Pilatus Porters in Oz , PNG + NZ

[aseanaero]

On another thread some of the boys were asking about flying the Pilatus Porter , I'm sure there are a few civilian and military pilots here that have flown the Porter and could post a few stories and pics.

It's been 10 years since I flew one now but the Porter is still one of my favorite aircraft.

The one I flew started life as A14-689

In January 1968 the RAAF serial prefix A14 was allocated to the Porter, with the last three digits of the constructor's number completing the aircraft serial number. All aircraft were ferried to Australia with Swiss civil registrations, with the first aircraft, A14-652, being received at RAAF Amberley on 9 February 1968. The Army accepted the first four aircraft (A14-652, 653, -661 and -662) on 16 February, and held an official handover on 10 May 1968. The new aircraft demonstrated a startling short take-off and landing (STOL) capability, which proved ideal for inserting SAS patrols into strips less than 150 metres (500 feet) long.

Two more aircraft, A14-680 and A14-681, were received in October 1968, followed by the remainder of the order over that December and January. These eight aircraft were serialled between A14-683 and A14-693. A fifteenth Porter, A14-701, was delivered in May 1969. During 1969 the Army allocated these aircraft consecutive serials A14-301 to A14-315, but this change was never implemented.

The Porter was flown on operations in Vietnam by No 161 Independent Reconnaissance Flight, and during operations A14-686 was shot down near the Australian Task Force at Nui Dat in December 1969.

With 12 aircraft remaining, the Porter was officially retired on 17 October 1992,

Of the dozen Porters available for disposal, 10 were sold by CSW Associates of Essendon. The first aircraft sold was A14-705, the last Army Porter, which was registered as VH-ZCZ. The other nine aircraft were bought back by Pilatus in early 1993, with six of these being dismantled by Interair and shipped to Switzerland. Of the remaining three, two were purchased by civilian owners in Australia for sports parachuting.

http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series3/A14.htm (http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series3/A14.htm)



Pilatus Turbo Porter A14-689 PC-6/B1-H2 built in 1968 was my first ever 'warbird' other than a couple of pax flights in a Stearman and a SNJ owned by some friends of mine

I used to fly for a skydiving club and when the boys were looking for a new aircraft I suggested the Porter as the Australian Army was retiring them at the time

It was purchased in 1993 by a group within the skydiving club and flew skydivers in South Australia , Victoria and New South Wales still wearing its Army Camo paint job before being sold for twice what they paid for it in 2001 (it's now in France with a 'pimp my ride' paint job).

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/6/5/4/0162456.jpg


In this photo you can see the Porter wearing both it's military dash (A14-689) and it's civilian registration VH-MKT (initials of some of the owners)

I did my endorsement with a CAA examiner who had 5,000 hrs on type with the military, he signed me off after 3.5hrs of dual , highlights of the endorsement were a max power take off , bringing the engine up to full power while being held on the brakes with the stick way back , with just 2 of us on board I would guess the tires did 10 revolutions before we were off the ground (we had a headwind also) and doing practice engine failures down to landing on the runway at Edinburgh AFB in Adelaide South Australia.

Most flights were to 12,000ft for meat bombing but we did a couple to 18,000ft on oxygen.

With a full load of 10 skydivers and pilot it would take 15 to 20 mins to get to 12,000ft depending on the temperature (A14-689 had the small PT6A-20 engine not the -27 in the later models) but coming down was FUN ! Drop the skydivers out the RHS sliding door at 70kts, bring the power back to flight idle, 90 deg diving turn to the left , 38 deg nose down , 120kts and let the prop act like a huge speed brake to enter downwind at 10,000ft with the rate of descent around 6,000fpm, turn on to base at 6,000ft , finals at 3,000ft and let the ground rush up at you until around 200' put on a bit of power to take the prop out of it's slight beta setting at idle bleed off speed to 60kts and touch down in a very tail low wheeler ... it all took 2.5 mins , the skydivers are still under canopy when we were landing and we had usually got the next load on board and ready to roll when the guys we just dropped were landing.

Another interesting flight was with a 70kt wind at 12,000ft which meant I had to reverse the Porter over the drop point from a point upwind , that had everyone laughing on board.

When we got it it still had the rocket hardpoints , military radios , nice big Collins ADI which of course was all stripped out by the owners saving around 300lbs of weight.

I'll post some of my own pics later as I have to scan them first (I didnt have a digital cam in the early '90s)

http://www.asean-aerospace.com/aviation_photos/WIX/PILATUS%20PC-6%20TG%201999%20-%20small.jpg

Me in my flight shorts, t-shirt and parachute around 1993 it was over 40 deg C that day on the dusty plains outside of Adelaide South Australia (Lower Light)

Are the other 2 ex Army Porters that went into skydiving ops still flying in Oz ?

Anyone else with some Porter stories or pics please post away :ok:

[ZEEBEE]

What an aircraft!!

I ran into two beautiful examples recently in Sorong Papua operated by Suzi Air.

They loked like they had been rebuilt but were in immaculate condition.

Nearest thing to a helicopter around I think.

[aseanaero]

The ex Australian Army Porters were a bargain.

From memory the owners group paid about A$250,000 for it and spent another $80,000 getting it on the register as there was corrosion in one of the wing struts , some minor unserviceabilities plus contribution to certification costs.

A14-689 had a TSN of about 7,500hrs and half life engine and prop.

We never had any problems with it other than a flame out caused by running the collector tank dry on descent (me flying , too much dive and too much bank) , I was on a 3,000ft final when I noticed that I was losing 'the wall of drag' at the front of the porter , looked up and saw all the engine gauges winding down , feathered the prop shut off fuel and did some S turns to get it on the runway (the Porter glides well with that big wing). Once landed it started normally and I taxied back to the fuel bowser , there was still 30 mins of fuel in the tanks.

From what i heard all of the Oz skydiving Porters experienced this at least once

We never used more than 680 deg on climb (705 limit) and never had an issue with the engine , accessories , prop.

The big military ADI/gyro arrangement died in about 6 months and they put in a standard small faced AH. The only thing that I can remember getting replaced in 2 1/2 yrs was a battery and some radios. Most starts were done off a DC GPU with a bank of massive truck batteries.

I heard it sold for US$500-$750k , don't know the exact figure

[aseanaero]

Susi Air

Hi Zeebee , the Susi Air Porters are almost new 2 to 4 yrs from memory.

YouTube - Porter Flying in Papua (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYY9s8KKDDs)

Descents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD1xBMthXBs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD1xBMthXBs&feature=related)

Another operator tweaked their Porters beta and could descend vertically and come down in formation with the skydivers at 10,000fpm but IF it ever came out of beta they were going to go through VNE

We decided 2.5 min / 6,000fpm descents were a good enough balance between efficiency and safety !

In link 2 the descent starts at 12,000 ft (not 14,000 as it says on the video title) and thats a pretty typical ride down (except he leveled off for a moment at 1,500ft) and he took exactly 2.5 mins for the wheels to touch the runway.

You can see the prop really starting to bite the air at around 9,000ft as the air gets denser. Above 15,000ft there is very little propellor brake effect.

You can see the Porter is quite responsive when it's LIGHT and really bleeds off that excess speed before landing when you pull the nose up.

[Ozzie Mozzie]

Does anyone know if there are any still going aound in aus/png?

[aseanaero]

Mozzie , I checked the CASA register tonight and couldn't find any using the search function . Does that mean VH-ZCZ is also gone ?

[Ozzie Mozzie]

I followed a link from wikipedia and found this : Pilatus Porter Current Status - www.pc-6.com (http://www.pc-6.com/porterakt.htm)

not sure how comprehensive it is though

[aseanaero]

689 is now in France

PC-6 History s/n 689 (http://www.pc-6.com/history/689.htm)

Thanks for that

The website dates for 689 being sold to Switzerland look correct as I last flew it Nov 29 1998 at Cessnock, NSW and it shows it being sold in 2001

[tinpis]

Do the local Indon pilots still huff away on Gudang Garams while reading the Jakarta Post?

[Deaf]

Another operator tweaked their Porters beta and could descend vertically and come down in formation with the skydivers at 10,000fpm but IF it ever came out of beta they were going to go through VNE

Also interesting if it doesn't come out of beta. IIRC this happened down south once.

[aseanaero]

Also interesting if it doesn't come out of beta. IIRC this happened down south once.

I do recall once seeing the other Porter with a slightly bent and crumpled fuselage from a heavy landing , is that the same incident ?

I didn't see too much of Jim's Porter , it came to SA once and they 'demonstrated' their 10,000fpm 'dive of death' and then leveling off at 2,000' and flying a circuit so they actually took longer to get down. It looked pretty cool though , that porter would circle a formation of skydivers on the way down.

I also asked some engineers and they said the PT6A-20 wasn't designed for 90 deg descent.

[aseanaero]

Do the local Indon pilots still huff away on Gudang Garams while reading the Jakarta Post

Hi Tinpis , it's about 50/50 now for chain smoking pilots and non smokers and now they are playing with their mobile phones or Blackberry's

[aseanaero]

Just checked pc6.com (link posted by Mozzie) and VH-ZCZ was sold to Canada in the mid 90's and was resold and is now based in Rome.

Looks like there's only 1 left in Australia which is flyable VH-OWB at the Army Aviation Museum.

There was a lot of Porters in Indonesia operated by Merpati and the Dept of Agriculture , I tried to track down any unflyable Porters here but the Merpati airframes and spares were sold or scrapped years ago and the Agriculture Porters I am told what was left of them was purchased by Susi Air for spares a couple of years ago. I was looking for the Dept of Ag Porters as recently as 2 months ago and went up to Kalijati Air Base specifically to see for myself whether they still existed.

The STOL performance of these aircraft is incredible , I landed at Lower Light one day with no headwind with just me on board dragging it in on finals just above stall and then used reverse after touch down , we paced out the tyre tracks and it was approx 85 metres.

[Alistair]

YouTube - Porter Dive Compilation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YLoCNCFJLE)

YouTube - Plane 2 Plane stunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PxJU3eIcA)

Plenty of exit stuff on youtube to show what the descent looks like from outside.

The only ones I saw in PNG had already been parked up permanently in the bush. Would have loved to have flown one though.

[Like This - Do That]

Don't want to start any arguments, that's already been done in other threads like Army out of fixed wing... (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/352770-army-out-fixed-wing.html)

I haven't run this past any AAAvn mates, but can't help wondering if the Army could benefit once again from having a cheap'n'cheerful FW system like the PC-6 or the 750XL? These types don't carry as much as an S-70, for argument's sake, and don't carry it as fast, and can't do what a helicopter can do - but blimey! At a fraction of the cost of an S-70? Seems like a no brainer.

Just a thought.

[tinpis]

P2-SEA ex P2-PNG parked at POM after having the Macair green painted over .
Note the 402 still in screaming ****ehawk livery.

P2-SEA - Papua New Guinea Aviation (http://www.pngair.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/862/size/big/cat/)

[Trojan1981]

I haven't run this past any AAAvn mates, but can't help wondering if the Army could benefit once again from having a cheap'n'cheerful FW system like the PC-6 or the 750XL? These types don't carry as much as an S-70, for argument's sake, and don't carry it as fast, and can't do what a helicopter can do - but blimey! At a fraction of the cost of an S-70? Seems like a no brainer.



That makes a lot of sense:ok: As time goes on the ADF seems to be loosing any light tactical air transport capability it once had. Perfect for high-vel A21 containers, heliboxes etc. when ammunition and supplies are needed in a hurry. Can operate from just about anywhere with far smaller logistical tail than Helos.

Great thread Asean:ok: How does the Porter compare to a Van for meat bombing? Is the Van more efficient?

[Lineboy4life]

pk - vvp 2100 tt, vvk 1400 tt, vvq 120 tt vv? not yet delivered!

Im gonna thrash one of em tommorrow- wish me luck!!! :}

[aseanaero]

How does the Porter compare to a Van for meat bombing? Is the Van more efficient?

I never flew the Caravan and don't know enough about them so perhaps a Van driver can jump in with some comments.

For the Porter we were dropping 10 skydivers to 12,000ft in 20 to 25 mins wheels off to landing depending on temperature , the -20 in the B1-H2 was severely temp limited in temps over 40deg C and would really struggle to get airborne with a full load , from memory you were lucky to get 28psi of torque in hot weather compared to 38.5psi torque limit . I can only remember a couple of cold days where were torque limited .

[Note : limits per the book are 705 climb , 750 deg TIT / 42.5psi max power , we had operator set limits of 680 deg (top of the green arc) and 38.5psi , on a really hot day we'd bump it up to 705 and then back off to 680 once established on climb ]

For me it really gets back to what you pay for the aircraft , the ex Oz Army Porters were super bargains (A$300,000 to $350,000) compared to a Caravan at around $900k to $1 million so in that situation the Porter would win. If you were paying the same money as a Caravan I think the Caravan would be a better proposition as I think they can carry more skydivers.

