My-helicopter-hell-Pensioner-wants-ASBO

[Cpt_Pugwash]

I don't think this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199416/My-helicopter-hell-Pensioner-wants-Asbo-neighbour-ground-deafening-chopper-lands-40ft-window.html) has been posted previously.
I have so far resisted commenting on the website, I shall see how the story develops....

Pam Pringle used to love spending quiet time pottering around the garden.

But these days her sanctuary has been shattered – by the deafening roar of a helicopter.

One of Mrs Pringle's neighbours has started letting a friend land the craft on his back lawn.
The din and dust whipped up by the rotor blades have driven the 79-year-old grandmother of seven to distraction and she says her health is suffering.

She has tried to have an Asbo served on her neighbour, Peter Nash, and has taken legal advice on how to stop the landings but cannot afford to take him to court.

The 'deafening' two-seater aircraft arrives twice a week on average, she says, using a landing pad less than 40ft from her kitchen window.

It has taken off or landed four times in one day on at least one occasion, she says. 'It is a ghastly situation,' said Mrs Pringle, a widow.

'The wind-up time when it is taking off is between 12 and 15 minutes and it is very noisy.

'It builds to a crescendo and you couldn't hear a conversation indoors with the windows closed.'

She added: 'It is ruining my life. My garden used to be a great source of joy and pleasure to me.

'But the noise and dust mean it is impossible to be out there when the helicopter arrives or leaves and I have to keep my curtains closed for privacy.'

Mrs Pringle, who has four sons, moved into her £400,000 home in Blythburgh, Suffolk, in 1996.

Problems began in December 2007 when Mr Nash gave a friend, Bo Maggs, permission to land her Schweizer 269c helicopter in his garden.

Mrs Maggs makes the trips from her home in Shere, Surrey, 80 miles away to visit Mr Nash and the grave of her uncle.

Police initially told Mrs Pringle she could get an Asbo against Mr Nash. But the council investigated and told her that the noise the helicopter created, of 78.6 decibels, would probably not be high enough for a court to award an Asbo.
A decibel level of 80 is equivalent to heavy city traffic or a vacuum cleaner. Mrs Pringle, whose husband Robert was a company director, said: 'There is a heliport at Beccles 25 minutes away and I asked Mrs Maggs if she'd use it.

'She said it would be stupid to fly yourself to one place only to have to catch a taxi to another.
'I'm pretty tough and I despise using words like stress or depression but I am becoming unwell.'

The British Helicopter Association said helicopters on private flights can land an unlimited number of times where a landowner gives permission.

But its chief executive Peter Norton added that measuring noise did not necessarily reflect 'how the human ear hears' the racket created by a helicopter.

Mr Nash, a former BA steward who is in his 60s, was unavailable to comment yesterday.
Mrs Maggs, who has been flying helicopters for nearly 20 years and who runs a business called Helihire, said: 'I could fly in and out of Peter's garden all day if I want but I try to be reasonable. I have fitted an extra silencer to the machine and when I take off or land I avoid flying over houses.'

She added: 'Peter has a heart condition and had to go to hospital. He is still on medication and says my visits have helped his recovery.'

Legal experts said Mrs Pringle could ask her neighbour to enter into mediation to put conditions on the use of the landing area.

Failing that, she could issue civil proceedings over the 'nuisance' caused by her neighbour.

But Jacqui Joyce, a solicitor specialising in neighbour disputes, said: 'That will cost money and there is no guarantee the courts will come down in her favour.'

[airborne_artist]

Twice a week does sound a little high - twice in one week, perhaps, but >100 times a year - I doubt it.

Also reported in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5823292/Neighbours-in-dispute-over-helicopter-visits.html).

[biggles99]

I know Bo Maggs, and she hardly comes into the category of anti-social pilot.

She's the type of person that would be as considerate as possible, given the constraints of a noisy,slow 269.

Four times a day? Possibly, once, when taking neighbours or land-owners for "thank you flights".

Maybe she could offer the complainant, her children, her grandchildren a similar treat?

And offer the Press a similar, but alternative, experience..........

Big Ls.

[FLY 7]

I hought there was a '28 day rule' - ie you can operate from a domestic landing site for up to 28 days p.a., after which planning permission is required?

[TOT]

There is a 28 "movement rule" i.e. 14 take offs and 14 landings = 28.
that could be from YOUR piece of land, then you could do the same from your WIFE'S bit and your sons bit and so on. and then you have 84 movements.
Not to be confused with -

"within the curtillage of your garden regulation"
if you land "within the curtillage of your garden" there is no planning restriction on using your garden Helipad, ( assuming all other CAA rules are not contravened).. the "within your curtilliage of your garden bit" was recently dragged through endless planning meetings by heavy handed planning officers
( lets just say in Surrey) Eventually, after numerous very, very heated meetings the planning officers had to concede they were powerless!!!! They then had to break the bad news to the local anti heli brigade.!!!!!!! and confirm to the owner he could carry on!!!!! Which he does.

[Hughes500]

TOT

28 day rule is what it says, you can do anything you want on your land for 28 days per calender year ( except motor sport which is 14 days). Therefore you can do as many to's and landings as you want. However this rule is the land connected to the deeds so you cant break up a field into 10 owners for instance.
Having battled with dartmoor National Park for some 17 years and spent a fortune !!!

[Sewing Machine Man]

I think Bo Maggs should have at least extended the courtesy and asked
Mrs Pringle how she felt about living within what looks like 50yds from a small heliport.

If that was my old mum getting upset, the turds would be hitting the rotors.
:*

[61 Lafite]

Please.

From my reading of the article, the lady is talking about a normal frequency of twice a week - 4 movements. Assuming the (somewhat long sounding) 12-15 minutes, it is between 50 and 60 minutes of interruption in an 86,400 minute week, or an interruption of 0.05% of this person's peace and quiet, and that is assuming what appears to be a significantly extended startup and shutdown time.

I have no doubt that the lady genuinely is upset about this, but society is about taking a reasonable approach to everyone's rights and freedoms.

99.95% of the time, this lady gets exactly what she wants. But when someone else impinges on the way she likes the world to be, people start talking Asbos and ancient laws.

Anyone who lives near pub or any kind or working yard will get infrequent, occasional disturbances to their lives. Nobody is entitled to 100% of what they want to the exclusion of everyone else's freedom and liberty.

So this should be seen for what it is: an unreasonable attempt by one person to deny others the ability to do what they want to do, when they already get what they want a huge majority of the time.

My reading may be wrong, but this kind of aggressive denial of the freedom of ordinary people is what needs to be stopped, not the flying.

Lafite

[Sailor Vee]

if you land "within the curtillage of your garden" there is no planning restriction on using your garden Helipad,Surely this applies to the owner of both garden and machine, as it's a friend who is flying in and out that could be outwith the regulation.

Where is the esteemed Judge FL?

[thecontroller]

Mrs Pringle?

Bo Maggs?

Jacqui Joyce?

Surely these are made-up names?!

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Sadly this problem becomes the Brush that Tars us all as "Unreasonable" landing any sort of Helicopter in close to any neighbours building has to be viewed with some sort of septic eye, we are told(by the reporters in this case) that the pilot "Bo Maggs" has said she could land there all the time, that tars Mz Maggs with the title of an unreasonable person/pilot/woman.

We are told that we are able to land in any area that is large enough to take the heli we may be flying, indeed we all are taught close confine landing and take off, but to ignore near neighbours is tantamount to a declaration of "I'm all right Jack, you can Bugger off".

Very sadly it does stink of Mz Maggs being very very unreasonable!!
I thought as Heli pilots we are supposed to be deep thinkers and planners, seems a new breed are around!:=
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb/2

[Tarman]

It's amazing just how many complainers change their view of helicopters once they've had a free ride on one and seen their house /village from the air.
Suddenly the pilot is seen as a good guy/gal instead of a pest. It's got to be worth the £50 it will cost. Even if the offer isn't taken up it opens up a friendly dialogue.

