Ryanair TR Funding

[TheBeak]

It's not worth a dime mate. Completely irrelevant.

[captain_rossco]

A loyal team mate as usual HollingworthP, my thanks!

Chaps do i sit at the Prune "combing" for evidence to add weight to my stance? Not really. Am I genuinely interested in whats going on
in the world [of aviation], for sure.
I read The Welshman's comments, The Beaks arguements (for and against) and with every point made, I investigate. Why? Because there is rarely smoke without fire, yet there will always be speculative roars from the back benches.

The Beak, would you like to elaborate as to your exact situation, you're incredibly well informed about almost everything, its really quite something.

Get a girlfriend etc........?????? That's a little bit personal.
We should have a PPrune catch up, I think comments like that are best saved for face to face meetings, but you wouldn't, because this is your battlefield, one of led backlit screens and where ammunition is measured in Megabytes.

Do you listen to whats being said to you or do you just skim through it? I'm all ears. The RYR Good, the RYR Bad and the RYR :mad: Ugly.

Enjoy your week troops.

[TheBeak]

because this is your battlefield, one of led backlit screens and where ammunition is measured in Megabytes.


That's a bit presumptious.

I think comments like that are best saved for face to face meetings

I agree.

You seem fair in your response. The girlfriend comment was just a little joke for you on te back of countless comments I receive, so no need to get uptight.

I thoroughly read peoples responses and take them apart if they are drivel and offer support if they are good.

CR, if you are really interested and wish to PM me, I'll elaborate for you but I am not broadcasting my bit-by-bit private life and work life here on Pprune. Feel free.

[G-AWZK]

Just in case anyone missed this gem on another forum...it is worth reading;

A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.

He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."

[BigNumber]

G-AWZK,

A most valuable insight into the commercial doctrine behind these collective schemes. Thank you.

The thread silence is deafening; I hope, and expect, all the potential participants are reviewing their options.

I have often aired a concern that BRK do not offer a minimum guaranteed hours per month. Surely if the contract had any integrity this would be included in their terms. Without this an infinite number of BRK cadets can be recruited, 'milked', and then offered ever diminishing hours as more eager punters arrive.

It is easy to understand the accountants glee, I'd be chuffed too! Prospective workers willing to do anything to achieve eventual employment. ( Even pay to work initially - FR aside ). The job really isn't that great.

I can still see why FR appeals to the many. Frankly I can even understand those 'paying to fly'; what is the remaining option other than impressing their 'laughing mates' with their useless 'Blue Books'. Rather like the losing gambler at the roulette table, if you keep spending it might come good? An immediate return, post training, to a non flying employment will doubtless attract the 'scoff' of 'friends of the family'. It is very British to take pleasure in others struggle, and that has got do hurt when huge sums of money have been 'spunked' on a impossible dream?

Spend more money and this social indignity can be swerved behind the mirage of 'gold bars' and 'white shirts'! Speaking of which, best I go and iron mine!:)

[eagerbeaver1]

thebeak - in reply to your PM, I was hardly being arrogant? I have read your post history and in my opinion you are nothing more than a Walter Mitty.

All you do is post rubbish. Did you join the AAC? Did you attend OAA or Cabair? Did you start your CPL/IR? Have you received your FATPL? Have you applied to an airline? Have you applied to Ryanair? Have you attempted to find a way of funding a type-rating?

I would say no. My point being, I find it odd when someone with no knowledge or experience of professional aviation sticks his beak in.

[Skyhigh86]

It is certainly very worrying that they seem to be recruiting so heavily over this winter, considering all courses after november were axed initially.

So possibly all pilots are FR are going to see their hours being diluted right down, as their hours are directly proportional to their salaries then these are also going to plummit.

However there has been the odd rumours about an order of around 200 new a/c's this autumn. Possibly just some free marketing for MOL (again), also seems that they havnt ruled out airbus either.

I think the one thing for certain is that FR is here to stay and whatever anyone says it is by far the most stable airline out there for pilots. Whether those pilots will actually be earning any money in a few years time is another thing:bored:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm sure it'll all be fine. What could possibly go wrong. Michael will look after you at the end of the day.


WWW

[Halfbaked_Boy]

especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution.

I wonder if the gentleman would care to repeat that after attempting a single pilot 737 op into EHAM...

:)

edit - or even a 747 or any other MC op for that matter.

[Airbusfreak]

how many people think the beak failed a ryanair assessment?? i wanna see a show of hands?

if this is too much how many people think the beak has a cpl/ir..

ps bignumber Irish licences are white.. not blue;):ok:

[BigNumber]

Yes, but it's not the Irish Lads applying always is it!

[Rob1975]

WWW - if only people would listen to your sage words of advice!:ugh:

Unfortunately, there seems a never ending supply of lemmings ready and willing to indebt themselves!

Rob

[Airbusfreak]

haha bignumber that is true bud.. altho here is an interesting fact there is a new irish licence out and its ironically blue/navy a bit smaller and quite nice actually... its been phased out as you are due a renewal etc.. couple my buddie got it.. ironic i know..

rob lemmings willing to indebt themselves?

[Rob1975]

dick byrne - accepted, that may have been a bit of a generalisation.

That must be a first on a RYR thread. :eek:

Rob

[Skyhigh86]

I think the one certainty is that this scheme is here to stay, its been in place for years now. In actual fact its better paid during line training now than it used to be.

Whats also certain is that there will be no shortage of newbies lining up to join, what with the promise of a shiny new jet and a decent salary WHEN flying.

They will also be happy with the BRK contract, never having experienced proper treatment from another airline. When they finally do, it will be because they have left and another newbie will be lining up to take their place.

I am neither for nor against this scheme, what i am against is people charging headlong into this without doing any research and potentially putting themselves into a financial checkmate.

Those paddies are a clever bunch really, you've got to hand it to them.

[TheBeak]

Eagerbeaver, sorry for the late response, I have been busy with work (not as a pilot). You were being arrogant - cutting in to the debate and casting your opinion as if it is the final word on the matter. You clearly have a god complex.

All you do is post rubbish.

In your opinion.

Did you join the AAC?

No.

Did you attend OAA or Cabair?

Yes - I can assure you.

Did you start your CPL/IR?

Yes and finished it.

Have you received your FATPL?

There is no such thing. Yes I have a CPL/IR with ATPL, MCC, JOC.

Have you applied to an airline?

Are you stupid? And how would it qualify me if I had or hadn't?

Have you applied to Ryanair?

Clearly you can't understand words of more than one syllable. I have applied but not done the selection. Would I pay for the TR when I already have one? No so pointless but I applied none the less. Throw enough **** and some of it will stick and all that.

Have you attempted to find a way of funding a type-rating?


Yeah I did this weird thing to fund my training that it would appear most wouldn't have thought of and did something called work.

I would say no.

Yeah you say alot of thing, most based upon assumptions or gut feelings and all of them are throw away, only to be supported by your fellow job buyers.

My point being, I find it odd when someone with no knowledge or experience of professional aviation sticks his beak in.

You didn't make a point, you displayed no evidence whatsoever. I must say though I would find that odd too, like I did with Reluctant 737 and command b et al. Nice pun there, the tax payers money really paid of for your education.

I wonder, eagerbeaver, if you'd have been an airline pilot if you hadn't paid for the job? Two failed BA selections would say possibly not. I don't like to be very personal about peoples performance (believe it or not) but since you insist upon going through my post history and attempting to take me apart, I'll offer the same. Since we are doing assumption, also, I'll assume that you 'were not successful' on the basis of personality and not flying ability - the filter with the large holes in the Ryanair selection according to previous posts and judging by the comments of some of the Ryanair posters who can't help but be subjective in an industry which demands objectivity.

WWW summed it up nicely when he said this little scheme is a pile of ****.

As for the 'who hates the beak' comments, I am surprised they were not deleted - how pathetic.

[irishone]

Airbusfreak Irish license are actually black. Got some new swanky ones! Must say 100 times nicer & smaller than those big plastic white pieces of s***! But it is a joke that CAA license have to be converted. Maybe there is a reason I don't know about - But for now it seems to me it's money money money!

[gliderone]

Ok, I hardly ever post of PPrune but I feel compelled - for some reason. Firstly, I am a RYR cadet, due to start soon and I'm more than happy to admit that. I like RYR as a company and know several ex-Oxford people (yes, I'm one of "those" as well) who now fly for them and they're very happy to do so. They get paid every month, about three times more than I've been earning selling insurance on the phone for the last seven months - and they enjoy it. Fine, it's costing us an arm and a leg to do it, but ask yourself this, what would it cost us not to do it? By the time you factor in the difference in earnings for the next two years and the cost of keeping relatively current (IR Renewal etc) you come to a similarly large figure! The fact is that although I respect the opinions of TheBeak and WWW (the latter being slightly more sane than the former) I still come to the conclusion that it's the best option available - I'm over a barrel either way - and I accept that! That's the point.

The problem I find on here is that PPrune is very bad at supporting people - like captain_rossco said, it's a soapbox for those who see it as their mission to "inform" us newbies of greener pastures elsewhere - the problem is, these pastures are not accessible, so frankly they might as well not be there. There's no point trying to stop us going to Ryanair (and that IS what it basically boils down to) because Ryanair is the only option for us - we do not have a choice.