As I mentioned before the Porter was extremely reliable with only avionics problems and a battery as unscheduled maintenace and again I don't know enough about the Caravan but it's more complex and has electric flaps compared to the Porters manual crank out flaps.

Caravan guys , how do the numbers compare ?

[aseanaero]

Hi Owen,

How many meaties can you put in a Caravan and what was the time to 12,000ft , descent time and total time for a load ?

[aseanaero]

Thanks Owen,

So as a cash machine the Caravan would win if you could fill it and do min 10 or 15 loads a day

[aseanaero]

What's there to break on a PAC750 ?

I was amazed with the Porter , the only problem we ever had that stopped a load that I can remember was a dud battery after the DC GPU was pooped out as someone forgot to turn the GPU charger on overnight.

[sms777]

Love the seats in the Austrian Airforce ( i mean AUSTRIAN ) Porter. Good old green canvass. Spent a few years throwing out dumbass skyjockeys that could not appreciate a perfect aeroplane still flying. I almost beat them dumdassess all the way to the ground several times. PILATUS RULES!!!!!

:ok:

[aseanaero]

The Caravan is one of the most comfortable aircraft I've flown

The seats the Army put in 689 weren't that comfortable and for me I was at slightly the wrong position for the rudder pedals so at the end of the day I'd have sore calf muscles and ankles as at climb speed with a full load you were constantly making small corrections with the controls to eeek the max rate of climb out of the Porter. The rudder is quite heavy needing lots of right rudder on take off until the speed builds up.

The Porter is easy to fly but to fly it accurately and efficiently on climb you had to work it. I guess that's one of the things I liked about it , it was a bit of a challenge to get the quickest load time for the day.

[aseanaero]

Another good youtube link (I have to figure out how to embed these :bored: )

YouTube - How close was that plane? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJN7l5f1pxE&feature=related)

dJN7l5f1pxE

[mattyj]

Lyvers got a couple at Mercer near NZAA. ZK-JMP was one of them..it has a very tired Aussie army paint scheme..not sure what its VH reg was. (its got a bigger dash engine now)

NZSkydive Auckland, Bay Of Islands, Queenstown (http://www.nzskydive.co.nz/auckland/links/aircraft.html)

[aseanaero]

Ok , that was VH-REL

PC-6 History s/n 693 (http://www.pc-6.com/history/693.htm)

I never saw that particular aircraft.

Yep, they upgraded the Porter and it's got a PT6A-34 now , with an additonal 200hp over the -20 that would be fun going both up and down.(-34 750shp vs -20 550 shp , -27 is 680 shp )

The -67 out of the PC-12 is a whopping 1,200 shp , wonder if it will ever get to that ?



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[Lineboy4life]

Susi's porters (3) are all new from the factory - one more being presently completed in Switzerland. :ok:

Both Lyvers porters are x-ADF and I believe both are upgraded with the -34's, Porter airframes are only certified for 550hp so power limits are placed as to not over-stress em - the advantage comes with the bigger compressor running cooler and enabaling more power at altitude or a higher altitude before temping out.

As for the caravan/porter/pac debate one must look at their entire operation to make that decision -
ie available runway length (the van likes a little runway)
- sports/tandem, the van/pac get a little aft on the sports loads whereas the porter they exit from below the wing as apposed to down the back,
- pilot ability/availability vans/pacs are conventional whilst one would really want a few hours in a tail dragger before being cut loose in the mighty porter.
- resale value, the world knows/trusts the caravan and one can be sold relatively easily however the porter/pac have a little more specialized markets etc.

anyways enough typing - time for beer:}

p.s - flying round the mountains of Iran-Jaya in a spankin new PC-6 with all the fruit (dual 430's, wx radar etc) is the most fun Ive had in a long time

[Trojan1981]

mmm...super porter:)

The -67 out of the PC-12 is a whopping 1,200 shp , wonder if it will ever get to that ?
:} I would love to see that!

Phil Onus (sydney skydive) has a 850hp turbo Beaver -AAX. I don't know how it compares in size, payload, time to a Porter. It has less wing area and a smaller cab, but a higher empty weight (from generic figures).
I imagine it is still a bit of a beast with that kind of power. Has anyone here flown it?

[Fark'n'ell]

the world knows/trusts the caravan and one can be sold relatively easily however the porter/pac have a little more specialized markets etc.

The world knows/trusts the caravan?

I would venture to suggest the Porter has been around a little longer than the Caravan.

[aseanaero]

Are the Susi Porters -27 or -34 engines ?

[aseanaero]

one would really want a few hours in a tail dragger before being cut loose in the mighty porter.


You wouldn't need heaps of tail wheel time , maybe 10 or 20 hrs tailwheel time would be nice as the Porters a bit of a pussycat as far as tailwheels go and has a nice lockable tailwheel.

I did my initial tailwheel on a Pitts S2A about a year before the Porter came along (it was all that was available for training at the time locally) and had a few brown stains on the undies during the Pitts training. I had about 30 hrs of Pitts time (23 hrs solo) when it came to get endorsed on the Porter and the Porter was a lot easier to handle in comparison. It took me 3.5 hrs for the Porter endorsement which was mainly emergency procedures , short field take offs and landings, crosswind landings and lots of circuits until the CAA examiner (who was an ex Army Porter pilot) was happy I had the hang of it.

All of the other Porter pilots at our DZ did their initial tailwheel on the Porter but spent 8 to 12 hrs training as it had to cover their tailwheel training.

If you look at the Porter accidents in the past (excluding fuel and weather) it's usually forgetting to reset the trim before take off where it's a good chance that the Porter will kill you or inadvertently going into flight idle at 30 to 50ft on approach where the Porter would go into a slight beta setting fall out of the air (this happened to VH-CZC and put a big crease in the fuselage).





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[tinpis]

Oh, thats right, I once shifted some corrugated iron water tanks halves to the Kabwum valley from Lae.
To do so both doors were removed, and the tank halves protruded out the sides
I remember thinking at the time, this is dumb, I dont like this.
Was I right? :uhoh:

As for taildragger time before endorsement, I would think nil would be ok, it just doesn't do anything funny.

[Alistair]

Tin,

Was there anyone in them?

[tinpis]

Think their may have been a few fares :hmm:

[aseanaero]

I would think nil would be ok, it just doesn't do anything funny.

The Porter has to be one of the most forgiving tail draggers ever made

[Captain Nomad]

The 750XL does have the uncomfortable 'Gippsland Aeronautics' crew seats but I found that a thin cushion behind the lower back works wonders.

Remember that it is still early days for this aircraft to be 'known' as a utility aircraft as opposed to just a skydive/top dressing machine but don't write it off. They are a seriously capable bush machine and the factory has been proactive about listening to their customers and working on shortcomings.

Their numbers are growing in the bush and for good reason. You can take them places you wouldn't dream of taking a Caravan let alone pull a decent load out of the same place!

Check out the videos of it on YouTube operating in PNG and Africa and the factory promo

Pacific Aerospace: P-750 XSTOL Video (http://www.aerospace.co.nz/aircraft/p-750-xstol/multimedia/video/p-750-xstol-video)

Far from being breakable plastic, the thing is tough as nails and I would take a 750XL over a lot of other aircraft for rough bush work. In the hands of an appropriately skilled pilot they can really haul.

[aseanaero]

Watched the videos and there's one scene (video 1 4min 40 sec) where the PAC has the cockpit canopy clamshells open , looked like a NZ built propellor driven Pig (f-111) , perhaps we could rename the PAC the 'Bush Pig' :)

[AussieNick]

want a turbine, with good STOL capability, check out the Quest Kodiak. looks like the mutant offspring of a Caravan and an airvan

[Captain Nomad]

AussieNick, the Kokiak looks good but from all evidence so far the 750XL can STILL carry more load from short, high altitude strips. Low wing more practical for drum refueling, 750XL cargo pod more practical with a 'back' door for loading long/wide items into the pod etc. Kodiak a little quicker maybe. Horses for courses.

[tinpis]

P2-SDA recent photo GKA
Well liked balus
Now, why aren't there Porters in PNG?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/PNG/sdaLarge.jpg
kev_laline pix

[aseanaero]

What's the payload on a PAC ? 1,500 kg with half fuel ?

[Captain Nomad]

From memory the range used to be somewhere around 900-1300kg depending on config (ie. basic acft equip/what sort of survival gear/cargo net gear etc/chairs in or out/fuel etc). One thing about utility vs skydive is that MLW can become an issue on short legs. I think raising this (and also talk of raising MTOW) is on the agenda with the factory. Loads can come reasonably close to Twotter in and out of some performance limited strips. :ok: