Merged: Qantas 737 wing inspection lights on for take-off

[Pretzal]

Can any Qantas 737 pilots shed some light as to why the wing inspection (I presume) light is on for take-off? Numerous times I have been ready in turn for take off behind a Qantas 737 and have been blinded by these surprisingly bright lights whilst waiting for a lined up 737 to depart. I have to ask - what is the benefit to the departing aircraft versus the distraction/blinding effect it has on other aircraft?
Can anyone please shed some light - maybe it's something I am not aware of?

[boltz]

Are you talking about the lights that are on the trailing edge of the wingtip pointing back at the vertical stabiliser or the ones below the emergency exits pointing out to the wingtip?

[Awol57]

The whole of Qantas does it any time they are on a runway, be it crossing or lining up. I think its just a SOP.

The lights are about a 1/3 down the fueselage on the side pointing outwards towards the wing tips. Normally 2 on each side.

[porch monkey]

And they are F@#king annoying to those at the holding point as the Qf a/c turn onto the runway..... Hey Keg, didn't you say a while back that the procedure requiring that had been rescinded?:confused:

[Pretzal]

I am referring to those lights about 1/3 down the fuselage that shine along the leading edge of the wing and also into other crews eyes as said aircraft line up.

[turbantime]

What gets me though is that they have their wing inspection lights, turn off lights and taxi light on even during the day!! I can understand taxi light but seriously is anyone not going to see you side on during the day?!!?!?!

I know this may be a case of SOP's shoved down the QF boys/girls throats but surely the SOP's leave some room for common sense....right???

[hoss]

if it's 'worlds best practice', then it just goes to show how screwed up the world is.

[Capt Fathom]

Can anyone please shed some light

It would appear that plenty of light is being shed!

Amazing how people are quite happy to put up with the headlights of oncoming vehicles at night, but when someone in an aircraft shines a light at them, you get some sarcastic remark over the radio!

As if the guard police wasn't enough! :uhoh:

[Pretzal]

Thanks for injecting the inevitable sarcasm - I think most people would agree that driving safely at night requires the use of headlights, hence it's not really and option. Wing inspection lights on the other hand are, thus I posed the question...

[Tankengine]

Complain to management - not the line drivers!:ugh:

New policy.:hmm:

[joehunt]

Ever heard of the saying, "see and be seen"?

The fact you saw the inspection lights, would mean that turning all lights on at ones disposal, had the desired effect.

Dangerous place a runway. Remember Tenerife?

[Tempo]

The light policy applies to all QF aircraft not just 737's.

I know this may be a case of SOP's shoved down the QF boys/girls throats but surely the SOP's leave some room for common sense....right???

These are SOP's.....black and white...so no you cannot apply common sense and just do what you want. The SOP's are quite detailed and leave no room for variation.

Why are QF doing this? I remember getting some memo with an explanation of why but cannot remember the details. Send your letters of complaint to Peter Wilson (Chief Pilot) and tell him what you think.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Amazing how people are quite happy to put up with the headlights of oncoming vehicles at night

I'm gonna buy a car with SIX headlights.

[Bullethead]

For info gents,

The lights "policy was introduced last year as a result of recommendations made
by Eurocontrol, the FAA and Airservices Australia"

Regards,
BH.

[pcx]

Pretzal and any other pilots that have had their night vision disturbed by these lights to the point that you felt it was a safety issue.
Use the Qantas safety management system or whatever it is called to lodge a report. This may not result in any change to the Qantas Sops but it will at least require them to investigate the issue.
In the past (admittedly about 8 years ago) I had a problem with something I observed on a Qantas flight. When I tried to report it at the arrival airport I was faced with complete indifference at the counter. I persisted and contacted the safety department in Sydney and got a very positive response with appropriate follow up. They even requested that I make a additional report about the difficulty that I had trying to make the report at the airport. Also received an open invitation to visit the safety department when next in Sydney. Overall I felt that the report was welcomed.
I believe that the safety reporting system of any operator will welcome reports from any responsible reporter if they are made with genuine intent.
At the very least you should file a report with ATSB if you really feel this is a safety issue. Even if nothing is done the report is on file and if more people also report this as a problem it may prompt an investigation and maybe some action.
Just because the lights "policy was introduced last year as a result of recommendations made by Eurocontrol, the FAA and Airservices Australia" does not necessarily make it right.

[Merlins Magic]

See and be seen. How often does ATC ask us, whilst on approach, to spot an aircraft rolling or another joining final during converging runway operations. Until siad aircraft is spotted a visual approach instruction is rarely issued. The more lights and reflections the better. Obviously a bit painful on the ground but you don't have time to switch them on when you select gear up.

[zube]

The process is:

Some ace in management decides putting these lights on is a great idea.

A Flight standing order goes out to the troops telling them to do it because its "worlds best practice."

Many troops may disagree but their voices fall on deaf ears.

There is a belief in management that because you are selected to a managerial role you automatically become more intelligent than your fellow pilots, many of whom have been in aviation a lot longer, have much better skills, and have more knowledge than you will ever have. " Worlds best practice" is actually a phrase meaning "in my opinion." However managers opinion wins over line pilots opinion.

I suggest if this practice is causing problems complain to QF and submit safety reports via the available systems.

[spirax]

Hey, whatever happened to Airmanship??

Yes, I know it is not taught at flying schools these days and maybe not considered by folk that put out such instructions.

The PIC must always have the option to consider what effect lights (or anything else for that matter) may have on other aircraft. Don't have a problem with lights on crossing rwy's etc, but at the holding point where there are a/c close together in the line or on the runway then some discretion is in my view is just good airmanship.

I remember a 767 pulling up behind me a few times and just his taxi light was enough to kill what night vision I had at the time. If you are in a Metro, Dash or Saab then you eye-level is where it hurts most.

Was it not the commercial dept that said it was best to have the cabin lights to dim for take-off and landing so the punters could enjoy the view or not be woken up on descent? Never mind that QF was one of the few carriers having a policy (up till then) of having the cabin lights on so as to make the a/c easier to see at night. Never mind the cabin safety advantages of having the lights on at that stage of flight! Just keep the punters happy!!!

What’s that word again??? Ah yes..."AIRMANSHIP"

[The Hedge]

For info gents,

The lights "policy was introduced last year as a result of recommendations made
by Eurocontrol, the FAA and Airservices Australia"

Regards,
BH.

Can you give me some further info on that, refs etc

Cheers

[Mach E Avelli]

Geez, I always considered some of my fellow countrymen to be anal in matters pertaining to aviation, but this is bloody ridiculous. If the f...ing lights annoy you, don't look at them!

[rmcdonal]

Geez, I always considered some of my fellow countrymen to be anal in matters pertaining to aviation, but this is bloody ridiculous. If the f...ing lights annoy you, don't look at them!
If it was that easy they would. But when your parked up at 90deg to an aircraft at a holding point the light shines DIRECTLY into your eyes. Looking away doesn't exactly work at that point.

[Transition Layer]

spirax

Was it not the commercial dept that said it was best to have the cabin lights to dim for take-off and landing so the punters could enjoy the view or not be woken up on descent? Never mind that QF was one of the few carriers having a policy (up till then) of having the cabin lights on so as to make the a/c easier to see at night. Never mind the cabin safety advantages of having the lights on at that stage of flight! Just keep the punters happy!!!

It is my understanding that the reason the cabin lights are dimmed for take-off and landing, as they are done with Qantas, is because the cabin crew need to be able to see out in the event of an emergency before declaring their door a safe exit. Darker cabin = better ability to see what's going on outside, i.e. fire. I stand to be corrected though.

Nice one about "enjoying the view" but I don't think so.

[PyroTek]

could the lights be on during the takeoff/landing phases to inspect the wings in case of possible failure of leading edge flaps?
Just putting it out there...
Is it possible to actually inspect the wings from the flight deck?

[planedriver]

Unless your really streching the neck with the face against the glass, only the tips of the wings can be seen from normal seated position.

Good in theory re the flaps but the lights policy as stated above is purely increasing visibility to aid in the 'see and avoid' mentality.

Unfortunately as the light procedure is published as an opertaing policy there is very little leeway to vary from its form. Just because it is current policy dreamed up as 'worlds best practice' doesnt necessarily mean it is the best procedure for all circumstances. Whether it is a benefit or more of a distraction to other operators will only be known through feedback. My suggestion should anyone be impeded or distracted by the lights that QF use- put pen to paper in a safety report.

[spirax]

Transition Layer

It is my understanding that the reason the cabin lights are dimmed for take-off and landing, as they are done with Qantas, is because the cabin crew need to be able to see out in the event of an emergency before declaring their door a safe exit. Darker cabin = better ability to see what's going on outside, i.e. fire. I stand to be corrected though.

QF at one stage was receiving a lot of customer complaints re turning the cabin lights on during descent causing pax to "wake up"..!! Especially on long haul ops. They also wanted to be able to see the "view"....
As most other airlines of the day had them off for tkof & ldg, the commercial folk were of the view that the procedure was costing the company business. And since it was the front-end pax that made the noise they took notice. The safety and operational folk of the day conceded to that commercial pressure thing and the procedure changed.

The 3 main reasons for having the cabin lights on at low level as I understand were; increases ability of CC to observe cabin when all pax seated, increases chance of seeing fumes etc during that segment of flight and makes aircraft easier to see from outside... all a matter of opinion I guess?

The argument of having the cabin lights dim/off to improve eyesight in the event of light failure is said to be a myth. I understand it has been shown that in such circumstance the time taken for the average cc to adjust is measured in seconds even when the cabin lights went from max bright to off.

M A E
Geez, I always considered some of my fellow countrymen to be anal in matters pertaining to aviation, but this is bloody ridiculous. If the f...ing lights annoy you, don't look at them!

Not much chance of doing that when the aircraft with the lights on is behind you at the holding point and your world becomes like daylight!! Like I said: AIRMANSHIP!!

[Bullethead]

G'day Hedge,

The present order supercedes the original which may have had the references in it, I'll try and track it down and find out.

Regards,
BH.

[GaryGnu]

Hedge,

Try FAA AC120-74 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20120-74A/$FILE/AC120-74A.pdf) Section 8.

The first attempt at new Qantas SOPs for lights reflected this document fairly closely. However, after many comments by line crew about multiple switchings required at critical times the policy was revised.

In the context of this thread the "Wing Lights" (name may vary according to aircraft type) were originally only required on lining up. The revised policy requires them all times during taxi up to 10,000ft and vice versa on descent.

Personally, when on final approach I have found the increased visibility of aircraft on/entering runways with wing lights on quite marked.

[A37575]

Never ceases to amaze me how pilots leave their landing lights on at night in thick cloud where night vision is completely wrecked and the distraction of the back-lighting glare must surely affect crew concentration.

[Capt Fathom]

Obviously you are easily amazed !

[abc1]

Annoyance, lack of awareness or plain stupidity. Can someone in the know please explain why?
Having been blinded on numerous occasions I am yet to understand the logic behind the very use of the wing lights whilst taxying.

[Capt Kremin]

Annoyance, lack of awareness or plain stupidity.

Try company policy.

[KTM525]

or try "worlds best practice"..:ugh:What happened to airmanship?

[OneDotLow]

Without a reference....

ICAO published recommendations and this company policy is as a result of those recommendations.

[Transition Layer]

Feel free to join everyone else here (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/384463-qantas-737-wing-inspection-lights-take-off.html) in expressing your disgust.

Company policy which was designed in accordance with FAA and Euro recommendations. Not much we can do!

[fender]

Glad somebody brought it up. Please advise your management of the dangers to the rest of the aviation community, so you can get your SOP changed. It can be done.
TL, Spewwww.

[Sykes]

You opening with

Annoyance, lack of awareness or plain stupidity.

and later on...

I was merely trying to elicit a logical response,

ROFLMAO! :} :} :}

Maybe English isn't your first language. Open with an abusive and arrogant post, expect some "harsh" replies.

But you're not arrogant... :E :E

[Capt Kremin]

I think the point is that the QF drivers are only following the instructions issued by the owners of their particular train set.

We got the same accusations of arrogance when we were told not to flash landing lights at other aircraft when airborne. (a relic of pre-TCAS days).

Maybe if you didn't start with a presumption of arrogance or incompetence, the replies would have been more civil in return.

[C441]

If it's as bad as that use the appropriate channels to report it. Maybe then the relevant authorities may review the procedure worldwide - and possibly prevent a lot of name-calling....then again this is Pprune:rolleyes:

Incident report - second form down on the left (https://govforms.business.gov.au/SearchFormsBy.aspx?txtSearch=Accidents%20and%20injuries&txtSearchType=topic&SearchMode=1&BaseTopic=Employing%20and%20managing%20people)

[Tempo]

Glad somebody brought it up. Please advise your management of the dangers to the rest of the aviation community, so you can get your SOP changed. It can be done.

Fender,

Better yet....why don't you write to Peter Wilson (Chief Pilot) and you can list the dangers to the rest of the aviation community and try to get our SOPs changed.

[Keg]

Who else uses them again?

Been a while since I've operated internatinally but I recall seeing the following airlines with wing lights on at various stages.

BA, Singair, Thai, Air France, Malaysian, Philippine Air Lines, Lufthansa, Cathay, Air China, China southern, China Eastern, Cathay (although that may have been a one off), etc, etc.

Please advise your management of the dangers to the rest of the aviation community, so you can get your SOP changed. It can be done.

Strewth, lucky you told us on PPRUNE that this is what we should have done. We would never have thought of that on our own. :rolleyes: :ok: As noted by others, this is supposedly the 'norm' around the world and so the standard response is that we won't be changing it unless ICAO and the euro mob change their guidance.

It'll be another three or four weeks and we'll be doing this discussion all over again.

[Gear in transit]

If it's SOP then you're snookered, BUT I would have though some airmanship would dictate you switch it off if it's about to blind some poor guy you're taxiing past. I'm yet to see a company that doesn't use the taxi light, yet most guys usually switch it off if you're approaching head on as a courtesy until you've past!

[j3pipercub]

Just carry one of those 2 million candle power flashlights around with you. Next time you get blinded at the holding point, point and illuminate!!! You'll certainly get some attention...

[Wod]

Can't help myself.

ICAO Recommendation, taken up by FAA, Euro whatsy and whoever's in charge of Australian Regulation this week, and we're going to adhere to it, or not, depending on how we feel.?

Tad difficult to defend, I suspect:E

[maggot]

If it's SOP then you're snookered, BUT I would have though some airmanship would dictate you switch it off if it's about to blind some poor guy you're taxiing past. I'm yet to see a company that doesn't use the taxi light, yet most guys usually switch it off if you're approaching head on as a courtesy until you've past!


people talk about airmanship etc in this regard, saying turn the thing off but I'd suggest that there are bigger fish to be fried on that flight deck. It's not really the best place to run it by the skipper/explain why you aren't following SOPs (on the bloody rwy!). There are more important things going on for that crew (on the bloody rwy!) like, such as, R/T with ATC regarding line-up, t/o & departure instructions - then conferring any changes, a few other doozys our company make us do as we line up "lining up, 16R Foxtrot int." "confirmed, takeoff data checked", yep, better arm the runway update and turn on the strobes, reply to ATC clearing you for takeoff, confirming that with the skipper, ooops, better confirm that runway update to execute, and don't forget the ldg lights as the skipper hits TOGA and yells "handing over"! And thats on a straight forward day - yeah, I wanna add something extra in there, just to complicate things a little more... :ugh:

This policy is clearly far from optimal, as all this butthurt indicates. And it's probably worse by a 737 as those lights are very bright and at a bad angle (would love em as a taxi light, a little better than the 'torch'), but do you really think assuming these blokes(&blokettes) are just being arrogant and venting on pprune is the best strategy? Man up and put in some paper! Give the suckers in the office some work to do! :)

/rant. (bloody EPs study!!)

