Very strong winds - but within X-wind limits?

[noblues]

I'm looking at the actual for HKG giving 10031G50KT

The runway is 07, its within wet Xwind limits for my type (744)

I notice a/c are landing and taking off - I'm somewhat perplexed.

It must be as rough as anything, and any form of road transportation isnt going to be running ... so why take the 'risk' and make an approach?

What would you do?

(Any HKG based or regulars on here?)

[BusyB]

Don't really understand your problem. If its within your limits and within the limits to open your doors why wouldn't you make an approach. If your company asks you to go elsewhere fair enough.

Transportwise, I'm sure the trains will be running and I can't see private cars not running in that although taxis and buses might be scarce.:ok:

[Meikleour]

Hong Kong used to have a practical wind speed limit of 55kts because above that the piers could not be used and all the movable airport equipment (like steps etc.) had to be lashed down to prevent them from blowing into and damaging aircraft on the apron.
This practical limit used to be more restrictive than the aircraft limits.

PS Yes it will be VERY ROUGH especially if the wind direction goes around to about 120 degrees.

[singpilot]

More times than I care to remember was exactly that. Fistful of approach and landing, even taxiing to stand.

Then the fun began. Doors, stairs, carts, baggage, small ground people, hats, coats, umbrellas, paperwork.... all went to China. Even after China came to HKG!

If the conditions permitted, we landed, if something was close, we'd listen very attentively to the guys in front of us while on approach, and then, at their report to the tower after clearing the runway.

It's all intel.

[noblues]

Don't really understand your problem

In 10,000+ hours I have never landed in a wind gusting 50Kts.

Thats 60 mph .. the average person would be at risk of being blown off their feet.

The mere fact the wind is 30G50 means the windshear will be at least +/-20Kts ... our ops manuals stipulate an airspeed deviation of +/-15Kts is a trigger for a WS GA.

As for HKG specifics - Didnt Virgin almost loose an aircraft in there with low level windshear some years ago.

[BusyB]

In my career I have landed (both P1 & P2) in winds gusting 50 kts on innumerable occasions worldwide. Sometimes it has been after a GA but the conditions when we landed have always been within limits. A/C types have been turboprops, twinjets and 4 engine jets.

I assume your limitation on gusts is only during the latter stages of an approach otherwise I see it as completely unrealistic..
Our ops limitations are not predicated on gusts:ok:

[latetonite]

You are in this case dealing with a x-wind component of 16 to max 25 knots. Is this outside your limits?

[Black Knat]

Strange questions and comments from a 10k+hr 747 captain.........

[average bloke]

That's a light breeze in certain parts of Scotland :ok:

[POL.777]

As HKG is on the Northern hemisphere I would imagine that the wind 100/31G50 would be steady wind from 100 degrees but the gust would be from somewhere between 120 and 130 degrees.
Not familiar with HKG local winds, but generally the gust will blow clockwise of the steady wind.
Anyway it sounds like a difficult approach.

[TolTol]

You are in this case dealing with a x-wind component of 16 to max 25 knots. Is this outside your limits?

To be fair I don't think its the x-wind that he's referring to. I think its more to do with the gusts and the associated turbulence. On my type I'd be most worried about reaching the flaps limit speed during a gust, but I think I'd still make the approach. Our company limit is a wind speed of 60kts.

[LeadSled]

As for HKG specifics - Didn't Virgin almost loose an aircraft in there with low level windshear some years ago.Who remembers the inverted MD-11 beside the runway??

In lesser wind conditions than this, I have had close to IFTO thrust to hold the G/S (-744, quite light) in shears ----- treat this place with the greatest of respect and caution, even more than you usually do anywhere.

The nominal crosswind component will not be the major problem.

Tootle pip!!

[noblues]

Many pilots are of the view that if its within limits 'we WILL make an approach' - But their are times when one has to say NO.

Sure 99.9% of the time its OK and you arrive in the bar in time for tea and medals - but we are paid to balance the risk against comercial pressure, and ultimatley I am responsible for the aircraft and sometimes would rather err on the safe option and divert, and not risk being one of the 0.01% who dont get to the bar.

In the above conditions I would listen carefully to the approach & tower freqs. and set very clear bottom lines re. windshear if I were to make an approach.

As already said - HKG must rank as one of the worlds worst airports for windshear. The Aerad booklet devotes several pages to it.
Anyone who has flown in/out of there during strong southerlies will know.

[fireflybob]

I believe there have been previous threads wrt crosswind component criteria but the operator I fly for specifies to use the whole of the mean wind component plus half of the total gust to compare to max crosswind for landing.

So in the case give runway 07, w/v 100/31G50 the calculated crosswind would be half 31 = 15.5 (since wind is 30 degrees off runway) + half (50 - 31) = 9.5. Therefore crosswind component is 25 kts so compare this to ops manual limit for landing in given runway conditions.

That of course is the academic situation but if it's within limits and you are happy to conduct an approach then why not? You can always go around if you don't like it. Also modern aircraft have windshear warning systems.

I am not saying I would always be happy to start an approach just because the reported wind is within limits but this can also vary between what the ATIS is saying and what you're actually given when cleared to land. Obviously good airmanship has to be applied throughout.

[TopBunk]

The typhoon season in HKG allied with the unique terrain considerations that cause major windshear issues there would make me very cautious.

It is not about crosswind limits of the aircraft, or ground handling issues, but about a safe operation, and I'm sure the conditions must have been marginal at best. Remember, it is not just about a windshear g/a on 4 engines, what if you lose one? The VS A340 on full power I believe only missed the water by a few feet some distance from dry land!

For me, a good indication would be to see what Cathay flights are doing, they have the local knowledge and the greatest experience.

Most/all of us can land an aircraft in 'normal' max crosswind conditions quite comfortably, HKG is very different and needs treating with more respect and caution than some here seem prepared to give it - much in the same way as GIB, imho.

[411A]

Most/all of us can land an aircraft in 'normal' max crosswind conditions quite comfortably, HKG is very different and needs treating with more respect and caution than some here seem prepared to give it - much in the same way as GIB, imho.

Well said...and throw NRT into the mix as well, as it can get very rough/max sheer there, as well.
As FedEx found out, not all that long ago.

[BusyB]

Cathay had one diversion and 2 tech stops for fuel due Typhoon Koppu.

Fireflybob, well said:ok: