FAA CFI logging "PIC" in UK

[sapperkenno]

The FARs state; "An authorized instructor may log pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."

If a CFI is at the controls, and offering advice, is he instructing?! (This isn't a debate about alleged MEI's sitting in the back of a Seneca and logging Multi-Engine PIC time!)

So... If I go for a tootle around with my mate for an hour in a G-reg at a flying club here in the UK, and sit in the right-seat... He flies and logs P1, as he's working towards his UK ATPL and wants the time (he also has a based-on FAA private issued under 61.75, if this makes any difference).

So... I'd offer some tips and tricks, to build my experience as an instructor and want to benefit from holding my CFI/II ratings. Mate gets free instruction (we'd do some general handling, touch and goes etc) and we both get something out of it. I have my swanky Jeppesen Professional Pilot's log book, so I decide it would be nice to offer him some help and log the time. (I have no aspirations of furthering my UK licenses/ratings from SEP PPL.) I'd write what we did in his "remarks column" and sign my name, CFI No etc.

I'm not getting paid (don't hold UK CPL), not helping him work towards any ratings/endorsements etc and don't want to upset the flying club when they have their own JAA instructors. If I was a JAA QFI only one of us would be getting the P1 time, wouldn't we?! So my mate would lose out and only be Pu/t or P1/s? This way, he benefits from having an instructor on hand (free of charge) and I get to use my hard earned CFI/II ratings and build experience. I think yes, we can do it (if the club says so, why shouldn't they?) so any help would be greatly appreciated if anyone knows anything helpful/different.

Thanks and regards,
Spr K. retd

[chrisbl]

Who will be PIC? Anyway In JAA land I dont think you come under the "authorised" instructor category.

[Whopity]

In a G reg aircraft you can only log instructional time if you hold a UK or JAA FI rating.

The CFI rating is on your FAA licence which entitles you to fly a G reg aircraft as PIC with PPL privileges but excludes instruction. ANO Article 26
(4) For the purposes of this Part of this Order:
(a) subject to sub-paragraph (b), a licence granted either under the law of a
Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence or a licence granted under the law of a relevant overseas territory, purporting in either case to authorise the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft, not being a licence purporting to authorise him to act as a student pilot only, shall, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order but does not entitle the holder:
(i) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose
of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he
receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in
controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

[sapperkenno]

(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

Whopity, thanks for the answer. I'm guessing the controlled airspace part only refers to the Instrument Rating, and the regs aren't written to mean IFR and flight instruction? I'll track down this Lasors thing and have a look. I presume prior to the bit that you quote, it states this applies solely to G-Reg etc?? Surely it should be laid down as (iii); To give any instruction in flying - period... end of story, as a separate thing regardless of the airspace, and not tied in with the uncontrolled airspace twaddle for IFR. Separate question then... Is lasors telling me that I can fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace on an FAA instrument rating, in a G-reg, or does the day VFR PPL priviledges bit negate that? (if that's the rule)

Chrisbl If we were in an N-reg, we both would, as FAA regs allow an instructor to log instructional flights as PIC... I wanted to know if this would also work here in JAA land, hence my question. (sorry that doesn't answer your question) :}

So according to lasors (I haven't looked yet, just going on whop's kind info) my FAA certificates are "registered valid" by JAA, which I think would mean [I]in a suitable (N-reg) airplane? I do have my full FAA priviledges in an N-reg, right!? Or does the specific CAA's ANO from any country outside the US overwrite the FAA rules/regs pertaining to FAA certificates, even in a US registered airplane operating in the UK??

Should I just call Gatwick and get it from the horses mouth? :hmm:

Thanks for your help so far.

[ifitaintboeing]

The quote from Whopity is not taken from LASORS (althought it's in LASORS!), which is an unofficial document. It is from the Air Navigation Order, which is enshrined in UK law - violation of this is the same, legally, as a FAR violation in the US.

Your FAA Certificate is an ICAO licence, and you may therefore fly a G-reg in the UK, without any test or validation of that certificate. This permits flight IFR OUTSIDE controlled airspace. You may not instruct (period). You may not fly IFR in controlled airspace.

ANO Article 26

(4)(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in
controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

The key word in Art 26 of the ANO for your question is 'or'.

sapperkeno:

I mean, is it assumed by virtue of lasors, that an FAA CFI flying in the UK, in a G-reg has to sit on his hands and keep his mouth shut as he isn't "entitled" to instruct?

Correct, sort of. It is by virtue of the ANO, and therefore UK law, that you are not entitled to instruct. To conduct authorised FAA training in a G-reg, you must hold both UK/JAA and FAA licences/certificates and instructor ratings.

I do have my full FAA priviledges in an N-reg, right!?

Wrong! See ANO Article 26 (11)(b).

Good luck with the CAA. They will probably point you to the ANO, Article 26!

[Whopity]

Thanks for the clarification, you beat me to it. As a FAA pilot you can operate as PIC as stated in Article 26 but not act in any capacity as an instructor. Even if you were a qualified JAA instructor, you could not instruct whilst you friend is PIC, he would have to log it as Dual whilst the FI would log it as PIC. Unless you are instructing in an approved FTO teaching for a CPL, you cannot give instruction towards professional licences. Not sure what you mean about working towards his ATPL as that requires 500 hours in a multi-pilot aeroplane.
CAP393 which includes the Air Navigation Order can be found here: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
Is lasors telling me that I can fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace on an FAA instrument rating, in a G-reg, or does the day VFR PPL priviledges bit negate that? (if that's the rule)No actually its saying that you can fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace, not the same as flying in IMC though, its just a set of rules. If your licence qualifies you to fly in IMC, then there is nothing in the Article that prohibits you from doing so in uncontrolled airspace. The day VFR reference, which is not stated in the ANO is an approximation of Art 26. If you are not permitted to fly IFR then it only leaves you with VFR and as flight by night in the UK is conducted under IFR that rules out night in controlled airspace except that in a control zone, it can be conducted under SVFR. Remember LASORS only repeats selected bits of the ANO!

[sapperkenno]

Thanks again! I'm trawling through CAP393 as we speak, bit of a bloody nightmare isn't it!

My confusion with the flying in IMC bit, was from what I remember of my JAA PPL days... "must be in sight of the surface" or something? What I've read (after being shown where to look) now makes sense, so thank you.

My friends end goal is his ATPL, he's still to do his CPL/IR (he's done the writtens), and needs a couple more hours to meet the 100/150 P1/TT or whatever it is that you need prior to the CPL and keep himself current.

26(11)(b) what exactly is the permission they do grant?? Me, in an N-reg PA28 would have different rules to a Delta 767 crew flying in and out of LHR? So the CAA grant exemptions to foreign airlines, and allow their (foreign-rated) crews to operate in the UK as if it was their own country? The plot thickens...

[sapperkenno]

CAA grant exemptions to foreign airlines
I have been informed from a friend in the know, that AOCs, some convention in Chicago (!?), and all other wonderfully named goings-on enable such operations (as you ladies/gentlemen are probably already aware!).

Time to put this thread to bed methinks. Thanks to all who helped. :ok: