Impounding an aircraft - legalities

[Oxeagle]

Afternoon all,

The hypothetical situation is that a company owes me money (unpaid wages), and it's looking like they could go bust but that's not for certain. They have an aircraft which they own, and which I am licenced and insured to fly. What (if any) action could I legally take with regards to impounding/taking possession of this aircraft? This is of course a last resort, and I hope the situation can be resolved amicably, but I would like to know just in case.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,


OE

[RatherBeFlying]

Unless you have some sort of lien on the a/c, I suspect you would be on very shaky legal ground. A maintenance organisation or individual engineer has resort to mechanic's lien. In a bankruptcy, the trustee assumes control over all assets prior to liquidation and distribution to debt holders. Unpaid wages are usually subordinate to secured debt, i.e. there may already be a mortgage on the a/c.

However if the owner has you fly said a/c to some remote location, there is nothing to prevent you from refusing to fly a/c home until unpaid wages are in your pocket:E

[silverknapper]

Doesn't sound any different from getting his car keys and nicking his car to me

[JW411]

Many years ago (in the USA) our pay checks did not appear on time. One crew "borrowed" a nosewheel from one aircraft, another crew "took temporary custody of an INS" from another and a third crew succeeded in "liberating two mainwheels" from a 707.

The pay checks were delivered the same afternoon by Learjet!

[goatface]

They have an aircraft which they own, and which I am licenced and insured to fly. What (if any) action could I legally take with regards to impounding/taking possession of this aircraft?

You may be insure to fly the a/c but if you take it without their permission it's no different from taking a car that you are insured to drive but don't have the owners permission to do so on a particular day - you're stealing it. You'd be breaking the law, the insurance wouldn't be valid and Mr Plod would be whistling in your ear fairly loudly.

Getting a lien on the aircraft would be difficult and expensive & might not achieve a great deal.
As far as I can see, you have two solutions:

If the debt is less than £5000, you have the option of taking it through the small claims court, but my favoured one (even if the debt is less than £5k), would be to engage a good solicitor and get them to serve a winding up order on the company.
That way you'll either get your cash or have the satisfaction of sinking the bastards.

Either way, pursue them and don't let go ntil you've got what you're owed.

[airborne_artist]

What was your employment status at the company? Employed or self-employed/Ltd co. contractor?

It makes a difference as to which route you can take. Normally an employee/ex-employee has to go via the Employment Tribunal in the case of unpaid wages/un-agreed deductions. If you are self-employed then you are just another debtor who has to go via the courts.

Worth seeing if you can find out who else they owe. It's possible they owe so much that the legal costs you incur will be good money after bad.

[Duck Rogers]

Is the Private Flying forum the best place to be asking this?

[Juno78]

Assuming you're in the Oxford that is in the UK, you certainly don't have any rights to start taking a company's property because it owes you an unsecured debt, and they'd have every right to report you to the police for theft if you did.

Essentially, if you wanted to be able to repossess the aircraft, you would need to sue them for the debt, and then use the subsequent court order and their continued non-payment to apply to court for a charging order over the aircraft, which would put you in the position of a secured credit. If you managed to get this far before the whole lot went into insolvency, you'd still then need to apply to court for enforcement of the charging order - it doesn't give you rights of repossession on its own.

Remember there'll be various legal fees involved at each stage of the above - if the company's about to go insolvent anyway, you're unlikely to see any of that back. You'd be better off trying to negotiate with them to get paid before it goes into insolvency, I would imagine.

[goatface]

Good advice, but don't forget that, whilst not cheap, applying for a winding up order puts the company in a "put up or shut up" position. They'll have no option but to either pay you or go out of business.

Don't mess about with tribunials, do something positive before it's too late.

[rgsaero]

Goatface's advice is the best route in my experience.

I have used the threat of a winding up order on three occasions over the last 30 years as a PR Consultant (I recall it was a Section 221 order - but that may be out of date) and actually presented one to a company just once. You will appreciate that going that route with a client is the last resort!

The effect was electrifying in every case! Almost instant payment - on two occasions in folding money!

Go for it by finding out the Section and making the threat in writing; you can do that without incurring big lawyers money.

[Pace]

I was commisioned to fly to Altrenheim and repossess a Citation jet. The aircraft was on lease from the owner and based there.

Payments were not being made and the owner wanted his jet back. Just before Christmas we attempted to fly the aircraft out for the owner but were stopped.

The owner then spent months in the courts before he successfully got his aircraft back. We were within ten minutes of making it until my co pilot let the cat out of the bag and stuffed us.

Result train and plain back to the UK on Christmas eve which was hell and me and the co not talking :ugh:

Still wondered whether we would have got into trouble on landing for a refuel stop in Zurich with this snatch even though it belonged to our guy? We didnt want to fuel in Altrenheim. It did feel like stealing it :(

Pace

[hatzflyer]

I will tell you what happened to me..I am not suggesting it is right or wrong.
I had exactly the same scenario many years ago except it was not just wages, there were parts (which belong to me untill paid for in full) involved.
I put a 52lb weight attached to the nose wheel with a stout chain and padlock and informed the owner ( a well known flying club near the seaside).
They were not impressed and threatened legal action and even a visit by some heavies. I stood my ground and pointed out that even if they took me to court, it would take months and they would still have to pay me,so they said they would send in the heavies. I phoned the police and reported them.
I then phoned them back and told them that they were about to have a visit by the police, which would look well in the local paper , also it was not good publicity with their students, plus what ever else happened they would still have to pay.
They offered to meet me and give me a cheque, if I removed the weight.I stuck to my guns and said I would remove it when the queque cleared.

25 mins later I had the cash.

I lost their buisness but so what? who wants to work for non payers anyway?

[airborne_artist]

If less than £5k and more than £650 inc legal fees then you can get a Small Claims Court judgement, transfer it to the High Court (assuming they don't pay) and then send in the High Court bailiffs, who will only take cash/card/goods to auction. Concentrates the mind.

[London Flyer]

The following assumes you are a contractor to the company, and not an employee.


A claim for repayment of a debt through the court will be slow. Once you have sent your pre-action letter and have given the debtor reasonable time to respond, you then serve the claim form. The other side can request an extension so that it has 28 days to serve its defence. You are allocated a date for the hearing after that. Once you have your judgment, you then have to start enforcement proceedings if the debtor does not pay.

Time is of the essence when a company is struggling to pay its creditors.

Winding-up petitions do generally spur reluctant payers into action - provided of course that funds are available. Note however that if there are any secured creditors that have enforced their security, those assets will not form part of the assets available on liquidation. The same applies if a secured creditor enforces after the presentation of a winding-up petition: the secured creditor can apply to the court to stay the winding-up (at least in relation to its security) and this is granted as a matter of course: it is illogical that an unsecured creditor should receive payments ahead of a preferred creditor.

But bear the following in mind: Winding-up proceedings are only appropriate in circumstances where the debt owed to the creditor is not disputed. Winding-up proceedings are not the appropriate forum in which to decide disputed issues of fact. A statutory demand which is presented in relation to a disputed debt (or a debt where the company has a genuine right to set-off or cross-claim) is liable to be set aside on the application of the company, and a winding up petition presented in such circumstances will be dismissed.

You can check whether a winding up petition has already been presented against the company. This may be done by a search of the Central Registry of Winding up Petitions by telephone (0906 754 0043).

[flap flap flap]

I would "borrow" the techlogs to the aircraft (or something else they cant do without). You took them home for safe keeping as you were concerned about some burglaries in the area, weren't you?

Forget the small claims court, and any other legal way. You will not get any money from a company that doesn't have any.

I worked for a flight school that went under over 2 years ago, they owed more than £60,000 to staff, students, suppliers etc. No-one ever got a penny.

It doesn't matter how many judgements a person/company has against them, if they have no money or are unwilling to pay, then you won't get a penny. Trust me.

[S-Works]

So why lower yourself to being as criminal as them by stealing property. What ever slant you may put on taking stuff into 'safe custody' it is theft. You become a criminal and no better than those you seek to reprise against.

[flap flap flap]

Tell that to the poor flight instructor who is owed £3,000 by the school.

You've obviously never been ripped off by a flight school.

It's not stealing, it's gaining leverage in order you get what is owed to you.

[FREDAcheck]

It's not stealing, it's gaining leverage in order you get what is owed to you.
Why do you say that? Do you mean that if you're owed something then you're automatically entitled to take something else that isn't yours and you're not owed and you have no authority to take?

Or is this nice theft as opposed to nasty theft?

I don't mean to play games, and maybe it works, as did hatzflyer's 52lb weight.

But don't lose sight of the fact that it's still probably theft. Not paying someone is a civil matter. Theft is a criminal matter - no matter that it's "nice theft" - and puts you even more on the wrong side of the law than them. You'd better be sure it's going to work before going that route.

[flap flap flap]

You're not stealing anything, you just dont know where the (for example) techlogs have gone (maybe they got moved into an old cupboard at the flight school? or in the hangar rafters?). And then your memory might get better when you have been paid.