WWW I welcome your balanced comments, I'm not saying don't have a debate, just please, everyone, for the sake of the hordes of people who may read all this as gospel and be put off from a career in flying as a result, don't post negative comments and dress them up as "being realistic"- that's a subjective term anyway, what's realistic to you might be total boll*cks to someone else - you know who you are. Crew rooms in my experience (mostly student crew rooms!) are wonderfully supportive places where people bend over backwards to help out when you need some help and advice, can't we make PPrune just as supportive?

Anyway, here endeth the lesson. Be happy people, life is short.

[eagerbeaver1]

thebeak - So what are you saying?

I don't have what it takes to get into BA? I clearly do not - and it is quite disappointing.

However ATPL is an informal term widely used, we all know that.

To conclude; you don't have what it takes to even get into Ryanair - so where does that put you on the pole?

I bet you have applied though beaky...

[gliderone]

Well put barnaby and good luck Imperium in joining FR, as barnaby says, it's one of the best places to start out - certainly not a poor relation to BA et al. as some people make out. Well, back to the manuals for me....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

it's one of the best places to start out - certainly not a poor relation to BA et al.

Seriously guys, we are joining Ryanair... go cry somewhere else. This thread is for people joining Ryanair, you will not stop us.

It is absurd to suggest to anyone that letting an excellent flying opportunity such as FR pass by is preferable to accepting it

In no other airline will a Pilot gain as many hours a year

with a stable roster pattern and therefore a life that they can plan.

It is my honest belief that FR is the best place for a flight school graduate to cut their teeth in this industry.

I'll be happy to take my own food to work in the knowledge that the company is operating with no wastages or unneccessary costs



You're being delusional and narcissistic.

And that's being generous.

IF you can hear me over the roaring laughter emanating from Ryanair HQ as Michael reads this thread through tears of laughter..


Firstly, as I have said many times on many threads over many months, the Ryanair deal is the best option as its pretty much the only option out there. I've also said that as long as the airline keeps giving your hours then you may recoup your spending and may get a full time contract and spend your career there.

Secondly, PPRuNe isn't here particularly to support you. You're about to embark on a £33k SSTR and start airline flying so you're barely a Wannabe any more. You've made your bed to lie in and I'm damned if I'm going to feel any compunction about warning those behind you about what a flee infested rickety one it is.

Thirdly, you may be sadly mistaken to think you're buying yourself a job in exchange for £33k. There is nothing to stop you being put onto Brookfield and then given an hour a month, here and there, out of any base, until you get tired of it and move over to be replaced by the next bunch of cheque waiving queue jumpers. Expansion plans ain't set in stone and as a Brooky you've got 24 hours notice to collect your empty water bottles, hand back your ID and walk off into the night.



You're so puffed up and excited you think I'm trying to persuade you to change your mind. I'm not. I care as little about you and your career as Michael O Leary does (believe me, that's bordering on the unmeasurable). What I do care for are the people behind you, often way behind you, who don't really understand where the current state of play is when it comes to the SSTR option. I'm just as scathing of CTC and their marketing sleight of hand as they continue to recruit for the Wings scheme.


Good luck, be interesting to know how your views change after a year or so when the novelty of the jet has worn off. And it will.


WWW

[BigNumber]

They spend; and, along with MOL, I am enormously glad they do. It gets them hours, keeps them away from Biz Jets, and subs LOCO fares to sunny destinations for the rest of us.

I would do exactly the same thing if I was armed with a Blue Book and constantly having to swerve the 'sniggering' employment questions of the 'friends of the family'!

I agree that WWW is quite correct in his assertion that BRK really should guarantee a minimum number of hours in their FR contract. Surely this shouldn't be so hard to do given the rising demand for FR's product. Without this 'safe-guard' an infinite number of 'opportunities' could be said to exist and the hours would ultimately drop as more eager dowry's are paid. It would be rather akin to a pyramid sale, each 'dowry' subs those above, until the whole scheme tumbles.

As already numerously stated. I am am a huge fan of FR and BRK. I hope that all Wannabes get their chance to join, and share in the kudos.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

dick - if they've got the disposable income and want to utilise their licenses then sure they should. If they have to take on yet more debt then the sums are more difficult. Taking the existing debt repayments for their CPL/IR and adding £33k plus interest to them might mean they would be netting an annual loss working for RYR on a BRK contract. At which point you're working for the devil and not even making any money doing it.

Its Hobsons choice.


I just want people to be aware who haven't YET put themselves in the position of making this choice what it is.


WWW

[BigNumber]

Perhaps MOL might increase his 'dowry' prices; after all it would do little to choke the most eager of applications.

Supply and demand :)

[Finals19]

Mol has left anyone who has completed flight training no choice but to apply if they can get access to the money

No, you do have a choice. You wait. You keep your licences current, and yes that will obviously mean financial outlay. You work doing whatever in the mean time. You do your best to find ways of flying cheaply, and there are ways, but they require resourcefulness and commitment.

However, that is unpalatable to many, as they view it as more outlay for no return and no career development (understandable to a point) However, as WWW points out, BRK contracts offer zero stability and if the music rapidly stopped (perhaps the only way it would) at FR, then there would be a pile of very unhappy recently TR'd guys out on their ear. So, IMHO, its a calculated risk either way.

Its natural and logical to want a return on your investment. I am just not sure that increasing your debt burden with zero promise of sustained employment is any more beneficial than waiting patiently (but resourcefully and still committed to the long term cause) on the sidelines.

[BigNumber]

Finals19,

Splendid words of advice but perhaps you have missed the point?:ugh:

Kudos, glamour, and social admiration. Frankly, I need some 'gold bars'.

ALL my Mum and Dads friends know that I was away to "Train as an Airline Pilot". It was a proud boast. Indeed, at many social gatherings I have been questioned on the idiosyncracies of modern jet flying. I have been delighted to elucidate!

How are we going to recover from the social indignity of only flying for fun in a little Cessna from a grass strip. We'll be the laughing stock! It's not like we'd been keeping my outstanding progress at Oxford a secret is it?!

Faced with these stark choices, the requisite funding to elevate my flying into its rightful place has been secured. No bank loans required!

[Finals19]

LMFAO!! :}:ok::D The comic irony in your post brings a smile to my face.

Gold Bars, Di Caprio-esque Airline Pilot scenes and kudos (i.e. professional recognition!) in MOL / FR world?.....naahhhh!

[BigNumber]

The only minor flaw in my otherwise expeditious journey to 'the crew bus', via Wensums, is FR's tardiness in getting me on the TR.

Do you think if my parents offered a premium rate 'Dowry', akin to 'speedy boarding', things might be rushed along? I mean fair's fair. Or is that fare, I just can't tell anymore!

[Skyhigh86]

Just thought that i needed to point out something to those who keep quoting this magic "£33k" figure to everyone.

The course price is 27,500 euros not including VAT(this can be claimed back, process apparently takes 6ish months)

So by todays exchange rate thats £24,874 in FR's pocket not £33k that those certain regular members seem to keep quoting.

I just felt that that should be cleared up, im not here for a debate. I just feel that before people express their views they should do some research.

Skyhigh

[jimmyjetplane]

It's a big help at the moment if indeed this can be done.Does the apply though to cadets undertaking the training at East Midlands or only in Amsterdam?

How long has this been possible for? Seems to me there will be a lot of candidates who went through CAE before, who wern't told about this and spend about 5 grand more than they needed to! I would be well p***** off!!:\:ugh:

Jimmy

[Skyhigh86]

Yes it CAN be done, big emphasis on the CAN though. Its not set in stone and it would be unwise to not budget for the VAT turning out to be not recoverable.

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Ryanair funding. :}
Be it £33k or £27k! You can get a full JAA 737 CL&NG rating for €(!!) 12900. What a fantastic profit FR must have on training!?

[BigNumber]

Ah, but 12,900 Euro's doesn't include any 'gold bars' does it!

For 33,000 Euro's I can get 2 on each shoulder; thats 4 gold bars in total.

33,000 - 12,900= E 20,100

So it's E 5025 per gold bar; the chance to 'strut the airport', priceless!!

I for one think it's high time MOL upped his prices. My Mum says I'll still be coming anyway.

[McBruce]

and I bet my left nut it doesn't include base training costs...

[douk2k]

Does that full JAA Type rating for 12900 also include Base Training, and Line training?? I am sure it does not. Hence the expensive type rating with Ryanair!!

[choppercopper 99]

McBruce......... brave man betting your left nut as I hear you have already lost your right one.

Chopper Copper 99:ok:

[jimmyjetplane]

Big number...Are you being serious here?

If you are, then I suggest you go find a job as a comedian and not a Pilot. This situation is far from F******:mad: funny for most people!!

Jimmy.

[Torque Tonight]

Crikey is this thread still rumbling on? Of course it is. Predictably another Ryanair thread descends into useless drivel. Ryanair and its methods are undoubtedly controversial but the fact is that they are an inevitable reality of the current industry.

Unfortunately, there are too many closed minds and stubborn egos on both sides for any meaningful discussion. You cannot discuss with people who will not listen and almost every contributor to these threads is to some extent constrained by a vested interest in their own circumstances. Additionally, many who venture opinions are so devoid of factual knowledge or common sense that any hope of a worthwhile thread is futile.