[Whirlygig]

Very sadly it does stink of Mz Maggs being very very unreasonable!!
Because that's the slant the journalist wants to present.

Cheers

Whirls

[David Clarke]

Mother-in-law lives near Blythburgh, its thankfully a bit more than 80 miles from Harrow, yet alone Surrey! I think the neighbour should post some pictures on the views from the cockpit (next door) thread.:=

Dave

[parabellum]

Why would you want to visit your uncle's grave twice a week?:confused:

[SASless]

I thought as Heli pilots we are supposed to be deep thinkers and planners, seems a new breed are around

That is heavy breathers and slow thinkers.....thank you very much!

Now why would you think the helicopter pilot is the unreasonable one in this matter?

Daft old thing is just looking for something to talk to people about.....and this is just an easy target. If it wasn't the helicopter it would be the neighbor's trees overhanging her garden and dropping leaves upon it....or perhaps the neighbor's fence needs mending.....heavens knows what she would think if the neighbors had teen aged children.

[61 Lafite]

She added: 'It is ruining my life. My garden used to be a great source of joy and pleasure to me.

'But the noise and dust mean it is impossible to be out there when the helicopter arrives or leaves and I have to keep my curtains closed for privacy.'


Well heaven help her when, god forbid, there is a thunderstorm or it just rains. I mean - how unreasonable is it when you feel you can't be in your garden 100% of the times you want to be there?

And as for anyone passing by the front of the house who might be able to see in? got to stop that too! Close the road! move the neighbours out!

Lafite.

[XV666]

But the council investigated and told her that the noise the helicopter created, of 78.6 decibels, would probably not be high enough for a court to award an ASBO.

From what I can tell, Mrs Maggs has gone to the trouble of having a silencer fitted that brings the helicopter noise to a level somewhere between that of a vacuum cleaner, and standing 5 metres away from a busy road reference here. (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm) Other comparisons are the maximum noise limit for a snowmobile under Wisconsin laws (78dB), or the stated Safe Level for a child hearing through ear defenders/hearing protectors (78dB) :eek: (US Department of Health)

And the beat up about 12-15 minutes per session :rolleyes: Having got nowhere with the Council, I suspect that the poor old dear is now turing to popular support to justify her case.

What a sad state of affairs :sad:

[chevvron]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the substantial leylandii hedge between the back gardens; surely it masks the noise from the downstairs where her kitchen must be?

[Sewing Machine Man]

Bhaa!! Just a couple of hens clucking at each other ..



Must be a woman thing :- Arms folded tightly, lips pursed. “You cant land that thing here”.. “Can if I want”
;)

[chevvron]

Pure supposition now, but looking at that hedge in the Daily Mail article, it's neatly pruned on Mrs Pringle's side but obviously has been trimmed to a certain height. Now I wonder which household is responsible for this hedge, and if there has been a dispute recently where the hedge has had to be trimmed on council orders. This might account for her bitterness towards Mr Nash, but as I said, pure speculation on my part.

[Bronx]

chevvron

If we're gonna speculate I wonder why Mr Nash has put a helipad 'H' on his lawn. To irritate the old lady even more?

VfrpilotPB/2 makes a lotta sense. :ok:
We love helicopters. Not everyone does especially when they frequently land that close to their houses. Making enemies when you dont need to is stupid.

Maybe the old lady should suggest the IRS investigates whether HeliHire is genuinely a trading company or a tax fiddle?

[SASless]

What's wrong with an "H" as an aiming mark to assist in the safety of the operation?:ugh:

I see that as a sign of trying to do things as safely as possible.:D

A low blow to suggest turning the "Tax Man" loose on your neighbor.....that is worse than burning his house down around his ears in my view!:=

But what else could we expect from a "Damn Yankee" from New York!:rolleyes:

[chevvron]

By the way, the article says it's a 2 seater; isn't a 269 a 3 seater?

[FLY 7]

CB and CBi are 2-seaters, C can be configured as a 2 or 3-seater.

[birrddog]

But what else could we expect from a "Damn Yankee" from New York!:rolleyes:
Now now Sassy, we're not all bad.

I support the idea of landing in my back yard....

Personally though I'd be concerned if my aircraft would still be there if I landed in Central Park and left it for a few hours :p

[SASless]

Birddog,

I am loathe to travel north of Richmond....Virginia except to visit Marse Robert's old home in Arlington!

While sat on a wall at the Cemetery in Gettysburg where Abe gave that speech....busload of folks from down by Thoirty-Thoid Street and the Bawlpak....wandered down my way. They were commenting about the grand tribute all those grave markers were to the gallant sacrifice of the Union dead. They were not amused when I suggested I saw it as fitting tribute to Southern Marksmanship!;)

[jimjim1]

Thing is, for decades it has been known that NOTAR (Coandă effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%83_effect)) helicopters are quieter than other types but this is apparently of exactly no significance to the purchasers or operators.

I can clearly recall noticing a London HEMS MD900 machine for the first time and being astonished how quiet it was - I had no idea what was going on, I noticed a helicopter but it was simply unreasonably quite. A bit of googling later I discovered the explanation. As long as owners and operators choose unnecesarily noisy equipment then you should be prepared to pay the price by being denied access. If *you* sort yourselves out then fewer problems may result.

Obviously, I doubt that very many readers here will be interested in these views, however I suspect that in the long term that it will be your loss.

When I am Dictator, I will ban all tail rotor helicopters from populated areas.

[mickjoebill]

"landing 40 feet from her kitchen window"

What are the rules regarding how close we can land with permission of landowner but in close proximity to another property?

Mickjoebill

[Nf stable]

Ahh, JimJim, that almost seems like Trolling. I'm sure that if Mrs Miggins (may as well keep the funny names coming) could afford to buy and run an MD900, then she would not be flying around in the 269.

Did you write that post, or did your butler do it for you?

[Whirlygig]

jimjim, you are rather pre-supposing that the operator or owner has a vast choice of NOTAR aircraft from which to choose. There are only a couple of MOTAR helicopters and those are at the high end of the market.

So maybe when you're Dictator, you should force the manufacturers and deisgners to produce cheap and reliable NOTAR models, then the consumer would have a genuine choice.

Cheers

Whirls

[SASless]

Darn, if my current Dictator hears of this.....we will have yet another emergency crisis program for him to add to his growing list of imperatives!

But....would this be change I can believe in?

[verticalhold]

Right head right above the parapet.

I earn my living as a helicopter pilot, I live 1100m from this landing site inthe next vllage. I have no problem wih either the 269 or R44 which I have seen and heard landing, I just wonder why the pilots have taken little notice of the BHAB code of good conduct. I Have never met any of the people named in the articles, but I am irritated by the lack of airmanship and good "neighbourliness" I have witnessed on the part of the pilots concerned.

They seem incapable of going straight to their site without telling the rest of us they have arrived. I do get thoroughly p***ed off when I go into my local pub to be interrogated about whether what is going on is either legal or safe and whether it is one of my pilots.

Helicopter pilots have a duy of care to fly in the most considerate manner possible, I suggest that this has not been the case here. Maybe some basic human decency towards Mrs Pringle could save a lot of grief for the rest of us who have to earn a living from helicopters and are used to flying with the utmost care for the public in mind. (interestingly I can find no records of Heli-Hire with the CAA anywhere)

[Runway101]

In Switzerland, for private flights, the rule is that you can basically land wherever you want (with that annual permission you get for a few bucks), but not more often than twice a month at the same location.

I always assumed that the reason for this was to avoid exactly these kind of problems that Mrs Pringle has, and to avoid some private pilot setting up a private helipad in his garden for daily use.

I find that Swiss approach a very reasonable solution. At least better than Germany, where landing outside an airport for a private flight ends with the pilot being handcuffed ;)

[Bronx]

verticalhold

Good post. Good points. :ok:

Nobody likes Nimbies but when I saw how close the helicopter lands to her house I had a lotta sympathy for the old lady.
If it was just a very rare event that would be different.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/14/article-1199416-05B336C5000005DC-744_634x286.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/14/article-1199416-05B22813000005DC-133_634x434.jpg


The pilot comes across as arrogant and her friend she visits is no better.

Being inconsiderate to neighbors is stupid as well as selfish because it damages our cause.


.

[mickjoebill]

Forgive me..
I cant tell from the photo if the house is doubled glazed...

If it isn't, how would the press and public respond to a large group of sympathetic pilots pitching in to double glaze the front of the old dears property...
Would help keep her warm in winter too.....


Mickjoebill

[Nigd3]

Got to agree with Bronx and Vertical hold on this one.
A little common sense and courtesy is missing from the pilot.
I remember my instructor telling me to avoid a farm as much as I could that was on the approach to the local airfield, as the farmer got p1ssed when helis flew over it. "Although he can't really do anything about the flights over his land it's always better to live with your neighbours than butt up against them................plus he owns a shotgun"

[parabellum]

The paddock behind the gardens looks fairly big and down to hay, couldn't they get permission to clear an heli-pad there, say 100yards away from the houses?

[topendtorque]

Got to agree with Bronx and Vertical hold on this one.


definately

and looking at the windsock / flag and also the branches on the trees I'd suggest that the goodly neighbour cops a fair downdraft of noise an' all whenever madam pilot picks up and puts a bit of pedal in to climb away into wind over the trees to the right hand side of the pic.

farmer bloggs's hay paddock should make a good pad, just remember to cut the oats there back a good bit first. There's quite a few 269's in central oz that burnt in long grass.

IMHO that madam pilot got her photo in the paper?????????????????????? five seconds of etc, etc.

[FH1100 Pilot]

I don't know...that LZ looks awfully close to the neighbor's house...you have to sympathize with the cranky old dingbat at least a little.
But imagine if it was a 47 landing there instead of that (relatively) quiet 269? Holy cow.
When I fly, I always assume that the people down below me *hate* the sound of helicopters. I'd rather be wrong about that than assume the reverse and be wrong about that.

[Planemike]

The paddock behind the gardens looks fairly big and down to hay, couldn't they get permission to clear an heli-pad there, say 100yards away from the houses?

On seeing the photograph, that was my initial reaction too.


Forgive me..
I cant tell from the photo if the house is doubled glazed...

If it isn't, how would the press and public respond to a large group of sympathetic pilots pitching in to double glaze the front of the old dears property...
Would help keep her warm in winter too.....



Double glazing, the type used to keep houses warm, does virtually nothing to create any form of sound proofing. To provide any measure of sound proofing the air gap needs to be about 10 cms........

Planemike

[topendtorque]

But imagine if it was a 47 landing there instead of that (relatively) quiet 269? Holy cow.


holy cow indeed

granted a straight stack 540 is veeeery loud, followed slowly by a straight out 435. for my money that is on a par with any 269 if not quiter than them, and of course the '47's get a lot quieter from there. 3B1's, to full on muffled types, none of which I have seen on 269's.

Holy Cow indeed, FH1100's aren't all quiet either.

[Flying Lawyer]

Sailor Vee Where is FL?I'm not allowed to advise on the law but ..... if there was a loophole such as you suggest then the law would be bizarre.


_________


A general comment, purely as a helicopter pilot and therefore interested in the restrictions which already exist and concerned about further restrictions which could be introduced:

Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean it's sensible to do it.
Doing something for short-term personal enjoyment may increase the size of the anti lobby and, in consequence, damage the long-term interests of helicopter pilots generally.

.

[SASless]

I'm surprised the old bitty has not complained about the Flag Pole!

I would think that being a 24 hour deal that would be more of a nuisance than the occasional helicopter.