Wait until you've been ripped off by your so-called honest employer and you can't pay your mortgage/training debts.

[Pace]

You're not stealing anything, you just dont know where the (for example) techlogs have gone (maybe they got moved into an old cupboard at the flight school? or in the hangar rafters?). And then your memory might get better when you have been paid.

Strange how you can pick out those who know and have been there and those who dont ;)

Pace

[S-Works]

You're not stealing anything, you just dont know where the (for example) techlogs have gone (maybe they got moved into an old cupboard at the flight school? or in the hangar rafters?). And then your memory might get better when you have been paid.

Wait until you've been ripped off by your so-called honest employer and you can't pay your mortgage/training debts.

As sad as the background tail maybe, what you are suggesting regardless of how you sugar coat it is a crime. Either theft or extortion, you choose. Both carry severe criminal penalties whereas stiffing you for your wages pretty much carries non and is life I am afraid. Been there and got the t-shirt (obviously from Oxfam as having been ripped off for thirty grands worth or wages could not afford a new one!) but it is all life shaping and you get over it. You don't get over a criminal record. Especially when you are commercial pilot. Try getting a job with a conviction for theft or extortion on the books. You won't even get to fly rubber dogsh*t out of Hong Kong......

[Pace]

Bose

The moral to this is that no body rips anyone off they rip off themselves.

Ie be a doormat and dont be surprised if someone wipes their muddy feet all over you.

I am not saying this in a position of superiority as done that, been there, worn the badge etc including the muddy feet bit.

Aviation is the worst! Pilots need hours, positions etc and sell their souls to get that. I will fly for free! pay me in six months time etc I know times are hard for you running your multi million $ jet!

The moral bit is only fly for what your worth and dont fly again until your paid for your last job of work.
I know of one CPL who flies for £70 a day :sad: Lost the keys for my London flat and was charged £140 for someone to open the door which took all of 7 minutes! We of course are professionals :D

But heck we will carry on shooting ourselves especially in the recession so that someone will let us fly their shiny expensive bit of alluminium :=

Pace

[chrisbl]

Pace,

You know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

So a locksmith is not a professional eh?

Do you know what it takes to be a locksmith?

[Pace]

The one who opened my flat was an ex con used to breaking into places and he used a bit of plastic in a neat way! Know that because he chatted about it. Mind you he is straight now and far superior to any pilot who has worked up to a CPL /ATPL prob at their own cost.

Do you know what it takes to be a locksmith?

Do you know what it takes to make a career in aviation and be a professional pilot? (reading your profile you should do) Anyway I dont really care whether Locksmiths have seven years training and hold a masters degree this was about pilots underselling themselves and being ripped off.

Oh well thats life :ugh:


Pace

[chrisbl]

Pilots underselling themselves is their choice. Forking out large chunks of money to get in that position is nuts too.

I am not sure the travelling public deserve to have their lives in the hand of a so called profession where the "professionals" are quite prepared to cut each others throats just to fly airplanes. It does not stack up.

Try telling the public that you are so desperate to fly that you paid £50k for all your training, worked for next to nothing to log hours as an instructor, blew another £15k on a type rating, all without any certainty of a job and then when a job comes along the pay is little better than pocket money.

There is a bit of a paradox there dont you think?

[Pace]

Try telling the public that you are so desperate to fly that you paid £50k for all your training, worked for next to nothing to log hours as an instructor, blew another £15k on a type rating, all without any certainty of a job and then when a job comes along the pay is little better than pocket money.

Chris you may not agree with it I also dont but your post above sadly is not far from the truth for many and you know that as well as I.

Many have to fund their own type ratings to the tune of $30K with no promise of work at the end. Many sit in hold pools awaiting the call.

Even with the creme de la Creme like CTC you caugh up some up front and then get the rest clawed back through low pay to start once you are placed with an airline.

There is no one I know of who will finance anyone from scratch to right seat. If you do then there would be scores of would be pilots who would love to know you and your leads.

Pace

[stickandrudderman]

Back to the original subject:
All I will say is this:
Taking the correct legal course of action is tedious and mostly just ends up costing you more money with no return.
Finding some other way of applying leverage WITHOUT INCRIMINATING YOURSELF is the trick;).
I have won several judgements in my favour and not one has ever been satisfied in full.
Several other debtors have successfully been parted with their money in very short time.
You decide.

[wsmempson]

"Several other debtors have successfully been parted with their money in very short time.
You decide."

Doesn't a mutual acquiantance use a red-headed kick-boxing champion (the ginger ninja) to discuss civilised payment-plans with serial non-payers?