What we should be able to agree on is that sponsored and salaried basic training is long extinct and that type ratings have been going the same way for many years now. (If you're bonded you're still paying for it). I think we would all love to be turning up to the BOAC college at Hamble in 1960 fully sponsored and getting paid from the first day we sit in an aeroplane, but those days are history.

Nobody particularly wants to pay for a Ryanair TR but as WWW diplomatically said, it's the only deal on the table at the moment which leaves you with two choices:

Withdraw yourself from the industry for the time being, allow skill fade to set in and hundreds of fresher, younger and more current pilots to join the competition for any jobs which appear in the future - and hope for the best.
Or, take the deal, in full knowledge of the financial considerations, the employment terms, and the risks versus the benefits, and again hope for the best.It is the privilege of each individual to make their own choice and anyone who posts here should do so in the knowledge that they are not entitled to decide on behalf of any other poster, a common mistake, it seems. Whilst the current employment market is an ugly one, an individual has no more control over or responsibility for these market forces than he has for the price of petrol or international exchange rates. Good luck to all those choosing their path in difficult times.

[Skyhigh86]

Well Said Torque Tonight.

Whatever path you choose, please please please do your research.

[smith]

€33k for a type rating is disgusting! It is far too low.

I'd willingly sell my house and all its contents to do the FR TR!!!! So There!!!!

[Torque Tonight]

Thanks for your input Smith. Brilliant.:rolleyes:

Ryanair threads are a little like the threads that occur after after a major crash. Every d1ckhead wants to get their opinion heard regardless of knowledge or merit. Eventually the thread becomes such a bloated monster full of meaningless drivel that nobody can possibly read all the posts from the beginning, therefore people post garbage that has already been said many times, the whole thing goes in circles and becomes an indestructible self-perpetuating nightmare. It's a shame really because there are many valid topics of conversation that become impossible when every thread always degenerates into playground anarchy.

[jimmyjetplane]

Smith...we need your car too please...you can walk to work......help you wake up on those cold early mornings!

[smith]

It is my honest belief that FR is the best place for a flight school graduate to cut their teeth in this industry.


Ever heard of the word SCAB!!!

Any self respecting captain of a non-loco airline who is determined to maintain his standard of life should refuse to fly with someone who has "cut their teeth" with FR. Its like robbing Peter to pay Paul, he's responsible for taking money out of your pocket mate.

TBH all airlines are on the downward slope now anyway in terms of T&C's, so there is no point harping on about it.

It used to be that an Airline Pilot was a bit of an enigma, silver haired, tanned, BBC accent, suave and sophisticated.

Nowadays you see FR newbies with their shirts and uniforms unironed, shoes unpolished, hair a mess and unshaven. Looks like they've been dragged through a hedge backwards actually.

Use to be that a train driver had all the glamour and was every boy's dream, look at train drivers now, more blue collar if I may, piloting an aircraft is going the same way I fear.

[Torque Tonight]

"SCAB", "PARASITES". Some of you guys really need tone down the aggression a bit if you want to be taken seriously.

Ever heard of the word SCAB!!!

Any self respecting captain of a non-loco airline who is determined to maintain his standard of life should refuse to fly with someone who has "cut their teeth" with FR. Its like robbing Peter to pay Paul, he's responsible for taking money out of your pocket mate.

Any self respecting captain of a non-loco airline at the moment is probably experiencing pay cuts, unpaid leave, demotion, redundancy or the very real threat of these. Like it or not, the market evolves, and those that don't move with the times become extinct. In a free market it's survival of the fittest and much to the dismay of the legacy carriers, Ryanair is fitter than them. Just as the striking postal workers are discovering, if you can't adapt to a changing market you become obsolete.

I don't like declining terms and conditions one bit, but I didn't make it happen, I just have to make the best of it. Perhaps your 'self-respecting captains' should all walk out on strike. See how well that fixes your airlines and their Ts&Cs:ok:.

This is now the worst recession since records began. If you think the industry will not feel any effects from that you're living in a dream world. If you think resisting change with some sort of Scargillite beligerence will see you through, you're in for a shock. This is the way things are now. The 'old-hands' who point the finger of blame for the world economy at Ryanair cadets need to think what they would do in their position. I hope the good times return. I really do.

[BigNumber]

I can only hope that the FR Management Team read this thread and register how desperate wannabes are.

DOUBLE THE PRICES; THEY WILL STILL COME! :E

[blackred1443]

big numbers unfortunately your very accurate.easy money from mummy and daddy, impatience, naivety all combining to destroy the industry.

what i dont understand is where all these great jobs will be for the little darlings after they have destroyed the industry

[Flintstone]

Remember the craze for 'investing' in ostriches in the 90's? When I lived in Australia I flew a charter to an ostrich farm with a load of Hong Kong chinese sucker....sorry, customers. I tagged on to the guided tour during which the farmer explained that they could buy a bird for A$20,000 which laid eggs that you sold on for A$2000 apiece. You could also sell a bird for feathers, meat, skin and oil. When I asked the farmer if there was A$20,000 worth of meat, oil skin and feathers in a bird he just smiled and whispered "Nah mate. It's like Amway, sooner or later someone's gunna have to clean the dunny".

Neither Airbus nor Boeing will drop their prices and RYR have their older aircraft, which they can't sell, coming up for expensive maintenance. Guess who's going to be holding the metaphorical toilet brush?

[One9iner]

Flinstone? Are you for real?

Imagine buying a 'job lot' fleet of 737NG's on an agreed, low price, over XYZ years....

I am no RYR employee or want to be. But, before you make opinions about their purchases of aircraft; do some research.

RYR are flying a very new, very large fleet. And subsequently 'could' be in the market to sell 3/4/5/6 year old frames to others, with a profit, years to come; And renew their fleet with minimal cost comparable to competitors....

[Flintstone]

Getting a bit aggressive aren't we?

Neither Boeing nor Airbus will drop their prices (I found that out from my research) and the market for RYR selling on isn't there. If that revenue stream dries up ................... Your research will also have shown you that new aircraft don't stay that way for ever. They need expensive maintenance as the hours build up.


We'll see.

[One9iner]

No foul intent words meant..

My point is that wise buyers, where possible purchase airframes during a dip in price... hence RYRs' post 911 purchase of a long term contract with boeing, for new frames.... at a lot lower price than the market norm.. over an otherwise nearly done deal with Airbus(done over price).. who couldn't meet the price of Boeing... it's well documented.

[TheBeak]

I am with Smith on this, scab and parasite are very apt. Sorry for the lack of input of late, though I have wanted to contribute, work has been consuming unfortunately.

One9iner, the point is aircraft much older than 5 years wont work for Ryanair in terms of depreciation, profit made from resale and operating cost. It is another way in which they reduce their cost base.

[Torque Tonight]

Sorry for the lack of input of late

Don't worry about it - we haven't exactly been on the edge of our seats waiting for another proclamation of wisdom from you. In fact I haven't bothered reading this garbage at all for a few weeks.

It's interesting that you think abusive language is 'very apt' when it's someone on your side of the fence using it, but as soon as someone with a different opinion gets a bit fiesty, you're the first to call foul. No surprises there, I suppose.:rolleyes:

[TheBeak]

TT, thanks for speaking on behalf of everyone. So you think it's garbage and thus haven't read it yet you go on to say it's interesting?

Scab and Parasite aren't abusive, if you look up their meaning they are pretty appropriate.

[Yorky Towers]

Well put 'TT' and VERY correct DB. I think the same, if your opinion does not suit a minority, then expect a barrage of abuse:rolleyes: so why bother?;)

Regards
Yorky

[piky]

Can't quite work out if my latest ban has been lifted? I apologise if I've spoken against your good judgement, and apologise if you consider me a stone thrower! I have now retracted all my inner-thoughts that do not agree with yours..Oh Sir. Please forgive me as I know no better. You are right in everything you preach. You are God.:ok:

Right....All that S**T out the way Andy, can I post again?:E

PS: Forget the High-Horse, I do have a sense of humour....hopefully, so do you?:D

[Callsign Kilo]

What a fanstastic thread. Another example of a posting with that air of contentiousness that turns into a slanging match (see integrated v modular, which TR to purchase?, how many line hours will I buy?, or indeed anything remotely relating to Ryanair!) We can all show how driven we are by our own subjectiveness - to hell with the fact that some poor sod was only asking for an informative answer to a reasonable question. Highjack the thread and tell him that he has either made the greatest decision humanly possible or alternatively let him know that he is a complete and utter bollox! Giving two sides to the arguement ain't permitted (I know, I've been there, completely guilty!)

Talking about being places, well I've been here for 1.5 years now. As you all know it isn't without its issues, however I enjoy it. As do many others. The novelty of what I do hasn't worn away. I am continually learning, continually progressing, earning good money and living my life in the way which I like to live it. I have a well defined career path which has a proven track record. I have watched others achieve a lot in very little time.

Anyway, enough of the positives; its nauseating for the 'haters.' Plus I don't want to be regarded as having an 'agenda.' I will leave all that to the likes of 'Leo Camel Hair' and his band of rose tinted followers! As I freely admitt, this place ain't without its issues. You must approach it with an open mind. Romanticists, idealists and the downright stubborn have all been badly scathed. And by that statement I don't mean those who possess a backbone or a large set of 'cojones' need not apply. Just be aware that you are a mere part of a very single minded behemoth. That's often the very sad and realistic reality.

