201 Sqn to be re-badged?

[FarQueueHall]

Heard a rumour today from a mate on 201 that the Boss plans to drop the words "Flying Boat Sqadron" from the Sqn crest and add "Guernsey's Own".

I know that it is known as "Guernsey's Own" but what a shame, unilaterally changing a sqn's history like that by altering the crest. Bloody young whipper-snappers.:rolleyes:

[anita gofradump]

Will it make them any good?

[hello1]

Not his badge, tis the Queen's. Therefore, not his call:=

[Pontius Navigator]

True. It's a good way to unite the squadron:}

When I was on the Shinies we had just lost our 'B' Flt to centralised servicing but the one sqn Ldr on the sqn was OC "A" Flt. The sqn was 12(B) Sqn.

The boss, as we only had one 'flight' proposed dropping the OC "A" Flt and the 12(B) Sqn until someone pointed out what the (B) meant.

It is quite an education to walk down the gallery at the RAF Club and note the original sqn badges.

[Union Jack]

Not his badge, tis the Queen's. Therefore, not his call

Absolutely right - HM takes a very close interest in such matters, all of which must receive Her personal approval and signature.

Jack

[Spam_UK]

In fairness to the Boss,

I believe that the official squadron crests (i.e whats on the standards) no longer has "Flying Boat" on. Same as 42 no longer has "Torpedo Bomber" Etc. So he's not changing the Official Sqn Crest.

I still prefer it the way it is now though.

[Vage Rot]

I'll have a look tomorrow - think there's a new standard on the offing soon though!

[getsometimein]

Well I think he's fully entitled to change the sqn crest in terms of the badge worn by the aircrew... However he's not going to get the sqns flag changed...

Doesn't it read "Squadron" on the flag anyway, no F-B-S...

/me reaches for his "Flying Goat Squadron" badge.

[lauriebe]

It seems that the official crest does indeed include the words "Flying Boat Squadron". See here:

Royal Air Force Heraldry Trust, the Squadron Badges List (http://www.griffon.clara.net/rafh/sqns200.htm)

[snapper41]

Gentlemen, please; it's a BADGE, not a crest, and a STANDARD, not a flag!:ugh:

[Wrathmonk]

I seem to recall there was a GAI / DIN a few years back (around the time that XIII Squadron reformed IIRC) that directed that the only squadrons that could include letters after their squadron number on badges (and I mean badges, for the use on flying suit:hmm:), letterheads etc were those officiclaly accredited with either being a BofB squadron (F) or an Army Co-operation Sqns (AC). The reasons given, I believe, were that in many instances the letters no longer reflected the true role of that particular squadron. This would not affect the official crest or standard though.

Perhaps someone with a bit more historical knowledge/memory may be able to shed more light on this?

[Seymour Belvoir]

lauriebe,

From your link:

Royal Air Force Heraldry Trust, the Squadron Badges List (http://www.griffon.clara.net/rafh/sqns200.htm)

it would suggest that 84 Sqn should have the word 'Bomber' incorporated in the Sqn badge. The badge issued by the College of Arms dated April 1946 and approved by HM King George VI does not have 'Bomber' in it. I would suggest that that link is not the definitive list of RAF Sqn badges.

[zedder]

Does anybody know the Latin for "It's not Ideal". 42 (Torperdo Bomber) Sqn might be looking to change what's at the bottom of our Badge the way things are going at the moment!

[ian16th]

Is there a definitive source of Sqdn badges on the net?

Are the 'location' associations, such as ‘Guernsey’s Own’, permanent?

Of personal interest, 214 Sqdn, was ‘214 Federated Malaya States Sqdn’, on the badge this was abbreviated to ‘214 FMS Sqdn’. When I ordered my blazer badge, because I described it as 214 FMS Sqdn, the manufacturer assumed that I wanted the badge with a King’s crown. They seemed to think the ‘FMS’ was dropped by 1952, but during my time on the Sqdn, between 1959 and 65, ‘FMS’ was always on the badge.

[Tea White Zero]

Surley there must be a link to current badges and standards on the net?!?!

All the ones I've seen so far ar Kings Crown?

TWZ:confused:

[Gainesy]

"201 was affiliated with Guernsey in April 1939 as part of the Municipal Liaison Scheme" it sez here. Presumably selected with a pin by some Air Ministry blunty.

Interestingly (or not) 216Sqn was designated Bomber Transport Squadron.

[J.A.F.O.]

And I'd never noticed the GR in front of 206 Sqn either.

It's a bloody shame if people start wiping out a unit's history, though (even if the unit is 201).

[Wader2]

"201 was affiliated with Guernsey in April 1939 as part of the Municipal Liaison Scheme" it sez here. Presumably selected with a pin by some Air Ministry blunty.

Given that the squadron was based at Calshot, IIRC, and that is not a hundred miles and less than a day's flying for a flying boat . . .

Besides, it doesn't have the same ring as Falmouth's Feckers.

[Archimedes]

Air Ministry Orders in 1939 and then again in 1941 stopped the practice of including roles (e.g Flying Boat) in badges. In effect, there are two official badges - the current one, without a role included in the border and the old-style one.

Links with locations (74 [Trinidad]; 139 [Jamaica], etc, etc) were brought to an end in 1952.

There were several reasons for this - these included the fact that some squadrons had adopted these names for reasons which weren't entirely clear, and even the Air Ministry had been a bit too busy between 1939 and 1945 to see whether the link should be made official. Also, as it was appreciated that many squadron numberplates would disappear as the RAF reduced in size, there were concerns that disbanding a unit could cause problems, particularly if the unit had the name of a country in its title.

This didn't stop squadrons from continuing their links with other nations, though - when 139 disbanded, the Jamaican government demanded (as near as damn it) that the squadron be reformed instantly, since it was an insult to Jamaica. A polite 'don't tell us how to number our squadrons' missive was sent to the Jamaican govt, pointing out that no RAF squadrons had been known by their affiliation since 1952 (at least not officially, although they didn't say this), as the result of an AMO, and therefore, the FCO and their Airships regretted that 139 could not be granted special treatment - although there was a possibility (this was true) that it might appear as a Buccaneer squadron in due course.

By the by, II(AC) were at one point in breach of two AMOs - one which required all squadrons to use Arabic instead of Roman numerals, and another which said that a role, current or historic, shouldn't be stated in brackets after the number. II(AC) appear to have mislaid the instruction, and allowed the bureaucracy to come round to their way of thinking in due course...

[monkeytamer]

Zedder,
Some random internet converter thinggy came up with:

is est non specimen tamen

Probably has duff grammar and the likes...

MT

[ian16th]

Archimedes
Links with locations (74 [Trinidad]; 139 [Jamaica], etc, etc) were brought to an end in 1952. Are you aware if this was at the time of HMQ arriving on the throne and the change to the 'Queens Crown'?

[Vage Rot]

The crest in the frame outside the Boss' office has the King's Crown and is signed by HRH Edward. It also has a blue Petrel as the bird where as the 201 Crest on the Kinloss website has a sh1tty purple colour bird!

Zedder, as for latin mottos, I could think of a few apt ones for 201 as well!

"Anarchos"
or even "201, magic carpet Sqn"!!!!!:}


FarQueueHall - thanks for bringing up the issue!

[Archimedes]

Ian - the AMO was issued in June 1952 (and had to be repeated 10 years later because some squadrons were ignoring it...). AIUI, the study by the Air Ministry into the use of names had begun some time before, when George VI was still monarch, so the change of sovereign - and the type of crown - would appear not to have been the driving force from what I can ascertain.

[Roland Pulfrew]

I believe it's GAI 1057 you want. Some relevant bits....

Original Unit Badge

1. A unit badge is recognised as such only after it has been accepted for registration by the Inspector of RAF Badges and by RAF Ceremonial and then been approved by Her Majesty The Queen. A unit wishing to register a badge is to submit an application in writing to HQ AIR to establish its eligibility. HQ AIR should then forward the application together with its recommendations to RAF Ceremonial. If there is any deviation from the criteria for eligibility, as outlined in para 2, HQ AIR is to make appropriate comment and state whether or not it supports the application.


Change of Unit Title

7. There will be cases where a unit, while retaining its original entity, undergoes a change in unit title. In such circumstances a unit wishing to have a new badge reflecting its current title may apply through HQ AIR to RAF Ceremonial for a new painting. The new painting, prepared under the direction of the Inspector of RAF Badges, termed a 'close copy' will show the amended title in the frame; the design and motto will not be altered. The painting will be signed by the Inspector of RAF Badges but will not be submitted to The Queen. It will be registered in the same way as an original unit badge.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

How about 'minor quam perficio' (literally 'less than perfect')

[doubledolphins]

Is it a standard or a Colour? The Senior Service and the Pongos have Colours. The RNA and the RBL carry Standards.

[Wander00]

There are currently Queen's Colours for the RAF, the RAF Regiment, the RAF College Cranwell and No1 S of TT Halton. There is also a Queen's Colour for the Air Training Corps. Squadrons gave "Standards".

[enicalyth]

'non est optime parumper venatus militis'


which is loosely translated as "sod that for a little game of soldiers"

on the other hand a good squadron might like 'testes canis sumus' which is

"we are the dogs b******s"

[Aggamemnon]

The ATC do not have a Queen's Colour - the Air Training Corps Banner is equivalent to an RAF Squadron Standard.

[doubledolphins]

Thanks for that. I did wonder. By the way, do 1 Squadron still call them selves "Fighter" squadron.

[Gainesy]

Yes, aka "F Troop".:)

[ian16th]

Archimedes

Thanks for that.

Seeing as my service only started on May 22 of that year, by the time that AMO came out, I probably still didn't know what an AMO was :D

[Wander00]

Aggamemnon - you are so right - web site I checked on was incorrect - ATC=Corps Banner

[Old-Duffer]

If it was ever reformed, would 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn become 44 (Zimbabwe) Sqn?

[Shack37]

Yes, aka "F Troop".



I think the late 206 Sqn rejoiced in that nom de guerre for a while.

[camelspyyder]

I think you mean't the recently reformed 206 Sqn surely?

CS

[Shack37]

I think you mean't the recently reformed 206 Sqn surely?




Must have missed that good news, more info appreciated.

Shirley:)

[AQAfive]

It was 120 Sqn who had that unofficial monica in the early 70's. It mainly came about because a certain bold boss of 201 creamed off all the experienced Shack men from the OCU, leaving CXX to struggle with 1st tourists.

What goes around comes around and 5 yrs later it was somewhat reversed.

[Archimedes]

Shack - 206 - to be specific 206(R) - is now the numberplate of what used to be the Heavy Aircraft Test Squadron. A bit more detail here (http://www.coastalcommand206.com/page3.htm)

[Charlie Luncher]

Phew:O
At least no one has mentioned the dark days of the nineties when we had the pink float:ugh: bugger:sad:
Charlie sends
CXX should have added the tactical sword to theirs

[oxenos]

CXX was also known as the Scottish Egg Marketing Board. Take a look at their badge to see why.

[thunderbird7]

But surely this is the Squadron Crest?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/690/201wl.jpg
By thunderbird7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/thunderbird7) at 2009-10-02

[thunderbird7]

Or they could try this?

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6846/6325u.jpg
By thunderbird7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/thunderbird7) at 2009-10-02

[RumPunch]

Have they confirmed yet which Sqn will be taking over the MRA4 and which one will be staying with MR2. It appears to change every week

[Shack37]

It was 120 Sqn who had that unofficial monica in the early 70's. It mainly came about because a certain bold boss of 201 creamed off all the experienced Shack men from the OCU, leaving CXX to struggle with 1st tourists.



AQAfive, 206 had this nickname in the 60s at St. Mawgan.

Archimedes, Thanks for the info and link, appreciated.

s37

[getsometimein]

201 will be the first MRA4 sqn, mainly due to CO's tourexs etc...

120 will follow about a year behind from the look it things...

[Yeller_Gait]

So who will be the boss of 201 Sqn in 5 years time? ...... only joking

What is the latest date for MRA4 due to enter RAF service? It will be nice to see 201 get the new aircraft, as it is my old squadron.

Y_G

[BEagle]

If it was ever reformed, would 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn become 44 (Zimbabwe) Sqn?

Back in the late, great 1970s of flared trousers and rampant inflation, whilst serving on 35 (Madras Presidency) Sqn - the very best Vulcan squadron, I coined the nickname 'Zimbabwe Air Legion' for 44(R). Some 44(R) chums on a Western Ranger in the USofA (ahh, Ramada Inn, Council Bluffs - them were't days!) even had some T-shirts knocked up with the ZAL logo on them!

Does your daughter still wear yours, 50+ Ray?

[getsometimein]

The requirement is 4 aircraft and 4 operational crews by the end of 2010...

Cynic in me thinks its because the head of MRA4 introduction is due his bonus at the same time.

[beaufort1]

A little poignant reading this thread and I wasn't sure where to post this link.

BBC News - RAF Squadron to disband in Guernsey (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-12160188)

[dagama]

... and then there was 152 (Hydrabad) Sqn - a gift sqn from the Nizam of Hydrabad. See

History (http://www.152hyderabad.co.uk/html/history.html)

Wish he was around to fund the 'modern' RAF.:sad:

[Biggus]

BBC News - RAF Squadron to disband in Guernsey (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-12160188)



Not so sure about the claim to be "....the Royal Air Force's longest serving squadron...", given that it was formed in Oct 1914, and even a quick check shows that No.1 Sqn was formed in May 1912.

Or are we into the "..how long has the Sqn served once you remove periods of disbandment..." type situation?

[thunderbird7]

Ex-No1 Squadron RNAS, cue the argument with 1(F) about who was first... :zzz:

All 20... Sqns were ex RNAS.

[Archimedes]

Biggus - the answer's simple; the article is wrong.

201 disbanded in December 1919 and reformed in January 1929; furthermore, although 1 Sqn RNAS formed on 17 Oct 14, it was given Wing status upon its move to France in Feb '15, and didn't re-emerge as a squadron until one of the sub-unts was redesignated as 1 Sqn RNAS in December 1916.

So even with accumulated service, it falls behind, for instance II(AC) - formed 1912, and only out of commission for 11 days in 1920; IV - formed 1912 and continuous service until it became IV(R) and 24 - formed September 1915, and continuous service ever since. There are a couple of other numberplates which have been extant both for longer and for greater length of accumulated service than 201.

And since the RNAS wasn't created until the RN went UDI in 1914, 1(N) couldn't be older than 1(F).

[Biggus]

t7,

Thanks, but I already knew what the 200 series Sqns were...



Archimedes,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I didn't think the claim in the article sounded credible!

[Barksdale Boy]

While not rising to the bait of BEagle's oft repeated and, frankly, bizarre views on Vulcan squadron ascendancy, I seem to remember that, on 44 R/Z Sqn in the late 60s, Harvey Moore's crew were known as F Troop.

[BEagle]

'tis mere banter between the superior Madras Presidency squadron and the Zimbabwe Air Legion, Barksdale Boy!

[Barksdale Boy]

Ah well, apres moi, BEagle.