Women Only Flying School

[XX621]

Hi,
Am doing the FI rating next year. Ultimately, perhaps when times are better, would like to set up my own school.

We were just chatting about this idea here at work. The idea would be for a women only flying school. Along the same lines, and for similar reasons.."Learn to fly without being oggled at" ;-)

"Sheila's Wings" maybe??

Further idea development on a postcard pls..

[S-Works]

And if we had a men only flying school that would be sexist and we would have women chaining themselves to the gates moaning about men being sexist pigs........ :ugh:

[betpump5]

I take it when you say "ogled at", it is because men still find it a little strange that women are pilots/learning to fly as opposed to the fact that they are attractive?

No offence to females out there but the only ones worth looking at in the industry are the ones serving me coffee.

Completely agree with bose-x by the way.

[ScamArtist]

Good idea and I see your point as I currently have a female student and there is usually a crowd whistling at her as she does the pre-flight!

But of the 3000 or so hours that my school flies a year I'd say that only about 100 of those hours are flown by women, so I think you would be limiting your market quite a bit.

[betpump5]

Sheila's wings! classic,

out of interest, was this a wind up post?

Student female pilots with ambitions for commercial employment may be asked some pretty strong questions as to why they saw fit to alienate themselves and why they couldn't fit in. Considering the majority of pilots they will work with in the future are men, I'm guessing they wouldn't do too well during interviews.

[poss]

Even if you set up a "womens only" flight school I think you'll find that these things will still occur, if not by members of said club due to it been female only but outside on the apron, unless you want to make a womens only airport?!
I highly doubt a womens only flight school will survive very long as there still aren't that many women pilots about and surely not enough to sustain a fully functioning flying school. Out of the flying clubs i've been to I think there have been around 3 members that were women whom regularly flew... I'm pretty sure they don't get whilsted or ogled at whilst they preflight and are tret with as much respect as the male members.

[betpump5]

Don't they have wings on sanitary napkins?

I'm sure I remember those adverts from ages ago where a woman is seen engaging in all usually activities (ironing, washing, cleaning) without any discomfort due to "wings".

I really should stop now. My comments belong on JB.

[Mr Scoop]

I think someone may have had the idea before you

Pussy Galore’s Flying Circus — James Bond Logo Collection (http://007.graphicallstars.com/logos/goldfinger/pussy-galores-flying-circus/)

[Bla Bla Bla]

Pink planes with fluffy seat covers, wouldn't all the instructors get that in time PMT thing that girls get when they spend to much time together.

[XX621]

Sheila's wings! classic,
out of interest, was this a wind up post?


Not a wind-up, more of a humorous diversion on a miserable Tuesday UK sept afternoon.

[ReverseFlight]

Nothing wrong with setting up a first women-only flying operation (in fact I admire your courage and determination) but when it relegates to "the first lady to fly to Greenland in a single-piloted turbocharged twin-engined aircraft under 5700 kgs during the summer under VFR rules minus GPS and routing via the Arctic Circle without refuelling", that's really bl**dy annoying. :ugh:

Sorry, I've seen too many of these quotes before.

[Fart Master]

Good idea, keep all the accidents at one airfield:ok:










.......... only joking:O

[IL VATE]

Excellent idea!!!
You MUST be a Genius!!!
And this is the best time to open a school that is fussy choosing students!!!
If you don't do that, PLEASE, let us know where you're going to work!!!
We will avoid the airspace!
I mean it!
:ugh:

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

I know several flying clubs that have a membership entirely made up of old women. The one at Sherburn comes to mind:E

[DA-10mm]

totally sexist.
lawsuit in the waiting...

[trex450]

womens institute of the air, would it be WI-FLY?:D

[KandiFloss]

I'll join your flying school if you pay for my hours building/MER CPL/Instructor rating and you can always throw in an IR if you like ... thanks! When do I start?! :ok::ok::ok:

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi XX621,

1. Reading your original post, I have the feeling you were hoping for a serious response, which clearly you have not received from anybody. So let me try.

2. First of all, assuming such an establishment would not infringe gender equality legislation, (which is subject to doubt,) I have serious doubts whether, either a women only flying school, or a women only flying club, would be financially viable. Women pilots make up only a tiny percentage (is it 6%?) of the total flying establishment, and women student pilots would probably constitute only the same percentage of the student pilot population.

3. If a women only formula would work anywhere, however, that place would be the London fringe, as flying establishments in these locations seem to have fared best in the current recession with mostly little shortage of students.

4. It is not really clear why you would wish to see such an establishment in operation. Is it purely a question of women being able to train without being 'oggled at'?

5. Or is it the more substantial motive of ensuring that women students do not have to cope with male instructors, a few of whom may be inclined to bully them or try to 'put them down'? (I had one like this and he cost me dear. The club didn't even notice what a prize arsehole he was until shortly before he left and had done a lot of damage).

6. Or would there be better ground training arrangements to assist women students to cope with the more technical subjects (such as engines), which most of them will have little previous experience of? (Apparently, even the RAF had to simplify the teaching of technical subjects when they introduced women pilots).

7. If your reasoning follows my comments in paras 5. and 6. above, then I would argue that there are not a few male student pilots that would also benefit from this approach, and perhaps all that is needed is a school/club that caters for both sexes but where the management is extra vigilant regarding its selection of instructing staff and the treatment of its students.

8. As a useful addition, perhaps one very experienced instructor, other than the CFI, could be appointed as student mentor to whom any student, male or female, could turn if he/she felt his/her relationship with his/her instructor was unsatisfactory.

Well that's my two penneth.

Broomstick.

[betpump5]

I see this thread has raised its ugly head again.

Broomstick - nice post. BUT in reference to para 4 and previous posters:

Can some please explain this "oggling".

Is there that many female pilots out there who 1. Do have the characterstics to be "oggled at" and 2. Do they actually care.

I have 10 years in aviation. Training across the world and flying around the world. In those 10 years, I have yet to find a female pilot/trainee worth oggling at. Are they all hidden away flying Exec jets?

Nonsense thread this.

[Runaway Gun]

BP5, maybe the prettier/cleverer ones see you coming, and quickly jump into different cockpits.

[BEagle]

Apparently, even the RAF had to simplify the teaching of technical subjects when they introduced women pilots.

No we didn't!

Had we had to do so, it would have more likely been because the ladies were rather brighter than many of the male students, so we'd have had to make things simpler so that even certain pig**** thick male dullology students could keep up.....:rolleyes:

I always enjoyed teaching the female UAS students. Not just because the Bulldog cockpit (yes, I know, 'box office') didn't smell of stale beer and unwashed flying suits with a female student, but because they were (apart from a small few) rather keener to learn and mostly really rather nice people.

Say to a male student "That was an average trip" and he'll think "Great, that's OK, I'll slope off to the pub this evening!". Say the same thing to one of the ladies and she'll enlist the help of the rest of her coven and together they'll strive to do better next time. It's true, I kid you not!

Only point re. a ladies' only flying school - do make the car parking spaces big enough.....:p









Only kidding!

[trex450]

It would be a shame to have a female only flying school as there are many things that male pilots have to learn from our equals. There may be fewer women pilots than men simply because it is seen as primarily a male environment, fortunately this is slowly changing. Women, in my view, arguably make better pilots in that they don't have testosterone and are less likely to take risks. The saying of "it's better to look good than be good" applies only to us guys. All female pilots that I know (including my ATPL wife) are very professional and steady pilots. The more the better but please don't keep them at one school.

[punk666]

It would limit your market but sounds like a good idea.

But heres a queston, have you ever seen 2 female pilots on the flight deck?

Ive seen so far personally a male captain and female FO and have seen on a BAE 146 a female captain and male FO
But not once have i ever seen or heard of a female captain and a female FO. I guess they dont want 2 females on there period at the same time in a stressful cockpit haha.:}

[Floppy Link]

Nice try but I'll bite anyway...

My (female) partner Captain flew yesterday with a female FO. Of 56 sectors this month, 16 are with girls (three different ones).

[Grasscarp]

Enjoy the oggling while it lasts. After a certain age you will find it dies down, if not out. You will then think back with longing to the days when men were gazing at you with longing. I have had male instructors and female instructors years ago. Had some fun trips with the guys which would not have been possible in an all female school!

[Freightops]

Come on guys.
I remember while I was a student pilot and later a flight instructor. We had very few female students. Most of them were pretty. Then you have all those guys hanging around the flight schools staring them to death. Some were actually sexually harassed and always on the defense.

If this person wants to start a female only flight club or a school I wish her well. I fly once in a while with female copilots and they take their job more seriously than most of the guys. Its a pure pleasure flying with them or doing a simulator with them.

Now guys Im only talking from my own experience. Others might have different experience or ideas.

However I wish you well and good luck with your project.

Any sarcastic comments will not be replied to.:ok:

[excrab]

I'm pretty sure that one of the flying clubs at Gloucester currently has an all female instructing staff, including the examiner, and is owned by a lady as well, and all very nice people they are too.

Not naming it hopefully won't break any advertising rules on the forum...the point is there are plenty of female instructors around, and if anyone is unlucky enough to have a problem with male instructors then just change instructor or club. Personally I would think it quite sad to be in a place which was all one sex, I have flown with female captains, female first officers, been instructed by female instructors, examined by female examiners (even one at the CAA who had a fearsome reputation and was one of the best instructors I have met), and taught female students. My suggestion to the original poster is that we all of whatever gender, creed, colour or orientation bring something into a club or company and it would be a shame to have it deliberately restricted to all of anything and nothing else...

[ShyTorque]

Ogling whilst doing the pre-flight?

I don't mind if women ogle me, so why should they worry about being ogled?

I'll be doing my next pre-flight in about an hour, if anyone's interested....

Hello...any ladies :confused:

...I said Hello! :uhoh:

;)

[Intercepted]

We don't need a separate flying school for women. We just have to kick out all the sleazy sexist guys that hang around and want to be pilots. They are not going to be any good pilots anyway....

[barit1]

My dad instructed in the WASP program (http://www.radiodiaries.org/wasps.html) - averaging 90 hrs/month for two years 1942-44. After the war he said he hated the sight of a damn airplane.

He never said he hated the sight of a damn girl, though...

[Juno78]

Goodness me, how do these poor women cope in the rest of life if they can't deal with men looking at them in a flight school?

You'd have to take into account that not only do women make up a small percentage of the pilot population, but that not all of us would want to fly at a women-only school. I can't think of anything worse, personally.

Having said that, I suspect I'm in the minority purely on the basis that I'm younger (31) than most women that seem to be around in aviation (at my airfield, anyway). I got accosted by a couple of ladies in their 50s/60s at a recent event to talk about the Women Pilots' Association, and although they were very nice their whole attitude of "well sometimes us women tend to feel like we're getting it all wrong and it's nice to have other women to talk to about it" was just baffling to me.

I work in law and a lot of law firms seem to have a similar attitude that women need some sort of "extra" or "different" training (my last firm had a Women's Network organisation that provided things like networking training for women) which is unbelievably patronising for supposedly modern organisations.

[mad_jock]

If there is a market for it......

Go for it.

If it gets more people into flying I really can't see a problem.

Mind you I can't see a problem with male or female only clubs of any type.

It will suit some women and will definitely not suit others for a variety of reasons. What those reason's are who knows and they will probably change tomorrow and the day after. ;)

[smallfry]

are there any vacancies for the post flight debriefings?... I am happy to pop in after flights to conduct them! :p

[Pugilistic Animus]

no! not necessary being a woman means nothing to flight

Cherchez la femme

YouTube - Patty Wagstaff - Champion Aerobatic Pilot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx_ui2qWgqI):D

and she's hot too;)

[FlyingOfficerKite]

she'll enlist the help of the rest of her covenIt seems that even when men try and be pleasant to women they just can't help their darker side bubbling through on occasion! LOL

KR

FOK

[Pugilistic Animus]

they just can't help their darker side bubbling through on occasion! LOL

Women say we are like dogs and we're not; just the opposite,in fact, female dogs stay puppy-like forever and males 'mature',...completely oppsosite with humans,...but I would not piss off patty WAgstaff,...you'll have brain damage after 6,7,8 negative 'g's':\

PA:}

[frontlefthamster]

Surprising, perhaps, but these people have done a similar thing for a decade...

Welcome to Girls for Sail (http://www.girlsforsail.com/)

...and I won't tell you about the entertaining half hour we spent watching one of their yachts pontoon-bashing on the Hamble...

[Mechta]

ExCrab is right. A UK school with all-female instructors was described in Loop or somewhere similar a couple of years ago.

Having had some lessons in a C152, I can understand how a female could feel uncomfortably close to an instructor they weren't happy about.

The female driving and flying instructors who taught me were as good as the best male instructors I had, especially when it came to inspiring confidence.

For the school, a good compromise, to avoid cries of discrimination, would be to guarantee female pupils a female instructor, if that is what they want. You might go further and have a day or half day each week on which you only take female pupils, if there is sufficient demand. Fitness clubs seem to get away with this.

If your school was open to male and female pupils, you might find that you attract an unexpected segment of the market, as I saw a thing on TV which said that Sheila's Wheels had a lot of male customers who 'bat for the other side'!:ooh:

[protectthehornet]

sadly, I've not flown with any that are particularly great pilots.

I can understand that the narrow confines of certain planes would make for an uncomfortable situation for a woman.

so, the answer is to fly with bigger planes. Pipers have a bit more room than C152 etc.

If you have the money to lose, give it a try.

but you don't sound very experienced as a pilot and I wouldn't want anyone I knew to learn from someone so inexperienced.

[Whirlybird]

The school at Gloucester mentioned is indeed owned by a woman and has a high proportion of female instructors. It isn't a women-only flying school and has never set out to be so. However, interestingly it does have a high proportion of female students - around 50% I believe...which is a huge amount when you consider that women make up only 6% of PPLs nationwide.

No-one knows why, but I suspect it's because it doesn't have that definite male atmosphere that most flying schools do. It feels much more like...well, normal life really.

However, personally I don't think female-only flying schools are the answer; just more like the one at Gloucester. For that we need more women in aviation. But we knew that already, didn't we?

[ariel]

For goodness sake ....

I'm female, I run a flying school, and the 'female students only' suggestion would be financial suicide, (and plain stupid).

I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required? there is no male equivalent. (If there was, they'd probably get done for exploiting sexual equality).

True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate. Viva la difference!

[Mechta]

Ariel, I take my hat off to you that you are 'walking the walk' and are running a flying school. I do, however, think that the women one finds around aviation are a fairly specialised group. Vivacious, confident and self-assured are words which come to mind.

It could well be that learning to fly brings out these traits, although it may also be that these qualities are essential for female fliers to 'survive' around all those hangar-sized egos and mouths that many of their male counterparts possess.

If you surveyed women who have started training and given up, and those who would like to start but haven't, you would find a good proportion who gave up, or didn't start, simply due to comments or fear of them from their male counterparts. Some people are simply very shy.

One only needs to look at questionnaires which ask, 'What sort of animal would you like to be and why?', to see that 'A bird, because I would love to be able to fly', is one of the most common answers from women.

If nothing else, offering women-only days at your school, could get you a lot of free publicity in the female orientated press; particularly if you included a few real-life stories from pupils who felt that learning to fly changed their lives for the better.

[Whirlybird]

I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required? there is no male equivalent. (If there was, they'd probably get done for exploiting sexual equality).

The BWPA exists simply because there are so few women in aviation (apart from historical reasons). Many women who learn to fly never run into another female pilot...I've met several who've said this, so trust me on that. That sort of thing can make people feel isolated. Not all people, and maybe not you, ariel, but many. Minorities wanting to meet others of their kind is nothing new and happens all the time. In most countries there are ex-pat communities who get together for social gatherings; it isn't that they don't like their new country or the people in it, it's simply that they feel lonely. Ditto for minority religions, foreign students at universities, disabled people etc. Such groups are tolerated because understanding people realise the need for them. That's why disabled people getting together is considered OK, but able-bodied people barring disabled people isn't. And, just for the record, 'other' people are not banned from any of these minority groups, and men can join the BWPA, and some do.

Having separate classes for minorities in a certain activity is not a new idea. My (female) yoga teacher holds many different classes, and one is a 'yoga for men' class. Apparently some men feel more comfortable doing yoga if not surrounded by women. It's the same sort of thing as a female-only flying school really. And no-one complains it's sexist, because it seems to be needed.

I think you're right that with the small numbers in aviation, a women-only flying school would be financial suicide. But I hope the above goes some way towards explaining the point of view you say you fail to understand.

Apart from all that, the BWPA is a really good social organisation and has lots of interesting aviation activities. That's why I'm still in it after all these years of flying, and I think that applies to many women. Find me a similar association that includes men...and I'll be even more likely to join it! But there isn't one. :{

[ariel]

Whirlybird: The BWPA eloquently championed and defended by yourself, as always. I would expect no less.

You know me personally, and are well aware of my views, (as I am of yours, which I respect). It’s very doubtful that either of us will change, so it’s probably best if we agree to disagree!

Ariel, I take my hat off to you that you are 'walking the walk' and are running a flying school. I do, however, think that the women one finds around aviation are a fairly specialised group. Vivacious, confident and self-assured are words which come to mind.

Mechta: I am certainly not, by any standards, a hard nosed businesswoman, I do not consider myself vivacious, confident, and self assured – I still have sleepless nights over what I do. I came into aviation through very unusual and personal circumstances, and do not regard myself as belonging to a ‘specialised group’ by any means. So, confident, and ‘walking the walk’? Hardly.

If you surveyed women who have started training and given up, and those who would like to start but haven't, you would find a good proportion who gave up, or didn't start, simply due to comments or fear of them from their male counterparts. Some people are simply very shy

Yes I agree, but people, not specifically women. You could certainly apply the above statement to both sexes. I personally know of a few boys/men who gave up, due to any of the reasons stated. (Comments from other people, etc..). On the fear and/or confidence issue, I know exactly what that’s like, but in my case, (and in the case of other women I know), it’s aviation NOT female related. Incidently, but not relating to this topic, my couple of “oh my God, I can’t do this” moments, were helped enormously by a member of the opposite sex.

Incidentally, in the last seven years that I have been involved with aviation, I have to say that I have personally experienced some very enhanced female egos to match that of any man in the industry.

I know I’ve deviated from the original topic a bit, but please bear with me, I will get back to it in due course.

To quote from Juno78 (post no 31)

I got accosted by a couple of ladies in their 50s/60s at a recent event to talk about the Women Pilots' Association, and although they were very nice their whole attitude of "well sometimes us women tend to feel like we're getting it all wrong and it's nice to have other women to talk to about it" was just baffling to me

I empathise with what is said here. I was approached myself by a couple of women from the BWPA after flying to a different airfield about four years ago. After seeing a women get out of an aircraft, they took it upon themselves to approach me, and virtually demanded (in a nice sort of way), that I should join the association. They were almost militant in their approach, which I don’t think does anybody any favours.

And hey, before I’m accused of being unfair here, I agree with the statements whirlybird makes below:

Men can join the BWPA, and some do.

Apart from all that, the BWPA is a really good social organisation and has lots of interesting aviation activities. That's why I'm still in it after all these years of flying, and I think that applies to many women. Find me a similar association that includes men...and I'll be even more likely to join it! But there isn't one.

The BWPA does get involved in some very worthwhile causes, I certainly concur. (Being a flying school, I automatically receive a copy every time one is published).

Can I make a suggestion? Drop the ‘W’ out of your title, and become the British Pilots Association. Better still, drop the ‘British’, and just be the Pilots Association. Also, put a couple of guys in key places in your organisation, then Bingo! we have an association for all of us.

Back to the idea of a female only school. We really do not need to segregate. My school has a healthy amount of female students, and knowing all of them personally, I doubt very much if they would like the idea – not even the ‘one day’ female flying part of it. They appear to enjoy having the guys around, and getting involved in the whole experience, as it should be.

Anyway Whirly, I hope that some of what is mentioned above goes some way to explaining my point of view also.

A merry Christmas to you all

[bearfoil]

For what it's worth, I've flown with and been instructed by, several Women flight instructors, as well as men. I started in the sixties, there are many. No names, but two are Captains @UAL, others have and run their own schools, etc. Captain Will Fraser says ladies make better aviators. Even keel, nothin' to prove, gentle with the equipment, etc. Patient, and professional.

Merry Christmas

Will

[corsair]

Yes I agree, but people, not specifically women. You could certainly apply the above statement to both sexes. I personally know of a few boys/men who gave up, due to any of the reasons stated. (Comments from other people, etc..). On the fear and/or confidence issue, I know exactly what that’s like, but in my case, (and in the case of other women I know), it’s aviation NOT female related. Incidently, but not relating to this topic, my couple of “oh my God, I can’t do this” moments, were helped enormously by a member of the opposite sex.I would agree with Ariel on that one. I was never overblessed with overweaning self confidence when I started flying and some of my Instructors were no help at all in helping me overcome that issue. Being uncomfortable with a boorish Instructor is not exclusively a female thing. I didn't allow it to put me off but then I was particularly committed to becoming a pilot and nothing was going to stand in my way. Less well motivated and I might have walked. If I was a woman I might have interpreted it as something directed at my sex rather than the simple fact that the guy was an ape.

On the other hand, it was when I began to fly with a female Instructor that I finally began to make progress and over the years female Instructors have featured several times, including one who I believe is the finest pilot and Instructor I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and a great human being to boot. A view I later found was shared by almost all who flew with her.

So I do believe that there is something in the idea that quite often female Instructors are better for other women and many men too.

Sometimes I do believe there is too much emphasis on pilots having to be type A personalities. That was fine in the old days when pilots died a lot and aircraft were bloody dangerous. Far too many pilots have too much ego for their own good or that of people around them. A more balanced personality is the way to go. The fighter pilot mentality should be left to the fast jet pilots specially selected for that kind of thing.

Nevertheless an all female flight school for all female students is not a good idea. It simply reinforces the idea of women pilots as a novelty. Things have moved on from Harriet Quimby and Amelia Earhart. Or they should have.

[Whirlybird]

Anyway Whirly, I hope that some of what is mentioned above goes some way to explaining my point of view also.

No, ariel, it doesn't. And despite having known you for years, this is something about you I still don't understand. Namely, why be against something just because it doesn't interest you personally?

The BWPA exists because women want to join it and they get something out of it. Isn't that enough? Nobody's dragging you yelling and screaming into membership!!! I'm not saying that all women should join, and neither are most members, and that's definitely not part of the BWPA constitution. If someone was accosted by a member in the way you describe...well, that sort of behaviour shouldn't happen, but is hardly the organisation's fault.

Drop the 'British' and 'Women', you say. But we already have the LAA, AOPA, and several other organisations which cater for all pilots. We also have some which cater solely to microlight pilots, helicopter pilots, pilots at certain universities, pilots who fly from certain airfields, and the ATC for the youngsters who want to fly. They exist because those minorities within the wider world of aviation want them. I don't notice you campaigning against them, and saying they shouldn't exist.

So why pick on the BWPA in particular? Methinks thou dost protest too much......

[ariel]

Whirlybird

Drop the 'British' and 'Women', you say. But we already have the LAA, AOPA, and several other organisations which cater for all pilots. We also have some which cater solely to microlight pilots, helicopter pilots, pilots at certain universities, pilots who fly from certain airfields, and the ATC for the youngsters who want to fly. They exist because those minorities within the wider world of aviation want them. I don't notice you campaigning against them, and saying they shouldn't exist.

So why pick on the BWPA in particular? Methinks thou dost protest too much......

Really?

Why do you seem to get so upset when somebody offers a different opinion to your own. We do live in a democracy, you know.

Point 1 I haven't actually 'campaigned' against anything, let alone stated it shouldn't exist - my motto is live and let live; I've simply offered an opinion, (mine).

Point 2 All the above organisations you have mentioned are aimed at both sexes anyway.

I'm afraid you'll have to continue to not understand me; as I said in an earlier post, perhaps it's better if we agree to disagree on this one.

Anyway, I'm off to watch The Snowman, and various other things people do at this time of year, so won't be near a computer again for a few days

Have fun

[Whirlybird]

ariel,

You wrote:
I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required?

That is questioning the existence of the BWPA, isn't it? "Why is this organisation required" implies it shouldn't be there. It certainly gives the impression of being more than just an opinion, which would be: "I don't fancy joining the BWPA myself", or something similar.

The organisations I mention are open to both sexes, but they are for a minority defined by some other means - age, type of aircraft flown, place of learning attended, airfield flown from. The point I was making is that many organisations are specifically for some people, not all. If you don't object to those, why do you object to those which emphasise women.

I see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion; I'm certainly in no way upset. However, I do wish you'd explain the reasons for your point of view, rather than just stating it. You haven't done that so far...and I just checked back through all your posts looking for it. You see, as a committee member and the newsletter editor of the BWPA, I would honestly like to know what people have against the organisation. So...please tell me, or quote where precisely you have already if I missed it.

Enjoy Christmas, and whenever you get back to the PC will do. ;)

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

FWIW I'm also a female and have actually found it a little irritating when people say "wow you've done so well..for a woman!":* because I own a flying school.

On original topic I think it would be very difficult to make a female only flying school viable, but some are certainly more female friendly than others and that is something to aim for.

I've been a member of BWPA who were good enough to give me a scholarship, and the Australian equivalent. Both are great for social flying and I have met some lovely and very accomplished people in both. I'm not a member of either now because I just don't have the time to contribute anything meaningful but I can see why people enjoy that type of association.

[Whirlybird]

Charlie Foxtrot India,
I went to Australia last year, and the AWPA heard I was going, and wanted to meet up with me as I'm the BWPA newsletter editor. They were fantastic! They arranged a special meeting of everyone when I was in Sydney, and I met Nancy-Bird Walton and interviewed her for a UK flying magazine...probably the last interview she did before she died. I'd arranged some flying at Bankstown, which is horrendous by public transport from Sydney, so Nancy's PA offered to drive me out there. The weather was awful , so she hung about till we decided not to fly, then she took me to the museum there, and drove me back to Sydney. I had a great time and met some really interesting people - especially Nancy-Bird of course!

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

When I first came here many of the AWPA ladies were very welcoming and I really appreciated that. Never met Nancy-Bird though, I wish I had!

[ariel]

Whirlybird


I see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion; I'm certainly in no way upset. However, I do wish you'd explain the reasons for your point of view, rather than just stating it. You haven't done that so far...and I just checked back through all your posts looking for it

Seeing as you ask, this is the part of one of my postings explaining the reason for my point of view.

True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate. Viva la difference!

I stand by my statement, why do we have to have a separate organisation from the guys? (I know men can join the BWPA, etc), but it is still primarily for women. We are all pilots, aspiring pilots, (or just somebody with an interest in aviation).

To be a true equal in any sense of the word means simply getting on with it. I am not the only one who believes this sort of attempt at segregation is unnecessary


I work in law and a lot of law firms seem to have a similar attitude that women need some sort of "extra" or "different" training (my last firm had a Women's Network organisation that provided things like networking training for women) which is unbelievably patronising for supposedly modern organisations

You may, see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion,But you will not change my mind, as I will not change yours, so I see little point in acting like two politicians from opposing sides, and bantering (tit for tat), for eternity, on a public bulletin board.

As I said earlier: This is my opinion, I am entitled to hold it, I stand by it, and I can’t really see it changing.

Incidentally, I personally know a few members of the BWPA, plus a former member of your committee, and my views don’t seem to bother them, (as theirs don’t bother me). We know we hold opposing views on this subject, so sensibly ‘agree to disagree’. Otherwise, it’s a bit like trying to change the religious beliefs of an individual - pointless.

If you really feel the need to continue, I accept the offer you once made - to write a piece for your magazine, opposing your own views, (Assuming it is printed unedited).

Hope you had a good Christmas

Edited for typos.

[mary meagher]

Well, in the gliding world, there are men and women (and those of indeterminate gender). In l989 I flew in the Women's European Championship, as a representative of the UK. Had a wonderful time. Came next to last, as I wasn't very good, but didn't bend anything.

Women in gliding championships suffer from two forms of discrimination.
They don't have so much money. They don't have so much free time. So women (although there are a few) at the top level are rare.

The opportunity to take part in an international competition would alas have been out of my reach on a level playing field. For the past 20 years I have enjoyed competition flying; you don't have to win to have fun. Men have trouble accepting this.

Nowadays I carry on instructing, which is very satisfying. I will often try to fly with women as sometimes the blokes will try to impress rather than to be gentle and inspirational. But if we tried to run a female gliding club, I'm afraid it wouldn't get off the ground. Men have their uses, I don't mind cooking and washing up if they change the tyres and do the heavy work.

[Whirlybird]

ariel,

I thought we were having a discussion, not bantering or acting like politicians. You seem to want to stop. However, it was you who brought the subject up in the first place...and some would say began the hijack of this thread, (but this is PPRuNe and such things happen).

I would love an article from you. I can't guarantee to print it, any more than I can anything else, but if it's well written, I'd very much like to. Similarly, it may be edited for grammar, punctuation, required length, and similar things, as any other article would...but that's all. I can't give you special treatment so far as those things are concerned. But I look forward to receiving it!

True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate.

What does equality have to do with this? The BWPA exists because some people want it to, like any other organisation. If you're not interested in joining, why do you even have a view on it? It's not doing you or anyone else any harm. Seems to be well-respected actually; we keep getting invited to sit on committees and stuff. But yes, yes, you're entitled to, no-one is querying that....so calm down, my friend!

But if you don't like my discussing a subject that you know well is important to me, why on earth did you bring it up in the first place?

[ariel]

Contact me when you want said article, (I have no idea about your printing deadlines).

Hopefully, I won't require your editing services with regards to spelling, grammar, etc.... !

[Piper.Classique]

Hopefully, I won't require your editing services with regards to spelling, grammar, etc.... !

I could change three things in the above to improve the grammar, but I won't because I'm not an editor.

[ariel]

Thought I'd better edit my last post - don't wish to be accused of anything else!

[Whirlybird]

BWPA newsletter deadline is midnight tomorrow! The deadline for the one after that is the end of March 2010...which is perhaps more realistic. Maximum 1600 words please. I'll look forward to receiving your article; many thanks.