How dumb is this.......

[Ken Borough]

....and who allows it to happen?

I was just perusing BNE departures for MEL tonight and see that JQ637 departs at 1820 while QF637 departs at 1855. Both are stand alone flights albeit to different destinations but using the same airspace for most of their way south.

Surely there must be some coordination of schedules and flight numbers between JQ and QF to minimise any possibility of a clash (and to help ATC) or is this proof that JQ is really operated as a separate entity quite divorced from its parent?

[hotnhigh]

If you think that's dumb Ken, have a look at the brisbane-sydney schedules.

[PENKO]

Even from the other side of the world I can see that he is referring to the callsigns!

This is a potential problem, unless the callsign is not the same the flightnumber, which is becoming quite common to prevent problems.

[training wheels]

Not to worry Ken, we have professional air traffic controllers here who will use different voice inflections for the two different call signs should there be any confusion. I fear more for the Jetstar punters knowing which gate to board from. Hopefully they'll know the difference between a Kangaroo and a Star.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Gee Ken,

And your point is???:confused::confused:

(Qantas637 vs '****tyknickers'637 some 35 min later.....I think I could 'have got' that....):}:}
Probably had some 5 or 10 'others' in the meantime, so no 'real' confusion I would think.

[Ken Borough]

Penko - thanks but we appear to have some dumbos in these parts as well who just don't understand that if the first aircraft runs ever so slightly late, has a near identical call-sign to a following aircraft (Jetstar six thirty seven versus Qantas six thirty seven), the potential for confusion and a dangerous situation arises.

Aside from the operational considerations in the selection of flight numbers, one would have thought that two airlines from the one stable would have the sense to ensure that their respective services would be unequivocally easily identified by the customers.

[zanzibar]

to ensure that their respective services would be unequivocally easily identified by the customers

Oh, that's SO easy. One generally runs on time, the other - well...

Then there's the fact that one has a proper service and the other is all about squeezing $$$'s from the SLF.

[training wheels]

ensure that their respective services would be unequivocally easily identified by the customers.

Again, not a problem Ken.. all suits and ties board at one gate, singlets and thongs at the other gate! :E

[tio540]

Jet* only need three passengers to break even. They studied Qantas mainline, subtracted all non management salaries and made profit. Simple. :)

[Peter Fanelli]

It's so easy to tell which of you were not around during the days of the two airline policy.

[Ultralights]

"Qantas" and "Jetstar" sound totally different....

no confusion here.

now if it was Qantas 637 and Qantas 673.. then there might be the slim chance of confusion, but both aircraft are 30 mins apart, again, no real issue.

[Aerozepplin]

I heard a two Air Nelson flights (call sign "Link+xxx") with similar numbers getting confused with each other the other day. That was pretty funny and since they were both descending through 6,000-ish at about the same time there was plenty of opportunity. One of the 1st officers was an old instructor of mine which probably helped my humour. It was a quiet day so no safety issues, otherwise I'd be a terrible person to enjoy it.

Sorry, just thought I'd share...

[ollie_a]

This is nothing... I regularly get VOZ1592 and VOZ1692 on frequency at the same time and sometimes only 20nm apart.

The other dodgy one I saw once was VIR1200 (Virgin Atlantic repositioning flight) and VOZ1200 both airborne at the same time. Good thing they weren't on the same frequency as it could have become rather confusing...

[topdrop]

Talk about storm in a teacup - submitting an Event Report for possible callsign confusion is a complete and utter waste of time and effort. Professional pilots and ATC should be able to cope - if not, I suggest there are plenty of other jobs where they may fit in.
I wonder how we managed when there was a lot more use of HF.

[sms777]

Christ Almighty!
I thought getting some one to understand difference between inches and millimeters was difficult. :confused: Now i am am really stuffed :ugh:

[Runaway Gun]

And if they have to choose between landing on RWY 13 and RWY 31.... And just after setting 1013. Crikey !!

[BN APP 125.6]

QFA958 AND QFA598, arrive same time every night.

And it gets stuffed up almost every night by either a pilot or a controller.

QF were asked if they could change it.

Five years ago.

[VH-XXX]

If you think that's bad you wanna try flying from an airfied that bought 4 Jabirus at the same time with consecutive registrations all in the circuit at the same time and they are 4 figure numbers! Which one of you was on final again? Almost impossible to track them based on your memory.

[PENKO]

Come on guys, Ken raises a valid point. My airline has a program (pioneered by Air Fance if I'm not mistaken) to avoid just this kind of callsign confusion, because it does happen a lot, especially in busy airspace. If for example we have an XXX5421 and YYY5421 or even a YYY5241 departing within an hour of each other, the latter is given the callsign the callsign is transformed into XXX421A.

This has nothing to do with professionalism or a lack thereoff, but with realising the human factors behind an airline operation in busy commercial airspace.

[zkdli]

Penko I think that you are correct about it being invented by the French:)

I have seen enough nasty incidents in my job caused by similar callsigns that aren't as close as these by Qantas and Jet star that i have to agree with Ken that this is an incident/accident waiting to happen if they are really used in anger.

Our policy is that if we find callsigns that even just sound similar on R/T we go to the airlines and get one or other to change them - most of the time they agree. But then I don't know how many callsign confusion incidents you have had.:)

[frigatebird]

Very sensible guys. My motto - Don't go looking for trouble, some will find you anyway.. :ok:

[lowerlobe]

After years watching the left hand not talking to the right hand I think I might have the answer...

It was actually the same flight and was delayed for some reason...

The QF ops people had notified the airport operators of the delay and had the amended departure time on the board...

The Jetstar ops people had not got around to notifying anyone of the delay and hence the difference in departure times....:E:E:E:E

[Nautilus Blue]

Slightly worrying that in 2009 we still get "but a good operator wouldn't make that mistake, so it's not a problem, besides it were 'arder in my day".

Having said that, flight number callsigns cause the same problem as sequential rego callsigns. FNCs offer the chance to avoid the problem though, and we are not using it.

With regard to same number, different airline, given that crews are listening for the number, and the start of transmissions are often clipped, it's easy to see potential for confusion. (As an aside, how often does Bluey172 call themselves Virgin172?)

In our airspace anyway, Virgin recently changed the range on number they use to match Qantas, and the incidences of confusion went up, unsurprisingly.

Same airline, different number can be as bad. Early afternoon on a weekday we have QFA480, QFA481 and QFA482 on freq simultaneously. Qantas four eighty vs Qantas four eighty one on a slightly iffy frequency, and in a rush?

[topdrop]

Even more worrying in 2009 is: it's everyone elses fault, instead of "I f..ked up"