When was the RAF at its most capable?

[Madbob]

My time in the RAF spanned 10 years from 1979 which co-incided with the last 10 years of the "cold war"....

Even so, this period was one of cuts and a continuous reduction in the numbers of service personnel and bases. My speculation is that 1974/5 was probably when the RAF was at its peak and ever since we have been growing weaker in spite of what the government says.

Whilst technology has improved, and smart weapons, UAV's, missiles with multiple warheads, NVG's etc. have improved the "hitting" power the sheer reduction in personell and not having sufficient platforms means that we can no longer project, let alone sustain, the capabilities we once had.

The saddest part in all of this is the fact that the reduction in our military capability has not been matched by a similar reduction in the threats that we face in what is subjectively a more unstable world.

Is this just a rose-tinted view, or were things so much better in the 1970's compared to today? It would be interesting to know what RUSI and Staff College experts have to say.....we would be hard pressed to cope with a flare-up of the NI Troubles and a resurgence of terrorism at "the back door" let alone deal with another FI Conflict....

MB

[VfrpilotPB/2]

IMHO 1939 to 1959

Peter R-B
Vfr

[Gainesy]

Roughly, 1970-75 gets my vote, lots of still very potent legacy stuff plus shiny new Harriers, Jags, Phantoms, Buccs, Nimrods and Hercs. Rotary, Puma and Sea King. Must be others.

[minigundiplomat]

Up to the 90's!

During the 90's, accountants ran the RAF.

During the 00's, politicians have run the RAF.

[Jackonicko]

1) In absolute terms (how much destruction the force could wreak, coupled with capability of platforms, etc.) 1988-ish - before the Cold War cuts, before the withdrawal of WE177, and when the Tornado was still cutting edge and credible.

2) Relatively speaking, you'd draw a different conclusion.

1955-ish.

Prior to the massive down-sizing of RAF Germany, disbandment of the 21 Squadrons of the RAuxAF, and the reductions in home-based fighters. Bomber Command was looking to get the V-bombers, and had a vast force of Canberras, which were still more than capable of evading interception, and delivering a 'hammer blow', albeit with US supplied nukes.

I'm puzzled for the votes for the early 70s - surely nothing had improved since the mid-60s, and there had been significant reductions in force structure.

[dead_pan]

1st April 1918. Downhill ever since.

[sisemen]

The day after I left :}

[Tiger_mate]

Mingundiplomat has hit the nail firmly on the head. Whilst Defence cuts of the sixties and even the infamous beating of '75 had a profound effect, it is quite possible that we were overmanned and could afford the housekeeping.

The blank cheques dissapeared with GW1 and the overswing of new found budgets promoted a 'Cannot do' culture, alien to military ethos. Blunties rapidly became the master-race and the front line became (wrongly) insignificantly secondary to Pounds, Shillings and Pence. There should be no surprise that the present day loss of life is attributed rightly or wrongly to insufficient equipment for both personnel and task.

One needs to be aware that few contributers to Pprune have experience of the military prior to the mid seventies, and those that do are often overwhelmed with the nostalgia of once belonging to an armed force built upon a pride difficult to find nowadays. Apologies if that sounds over patronising; perhaps the sentiment could have been worded better.

[Madbob]

How about as of summer of 1974.......:ok:

35 different aircraft types.....:eek:

1 Sqn Wittering – HS Harrier
2 Sqn Laarbruch – McD Phantom
3 Sqn Wildenrath – HS Harrier
4 Sqn Wildenrath – HS Harrier
5 Sqn Binbrook – BAC Lightning
6 Sqn Coningsby – McD Phantom
7 Sqn St.Mawgan – BAC Canberra
8 Sqn Lossiemouth – Avro Shackteton
9 Sqn Akrotiri – HS Vulcan
10 Sqn Brize Norton – BAC VC.10
11 Sqn Binbrook – BAC Lightning
12 Sqn Honington – HS Buccaneer
13 Sqn Luqa – BAC Canberra
14 Sqn Bruggen – McD Phantom
15 Sqn Laarbruch – HS Buccaneer
16 Sqn Laarbruch – HS Buccaneer
17 Sqn Bruggen – McD Phantom
18 Sqn Gutersloh – Westland Wessex
19 Sqn Gutersloh – BAC Lightning
20 Sqn Wildenrath – HS Harrier
21 Sqn Andover – DH Devon
22 Sqn Thorney Island – Westland Whirlwind
23 Sqn Leuchars – BAC Lightning
24 Sqn Lyneham – Lockheed Hercules
26 Sqn Wyton – DH Devon
27 Sqn Scampton – HS Vulcan
28 Sqn Kai Tak – Westland Wessex
29 Sqn Wattisham – BAC Lightning
30 Sqn Lyneham – Lockheed Hercules
31 Sqn Bruggen – McD Phantom
32 Sqn Northolt – HS Andover, HS125, Westland Whirlwind
33 Sqn Odiham – Westland Puma
35 Sqn Akrotiri – HS Vulcan
36 Sqn Lyneham – Lockheed Hercules
39 Sqn Wyton – BAC Canberra
41 Sqn Coningsby – McD Phantom
42 Sqn St.Mawgan – HS Nimrod
43 Sqn Leuchars – McD Phantom
44 Sqn Waddington – HS Vulcan
45 Sqn Wittering – HS Hunter
46 Sqn Thorney Island – HS Andover
47 Sqn Lyneham – Lockheed Hercules
48 Sqn Lyneham – Lockheed Hercules
50 Sqn Waddington – HS Vulcan
51 Sqn Wyton – BAC Canberra, HS Nimrod
53 Sqn Brize Norton – Short Belfast
54 Sqn Coltishall – BAC Jaguar
55 Sqn Marham – HP Victor
56 Sqn Akrotiri – BAC Lightning
57 Sqn Marham – HP Victor
58 Sqn Wittering – HS Hunter
60 Sqn Wildenrath – Hunting Pembroke, HS Andover
70 Sqn Akrotiri – Lockheed Hercules, HS Argosy
72 Sqn Odiham – Westland Wessex
84 Sqn Akrotiri – Westland Whirlwind
85 Sqn West Raynham – BAC Canberra
92 Sqn Gutersloh – BAC Lightning
98 Sqn Cottesmore – BAC Canberra
99 Sqn Brize Norton – Bristol Britannia
100 Sqn West Raynham – BAC Canberra
101 Sqn Waddington – HS Vulcan
103 Sqn Tenagh – Westland Wessex
111 Sqn Coningsby – McD Phantom
115 Sqn Cottesmore – HS Argosy
120 Sqn Kinloss – HS Nimrod
201 Sqn Kinloss – HS Nimrod
202 Sqn Leconfield – Westland Whirlwind
203 Sqn Luqa – HS Nimrod
206 Sqn Kinloss – HS Nimrod
207 Sqn Northolt – DH Devon, Hunting Pembroke
208 Sqn Honington – HS Buccaneer
214 Sqn Marham – HP Victor
216 Sqn Lyneham – DH Comet
230 Sqn Odiham – Westland Puma
360 Sqn Cottesmore – BAC Canberra
511 Sqn Brize Norton – Bristol Britannia
617 Sqn Scampton – HS Vulcan