[abc1]

Sykes good to see that you have a firm grasp of the English lingo and one day that fact might earn you the privi to blind others or be blinded, 'till then tallyho.

Keg, it looks like it has been a while for you, but despite what the ''Eurochantels'' say, BA aren't lit up nor are the stateside carriers or any of the other carriers that you mention especially at Sydney, however logic seems to prevail over recommendations. It is a recommendation and not a mandate.
A change comes from within.I don't want to tarnish everyone at the Q with the same brush of illogic but the regulars on here seem to be out to justify the unjustifiable. Like most things it will take a lot of effort to change something through the channels especially if there is a lone voice.
PPRUNe might just be able to convey the message and evoke the logic from some in the know,wouldn't it?
Post a copy of this argument/plea in your crew room just like you have done with the post of the grateful passenger and his kid.

[Beg Tibs]

Numerous times I have been ready in turn for take off behind a Qantas 737

maybe it would be easier if you reported ready out of turn :ok:

[Keg]

You don't think this issue didn't get discussed on Qrewroom? It did. Line drivers lost. The end. It's over.

[maggot]

Sykes good to see that you have a firm grasp of the English lingo and one day that fact might earn you the privi to blind others or be blinded, 'till then tallyho.


geesmatey,maybeitwaswrittenintheonebreathofsomecrewtryingtod otherejobsafelywhilstontherunway

don't grasp the lingo too firmly now :rolleyes:

[Sykes]

Maybe we can get to funniest by the end of the night?? :\

Sykes good to see that you have a firm grasp of the English lingo and one day that fact might earn you the privi to blind others or be blinded, 'till then tallyho.

And tootle pip to you, old bean.

FWIW, the "light twins" I fly often find me being blinded by QF aircraft. What do I do?

I LOOK AWAY! :hmm:

I also realised that at the big Q, most people do as they are told, whether they agree or not. Ergo, if these a/c have their wing/ice lights on, then they are doing it because there has been a change in their SOP's. I'm pretty certain that the individual pilots don't get much of a say in these.

I don't want to tarnish everyone at the Q with the same brush of illogic but the regulars on here seem to be out to justify the unjustifiable.

Really? I don't see anyone here trying to justify anything. Q pilots are posting here EXPLAINING why they do it (against their wishes, it seems) and NOT justifying the practice!

They've also pointed out to you that they've also complained, etc, without any change to the policy!

PPRUNe might just be able to convey the message and evoke the logic from some in the know,wouldn't it?

English NOT your first language, and obviously lacking in how Q management react to suggestions from tech crew as well... :zzz:

keep it coming...

[abc1]

Laureate Sykes, Ai iz not trying to be funny, but thank you for thy suggestive,superlative and illuminating methodology.

[1279shp]

Mount Cook's ATR72's have white strobing beacons.

Typical fuzzy early morning at NZCH few weeks back, behind one at hold and had to ask atc to get him to turn it off. Was flashing straight at us as we are about his tail height.

Think they have a the ability to turn the tail one off and leave the belly one on.

They are easy to spot at night when everythings flashing.

Ever been close to an A380 - dunno how many 'wing lights' they have, but they are very Las Vegas like at night! Though the LED's are cool!:ok:

[Mysha Da Kat]

At PR it used to be SOP to turn on the wing lights along with the landing lights just before takeoff and leave them on until TOC. They came on again at TOD and stayed on until vacating the runway. This was applicable day and night!

Now they're on from pushback until 10,000 feet and from 10,000 feet until parking, but only at night.

Speculation about why the SOP was changed ranged from compliance with ICAO SARPs to saving money on light bulbs.