English Proficiency endorsement

[chopjock]

I have just found out a week ago I need an "English Proficiency" endorcement to my CAA and FAA piggyback Licence. Wow, none of these authorities wrote to inform me of this and so how was I supposed to know?, now I'm led to believe my licences are invalid with out these endorsements.:eek:

I've done a search but could someone clarify this please?. Am I breaking the law now by flying with out these endorsements.

[Whopity]

The English Proficiency endorsement is an ICAO requirement that was introduced in March 2008. You need it for any International Flight where you use radio. Get an Examiner to sign a Form SRG1199 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1199.pdf or combine it with your SEP revalidation SRG1119 and send it to the CAA, they will replace your licence free of charge.
You do not need it to fly in the UK on your UK licence.
Details here:http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1688/ICAO%20Language%20Proficiency%20for%20Flight%20Crew.pdf Changing the FAA one is a little more complex.

[flybymike]

It is worth mentioning that a strict interpretation of the regulations requires that the level 6 endorsement is achievable only by means of a flight with an examiner and not simply by revalidation with an instructor. This typically crap CAA drafting means that since I only ever revalidate rather than renew, I am apparently stuck at four sixths English language proficiency for ever more.

[SNS3Guppy]

Wow, none of these authorities wrote to inform me of this and so how was I supposed to know?


You're responsible to keep current with the regulations regarding the certificates under which you operate. I can't speak for the CAA's publicity, but the FAA heavily publicized the need to obtain the new certificate with the English Proficiency endorsement. AOPA and other web groups did, and it was all over the press and internet for about a year or so, and for some time leading up to the requirement being put in place.

[BackPacker]

I have just found out a week ago I need an "English Proficiency" endorcement to my CAA and FAA piggyback Licence.

I don't know about you, but the CAA mailed me a letter (a fair while ago) explaining their interpretation of the legislation and the way they would be handling it.

You did keep the CAA informed of a change of address, did you?

since I only ever revalidate rather than renew, I am apparently stuck at four sixths English language proficiency for ever more.

I had the same sort of discussion with an instructor/examiner at our club. His counterpoint was very easy: to revalidate by experience, you need an instructional flight of at least an hour. To revalidate by test, you need to do the test but there's no minimum time set for that test. In practice, it's less than an hour if you are current.

So it's normally cheaper to revalidate by test than to revalidate by experience. And as a bonus you'll get the ICAO language proficiency 6 thrown in. (Assuming the examiner is certified as a 6 himself and you are fluent.)

But that's not all. If you are a level 4 right now, you need to do a test every three years. Since flight examiners are no language examiners, they are endorsed with the privilege of being able to assess whether someone is fluent (level 6) or not (lower than 6). But they are not able to distinguish between a 3, 4 or a 5. The result of all this is that if you're a 4 right now and you don't do anything about it, you'll even lose your language proficiency classification, and will not be able to operate a radio legally. Unless you sit a formal test at a language test facility.

[172driver]

Wow! There seems to be a whole load of variation to the procedures.

I hold both CAA (JAR) and FAA standalone licenses.

The CAA mailed me a new one with the Level 4 included w/o me doing anything. It simply arrived in the mail one day.

The FAA requirement was indeed heavily publicized and I applied for a new license online (!!) and received it within a couple of weeks.

So far, so good. What I have never, ever, heard of is this:

But that's not all. If you are a level 4 right now, you need to do a test every three years. Since flight examiners are no language examiners, they are endorsed with the privilege of being able to assess whether someone is fluent (level 6) or not (lower than 6). But they are not able to distinguish between a 3, 4 or a 5. The result of all this is that if you're a 4 right now and you don't do anything about it, you'll even lose your language proficiency classification, and will not be able to operate a radio legally. Unless you sit a formal test at a language test facility.

BackPacker, are you sure ?? Any reference ? And, if correct, does this apply to both CAA (JAR) and FAA ??

[mad_jock]

Makes you wonder as to how many actually open the FAR/AIM - or if it is only ever opened when the BFR is due.

You do your JAR PPL apply for your FAA ticket. Arrive off a flight from the UK next day if you are florida based you fly to MCO with an instructor to pick your ticket up. Get confused as hell with which runway your going for because the controller appears to have cleared you to land at the mid point on 1 in and there is still a 747 at 1 mile.

You go and pick your ticket up passing the manditory english test they apply of answering the question "Can I help you sir?" You then go back to the FBO and scoff popcorn while the instructor points at various bits of the chart and suggests that MCO and Miami are serious **** you better not go near them. And if you fly over the Everglades and have an engine failure you going to get eaten. Fly back to your base after your departure and remembering your arrival you decide the instructor wasn't joking and you don't speak spanish so there is no point going near miami anyway.

You arrive back at your base, your BFR is signed off and thats it for a 100 hours of hour building. FAR's never mentioned once. But then again this is the FL pilot factory (or was 6 years ago when I flew over there)

I can confirm it is true for JAR and how its already getting abused silly. Every single pilot I know who has done a LPC since the rules have come in has been given a level 6 tick. French, Begium, German, Swedish, Icelandic, Spanish you name it they will get the tick.

[BackPacker]

BackPacker, are you sure ?? Any reference ?

The references are the links posted by Whopity.

In short, the UK CAA decided to give everyone who ever passed the FRTOL test an initial ICAO level 4 when the whole episode started - the official start date being 5 March 2008.

An ICAO level 4 requires a re-test every three years. So if you don't get tested somehow before 5 March 2011 you'll lose the level 4 and thereby the FRTOL so you're not allowed to use the radio anymore.

So practically everyone will have to get tested somehow before 5 March 2011. If you are fluent in English you can do this on a flight test since an examiner, holding a level 6 him/herself, is deemed able to determine whether somebody else is a 6 too. Any flight test would work, including an LPC or a test for a new class/type rating. But it has to be a flight test according to the docs. If an examiner just signs your paperwork because you revalidated by experience, he/she can't, at that moment, check your language skills - or so it seems from the CAA docs.

The trouble comes when you're not completely fluent. In that case you've got to go to an appropriate language school and be tested periodically for a 4 (3 years validity) or 5 (6 years validity). Flight examiners are only authorized to issue you a 6 (which is valid for life), but if you do not qualify for a 6, they apparently can't tell you you're a 2, 3, 4 or 5.

If you look at the SRG 1187 form you'll find a new section 6 for the examiner to fill in. The only box he/she can tick is the "yes" or "no" box for level 6. Nothing else.

I can confirm it is true for JAR and how its already getting abused silly. Every single pilot I know who has done a LPC since the rules have come in has been given a level 6 tick. French, Begium, German, Swedish, Icelandic, Spanish you name it they will get the tick.

Actually some of the Dutch pilots I know have gotten fives. So they'll need to be retested in six years. In the Netherlands, a whole industry started around this testing thing. A typical test will cost you a full afternoon and a little over 100 euros. And of course they're not advertising the fact that a flight examiner is able to test you for a level 6 during an LPC. In fact, I just spent half an hour browsing the IVW site (the Dutch CAA) and could not find any reference to this - maybe it's a UK-only thing?

[Whopity]

An ICAO level 4 requires a re-test every three years. So if you don't get tested somehow before 5 March 2011 you'll lose the level 4 and thereby the FRTOL so you're not allowed to use the radio anymore.
You will not lose the FRTOL, that is a stand alone licence and is valid for its stated period and may be renewed simply by using it.
The privileges of a FRTOL are to operate radio equipment in any UK registered aircraft and oddly enough the holder of a FRTOL, who may not be a pilot or hold any other licence, does not require an English Language Proficiency Endorsement, only Pilots and Controllers require that!
ICAO | FLS | FAQs (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#24)Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

Are all members of the flight crew required to meet the language proficiency requirements?

All pilots shall meet the language proficiency requirements when they fly internationally.
The Level 4 is issued to UK pilots on the basis of holding a FRTOL and has been designated a "grandfather right" therefore; as long as you hold a valid FRTOL you must still have the grandfather right of Level 4. A grandfather right is a "right" and does not expire! A poorly conceived idea in the first place!

All of this is being taken too literally, a flight test is merely an opportunity for an examiner to determine who is and who isn't a fluent English speaker, but it really doesn't take a test to do that.

ICAO stopped recognising Flight Radio Telephony Operators as flight crew members some years ago; but what do Flight Engineers do?

[mad_jock]

Actually some of the Dutch pilots I know have gotten fives. So they'll need to be retested in six years. In the Netherlands, a whole industry started around this testing thing

Why doesn't that suprise me. The one nation in europe that as a whole seems to have a gift with languages, where second third and forth langages are not uncommon. All spoken to a very high level. I would really have zero problem with any of the Dutch or Scandi pilots I know getting grade 6. Some of the southern europeans leave alot to be desired.

There is also confusion about if that level 6 box, if no actually resets the level 4 time period. So all the TRE's I have been with have been ticking yes so that the company doesn't get shafted with having to send them off to get tested somewhere else.

[172driver]

Whopity, thanks for the links. Now, after having looked at all of them, I remain confused. You say

The Level 4 is issued to UK pilots on the basis of holding a FRTOL and has been designated a "grandfather right" therefore; as long as you hold a valid FRTOL you must still have the grandfather right of Level 4. A grandfather right is a "right" and does not expire!

Am I right in assuming that you mean that as long as one has no problem being classed at 'Level 4', this remains valid as long as the FRTOL remains valid? I.e. no re-test?

In addition, let's have a quick look at the FAA license. This is - as license - valid for life (BFRs and medicals notwithstanding) and has also 'Level 4' written on it. Again - no re-test ??

Anyone able to clarify??

[robin]

I do have to ask though why it is it can only be awarded at level 6 after a flight test.

I've just revalidated and the CFI/examiner who did the hour with me won't/can't sign it off, as it wasn't a test.

Is this our beloved CAA gold-plating again by not allowing the sign-off on the revalidation? And is anyone official pushing them to take a more pragmatic line.

I fly regularly and don't foresee the need for a flight test for some years.

[liam548]

Am I right in thinking that when my shiny new JAR PPL licence arrives on my doormat in a few days I will simply have basic english listed on it?

[englishal]

Well I can tell you right away that I am not going to fly with an examiner or go to an "English" school just to prove I can speak English. As someone who was born and bread in England, speaks fluent English, and has an FAA ticket which says I am English Proficient, then if they want me to jump through hoops I will, as I shove their FRTO licence up their arse!

Why can't the examiner just sign the Biennial "by experience" piece of paper and say I can speak English...or am I missing something :confused:

[172driver]

SoCal, thanks, I am aware of that, have complied (already last year) and am in possession of the lic..... err, certificate with the 'Level 4' on it. My question (and confusion) relates to the re-test brought up by BackPacker and mentioned in the ICAO document.

[BackPacker]

Well I can tell you right away that I am not going to fly with an examiner or go to an "English" school just to prove I can speak English. As someone who was born and bread in England, speaks fluent English, and has an FAA ticket which says I am English Proficient, then if they want me to jump through hoops I will, as I shove their FRTO licence up their arse!

I can't see why people are so worked up over this.

If you have ever heard flight crew from, say, Asian or Russian roots fly into Europe, you can only conclude that the general ICAO concept of requiring flight crew to speak English to a certain level is a good thing. I've even heard some appalling English from some French, German and -I hate to say this- Dutch private pilots.

Now most of the folks on this forum are native or near-native speakers of English and it's a bit daft for you (us?) guys to jump through a lot of hoops to prove you meet the requirements, as that's rather obvious in most cases. So both the CAA and FAA have issued virtually everyone a level 4, and put provisions in place to allow you to obtain a level 6 somewhere in the next three years with the minimum amount of hassle and with zero cost. But at the same time they've put a little safeguard in place to ensure that anybody who is not fluent in English, is identified for proper retesting.

I personally applaud the CAA for doing things this way and I don't see how they could have made this any easier for us, without giving up the ability to flag someone who is not fluent. Particularly if I compare it to the Dutch situation where -as it seems now- everyone is required to sit a one-afternoon, 100-euro exam.

Why can't the examiner just sign the Biennial "by experience" piece of paper and say I can speak English...or am I missing something

I don't know exactly why the CAA did not allow for this. Maybe because in case of a revalidation by experience, there is no need whatsoever to meet the examiner in person? I know a lot of places where, in case of a revalidation by experience, you just leave all paperwork at the front desk and the examiner will come round some day to sign & post it.

Am I right in thinking that when my shiny new JAR PPL licence arrives on my doormat in a few days I will simply have basic english listed on it?

If you have done your flight test after March 8, 2008 and you are fluent in English, then your examiner will have ticked the "yes" box on the 1119 form and your shiny new PPL should be endorsed as such.

[dublinpilot]

"...The FAA’s issuance of an “English Proficient” endorsement on a U.S. airman certificate attests that the airman meets the Level 4 operational standards found in ICAO Annex 1. All affected airmen have until March 5, 2009 to comply with this requirement.."
See this document.


SoCal,

Am I to understand you correctly that the FAA "English Proficient" only indicates level 4 has been achieved? (Level 4 is the minimum necessary to use English on the RT). If they are following the ICAO requirements, then level four must be renewed in 3 years. If they are ignoring ICAO requirements, then why bother with the "English Proficient" bit at all?

Are they simply buying themselves 3 years to deal with the issue, or is their something else going on?

dp

[172driver]

This is actually getting quite amusing - not. :ugh:

There appear to be all sort of pitfalls.

Prompted by SoCal's comment I had a look at my FAA license (don't look at it all that often and he's are correct, it doesn't state the level). In doing so, I also had a quick glance at a recent Australian Certificate of Validation (CoV). And here it gets interesting: I validated my FAA license for some flying Down Under. So, on the CoV it states under 'Language Proficiency':

Proficient in English - Level 4
Date of assessment: XX/XX/2008 - the date my new FAA license was issued
Valid to date: XX/XX/2011 (!!!!!!)

So - firstly, how does CASA know I've got Level 4 if the FAA don't say so, secondly, if the FAA cert doesn't expire and there is no provision for a retest, why does it expire - an how does one extend it ??

For clarification, Australian CoVs are valid for three months. So - if I want to go flying in Oz again in 2011 after the lapse date what happens ?? Might well turn into a Catch22 situation - language proficiency expired, but you can't do a re-test, as no re-test required.

I know this is a bit of an exotic tangent, but one that can easily catch you out if you fly overseas on locally validated licenses.

[Fly-by-Wife]

born and bread in England, speaks fluent English,

You sure about that, englishal? ;)

FBW

[Captain Stable]

Speaks it, but doesn't write it! :ok:

[IO540]

how does CASA know I've got Level 4 if the FAA don't say soOne cannot get an FAA license if one cannot speak English.

Didn't stop one FAA DPE from Florida though, who did a checkride on me a few years ago ;) I couldn't understand anything he said, and in the end he stormed out of the room.

[dublinpilot]

The ability to read, speak, write, and understand English is already a U.S. regulatory eligibility requirement in order to issue the certificate in the first instance. All the FAA are doing is now simply adding "English Proficient" to the certificate to keep ICAO happy.

But how does that keep ICAO happy? Are you saying that it's a requirement of the FAA that you must be able to speek at a fluent level, and not just a functional level?

[Whopity]

why it is it can only be awarded at level 6 after a flight test.
Because someone has decreed that an examiner can easily certify that a person is fluent in English (Level 6) however; to judge a lower lever requires a little more expertise.

I have been signing people off for English proficiency for over 5 years and as long as they are fluent in English I can see no need whatsoever for a flight test! RTF Examiners were the first people to be authorised to do it, many are not pilots, and don't conduct flight tests anyway.

A CAA licence does not state the Level, do you really think someone is going to take it away if you don't upgrade it? It really isn't an issue in an English speaking country, the CAA have just gone through the motions to show ICAO they are complying.

[dublinpilot]

A CAA licence does not state the Level, do you really think someone is going to take it away if you don't upgrade it? It really isn't an issue in an English speaking country, the CAA have just gone through the motions to show ICAO they are complying.

That's interesting.

My IAA issued JAR licence, shows both the level and expiry date.

[englishal]

I never said I could SPELL :}

minimum amount of hassle and with zero cost.

Is it though? I re-validate by experience, and never fly with a UK examiner. I meet the examiner at the Biennial "signing the bit of paper ceremony" so why can't he simply tick the box which says "yep, met him, he speaks English like a true brit, lets up him to 6". I have no intention of flying with a UK examiner for the foreseeable future either.

Typical Euro (for we are controlled by Europe now) bureaucracy b@llox. If it could be easy, lets make it difficult.

[BackPacker]

why can't he simply tick the box which says "yep, met him, he speaks English like a true brit, lets up him to 6".

Just guessing here, not defending the CAA policy...

ICAO requires a testing both in "conversational" English and "aviation English", or whatever the proper descriptions are.

When you meet an examiner outside a flight test, chances are that the only thing you'll use is conversational English. So unless he improvises a practical exam of aviation English of some sort (which is not his job at that point), he will not be able to judge your aviation English.

On the other hand, in a real-world flight test, no matter how short, you're going to have to use both conversational English and aviation English, so this ticks all the boxes.

Via the IVW site I stumbled upon this document:

http://www.ivw.nl/Images/ICAO%20Document%209835%20(Plain%20English)_tcm247-214744.pdf

I haven't read through it all, but the early pages of chapter 2 made it quite clear, to me, why the LPE requirements have been put in place as they are.

[IO540]

Having flown to some of the outer corners of Europe I can fully see why the ICAO EL requirements have come in, and not a day too soon.

The great majority of ATCOs outside the UK (and a few nearby countries) speak no conversational English so if you say something nonstandard like "experiencing freezing rain" they won't know what it is. Some will query it but quite a few (Spain is a good place for this) will pretend they didn't hear you, so nothing incriminating appears on the tape. Eventually you declare a Pan and do your own thing (avoiding weather etc) in the hope they can see you on radar (which they obviously can) and will issue any avoidance instructions to their Spanish speaking colleagues.

There have been many accidents due to poor English, and it is a fairly persistent problem in flying.

Unfortunately, all that seems to have happened (so far) is that the same people are doing the same jobs, while pilots who quite obviously can speak perfectly adequate conversational and aviation English are having a lot of hassle to get their paperwork updated. Who thinks that Spain will send all those ATCOs on an English course? Of course nothing will happen.

[172driver]

Not saying you're wrong, IO540, but I fly quite a lot in Spain and the problem here lies somewhere else - namely in the necessity (don't quote me, but I think it's a legal requirement) to constantly switch between Spanish and English. I used to be an interpreter in a former life an trust me, this is tiring to put it mildly. Of course there are some people on the radio in Spain 9and France/Italy) who simply shouldn't be there, but in my experience that goes more for pilots than ATCOs.

Funnily enough, having flown in all sort of environments both around Europe and overseas, the biggest communication problems I ever had were - in the UK. Some northern accents are, at least to me, almost totally unintelligible.

Now donning hard hat and awaiting incoming....

[IO540]

Some northern accents are, at least to me, almost totally unintelligible.

Very true - especially if it is an RAF station with their duff mikes :)

[Fuji Abound]

The first time I flew in the States I could barely understand a word they said - and yet they claim to speak English.

Last week I spoke to three different people in HSBCs call centre - they all claimed they could speak English but in the end I had to ask to be transferred to someone that did - and even then it was not much of an improvement.

[IO540]

Luckily NATS have not yet subcontracted ATC to India :)

It will come.........

[Captain Stable]

Please, dear god, noooooo.... :uhoh:

[liam548]

I can't see why people are so worked up over this.





If you have done your flight test after March 8, 2008 and you are fluent in English, then your examiner will have ticked the "yes" box on the 1119 form and your shiny new PPL should be endorsed as such.


My shiny new licence arrived this morning.


It does not state any kind of level only "remarks,
Language proficiency: English

and on the actual Flight Radiotelephony Operators licence part "remarks: VHF only".

Is this what it should say since it is a UK issued JAR-PPL.

[BackPacker]

Yes, you're good to go.

Congratulations by the way.

(I do wonder about the fact that the UK CAA does not print proficiency levels & expiry dates for the language proficiency on the license. How would somebody, eg. on a ramp check, know whether your time is up or not? Right now nobody can tell from your license whether you're a 4 (grandfathered or teste) with a three-year retest regime, or a 5 with a six-year retest regime, or a 6 for life. I mean, everything else on your license that expires has an expiry date next to it, not?)

[S-Works]

Because we are English dammit!! How can johnny foreigner ramp check a native English speaker and out English them?????? :p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[mad_jock]

Backpacker I have actually been caught on this one on a ramp check and I was resigned to a heap of paper work and a 4 figure fine and the plane grounded until a Captain with the approprate bit of paper was positioned in.

Thankfully the inspector thought the whole thing was hilarious that a G reg aircraft with a fat scotsman Captain and said Captain wasn't qualified to speak English on the RT.

The caa wern't much bloody help taking 12 days to get another bit of paper out to me to make me legal. With a whole heap of of crap about security and addresses, the fact that somewhere in the postal system there is a ATPL license adrift with my details on it that never appeared on my door step 2 months prior to this doesn't seem to worry them. But we can't send another bit of paper to you without written permission. Thankfully XXXXXX CAA flight ops were crewed by current aircrew and engineers who do flight ops inspections 2-4 days a month meant that after a phone call I could continue to operate in there FIR with no hassels. If it was in France I would have been in the nick with the 4 figure fine.

[jimmygill]

Am I to understand you correctly that the FAA "English Proficient" only indicates level 4 has been achieved? (Level 4 is the minimum necessary to use English on the RT). If they are following the ICAO requirements, then level four must be renewed in 3 years. If they are ignoring ICAO requirements, then why bother with the "English Proficient" bit at all?

Are they simply buying themselves 3 years to deal with the issue, or is their something else going on?


One cannot exercise the privileges of an FAA certificate unless one has a Biennial Flight Review (2 year). The flight review is conducted by a CFI, and he has to make sure that the pilot under review meets all the qualification requirements for exercising the privileges, English Proficiency is one of them.

Kudos to FAA, they have implemented the English Proficiency requirements in the most economical and convenient way.

FAA is not ignoring ICAO requirement, FAA has met and superseded the ICAO requirements, only thing they haven't done is to introduce more paper-work.

[dublinpilot]

One cannot exercise the privileges of an FAA certificate unless one has a Biennial Flight Review (2 year). The flight review is conducted by a CFI, and he has to make sure that the pilot under review meets all the qualification requirements for exercising the privileges, English Proficiency is one of them.

Kudos to FAA, they have implemented the English Proficiency requirements in the most economical and convenient way.

FAA is not ignoring ICAO requirement, FAA has met and superseded the ICAO requirements, only thing they haven't done is to introduce more paper-work.

Thanks Jimmy. That makes perfect sense. If the instructor must check your English is at least level 4 at your BFR, then it would indeed seem to comply with ICAO.

Thank you for pointing that out ;)

[jimmygill]

You are welcome.

Interestingly enough FAA puts the English Proficient Endorsement in limitations section of the Airman Certificate. My guess, may be FAA wants to say, language proficiency only checked for English, hence a proficiency become a limitations :) .


And I am still waiting on how DGCA, India is going to implement it. I guess they will ask all pilots to fill in a form in triplicate, send it across to few agencies wait for an appointment, which comes after few weeks, and when you reach there, you find that 100 other pilots have same date and time for the appointment, chit chat with the pilot community for hours, and wait for the random chance to get evaluated.

[englishal]

I'm still confused. Regarding the JAA PPL.....

Can my English language be revalidated "by experience" at the same time as the examiner signs the paperwork?

Do I have to go to an english language school to take a test?

Do I have to do a flight test to revalidate it?

Will it "expire" and I will become invalid if I don't revaidate it?

If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.

[Cusco]

Englishal wrote

If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.
Today 05:33

That bolshie attitude may lead you into trouble when you have an accident and your insurance company finds out that you haven't been flying in accordance with the terms of ICAO regulations applying to your licence.

Cusco

[flybymike]

Is anybody really going to to make a whole legal issue out of a British UK National born and "bread" in the UK, allegedly being unable to speak English whilst the whole of the UK is full of east europeans who hold down jobs and can barely string a few grunts together? A CAA prosecution would surely be laughed out of court as soon as the pilot opened his mouth. As for his need to know "Aviation English" (what ever that brand is) it will have been covered when the FRTOL was done. Any insurance company refusing a claim from a licensed British English speaking FRTOL/PPL/ATPL holder would be wide open to a counter claim for unreasonable terms

MJ's experience is ludicrous jobsworthness

[S-Works]

If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.

There is a reason there is no expiry date on the Language proficiency on a UK licence. The currency at Lvl4 is rolling. You are exposed to an Examiner every 2 years by default. If it really bothers you that much then you can either fly with an examiner as part of your 2 year flight and have him sign Lvl6 which I do by default for every person that revalidates with me. Or you can phone PLD up and have a nice conversation in English and they will upgrade you as PLD staff like us examiners are granted Lvl6 assessor.

However unless you are 'badge collecting' with my EP is better than your EP mindset, it makes absolutely no difference to your life if you have Lvl4 or 6 as a UK licence holder.

Interestingly enough FAA puts the English Proficient Endorsement in limitations section of the Airman Certificate.

Thats because it is where is supposed to go under the ICAO requirement, goes in the same section on a JAR FCL licence.

[pembroke]

Please note that the latest edition of SRG\1119, (1-9-09) clarifies the English language assesment. As I read this ,an examiner can sign "at level 6" for either a test or revalidation by experience. I and others raised this as a problem and the CAA has responded. Everyone should be covered by the JAR two year revalidation process, or until EASA is implemented fully. This is not required for the NPPL, but again watch this space re a possible EASA LPL , possibly replacing the NPPL !!

[englishal]

That bolshie attitude may lead you into trouble when you have an accident and your insurance company finds out that you haven't been flying in accordance with the terms of ICAO regulations applying to your licence.
I'll just show them my FAA certificate which is valid and says I can speak english. The CAA validates this informally, I have an FAA FTO licence (whatever it is called) so I am perfectly legal.

I *can* of course fly with an examiner (at expense) but why would I? My 2 year reval is up in May next year, I already exceed reval by experience and have my 1 hr with CRI so why should I now go and fly with a CAA examiner just to prove I can speak english?! Crazy system, I'll phone FCL when I get home and see if they will add it.

I've just read the CAA guidance to examiners on this subject. I really do fail to see why one has to be assessed "as part of a flight test". Why can I not go to an examiner to have my certificate of reval signed and during that period the examiner can endorse me to level 6?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

If the CAA are reading this (which they do) then get a grip will you.

[S-Works]

I *can* of course fly with an examiner (at expense) but why would I? My 2 year reval is up in May next year, I already exceed reval by experience and have my 1 hr with CRI so why should I now go and fly with a CAA examiner just to prove I can speak english?! Crazy system, I'll phone FCL when I get home and see if they will add it.

It is not difficult to find someone who is both an Instructor and an Examiner and have them do the dual flight. Tell you what I will do your flight and Level 6 for you, FOC. Just give me a shout when it is due.

Anything for a bit of peace and quiet!!!! :p:p:p

[englishal]

Ok, thank you ;)

[BIGJ91]

I had my biennial instructional flight a few weeks ago and the instructor is an examiner so I'll be interested to see whether his endorsement of my English works. I believe that level six is defined as being a native speaker so no effing chance of like talking wiv them other pilots know wot I mean.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I am a Level 6 examiner, and here it has to be done as a separate test and recorded. It's amazing how aggressive some people can become when told they have to do this test, as if it was a personal affront. I'm a native English speaker myself and I had to do it too.

The fluent english speakers need to be able to realise that in certain circumstances being a native speaker can meant that in stressful situations you may start to use colloquialisms that a non native speaker may not understand. There are some accents that others find very difficult, especially without face to face contact.

The test is for converstaional english as well as aviation english, where we play a tape of two non-native speakers, an ATC and a pilot, in a reconstruction of an incident where poor english proficiency and use of colloquialisms has led to major misunderstandings in an emergency situation. The person being tested has to analyse this and say how it could have been communicated better.

At the end of the test people leave saying "Now I understand why everyone needs to do this"

The problem is that where a country has put "proficient in English" without a level CASA insist that I do an English test for them for issue of a C of V. Even though my delegation is only for people applying for a pilot's licence in Australia. So the whole thing is riddled with inconsistancies worldwide.

[englishal]

My only gripe is with the way the thing has to be tested. As we all HAVE to have 1 hr with JAA FI every 2 years and HAVE to meet an examiner to get the CofE signed, why not make them the judge as to whether we can speak English to level 4 (i.e. operationally)? That way no one needs worry about having to do flight tests with examiners or visit English language schools ever. If they can't speak decent operational English at the Biennial flight then let the FI NOT sign their logbook.

