is limitless. If they keep on going, something will give. The bigger they get, the harder they fall.

[irishpilot1990]

I speak for everyone when I say i dont think any Ryanair pilot wants to see you near a Ryanair cockpit.I can only imagine how ignorant you would be to the cadet in the right hand seat.That news story last week of the aircraft with the two pilot pilots fighting springs to mind....:}

[eagerbeaver1]

The beak is a fraud like thousands of other people who post here.

If you want to join Ryanair, then do so. It is your life and you only get one chance.

I have not heard of any cadets being binned after 23 months.

Do not believe half the rubbish you read here about any job.

Beaky - please find something more constructive to do in your considerable free time rather than whip up an argument here.

[smith]

Ofcourse I would love to fly for some big company

Are Ryanair not a big company? I thought they were the biggest international airline in the worl IIRC!

[PPRuNeUser0165]

When I say big airline I mean one that does a vast amount of differing length routes, eg medium and long haul, you have to think about the future and an upgrade in the Boeing family would be ideal! So hopefully RYR will go long haul like planned then there will be no need to move airlines in 15 years or so! Who knows I may even change my mind and prefer short haul, but until I try it I really can't say! Who knows what the world may bring? Do you yourself have any ideas, suggestions or advice?
Thankyou in advance,
Tommy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If the Ryanair deal wasn't £33k and if it led to a full time contract I'd be heartily instead of resignedly recommending people apply for it.

But that is a massive, ten storey, backlit, neon edged IF.


If I put my MOL hat on for a moment my plan would be this.

* Lets start selling a SSTR/line flying product, lets say charge twice the normal cost to allow for a suitable margin.

* If they have a pulse, a license, a cheque for £33k and can pass a basic sim assessment - that'll do.

* We need some fresh blood to occupy the RHS anyway as we're expanding. If we stop then these people can be just switched off as they're just Brookfield contractors.

* If the SSTR/line flying product proves really popular and really profitable then we'll take shedloads and just shove people onto Brookfield contracts and give them such little work they either starve or leave to pack boxes in a factory, or jump off a bridge, or whatever.



So you can see the risk either too many people willing to hand over £33k, or, a slowdown, halt or retraction in the size of the fleet and you've paid your money in order to be a Brooky being offered 2 sectors a month.

That would hurt.



WWW

[TheBeak]

Thanks so much Eagerbeaver and Irishpilot.

As always a good post by WWW.

[McBruce]

I joined FR over a year ago, as a cadet but I went about the whole route sensibly, a full time job through the course of achieving my fATPL, zero finance until I opted for the banks support to do the FR TR, mainly because no other options were available to me at that time. If I didn't go down this route, then I suspect right now, I would be unemployed with a wealthy list of experienced guys ahead of me, most of you will know all about this unfortunately and I do hope you're break comes soon. To me, FR was the best choice in a bad situation and personally I think its better than the one CTC were offering, especially now that their cadets we're basically a packet of orange condoms, sticking with the theme, FR guys being the prostitutes! I suppose you can say, we get :mad: multiple times, but we're not binned... and I'm not saying that in a harsh way, its just the sad reality in my opinion.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well done for making the best move available to you. Whilst FR are expanding, and they are for a good while yet, then its not such a bad deal. It could become woeful in the blink of an eye but then you didn't get to this point without already taking high levels of risk.


The bar just keeps getting higher to jump. Surely eventually nobody will start the run up?


WWW :(

[TheBeak]

Having issued that statement, and knowing several nice people who are engaged upon the scheme - its a pile of ****.

You're paying 50% above list price for a type rating. You're going to be O Leary's bitch for 6 months and then you're going to be shot in the head or told to sign up to Brookfield. Which is kind of the same thing.


Whilst FR are expanding, and they are for a good while yet, then its not such a bad deal.

I'd go with your first opinion WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I like to look at coins on both sides. ;)


WWW

[captain_rossco]

Evening all,

I'm trying to think of any post I have ever seen on Prune involving a person being ejected from the Ryanair camp for any other reason than being sh*te?

Given Prune's recent status as a whinge pedestal for anyone who'll listen, I'd say the chances of a disgruntled RYR pilot advocating the companies unsuitablitly on here would be very, very high.

I'm tooth combing the archives and I can't find a thing..........

Regards
CR

[Flintstone]

Stockholm Syndrome ;)

[blackred1443]

that is a valid point captain rossco

but all these cadets have nothing to compare it too.its there first job.also they all seem quite young so i reckon their expectations are similiarly low.thirdly after spending 35k on a tr and being told on pprune countless times that its a bad idea it would involve a serious loss of face.it would take a brave man/woman to say i cocked it all up against all the advice.

but there is a valid point in what you say

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It doesn't need a disgruntled ex-employee to call Ryanair the employer of last resort. Most commercial pilots would call them a cancer.

I do.

WWW


International Transport Workers' Federation: Ryanair lose another round in court action against pilots (http://www.itfglobal.org/campaigns/pilotswin.cfm)

July 2006
Trade union wins yet another court case

In Ireland, the Irish Times has recently reported that “a High Court Judge has rejected claims by Ryanair that its pilots or their unions had engaged in bullying, intimidation or isolation of other pilots over conditions imposed by Ryanair related to training on new aircraft. “The only evidence of bullying was by Ryanair itself”, Mr Justice Thomas Smyth stated. He described as “most onerous and bordering on oppression” a condition requiring pilots to pay Ryanair 15,000 Euros for training on new aircraft in 2004. The 15,000 Euros was payable by pilots if they left the company within five years or if Ryanair was required to engage in collective bargaining within the same period.

The airline has also been ordered to pay court cost exceeding 1,000,000 Euros to the British and the Irish pilots’ union, following the ruling at the Dublin High Court, as they lost the case.

In addition the Judge also rejected as “baseless and false” the evidence of Ryanair director of personnel Eddie Wilson in relation to setting up the investigation and considered the evidence of Warwick Brady who was formerly with Ryanair in Stansted in 2004 to have given false evidence”

[TheBeak]

The term '****e' is quite a broad term and is a rather subjective one too. What is your assessment of ****e CR? You may not be making your combing as fine as you think.

And tooth combing the archives? If I had posted doing that I'd be told to get a girlfriend/ get a life/ get a job/ I have too much time on my hands. Then again I am not 'in' with the pay-to-fly-brigade.


Most commercial pilots would call them a cancer.


Yup.

Get a girlfriend CR.:ok:

[hollingworthp]

FWIW - IMHO, CR is the antithesis of the 'geek' and from what I recall, his GF is a fine specimen (hope he doesn't mind me saying :ouch:)