226 OCU Coltishall – BAC Lightning [soon to be Jaguar]
228 OCU Coningsby – McD Phantom
229 OCU(TWU) Brawdy – HS Hunter
230 OCU Scampton – HS Vulcan
231 OCU Cottesmore – BAC Canberra
232 OCU Marham – HP Victor
233 OCU Wittering – HS Harrier
236 OCU St.Mawgan – HS Nimrod
237 OCU Honington – HS Buccaneer
240 OCU Odiham – Westland Wessex, Westland Puma
241 OCU Brize Norton – Belfast, Britannia, Comet and VC.10 as required
242 OCU Thorney Island – HS Andover, Lockheed Hercules

1 FTS Linton-On-Ouze – BAC Jet Provost
2 FTS Church Fenton – DHC Chipmunk, Bulldog
3 FTS Leeming – BAC Jet Provost
4 FTS Valley – HS Gnat, HS Hunter
5 FTS Oakington – Vickers Varsity, Jetstream
6 FTS Finningley – HS Dominie, Varsity, BAC Jet Provost

CFS Little Rissington, Kemble and Ternhill

5 MU Kemble
19 MU St.Athan
23 MU Sydenham
27 MU Shawbury
32 MU St.Athan
60 MU Leconfield
71 MU Bicester
103 MU Akrotiri
431 MU Bruggen


PS. Thanks to GeeRam for his original post....

MB

[1.3VStall]

Madbob,

The memories stirred up by your post brought tears to my eyes!

I, too, was going to suggest 1974 as that was the year we were all wheeled in to the Station Briefing Room to be informed by the Staish of the planned British withdrawl from East of Suez. For the remaining 20-odd years of my service all I saw were cuts, drawdowns, retrenchment, downsizing, civilianisation, overstretch, etc, etc.

Looking at your list it is incredible to to see what has been lost forever. I know they say that nostalgia isn't what it used to be, but when you look at that list of aircraft, squadrons and RAF Stations we were a worldwide force to be reckoned with in those days. (And we had fun too!).

[forget]

I, too, was going to suggest 1974 as that was the year we were all wheeled in to the Station Briefing Room to be informed by the Staish of the planned British withdrawl from East of Suez.

Did it happen twice? :confused:

[Low Flier]

1968. The only year since the establishment of the Royal Air Force in which not one single British serviceman was killed in action anywhere in the world.

Our politicians had been wise enough not to get us suckered into The American War in Vietnam and Norn Iron hadn't yet kicked off.

The Phoney War against the Russian Bear had enabled the acquisition of some serious kick-arse kit, such as Vulcan, Lightning and the 'toom, but we had no-one fighting against us. (Ok, a few sand bunnies in Oman and Aden, and the odd jungle bunny in Sarawak, but nothing to worry about)

Oh yes, and we had buckets of sunshine which didn't need some code to be issued by the politicians, just use a screwdriver to open a couple of Dzus fasteners, then use a bicycle key to arm to blighter and then turn a couple of knobs to select airburst or groundburst and choose the desired yield.

Marvellous! Happy days!!

[Wensleydale]

I'm puzzled for the votes for the early 70s - surely nothing had improved since the mid-60s, and there had been significant reductions in force structure.

Don't forget the AEW Shackleton came along in 1972!:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

How about as of summer of 1974.......:ok:

When Fg Off BEagle had just finished the Wings course. Yes, the RAF looked pretty impressive then, but the old timers still talked about the pre-Sandys :yuk: era.

Then came the cuts........which have never stopped.

But we did still have over 30 stations more than today - in the UK alone...:{

[philrigger]

1968. The only year since the establishment of the Royal Air Force in which not one single British serviceman was killed in action anywhere in the world.

I think you will find that the correct phrase is "since the end of the second world war.".


Phil.

[izod tester]

The list for 1974 doesn't include The Queen's Flight at Benson.

[Forward10back11]

Sometime before JPA

[Cornerstone958]

What about all the RAF Hospitals.
Wegberg
Akroteri (Still there)
Ely
Nocton Hall
Halton
Wroughton
Cosford
Supporting all Trades Branches & Families.
Long gone.:{
CS

[Madbob]

I could also have included the many RAF Hospitals we used to have......Wegberg, Nocton Hall, Ely, Wroughton, Catterick, Halton are all gone.:(

Only Akritiri I think survives on a joint RAF/Army basis. We sure could do with them now! :ugh:

MB

[threeputt]

Cornerstone, don't forget Rinteln (had my tonsils taken out there).

3P:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

Cornerstone, don't forget Rinteln (had my tonsils taken out there).


Indeed, I had a rather unhappy week there with glandular fever in 1990.

[Low Flier]

I think you will find that the correct phrase is "since the end of the second world war.".

Nope. 1968 was the only year in the whole of the 20th century during which not one single British serviceman was killed in action. I don't suppose there was such a year in the 19th or 18th centuries either.

There hasn't been such a year in the 21st century, yet, and the way the Afghan nonsense is going it really doesn't look like we'll have such a year for a long time.

[Green Flash]

Whilst agreeing that the mid 70's is a strong contender, may I propose the late evening of 5th June, 1944 please? The RAF had the wherewithall and intent to give Adolfs lads a Sound Thrashing. Both qauntity and quality were in play; piston was reaching it's zenith, jets were evolving, weapons and tactics had reached a high level of maturity, manpower was massive. We had a close relationship with our allies and after succesfully seeing off the Beastly Hun a few years earlier - it was payback time.

[Squirrel 41]

1974 - interesting. But two things strike me - firstly, we need to include SAM Sqns and the RAF Regt Field Sqns - and second, even back in those halcyon days, the amount of strategic transport and rotary wing transport was inadequate for expeditionary warfare - showing that the current unbalanced force structure is nothing new.

The next question is what is (a) the "right" size for today's RAF, if we were spending 30% more than we are now and (b) within the same amount of cash - ie trade offs - what would the appropriate front line look like?

S41

[BEagle]

"....even back in those halcyon days, the amount of strategic transport and rotary wing transport was inadequate for expeditionary warfare...."

Perhaps because then we were rather more interested in defending UK interests than following in American footsteps wherever they chose to play world policeman?

[mad_bob]

Eeer! Madbob ave you harf inched me Moniker...:suspect:

[BBadanov]

I would go for the 1970s.

Re Jacko's quote: "before the withdrawal of WE177, and when the Tornado was still cutting edge and credible"

Cutting edge and credible??

"Bombs in a bucket,
25 miles from base"....as the song goes!

[rockape2k7]

Cornerstone, don't forget Rinteln (had my tonsils taken out there).

3Phttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


My lad was born there... only came back to me when I read that... aluminium...:eek:

[Al R]

MGD: Up to the 90's! During the 90's, accountants ran the RAF. During the 00's, politicians have run the RAF.

Words from that era.. 'New Management Strategy', and 'Moritorium'. From the 80s whenever you went to stores: 'FOFAD' (Fuc4 off - fire at Donnington).

I suppose in 2029, 2009 will seem like golden days. Depressing thought that. :(

[Pontius Navigator]

If you want absolute power you are looking at 1964 before the Valiants were withdrawn - 4 x Victor 1a, 2 x Victor 2, 3 x Vulcan 2 BS, 3 x Vulcan 1a, 3 x Vulcan 2, Valiant PR, Tanker and TBF. Runs out at about 18 V-force ac on QRA armed with megaton weapons. Countless Canberra sqns in Germany also on QRA.

How do you really stipulate one peak in 90 years? There are many peaks and troughs.

Obviously immediately at its formation it was a most powerful force which, with peace, immediately started to decline.

A peak can then be considered in the 20s and 30s with air policing in Africa and Mesoptamia.

In parallel with this peak was the decline in adherence to biplane technology.

At the same time the air base design, in particular the hangar designs and base locations was a peak.

RAF strength in 1938-42 was also a trough until the massive buildup of the TAF, Bomber, Coastal and Fighter Commands.

How do you measure the WW2 highs of 1944-45 with the 1960 highs of nuclear deterence or the precision capability of the few in 2000-2009?

[Madbob]

I started this thread but would question the RAF's ability to project and sustain the air power it once had. 1970 - 1976 is my best guess as when the RAF could really spread its wings across the world. Not only were there "teeth" but also air transport assets to support deployed ops and an MU infrastructure to make repairs and mods to ac in service. (We could have done with that kind of capability to return a certain E3 to service sooner recently.)

We also didn't have all our eggs in one basket. Harriers, Jags and Buccs had the attack roles, Phantoms and Lightnings had air defence (backed up by Hunters for point defence) and Canberras had recce and ECM duties. The V force was still pretty potent and the Nimrod fleet (46 airframes) was supreme in ASW. The Herc and VC10 fleets were still pretty youthful and not totally past their sell by dates as now. We even still had Belfasts, Argosys, Andovers and Britannias not to mention Devons, Pembrokes and HS125s for light communications. There might still have been the odd Twin Pioneer which was pretty useful in certain sandy places....

Pumas were in the inventory from 1971 and the Wessex was also doing excellent work on the SH side. Granted, medium/heavy lift assets were missing.


Nowadays, one gets the impression that a commander before deciding to launch a mission against Terry has to determine what the mission will cost, and get the Treasury to agree to paybefore take off!:ugh: Can't begin to imagine how we can win a war like that, or imagine Churchill telling to Montgomery to use fewer shells in the barrage that preceded the battle of el Alamein.....

MB

[Pontius Navigator]

the RAF's ability to project and sustain the air power it once had. 1970 - 1976 is my best guess as when the RAF could really spread its wings across the world. Not only were there "teeth" but also air transport assets to support deployed ops and an MU infrastructure to make repairs and mods to ac in service.

Good point. However in 1964, under Plan Addington, Coastal, Transport, Bomber and Fighter Coommands, together with Canberras from RAF G, all flowed through NEAF and MEAF to reinforce FEAF in Confrontation with Indonesia. A fair chunk of inventory was already in theatre as FEAF and included Javelin, Canberra, transport and helicopter sqns.

We also didn't have all our eggs in one basket. [in 1970 - 1976] Harriers, Jags and Buccs had the attack roles, Phantoms and Lightnings had air defence (backed up by Hunters for point defence) and Canberras had recce and ECM duties. The V force was still pretty potent and the Nimrod fleet (46 airframes) was supreme in ASW. The Herc and VC10 fleets were still pretty youthful and not totally past their sell by dates as now. We even still had Belfasts, Argosys, Andovers and Britannias not to mention Devons, Pembrokes and HS125s for light communications. There might still have been the odd Twin Pioneer which was pretty useful in certain sandy places....

Pumas were in the inventory from 1971 and the Wessex was also doing excellent work on the SH side. Granted, medium/heavy lift assets were missing.

But by then we were already placing all the baskets in UK and Europe.


Nowadays, one gets the impression that a commander before deciding to launch a mission against Terry has to determine what the mission will cost, and get the Treasury to agree to paybefore take off!:ugh: Can't begin to imagine how we can win a war like that, or imagine Churchill telling to Montgomery to use fewer shells in the barrage that preceded the battle of el Alamein.....MB

Actually having studied the Confrontation, similar arguments applied then too with MOD requesting and the cabinet finally approving deployment. Even after the 'off' we were held back in Aden as they belatedly realised the FEAF bases were becoming overloaded and vulnerable to attack.

So for out and out power projection the 1960s was one pinacle. In terms of modern jets the 1970s was clearly a contender wit aircraft still ordered in significant numbers.

[BEagle]

Peak numerical strength of the V-force was probably Dec 62 - Mar 63 with some 22 squadrons of V-bombers.

Plus another 20 Thor missile sites, each with 3 missiles per site.

The emphasis back then was on nuclear deterrence and the air defence of the UK as well as other UK interests including BAOR.

This 'agile' or 'expeditionary' bolleaux is a more recent phenomenon whose morality many people are beginning to question. Even in 1984 when I started on the VC10K, we didn't have any mission requirements involving offensive operations - although one did raise its head later and we were somewhat surprised at being involved in something other than purely defensive activity.

[Pontius Navigator]

Peak numerical strength of the V-force was probably Dec 62 - Mar 63

Thank you. I have turned the rest of your post around reply.

Even in 1984 when I started on the VC10K, we didn't have any mission requirements involving offensive operations - although one did raise its head later and we were somewhat surprised at being involved in something other than purely defensive activity

Though we did walk a tight rope at Suez which was arguably a war of choice. Later, in the mid-late 60s we planned an offensive operation against a 3rd party country. Ostensibly it would have been a self-defence operation with 'clear' military and political objectives and justification, though I could not see it at the time.

This 'agile' or 'expeditionary' bolleaux is a more recent phenomenon whose morality many people are beginning to question.

I suspect that it is smoke and mirrors and a necessary replacement for the pre-70s permanent bases between UK and the Far East. As always, active operations are more expensive that effective deterence.

[The Gorilla]

IMHO, right up to the point the Tories brought in NMS - New Management Strategy. From that day on the Stn Cdr and his cohorts had to account for every bean they spent, every department became acutely aware of how much everything cost. That was the beginning of the end and broadly coincided with options for change, front line first etc etc.
:ugh:

[sisemen]

IMHO, right up to the point the Tories brought in NMS - New Management Strategy. From that day on the Stn Cdr and his cohorts had to account for every bean they spent, every department became acutely aware of how much everything cost. That was the beginning of the end and broadly coincided with options for change, front line first etc etcIMHO, right up to the point the Tories brought in NMS - New Management Strategy. From that day on the Stn Cdr and his cohorts had to account for every bean they spent, every department became acutely aware of how much everything cost. That was the beginning of the end and broadly coincided with options for change, front line first etc etc.

.....and that was the point at which I quit! Having been forced into the position of bringing in NMS to a not so secret base close by the Thames I could see the writing on the wall. And so it came to pass :ugh:

1976 - 79 the RAF was pushing over 100,000 strength with new aircraft types appearing all over the place - and still most of the old ones (V Force etc) still in place. Golden years ... but try telling that to the youth of today; they'll never believe you ......:ok:

[Tiger_mate]

but try telling that to the youth of today; they'll never believe you

I once did tell that to student aircrew in response to being questioned on changes good and bad over the years. I normally mention the high morale despite weekly Tacevals which in turn demonstrated the rapport and bond between air and ground trades in achieving a specific objective laid down by NATO. Freezing German winters did little to dampen spirits, and work hard / play hard meant what it said. The answer I got which is quite reasonable though in some ways quite sad when discussing the present day was: "We do not know anything differant".

[Hamish 123]

While the 70's & early 80s RAF certainly had a great number of very capable aircraft, didn't the Falklands War reveal that there was a severe lack of weaponry to hang off pylons? Wasn't it the case that the Black Buck raids required every single available 1,000 lb iron bomb in the RAF's inventory? And that the the USA supplied the modern sidewinders - while presumably the Phantom QRAs were still using the old models?

Apart from the nuclear capability, could the RAF of that period have fought a sustained conventional war (unlikely though that prospect would have been), with such small stocks of modern conventional weapons?

[tarnish26]

Surely the 1940's....the last time we stuffed anyone that was a real threat....if it was not for the young boys flying in those days none of us would be using pprune today!!!

[anotherthing]

The '74 list is sad reading indeed when looked at levels today.

Maybe a more intersting question and comparison would be 'When was the UK armed forces as a collective at their most capable'?..



But we did still have over 30 stations more than today - in the UK alone...
Doesn't mean that much if by cutting some stations we gained more capable aircraft... How many Tornados is one Typhoon worth, for instance?

Obviously if you can throw huge numbers at something like the Chinese do, then quality can be dropped slightly as attrition rates will not count for as much (in the eyes of the politicians), but when you're cash strapped as we are in the UK surely cutting bases is better if (a big if), the money is spent on superior equipment?

There must be a position somewhere in the middle of sheer numbers and quality of training (which the UK excels at) and equipment that is the optimum mix when talking about capability as a force.

[soddim]

Perhaps capability needs to be correlated with the threat at the time to determine the ability to cope. In that case the 1940 period was a cliffhangar and our air force was barely capable of victory - that it was achieved is more a tribute to personnel than capability.

In the immediate post-war years and pre-cold war days we still had a very potent force but very little threat - maybe that period is a contender.

We would have lost a conventional cold war and, although nukes added to our capability, nobody wins a nuclear war.

After the fall of the Berlin wall we still had hitting and defensive power and a fair capability in all roles - certainly enough to stuff any opposition.

In my view capability related to threat was highest in the 90s and Gulf War 1 demonstrated how capable air power was when faced with such a weak threat.

[Shackman]

Dare I suggest it was the mid to late 60's when conscription had finished and we were an all 'volunteer' force. But mostly because we had a command structure that supported the military task - not just the 'front line' commands - Fighter, Bomber, Coastal, Transport - as well as FEAF, MEAF, RAFG, but also Signals, Maintenance, Training, as well as some I'm sure I must have missed, and all this came under the 'Air Ministry'. Each Command had its own AOC who had (generally) come up through that very command, and had intimate knowledge of the problems and would not take kindly to 'wool pullling' by his staff; in addition almost all the senior officers had served during WWII and thanks to that experience really were 'commanders and leaders'. They worked tirelessly to try to ensure 'their' guys had the best equipment possible.

This meant that the 'front line' received considerably more support and whilst we may not have always had the best/newest equipment - the treasury was still in charge of procurement - we also had a lot more confidence in what we were tasked to do and in our chain of command.

With the advent of Strike Command we entered an era of more and more centralised control by people who did not necessarily know the specifics of the individual task and who relied on staff officers who were also more and more removed from the front line and who frequently also had limited knowledge of what they were 'staffing'. Yes, we had a more 'rounded' Air Force and a lot of 'jack of all trades' - I leave you to finish the quotation.

Not only that but there was also considerably more 'jointery' between the 3 services than there is now, despite it being the modern buzzword. The RN aviation side was considered a potent force and the Coastal assets worked closely with them, with memories of the battle of the Atlantic still fresh in a lot of minds. Equally the AAC was seen as the front line of the rotary world, and SH was just that - Support (albeit the Whirlwind was pretty limited but the Belvedere/Wessex/Puma were all coming on stream) as well as a lot of Tac Support in both transport and ground attack. Whilst there was a lot of inter-service rivalry and banter there was very little of the constant back biting we get now - which to me seems driven almost entirely from the top by the budgetary battles being fought at MOD levels - to the point of almost deliberately undermining 'other service' projects in the hope of getting more money for one's own pet project. In addition with the introduction of instant comms around the world commanders at MOD/Air want to control every level, rather than leaving it to the people at the coal face.

Aircraft on their own did not make us 'most capable' - it was the entire structure from the AC in SHQ upwards who were made to feel part of the whole force. But I will admit it seemed much more capable in all roles when I joined than it does now. No doubt it was much more inefficient but at least there was a bit of 'fat' to deal with the unexpected.

Edited to add - I did of course mean NEAF (the usual finger trouble) - and my apologies to all the other commands I missed out, but I went through FTC , Coastal (never seemingly referred to as CC), FEAF, STC, NEAF, back to STC, JHC, TC, AC and a whole load of groups!

[Gainesy]

The 74 list also misses out all the AD radar stations.

Shackman, nails multiple, hits many.:ok:

[1.3VStall]

Shackman,

And then the commanders and leaders became executives, managers and budget holders.............!

[Wader2]

Fighter, Bomber, Coastal, Transport - as well as FEAF, MEAF, RAFG, but also Signals, Maintenance, Training

It was Tech Training Command and Flying Training Command and we had only just lost the Airfield Construction Branch and Air Ministry Works Directorate.

The whole, boots on the ground, together with RN (Simonestown) and Army deployments, all serve to stabilise a world that became increasingly unstable as we withdrew to Fortress UK.

I realise that this is a powerful argument for overseas deployments and CVS etc but is comes back to money. Can we afford to reinstate such a capability? Can we afford not too?

I heard a speech by a Rear-Admiral on Friday (airman but I forget which flavour) who re-iterated how import the CVS and the Type 45 were.

[sisemen]

Fighter, Bomber, Coastal, Transport - as well as FEAF, MEAF, RAFG

I seem to remember it as NEAF (Near East Air Force), AFME (Air Forces Middle East) and FEAF (Far East Air Force). Not quite sure why they changed the wording around for the Middle East.

Perhaps Trenchard had it right in the economic depression of the 30s. Don't chop everything but reduce everything down to the lowest possible and then you can expand when necessary because all the talent and knowledge is still there.

[rockiesqiud]

Indeed, I had a rather unhappy week there with glandular fever in 1990.

MGD Was that the last time you were speechless?:}

[minigundiplomat]

MGD Was that the last time you were speechless?


Probably. I must admit, it's the most ill I've ever been. Still, done and dusted and Ive enoyed 19 years of free and vocal expression ever since....



unfortunately for some.

[Pontius Navigator]

I seem to remember it as NEAF (Near East Air Force), AFME (Air Forces Middle East) and FEAF (Far East Air Force). Not quite sure why they changed the wording around for the Middle East.

The answer is given here:

Commands - Med/Mid East_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Cmd_O2.htm)

MEAF existed until 1958 when a unified command Middle East Command was formed and MEAF was absorbed as RAF element of MEC.

Like many other changes the original name was probably retained in the vernacular as personnel in AFME were essentially transients for a year or 3 and then back to UK or other overseas theatre.

[ian16th]

I must admit, it's the most ill I've ever been.You obviously never spent 3 weeks in the North Western Hotel in Karachi in 1959.

I was only 22 at the time, but I felt so ill that I'd happily have died. :uhoh:

Back to the original thread; like PontNav, my 1st take was 1964, just before the Valiants developed their problems and we had TSR 2 on order. After reading other posts, I am reminded that it was also towards the end of when we had a proper 'Command' structure with Commands having a defined task.

Transport Command, transported people and things, what a way to work!

I do believe that the 90 Group/Signals Command roundabout was stopped on Signals Command at the time.

It was also towards the end of 1964 that one pipe smoking Harold Wilson became PM and started changing things.

I started my demob leave on 1st Feb 1965, before my leave was finished, the Valiant's were doomed and the TSR 2 was scrapped soon after.

Did I get out at the right time?

[Pontius Navigator]

While I held no brief for HW at the time, we were summarily withdrawn from the Far East, it seems he was dealt a rubbish hand of cards.