It is really very easy, but it true British fashion it gets screwed up and that one needs a "flight test" to re-validate their "English Language Rating" to level 6 which is absolute nonsense. Almost as much nonsense as having to have your CofE signed within 3 months of expiry even if you meet the requirements well before - due to a clerical mix up.

I sometimes get the impression that at the CAA there are panels of people who sit around discussing things like this and when something sensible is suggested (like the above) then some old handlebar-moustached chap says "oh no, we couldn't possibly do it like that, it is far too easy and besides those Americans do it that way"......

[pembroke]

Englishal, if you read the latest SRG\1119 (LPC/LST) form, you will find that the wording appears to allow an assesment at level 6 , by an examiner for both tests and revalidation by experience.
I know this is contrary to the notice to examiners, but when I approached the CAA on this, they assumed a "cascade" effect, ie airline TRE/IREs first and then GA following. I am signing page 2 where appropriate for tests and revalidation by experience. As I said above, this will all be forwarded to the EASA world "in due course"

[englishal]

Thanks. I have emailed SRG for clarification......

cheers

[hugh flung_dung]

Chaps and chapesses, why so much heat over such a trivial and unimportant topic? Some people seem to need more to worry about - try learning Mandarin!
I'm an examiner and have so far felt comfortable signing the level 6 section of every native English speaker who's 1119 I have had the pleasure of signing. I'm sure that any other examiner would do the same. Endex.

HFD

[englishal]

Just to clarify........

Dear Mr ........,

Thank you for your Email dated 20th September. Apologies for the delayed response.

A UK CAA authorised Flight Examiner may carry out an assessment of your Aviation English in a formal environment, not necessarily part of a flight test. They should complete form SRG1199 and submit to Licensing and Training Standards.

Alternatively we can accept a level 6 assessment granted by the FAA. You will need to submit evidence that you have been granted Level 6 by a person approved by the FAA.

Please contact a member of the licensing team on 01293 573700 should you require further assistance.

Kind regards

Ian Saunders
Licensing and Training Standards

[BackPacker]

A UK CAA authorised Flight Examiner...

Mmmm. What about a JAR-FCL compliant Flight Examiner (certified LPE 6) who happens to have been issued his license by the Dutch authorities? Can he/she certify that somebody holding a UK-issued JAR-FCL compliant is a level 6 or not?

I feel another can of worms opening here. Will EASA-FCL sort all this out for good before the ICAO LPE level 4s all run out in 2011?

[Pilot DAR]

I just got my newly minted Canadian license booklet, and the "LP" is "EN". It makes no mention of a level.

Using my keen English reading skills, I did notice that the section which describes my class "SMELS".

Apparently that decodes to: Single Multi Engine Land Sea. With only 24 available pages in the booklet, I suppose there was no room to actually write out the full text of my "class". People shall just have to refer to my fixed wing flying qualifications by saying "he smels".

Pilot DAR

[S-Works]

I just got my newly minted Canadian license booklet, and the "LP" is "EN".

oooh, just waiting for mine to arrive. I had to go and get a professional photographer to take pics and then endorse them!! Very quaint!!

[DX Wombat]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. In October 2008 I had my BFR with the CFI and remembered to ask him to let the CAA know that I had Level 6 English which he promised to do. Several months later I needed to speak to the CAA and asked the person I was speaking to to check if my proficiency level had been recorded as Level 6. "No" came the reply. I wasn't happy. I checked with the CFI who said the appropriate document was probably amongst those waiting to be sent off so I left it at that. By last October I still had only Level 4. November saw a different CFI, different club doing my biennial check and he too said he would send the appropriate paperwork to the CAA. Knowing that the wheels of the CAA (except in the Medical Dept) can often be brakebound I waited until this morning to check again. Once more I was told by a pleasant young man that I still had only Level 4. I muttered a few quiet mutterings at him (very politely) which made him check the documents once more and what did he find? Correct! The document stating I had Level 6 had been received by them in 2008! Not so much a case of brake-bound but totally absent wheels. The PYG promptly updated my record whilst I was speaking to him.