The flapping, snapping, and such wind caused racket that would make would be a more reasonable complaint to me.

Not to mention....how unsightly it is!

It's not like he is flying the National Colours either!

FL,

Is not the use of Sharia Law instead of established law in the UK as odd as that Sailor Vee invites?

[rotorboater]

Bizarrely you need planning permission for a flag pole in the UK!

[Helibloke]

If I was sitting in my back yard having a beer with a few mates and that Helicopter arrived within 50ft of me the pilot better have a carton of beer with them. If not I would be complaining just like the lady in the article.

My opinion is it's too close to the neighbour and not a suitable HLS for frequent use.

Bloke

[VfrpilotPB/2]

As I said on page one.... Unreasonable flying, creates problems for the rest of us!
Why risk close confines when there is a nice big Cow pasture within yards, seems a no brainer!:ugh::ugh:

Peter R-B
Vfrpilot

[kevin_mayes]

Hmmm, but you can only land on agricultural land for a period of twenty eight days a year... Where as a garden is avaliable all year for you and ANY visiting heli.

Had this problem with my 47 in our one acre field way, away at the back of the house, the planning lot didn't like it and served an enforcement order on us even though I only used it every three weeks or so, forcing us to move to a house three doors up with a larger garden, now the 47 sits proudly in the front garden in full view... mind you I spent some time with the new couple from next door and arranged a flight for one of them, he loved it and we have no complaints - wonder why...

Strangely all the complaints that I did have in the village here all seem to be from people that have recently moved in, knowing I had a helicopter and other odd hobbies, having said that they also complain about the street lights, yellow lines, tourist, litter, price of fish, need I go on? Then they get the lawn mower and strimmer out for three hours every Sunday afternoon!

Kevin.

[fluffy5]

I agree with the old lady on this one, who ever the pilot is, or how long they have been flying for. The simple fact is that helicopter is far to close to the neighbours house, any incident or accident can quite easily cause damage to the neighbours property or injury if the lady was outside. C'mon this is basic logic for a pilot. For the law that states you can, does not mean you should, LOOK at the safety implications.
And if the pilot says that sort of thing would not happen to me, then we already know. Its the kind of basic thought process if the aircraft is going to misbehave seriously now, is it safe for me to land 50ft away from a little old lady cutting a her hedge.!!!!
If these guys wanted to land and take off, even before attempting, full dimplomacy should have been taken to smooth the way.

[mickjoebill]

Double glazing, the type used to keep houses warm, does virtually nothing to create any form of sound proofing. To provide any measure of sound proofing the air gap needs to be about 10 cms........


Double glazing does virtually nothing?
Gatwick and Heathrow have schemes to subsidise instalation of double glazing as part of their residential noise insulation scheme.

BAA Heathrow noise website: FAQ's - night noise (http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/page/HeathrowNoise%5EConsultation+and+schemes%5ENight+noise+insul ation+scheme%5EFAQ's/5514aa1f9f1d5110VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/)

One of the options is
"A fifty per cent contribution to high specification double glazed PVCu replacement windows, specially designed to reduce noise levels"



Mickjoebill

[blakmax]

OK Guys,

I'm no helicopter offcionando, but looking at the pictures, if that thing landed in my back yard, it is so ugly I would at least throw a bucket of water over it. No wonder the old girl is so depressed. Some recent postings on other threads from Australia have identified a local method for handling offensive helicopter landings...send in the crocodiles I say!

Toungue firmly in cheek.

blakmax

[JulieAndrews]

Might I suggest that the HLS does not fulfill basic requirement of safe aviation practice?
ie 30m from nearest obstacle etc
Poor judgement by pilot IMHO - both in not taking the old girl for a flight and in choosing such a site in first place.
As FL mentioned - all because you can do it does not mean that you should - especially if you want to do it again again again

[SASless]

Julie,

Where do you get your information from?

I believe you will find your rule would prevent most off shore landing sites from being used....as it would some lighthouses, most private sites, and more than a few heliports. I know for a fact it would prevent most bush flying.