He was under pressure because of a balance of payments problem and soon had to devalue the pound from $2.80 to $2.40. Although we subsequently withdrew from the Far East and had avoided involvement in Vietnam, his inclination had been to preserve the Singapore base that the Tories had been trying to close.

Dean Rusk had also been keen that we remained in the Far East as we could do things that the US could not.

At the same time Wilson was coming under pressure from NATO to restore the forces that had been deployed to the Far East as our contribution to the deterent and our target coverage was reduced.

That Wilson cancelled the TSR2, F111 and P1154 to his credit he ordered the C130, F4 and Buccaneer that the Air Force did not want. He was probably responsible for Nimrod and Jaguar too although it was Ted Heath (IIRC) who dropped the idea of using some Jaguar as an advanced trainer. (If I have the chronology and culprits wrong put it down to anno dominii)

[CirrusF]

How do you measure "capability"?

During the cold war - which seems to be the favoured period on this thread - we were probably capable of vapourising more bodies than at any other period in time. But that was all a phoney war with endless training orientated towards a fictional scenario. Every exercise you more or less knew what was going to happen as you had done it before the previous year (albeit at a slightly more junior level).

Despite all the whingers on here, I have to say that it I think it possibly now one of the best times to be in the services - lots of different and challenging real operations, all totally unpredictable and with a mostly worthwhile objective (excepting Iraq of course).

[tornadoken]

PN is right. (Healey, under) Wilson, funded Jaguar (17/5/65 largely as trainer, redefined 16/1/67 as 165 'S' {GR1}, 35 'B' {T.2}); Nimrod (38 MR1 ordered 1/66, 3 R.1, 10/69); Puma (22/2/67); Harrier GR1 (60 ordered 3/67); 26 new Buccaneer S.2(RAF), 12/7/68; 118 F-4M and 66 C-130K. He deployed WE177B, funded WE177A, initiated the Definition Phase of (to be) Tornado GR1 (14/5/69), and on 16/1/68 quit pretending we could police the East, while funding a NATO conventional prelude to escalation, as "flexible response".

All of that produced the RAFG of 1972-89, controlled in NADGE, carrying WE177A on Bucc/Jag to 1984 then Tornado. In UK the expeditionary Harrier force, maritime Buccs and, from 1984 multi-stores-kitted Tornado gave a capability rather more competitive than any since 1945. USAFE/NATO ditto: no co-incidence that Gorbachev threw in the towel.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Friday tea-time, when the Officers have gone home for the weekend

[Pontius Navigator]

Friday tea-time, when the Officers have gone home for the weekend

Tut, tut,

You remind me however of the number of staff on 24 hour duty during V-force QRA days from Duty Staish, Ops Controller, ATCO, Eng O, Arm O, 15 aircrew, SDO, OC Police - at least 22 officers and then the 3 Q-ship ground crew, the arm teams, SST, caterers, fire, admin, medics, etc etc.

Perhaps 10% or a bit of the station on 24 hr alert.

[Chugalug2]

As has been already asked, capable of what? If it is to do what air forces are supposed to do, that is to project airpower and to deny that opportunity to an enemy airforce, then 1944/45 must surely trump all other candidates. For most of them the necessary ingredients of an actual enemy (rather than a potential one) and an enemy airforce worthy of the title did not exist. The 1974 list of course would have seemed shockingly short in 1944/5 when the sheer volume of types and locations would never be seen again. Of course technology meant more and more bang at ever higher speeds thereafter, but that is not what this thread is about, or is it?

[Chalfonts]

I did my RAF SAS training in Aalborg in Denmark, with a fine bunch of Jaguar men in 1996. Did manouvres down John Wayne Strasse with early starts and late parties, the hardest I've pushed my body in any two weeks of my RAF career. I could'nt do it now, I've gone soft. My plan to harden up the Air Force, 2 weeks in Denmark drinking, womanising and 'sleepings cheating'. Aah if only I was chief of the Air Staff!

[BEagle]

...a fine bunch of Jaguar men in 1996. Did manoeuvres down John Wayne...

:bored:

2 weeks in Denmark drinking, womanising and 'sleeping's cheating'.

Clearly not with 31 Sqn, then.......:ooh:


(BTW - that's banter!)

[Chalfonts]

BEagle my old chum, could it have been those fine men of 31 Sqn were led by a tyrant with the looks of Genghis Khan? Do you know a dog called Mutley?

[Blacksheep]

I'm surprised at all the votes for 1974. That was the year I got tired of the never-ending cuts that meant the standard was a 55 hour week without overtime pay. I decided enough was enough and began my studies for civvy street, finally departing a much depleted and, compared to the strategic power of the sixties, much less capable air force. When I joined in '63 we were 140,000 strong and overseas we still had seven stations in Germany, six in the Mediterranean, seven in the Arabian peninsula and East Africa, nine in Asia, spanning the Indian Ocean to the far reaches of the South China Sea and three more in Australia. When I left in '77 we had one in the Far East, one in Arabia, two in the Mediterranean and three in Germany - hardly a global power projection. Meanwhile Bomber Command, Fighter Command, Air Support (formerly Transport) Command and Coastal Command had merged into Strike Command and half of the home stations had closed.

[alisoncc]

Must have been the days when exotic names just rolled off the tongue - Nicosia, Akrotiri, Muharraq, Sharjah, Salalah, Masirah, Khormaksar, Gan, Tengah, Seleta, Changi, etc. Holiday camps all over the globe. Magic days.

Alison

[John Farley]

If capability is defined by guaranteeing to DH a specific target, non-nuclear, regardless of weather or day/night then it has to be today.

[barnstormer1968]

John Farley.
Are you really sure about your above post? While modern aircraft/systems are several orders better than what the RAF had in the 1960's, I can see a situation where the RAF need to attack a target, say 400 miles away, and with a moderate modern defence of SAMs. In that situation, it seems that today's RAF is just too small to be able to guarantee your DH.

Masses of canberras etc were not as accurate, but then I am reminded of Stalins comment on quantity.
On a different level, surely the vastly larger RAF of yesteryear was more effective in its deterrent role too.

[Blacksheep]

I'd be surprised if anyone who served there would describe Masirah, Salalah or Khormaksar as "holiday camps", Alison.

Gan is a holiday destination today, but I wonder how the tourists would feel if they were were conscripted and forced to remain there for 13 months? :uhoh:

Changi was very definitely a holiday camp. The best three years of my life. You forgot Kai Tak, Gibraltar and Luqa of course, and wisely left El Adem off your list of holiday spots. Labuan and Kuching would have been debatable.

Blacksheep was born at the best holiday camp in the entire British Empire. HMS Afrikander at Simon's Town, where we lived in the aptly named "Paradise Road" in the foreground below with the former Naval Base on the point in the distance. A four year tour of duty it was at that time, I don't know how Mam and Dad endured it! ;)

http://www.adventure-travel.org.uk/img/cape_town_0a_simonstown.jpg

[Union Jack]

Indeed, I had a rather unhappy week there with glandular fever in 1990

Minigun

I've never heard it called that before! Didn't anyone tell you to stay away from the nurses!:)

Jack

[Madbob]

BS1968

You could also say that the RAF has shrunk in size at a time when many "younger" air forces have grown considerably in relative terms. 40 years ago Singapore didn't have an air force - now look at the one it has.

Whilst Singapore is happily unlikely to threaten Western political interests the same sadly can't be said for many other air forces which have grown in size, capability and wo could pose a threat either now or in the future.

Whilst you need FUEL, OXYGEN and a SOUCE OF COMBUSTION to create a FIRE whilst to pose a THREAT one only needs CAPABILITY + INTENTION.

All very worrying when the UK would IMO stuggle to deal even with a modest resurgence of PIRA activity in NI that required troops and support helos. I wonder what contingency plans there are for that at the current time? Particularly if it requires a sustained mission to aid the civil powers...

MB

[Lightning Mate]

Could we do this now?

(..and that was just 226 OCU)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/NorwichFlypast.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

I can see a situation where the RAF need to attack a target, say 400 miles away, and with a moderate modern defence of SAMs. In that situation, it seems that today's RAF is just too small to be able to guarantee your DH.

And between Murmansk and Tashkent at the same time.

[SCAFITE]

At the hight of the troubles in NI the UK Armed Forces deployed almost 30,000 personnel, with the Army having 27,000 of these.

UK forces in NI at the moment around 3,000 or so

Good job it will not kick off again or we will be in the Sh*t

[cazatou]

SCAFITE

You didn't watch the BBC News this morning then?

It would seem that the "Power Sharing Agreement" is in an extremely fragile state - yet again.

[SCAFITE]

I was only joking about the, it wont kick off again bit.

Yes I saw the news this morning

It does look very worrying and we only have one man and his dog out there.

[Blacksheep]

we only have one man and his dog out thereFoss?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[covec]

Immediately post-BoB and up until Suez.

Re NI - and Scotland - and Wales - how about a British Federation with the current (German) Queen at the Head? A wee bit like what like the "rest of the Commonwealth" has perhaps!!!:E

[Wrathmonk]

Foss?

Hope so - nothing to worry about then!

[John Farley]

barnstormer1968

If you Google RAF standoff weapons you will find no less an authority than the RAF would indicate that your request would be perfectly served by Storm Shadow. Nice choice of platforms to carry it too.

[barnstormer1968]

Hi John Farley.
I do think you know the point I was making. But did look up the google search you mention. I have no idea of an accurate range for storm shadow, but the site I visited quoted 155 miles from target. So, I am happy to concede that in my scenario (no opposing fighters/interceptors), the very meagre amount of aircraft we have (Nice choice of platforms to carry it to, is just pushing it too far I'm afraid:E) would do the job.

Back to my dream world, and just imagine the damage a multitude of Canberra squadrons could have done with it:)

[labman1001]

To go off on a slightly different tangent from the original posting.

How many air defence aircraft do we have on QRA for the defence of the UK, say a force of 20 - 30 enemy aircraft where to attack us, could we with what we have available attack and destroy all off them before they reached us and if not how long would it take to launch back up aircraft or land, rearm and relaunch the QRA flights... surely this is every bit as important as how many aircraft we have to fight a war in some far flung corner of the world.

It may sound a touch paranoid but what if was Al-queda taking over even half-a-dozen airliners as in the attack on the America, I don't think we have the ability to adequately defend this country from attack far less worry about fighting a war....

Peter

[zetec2]

Alison:
Must have been the days when exotic names just rolled off the tongue - Nicosia, Akrotiri, Muharraq, Sharjah, Salalah, Masirah, Khormaksar, Gan, Tengah, Seleta, Changi, etc. Holiday camps all over the globe. Magic days.

No mention of Eastleigh, Nairobi sat in Gods country, now that was a joy, PH

[Pontius Navigator]

How many air defence aircraft do we have on QRA for the defence of the UK, say a force of 20 - 30 enemy aircraft where to attack us, could we with what we have available attack and destroy all off them before they reached us and if not how long would it take to launch back up aircraft or land, rearm and relaunch the QRA flights

The role of QRA is air policing, not to destroy a force of 20-30 enemy aircraft.

It may sound a touch paranoid but what if was Al-queda taking over even half-a-dozen airliners as in the attack on the America,.

Maybe, but have you noticed that AQ has not taken over even one aircraft since 9/11?

I don't think we have the ability to adequately defend this country from attack far less worry about fighting a war...

Attack by whom?

Other than a hijacked airliner any other attacking force, with the exceptions of the French and the Irish, would not have the reach without first overflying our European allies. Air defence is done in depth and not a stand-alone force.

[brakedwell]

I am glad I jumped ship in 1974 after nineteen enjoyable years without a ground tour.

[Mike7777777]

If most capable means when compared to the rest then late 1944 to 1950(ish), number 2 in a field of 2 (excluding tactical support), if it is in range then it is no more. Number 3 for most of the 1950s? Is there a league table somewhere?

Former colonies
Land of the Tsar
Us
de Gaulle's lot
The Israelites
The rest

[Finningley Boy]

In terms of shear hitting power I'd imagine 1963 was the year the R.A.F. was at it's most potent. The entire V-Force at it's peak with the Thor sites. Also, Bloodhounds galore with Lightnings and Javelins in the air defence role.

My own service was book ended by the two largest post - Coronation Flypasts; 1977 - Silver Jubilee: 128 aircraft and 1990 - Battle of Britain 50th: 168 I believe it was!:ok:

FB

[alisoncc]

I would suggest the RAF was at it's most capable when those serving were proud to be doing so, and the general populace were wholly supportive of the armed forces.

Finningley Boy wrote of 1963 when the "V' force was at it's peak. I was at Finningley in '63, and remember well the occasions when we wouldn't have to pay for our drinks in the local pub. The locals seemed to know those who worked on the line, perhaps we were always the scruffy ones. And when travelling anywhere in the UK just required a person to wave their thumb whilst wearing uniform and passing motorists would go tens of miles out of their way to assist said person in getting to their destination.

In those days, no effort was too much in helping to protect our way of life and our country. I believe we still had the same ethos as those who had served before us during WWII and immediately after. The Soviets were an ever-present threat, and we manned the barricades more so than either of the other two services. I still stand tall from my years in the RAF.

[ProM]

Interesting point Alisoncc.

I think as a result of the Iraq and Afghan wars the standing of the services has risen in the eyes of the general populace recently. The increasing prevalence of "Help for heroes" stickers in car windows is one sign of this.

Certainly we have not reached the heights of the US yet (serving personnel bounced to the front of aircraft if there are spare seats, big welcome home banners etc) but I think it has improved.

I think the respectful attitudes expressed in wiltshire to the less fortunate on their return has helped educate others.

I haven't seen any hitchiker let alone someone in uniform for a long time so I can't comment on that though. I'd be interested to hear others' views.

[Pontius Navigator]

the heights of the US yet (serving personnel bounced to the front of aircraft .

No, still get bounced from supermarket checkouts :sad:

[Arkady]

When was the RAF at its most capable?

November 1918. No question, no contest in my mind. At this time the RAF was the largest airforce in the world, equipped with the most modern equipment, bar the Fokker DVII, several of it's types serving into the 30s. Each aircraft was designed for a specific role on and beyond the battlefield and, most importantly, it was all battle proven.

Also, apart from from some French engines, all the equipment was manufactured in Britain.

Fascinating question.

[taxydual]

Easy. The day after I left.

[TEEEJ]

ProM wrote

I haven't seen any hitchiker let alone someone in uniform for a long time so I can't comment on that though. I'd be interested to hear others' views.

Hitchhiking in uniform is covered in the following regs.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/96453EF0_ABE4_1A8E_F5DFFE866A594026.pdf

'Occasions on which uniform is not to be worn:

....

f. Hitchhiking.'

TJ

[Scruffy Fanny]

For me when i had Glandular Fever- Nailing a Nurse to the wall before i passed out was my best day god bless sick quarters at RAF Wilden....
On a serious note one has to question dates 1964 for example the Lightning was pretty much in its infancy- i'd go more for the mid 70s with the FGR2 in the GA /Recce role and the Jaguar getting better- not sure when but id say today yes the Typhoon can probably drop a bomb down a man hole but with such a small force...
Can any one answer this question.. Post war the country was in a mess yet the RAF had thousands of aircraft and 100000 + people and the UK could afford it so today with about 40,000 people and 200 + combat aircraft ...where is the money going????

[sisemen]

In the mid to late 70s I was a CIO Office Commander and the recruiting targets that each office had to meet were horrendous. The RAF was increasing at that stage. It was like being on a treadmill. Even so, I think we managed to keep the standards high and weed out the obvious plonkers.

[sitigeltfel]

I think we managed to keep the standards high and weed out the obvious plonkers.Not sure what parallel world you were living in, but there was constant talk in the 70's of the "CIO problem". It was put down to the relaxation of standards in order to meet recruiting targets. We had a fair number of people coming out of basic and trade training who should never have been signed up, had sensible scrutiny been applied throughout the selection and induction phases. It was left to the front line to identify and reject them, when it was obvious they were square pegs in round holes. Most went on to be dismissed as "admin burdens", leaving holes in manning that took time to fill, causing disruption to shift and leave cycles.

[sisemen]

You should have seen the stuff that we weeded out :}

[Pontius Navigator]

Post war the country was in a mess yet the RAF had thousands of aircraft and 100000 + people and the UK could afford it so today with about 40,000 people and 200 + combat aircraft ...where is the money going????

About 1963 the V-Force was said to cost about £1M per aircraft. I know this was politician headline stuff with other costs no doubt hidden. At today's prices that million pounds would be £15.7M using RPI or £34.7M using average earnings.

Even allowing for political puff, the cost of one Typhoon today would have bought between 2 and 4 V-bombers. While the Vulcan could not drop a bomb down a manhole it could certainly vaporise the manhole and half a mile around in Moscow without an external support - no air refuelling, no GPS, no AWACs etc etc.

[ericferret]

A number of years ago in "Flights" straight and level column sombody calculated (based on bombing effectiveness) that the small Tornado force was more effective than the whole of bomber command at it's peak in 1944.

One of those bits from flight I should have kept.

The other piece was in the small ads.

Wanted, White paint for Enterprise type starship, must be capable of withstanding warp factor 9.

Wish I'd cut that one out.

[sitigeltfel]

You should have seen the stuff that we weeded out :}

Ones mind is boggling :eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

True about the CIO problem and still rampant in the 80s. They would get a good prospect in regardless of the individual's qualifications. This meant they were slotting women with 4 good A-levels into PersAdmin jobs or other jobs well below their capabilities. Result, bum on seat and one disatisfied airman.