Mode-S - CAA's decision

[gpn01]

Can be found at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1/Mode%20S%20decision%20-%20In%20Focus.pdf

[englishal]

Thanks....

Looks reasonable and fair to me...

[Pace]

The writing appears to be on the wall for gliders. Reading between the lines it is obvious that they will be further restricted into specific and notamed areas in class G and only a veiled reference to when traffic allows and with prior permission for other airspace. So maybe mode S for all?

Pace

[Fitter2]

Where does 'specific and notamed' come in, Pace. The document clearly says that Mode s carriage for all aircraft (not just gliders) applies to Class A to C airspace only. Even for Class D (which gliders get clearance to use when appropriate) Mode S (or indeed any transponder) is not required. Gliders will (from 2012) need Mode S to use Class A, but I wasn't planning a cross country through the London Control Zone, so no change there.

All Class G airspace continues to be 'free for all', VMC and IMC. You may prefer otherwise, but the ANO will not change that

In passing, I am pleased to note that any applications for TMZ status will have to go through the full airspace change procedure.

[Pace]

An extension of the transponder carriage regulations to include gliders with effect from 6 April 2012. Alongside this proposed regulatory change, the CAA will continue to encourage the use of Letters of
Agreement between gliding organisations and ATC units to permit access to airspace without transponders in specified
circumstances where safety and efficiency issues can be managed appropriately. The current arrangements will
continue to be applied for permitting gliding activity without transponders when operating in a designated gliding area.
The CAA will also work with the gliding associations and other stakeholders to explore the feasibility of providing
specific, notified areas of Class G airspace at and above FL 100 where gliders could still be allowed to operate without
an SSR transponder.

Fitter2 i dont read this as meaning no changes at all but a steady extension of restrictions. Note the start of the section An extension of the transponder carriage regulations to include gliders with effect from 6 April It does not say to EXCLUDE gliders and there is NO mention of in IMC. I am pleased you are so confident.

Pace

[Rod1]

The Doc says;

“The decision means that there is no current requirement for all aircraft to carry Mode S transponders in all UK airspace.”

In Class G outside a TMZ there is still no transponder required, mode C can continue.

This is almost the current position guaranteed beyond 1012, good result! Looks like I will be able to put off my mode s upgrade indefinably:ok:

Rod1

[Fitter2]

Fitter2 i dont read this as meaning no changes at all but a steady extension of restrictions. Note the start of the section
Quote:
An extension of the transponder carriage regulations to include gliders with effect from 6 April
It does not say to EXCLUDE gliders and there is NO mention of in IMC. I am pleased you are so confident.

This is all in the section referring to Class A to C. At present there are local agreements for gliders operating in Class A to C (West of Luton, for example) and the document indicates that such arrangements may continue. There is also the issue of airspace above FL100. CAA originally proposed mandatory Mode S for Gliders above FL100, and this is still under discussion.

there is NO mention of in IMC.Quite.

There is still a section of the CAA Mode S lobby that continues to ignore the growing evidence that transponders are not the answer to the problems being addressed, but a more rational approach is slowly filtering through.

Please read the full document carefully for what it actually says (and more important, what it does not say).

[Pace]

Quite.

There is still a section of the CAA Mode S lobby that continues to ignore the growing evidence that transponders are not the answer to the problems being addressed, but a more rational approach is slowly filtering through.


Fitter2 with all respect what is the growing evidence and what would you replace Mode S with?

Mode S for good or bad is a universal standard.

Whatever we have has to be universal and to a standard. We cannot have half a million devices for seperation in cloud to suit every taste even when those devices are flawed.

At huge cost people fit TICAS as a standard for cloud work. If you know something better great but it has to be universal and not flawed.

One very kind glider pilot here has offered to take me gliding. My fear is I will take to it and knowing me would want to fly high.

I also Scuba dive. Dive deep and you have to use special gas mixes and have special training.
Do it on compressed air and you are asking for trouble.

20 years back before we knew any better I dived to over 70 metres on compressed air. Shear madness and risk! but things move on technology changes and you cannot take the attitude of "thats the way its always been so thats the way it should always be".

In the same way cloud fly and you need to have the right kit and training,no kit or training then in my opinion keep out.

I know that if I was a high flying glider pilot I would be looking over the next couple of years carefully at kitting my glider to cloud fly with relative safety not just for myself but others who I share the clouds with. Some gliders fly with mode S. Others are not capable! there could be an arguement that if they are not capable they should not fly IMC any more than a homebuilt powered aircraft which is not allowed to fly IMC?

Its easy to moan and shout "my rights" not so easy to come forth with a universal working solution so what is yours? If its Flarm then suggest to the CAA that they abandon Mode S and fit flarm as the standard to the likes of Easyjet etc.

Pace

[tggzzz]

Pace writes:
Fitter2 with all respect what is the growing evidence and what would you replace Mode S with?With reservations, a starting point is the experience of Mode S at Schiphol, e.g. http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/368887-dutch-ban-mode-s-under-schiphol-cas.html

One very kind glider pilot here has offered to take me gliding. My fear is I will take to it and knowing me would want to fly high.Do take him up on the offer. You'll remember the experience. Can I suggest you have a winch launch rather than an aerotow - more fun and significantly different to other takeoffs.

Why would you want to fly high when all the interesting stuff happens low down. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating) :)