Some posters on here (The Beak, smith etc) believe we are the root of all evil. 'Parasites & Scabs' being some of the colourful adjectives on offer. And yes, neither by definition are offensive, however the context which you use them are. Maybe someone will apply the word to you someday, heaven forbid!
Yet contentious issues lend to heated debate. I have been of the opinion that Integrated FTOs put pressure on the 'wanabee' to stump up well above the odds for a CPL/IR. Just to get their foot in someones door. When I started out in 2005 I had the chance to go to Oxford. I turned them down, went modular (took twice the amount of time), did a FIC and joined Ryanair. Putting the FIC and some additional pleasure flying aside, I did this all for less than what the APP at OAA, OAT (or whatever they are known as today) would have run me! This doesn't absolve me from the fact that I became part of the SSTR bandwagon or indeed agreed to a contract that doesn't hold much worth to the paper on which it is written - but there you go. My choice, my bed - I'll lie in it! Without it I wouldn't have what I have now. God knows what I'd be doing (it wouldn't be commercial flying anyway) or what I would be supporting my family on?

Flying is a perishable skill, as are the prerequisite ratings and licenses. For 8 months after I had qualified I was totally wound up in a potential job flying the same aircraft that I fly now, out of an airport 25 minutes from my front door, for the same money that I am on now (albeit with a better contract) with an SSTR for nearly half the price than what I paid FR! I had been interviewed and assessed and placed in a dreaded hold pool. And this is the problem (Beware Beak - I believe you are floating in some pool). As time went on I was fed story after story regarding my recruitment. Yet I was assured that I was part of the future plans. I turned down a job flying a B200 and started my FIC, convinced a TR course was looming. January 2008 came - Bamm!!! Change to company structure, personnel and direction. I attended a prearranged re-interview. "Who are you?, what hold pool?, cadet SSTR - no way!, I need current 737 rated crews like yesterday - thank you, but kindly Foxtrot Oscar Sonny Jim!" And there you go. Swam myself right into obscurity. And thats what generally happens in these pools! The company can feed you all the sh1te that they want to! It costs them nothing to have you hanging on! After all the cost is all on you with your perishable skills, licences and ratings dieing by the day.

So I bit the bullet and joined the hoards. Glad I did because there was **** all else and there will be **** all else for quite some time. Sure it wasn't the course that I intended to take when I set out upon this journey. I would be a bloody liar if I said it was! And if you had shown me a better one, I would have been all over it! Yet I'm getting there and I'm getting a kick out of it. I had a fantastic day today, flying to Ciampino with a great skipper and a friendly crew. I had a great laugh, flew a good CDA Loc approach to RW15, made a nice Flap 40 landing, monitored the return leg and went home. Unfortunately I did have to get up at 0345, park my car in a space that I paid for, filled my own water botel up in the crewroom, warmed my own lunch up in the oven and supplied my own coffee (actually I liberated some of the Captain's :p). But heh, ain't life a bitch! If I had stuck to my guns and displayed any sort of moral value and self-worth I could still have been lying in my bed dreaming about flying instead of actually doing it!

[blackred1443]

callsign kilo

lovely post about landing in rome

one question though, what do you think your actions have done to the career you seem to love so much?

this is the root of the issue people have with sstr or pay to fly.it degrads terms bottom line. you are contributing to destroying this career

let me run through the list

paying for your carpark
paying for your type rating
no employment rights as your not permenant
no crew food
no holiday pay
no hot drinks
paying for your airport id
pay for your uniform
pay for your lpc/opc
no duty time for lpc/opc
no sick pay
lpc/opc on your day off
no pension
no loss of licence insurance
not allowed union membership
no basic salary
no guarantee of earnings

where do i sign?!:ugh:
wheres daddys cheque book?

lets not forget the old but 'i'm well paid' chestnut

your not

ryr sstr is destroying this career

[Callsign Kilo]

blackred

I am not having what I posted descend into a bitch-slapping contest. I have been there before. I don't have the energy. And don't construe that as a big 'F' You, what you say isn't all wrong - you have a point, of course. I'm not that naive.

I don't know how long you have been in aviation, though I am judging several years. You probably either got there off your own back (the old self-improver route), via the armed forces or if you were really lucky, sponsorship. You didn't arrive here during the era of the lo-co. This in my opinon changed everything. The SSTR, an iflux of 200hr CPLs expecting the next step up from a light twin to being either an Airbus or a Boeing. The old self improver route was becoming and in my opinion has become obsolete. A real pitty I will add.
The stepping stone from PPL to CPL to FI to Air Taxi to Turboprop to Jet is gone. Airlines aren't interested because they know what they can get. And they have had it for years now. It leaves people with little choice. I would have been more than happy to take the old tried and tested route if it was as justifiable as it once was. I was on an FIC (best investment I ever made in aviation so far in terms of learning and experience) however if I had continued this with the club where I trained, I would now be jobless. I was offered a Kingair job, however the bond was an utter joke, the money was crap, the terms were awful (I know, you will laugh - I fly for Ryanair and all that) and the hours I would aquire each year were a third of what I fly now. I agree, you must start somewhere but progression would have been difficult. Self-improvement is dead. The airlines aren't interested. And I genuinely mean it, it's an utter shame. I'm not some jet snob at the end of the day. I feel I have missed out on a lot.

I started training in 2005. I have been flying in light aircraft since 1989. I have been in touch with the GA world, but through that have watched the commercial world go through some real changes. The SSTR was hardly in its infancy when I decided to go for my CPL. As I admit, I'm now one of its followers and I also said that if you had shown me a better path I'd have been all over it. So what do you want me to say to you? I should have sat idly by, spurned my investment, lost my currency and ratings and placed all my dreams and ambitions on pot luck? While every other sod invested in SSTRs?. I'm not saying thats right. It's crap to be frank. But it's fact!

Two more things - No bank of Mum and Dad for me and being well paid is relative to what you have been paid before. It supports me and supports my family. Thats more than enough.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thats very fair. Things have changed so much in such a short space of time. Plenty of current pilots are pretty ignorant of it and assume things are still much the same as when they started climbing the ladder. Its radically different.


WWW

[Mikehotel152]

Indeed.

But you won't convince people who started out in this industry more than 3 years ago of this fact because they have no contact with the world of recruitment except indirectly through their own Ts&Cs. Hence they hate Ryanair and all those who join the Company.

[blackred1443]

firstly callsign kilo my apologise. i wrote that post after a series of earlies and was knackered, not that its an excuse.i didnt mean to sound so bitter towards you

to provide a little background, i got a really lucky break when it came to my training otherwise i would have had to save for a long time as the bank of mum and dad wasnt an option

secondly i got my licence about 8 years ago, flying for airlines for the last 6 years ish.i have alot to learn obviously, but i reckon i now know a little about how the whole process works

in the last 2 to 3 years the degradation of terms in our career quite frankly terrifies me.its down to pay to fly/trss in my opinion.to put it in context i have poorer terms now than 3 years ago.fact.i honestly think if i could afford to go back to uni to create another career for myself then i probaly would.financially this isnt an option.

their is nothing that i want to see more than you and all your ryr collegues in a position with terms that your efforts in getting to where you are now deserve. the reason being if your have proper terms then there is a better chance i will.you are a highly trained professional who deserves to be treated as such (and you did it off your own back!):ok:

i just dread to think where this career is headed. i wish all these ryr cadets could see what is happening..they claim its for a better job in the future.they are infact ensuring these jobs wont exist.i find it very frustrating.hope i'm wrong. i apologise once more for the way the previous post came across

[stefair]

While I keep reading about Ryanair lowering T's & C's, but by no means do intend to defend their recruiting policies, as I also think it's unfair really, I would like to point out this: I have been on the waiting list for a TP (Do 328-100) with a regional in central western Europe. The deal is new FO's would have to pay 21k euros for the TR but will receive a salary of no more than 1500 euros after taxes per month. I learned their FO's fly about 400h (!) a year. The company is in turmoil and rumored to go bust. Would I go for it if I get the call? Probably not. It's nuts. Cadets, recently graduated from Air Berlin's own flight school (Germany's second largest carrier), had been promised, before they signed the check for a totally overpriced training, jobs on either one of their 320's or 737's with a salary commensurate to that type of aircraft, but instead have been put on Dash-8's, earning them 1,300 euros after taxes per month. Admittedly, the company was generous enough to pay for the TR... :D

I hate it as much as everyone else here, but let's face it guys, the glory days in this job are pretty much over if you don't fly for one of the classics. The Ryanair deal is indeed throat-cutting, but from what I see in the industry, they do pay rather well and you know what you sign up for. Plus, they are strong and surely will stick around for some time to come. One poster here said earlier, they are the future, love it or hate. I am afraid he's right.

I embarked on this career for the love of flying but also with the intention of making money at some point - preferably good money. While having been able to secure pilot employment since I finished my training last year and see my hours rack up since I certainly have not achieved the earning part. Former training buddies, however, who joined Ryanair straight after training (I actually laughed them off that time for forking out 40K), have and ... they are happy, i.e. residing in southern Europe, own apartment, car, paying back their loans... Life is a bitch sometimes. :ugh: