White Waltham

[KERDUNKER]

Keep it short but it would appear pilots only welcome if arriving by air............... by car, as I was today, in the area with my son we were refused entry but welcome by air!! (not being a member of the club) Have been flying in for lunch/breakfast on average 3 times per month for the past few years. Firsy flew in 19 years ago....

Question: I could have been potentialy £40,000 + worth of punter who would now be looking elsewhere...................... Which is exactely what I did 20 years ago after being ignored by reception staff at another ( long gone) club............. Do we ever learn?

As an aside I was intending to eat lunch there and I believe the restaurant is not part of the club and so revenue lost for a third party.:mad:

[BEagle]

I can understand your frustration; indeed the WLAC website West London Aero Club - Bar and Catering (http://www.wlac.co.uk/bar_and_catering.htm) states:

The bar offers a warm welcome to all members and visitors. Breakfast is served from 8am until noon and is worth flying in for. In good weather we can offer the delight of eating alfresco on the lawn in the front of the clubhouse, stay long enough and you will experience one of the most beautiful sunsets in the country.


To me, this is somewhat ambiguous - 'visitors' does seem to imply that anyone 'visiting' is welcome whether arriving by land, sea or sky. OK, perhaps forget sea.

A polite note to WLAC requesting clarification would seem appropriate. Mention that you were rather disappointed to have been refused admission, particularly since you have been a regular flying visitor for quite some time.

Equally, one can well imagine that uncontrolled numbers of visitors would seriously annoy Club members and that, of course, should be respected.

I once planned to fly to WW to meet a friend for lunch (she of Pink Headset fame!) who was driving from London. The weather was horrible, so I drove instead. When I arrived, I signed in and went straight to the bar manager and said "I was intending to fly in to meet a friend who's coming here for lunch, but I've had to drive due to the weather - will it still be OK for us to have lunch?". No problem. And the fish and chips were great!!

But WLAC could usefully clarify the club house admission rules on their website, I do agree.

I've been going to WLAC for nearly 40 years - I plan to go there on the 40th anniversary of my first ever visit as a ULAS student later this year. It's always been a wonderful place!

[18greens]

Got to agree the visitor policy is bizzare. Anything that gets cash behind the bar can only be good given how often the caterers bail out. I understand the policy started when certain members could not get a seat because of 'outsiders' If the club members didn't drape their coats and bags over every spare chair then stand at the bar all day the issue may be different.

You could always say you are thinking of learning to fly and want some information. That should get you past the gatekeepers. You could also join as a social member, or say you are on your way to pay your landing fee- that will throw them.

I must say they have become much more customer focussed recently having got rid of several of their sales prevention tools. (Quote often heard: "You can only fly here if you are good enough....")

[KERDUNKER]

Thanks for making me feel better.............. I do think that it is one of the best places (airfields) to be by a long chalk.... was gobsmacked....... calm now........... but I must say that I fly all over the world and spend down time seeking out and visiting local flying clubs and have never been turned away............. How much money has been inadvertantly lost to another club or to aviation, period with this policy......... compare this attitude with:


Shoreham
Popham
Sandown
Bembridge
Compton Abbas
Headcorn etc etc

Visitors should be encouraged, after all if not potential customers they could become the next protester against what is deemed to be an elitist pursuit.

[Phoenix09]

It was the Summer Ball at White Waltham yesterday and I know that they were snowed under getting ready for that. That could have been the reason that you were refused entry.

I will bring this thread to the attention of the airfield management today and seek some clarification.

[stickandrudderman]

A business that thinks it's OK to turn people away in this economic climate?
Unbelievable!
There's no such thing as a business with too much work, only ones that are poorly organised can't cope.

[Torque Tonight]

As a member of WLAC I would be embarrassed if a visitor was turned away without good reason and I would hope that an appropriate level of hospitality was extended.

WLAC is not like your average flying club though. To compare with Kerdunker's example of Shoreham, which I also use regularly, WLAC is closer to a traditional private members' club. At somewhere like Shoreham, despite having very good facilities and being very accessible to visitors, there is virtually no spirit or community feel. Club members barely know each other and have little more in common than just paying bills at the same tills.

WLAC does provide have a strong sense of commumnity, camaraderie etc. People get to know each other and socialise together. Sometimes it even reminds me a little of my time on RAF squadrons or in an Officers' Mess. Shoreham just does not compare.

These benefits of membership come at a fairly considerable price but one which overall I consider to be worthwhile. As a paying member I would be somewhat put out if I could not make full use of the facilities because the club was swamped by non-paying visitors. I am sure that the bar and lawn would become an absolute free-for-all if access was unrestricted.

I am sure this was not the case when you visited and I would hope that as many guests as possible could be welcomed in but a line would have to be drawn somewhere.

[rusty sparrow]

I've recently joined - I visited at during a weekday a couple of times beforehand and found it very friendly. Not been there during a busy day yet though.

[percy prentice]

What's the problem. It is a members only club. If you fly in you pay landing fees & therefore you are welcome to use all the facilities. Why not pay to become a social member if you pop in there by car. The rules there are different but the airfield is different & is a fantastic place to relax & enjoy.

[eharding]

What's the problem. It is a members only club. If you fly in you pay landing fees & therefore you are welcome to use all the facilities. Why not pay to become a social member if you pop in there by car. The rules there are different but the airfield is different & is a fantastic place to relax & enjoy.

Absolutely - and I understand there have been a number of cases recently of random members of the general public turning up and generally treating the place like a public picnic park, which has led to a slightly more structured approach to checking membership.

Of course, Bentley the club Collie was originally hired to check that everyone was adhering to the membership policy, but the fatal mistake was allowing him to write his own job description - as I've remarked elsewhere, the result was 17 pages of closely typed A4 text (difficult if you've got paws) which repeated the words

"Throw the ball.....throw the ball...throw the ball..."

...and, 17 pages later....

"...just throw the bleeeeeedin' ball, will you?"

[BEagle]

....and I understand there have been a number of cases recently of random members of the general public turning up and generally treating the place like a public picnic park....

Wretched oiks! Don't they know their place? I hope that their ignorant behaviour won't cause any unnecessary restrictions on others.

[eharding]

Wretched oiks! Don't they know their place? I hope that their ignorant behaviour won't cause any unnecessary restrictions on others.

It's OK Beags, there's no chance you'll be mistaken for a random oik - your photo has been circulated to Bentley and the new Deputy Security Collie - she's the one you need to worry about....

[DX Wombat]

new Deputy Security Collie - she Bryn would like a full description, photo and introduction as soon as possible please :E
He's still having difficulty posting here but can log in without any problem. :(
I have driven in twice now (a much safer option than having me try to land there) :ooh: and been made very welcome. I was, however, meeting friends who are members there.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ummmm. Once a long time ago when I was flying almost incessantly at WW, one Maurice Looker gave me free membership to the club in perpetuity. Wonder if that still stands? ;)

[Vino Collapso]

Some interesting points raised by this thread.

Certainly, if you have paid to join a club then you expect the benefits of a private club.

But aviation is very good at scoring own goals and excluding the public will not help when fighting Nimbys or when trying to increase club membership/aviation enthusiasm.

Is there nowhere that a public viewing enclosure could be created? GA should be encouraging public interest.

[18greens]

Public viewing enclosure - I though that was what the car park was for??

[BentleyTheDog]

"Throw the ball.....throw the ball...throw the ball..."

...and, 17 pages later....

"...just throw the bleeeeeedin' ball, will you?"
Oi Harding, you got a problem with that?

[JW411]

KERDUNKER:

You could always have offered to pay the usual landing fee and then you might have been more welcome.

[DX Wombat]

Oi Harding, you got a problem with that?He probably wanted that as his own job description but he'll no doubt forgive you if you buy him a curry*. ;)
*At least once a week for the foreseeable future

[Martin @ EGLK]

My experience of WW mirrors that of KERDUNKER.

I popped in about a month ago to view the notice board & grab a cold drink & was told that I couldn't.

Never been back since & never will. There may well be some interesting shares available but who's going to find out about them? Not me!

[jez d]

Perhaps you should make use of the pilot shop when visiting. Presumably it's not limited to members only and WLAC security will let you on site to buy a new chart, or some such?

[TCU]

Interesting dilema for the club. I guess like many others, I didn't just walk in and become a member at WW but sort of "transitioned" over a period of time:

1) Flew in once and liked what I saw
2) Live fairly locally, so popped in once or twice for a superb sunset beer
3) Flew in again
4) Fancied advancing my skills (IMC) so finally joined

the above perhaps over a period of two years.

Have now been a member for a couple of years and can't think of many better places in the SE to fly (Compton and Andrewsfield perhaps being comparable in terms of club atmosphere/facilities?).

Vino, the "public" can simply sit in their cars on the bit of grass next to the members carpark and view, but appreciate it is not the same as popping in for a pint of Marlow bitter

[percy prentice]

Never been back since & never will. There may well be some interesting shares available but who's going to find out about them? Not me!

If you find a share of a Waltham based aircraft you will have to pay for full flying membership!.... but you will get free landing fees.

So refusing to go there you can have a wry smile every time you drive past & whilst thinking how much you are saving not going there!

[False Capture]

KERDUNKER,

Next time just say: "it's all right, I'm a friend of Bob Davy" :E

[Vino Collapso]

Vino, the "public" can simply sit in their cars on the bit of grass next to the members carpark and view, but appreciate it is not the same as popping in for a pint of Marlow bitter

Then that is good, but is there a mechanism where interested members of the public can leave the car park enquire about learning to fly?

[midnight retired]

As a former Manager and Instructor at a Northwest Flying School I cannot let the chance of meeting and encouringing a potential new member being barred and going off to the competition. I would suggest that it is in the best interest of everyone to enable the general publc access to the flying schools in order to meet and greet and promote the interest of potential members to the mutual benefit of everyone.

[Jim59]

My club used to have all the usual notices at the entrance including the words Club, Private, Danger of..., Low Flying Aircraft - you all know what I mean. We rebranded the Club as a Centre to make it sound more inclusive, removed the inappropriate signage and replace it with Visitors Welcome, Information and Trial lessons available, Enquire at... etc. We added signs showing the way to the office and car park to keep people safe.

Even private clubs need new members from time to time!

[Almost]

Ive visited many times by air, what a great place it is, to eat in the excellent restaurant and meet up with friends.

Two years ago I visited Aero Expo at Wycombe via car as our aircraft was U/S. On the way back south we decided it would be a good place to visit for lunch on a wonderful sunny day. I was accosted by the membership checkers and made to feel very second class but my words of persuasion got us both in.

Its bit of a dilemma - its a private club and I fully appreciate that. However if I was a potential paying customer I could have been put off for life had I not been as persuasive.

I wonder if they could offer temporary membership for the day (at cost) – reap some extra revenue and possibly drive some more future business?

[percy prentice]

Next time just say: "it's all right, I'm a friend of Bob Davy"

Hey False Capture

I thought you were trying to give advise on how to get into the club & not how to get a lifetime ban !

Offers of food sponsorship to certain members could be an idea, eh what eharding? ....Oh you are fully booked for the next 6 months on that sponsorship scheme are you :ok:

[cockney steve]

[QUOTE][I wonder if they could offer temporary membership for the day (at cost) – reap some extra revenue and possibly drive some more future business?/QUOTE]

Essentially, that would appear to be what you get in a landing -fee, IE use of all members' facilities including one landing and one departure...

As a private club, there has to be some way of filtering out undesirables. (otherwise the "private" aspect would be redundant)

First filter is undoubtedly the arrival method. Afellow pilot is likely to "fit in" anyway, and extension of facilities to a fellow-aviator is a given...........so, the issue revolves around
"Non-Airborne visitation"....."blagging" your way in , is IMHO, churlish and poor form.
As others have posted, offering to pay a Landing-fee, should satisfy honour.

Perhaps WW could look at their constitution and perhaps afford "Day-Membership" for a fee, to those showing a pilot's license in their name*

As a former Yacht-club member, we were automatically affiliated to the RYA and could expect acceptance at any other RYA affiliated sailing establishment, anywhere.

My last club now has a "day-membership" which allows non-members to sail on the Club's waters (subject to insurance etc.) and use the facilities. The fee is such that any more than about 3 visits per annum , makes it cheaper to join, though there is also a restriction on number of visits in any 12-month period.


You don't have to be Elitist, there are work-rounds without alienating the core-membershipto whom the committee should communicate the value of this extra revenue.

* Would allow former airmen to visit....My sister recently moved from a bungalow backing onto WW and her partner served at WW (as a secretary) during Nat. Service.He did get the odd jolly, though.

[Dawdler]

Two years ago I visited Aero Expo at Wycombe via car as our aircraft was U/S. On the way back south we decided it would be a good place to visit for lunch on a wonderful sunny day. I was accosted by the membership checkers and made to feel very second class .


You always get'em, the little men with lots of power. Some years ago, I turned up at the gates of a private club (A boat club in this case). I was refused entry by the harbourmaster, who, had he bothered to read his mail, would have learnt that I was actually doing the club a favour, by donating some equipment for which they had a need. My protestation that my visit had been authorised by the committee fell on deaf ears and he stood his ground.

I could not physically turn my vehicle around in the space available. So I stood my ground. Impasse!

Luckily the Chairman turned up and let me in and I understand later "had a word" with the harbourmaster about reading his daily orders. I later joined the club and spent many years on the committee.

DLTBGYD

D.

[Dawdler]

Definitely. It was the boat club's own premises. It was not a coastal "harbour", more an inland marina exclusively for the use of the members of the club.

[KERDUNKER]

landing on 09L this mornining and so flew over WW, looking down at the field felt sad , days off now so proper aeroplane out and coffee at Compton Abbas I suppose............... Whos Bob Davy........... is he the owner;)

As an aside, years ago taking part in an airshow at West Malling, arrived by road and had to pay Adolf on the gate the entrance fee!!! (Mass drop from DC3s)

[TheGorrilla]

Just say you've turned up to attend the eating contest, to beat eharding to the bottom of the specials board. This will ensure instant respect and carve you a path straight to the bar.

P.s.... Good luck! :E

[drambuster]

Perhaps WW could look at their constitution and perhaps afford "Day-Membership" for a fee, to those showing a pilot's license in their name*

As a former Yacht-club member, we were automatically affiliated to the RYA and could expect acceptance at any other RYA affiliated sailing establishment, anywhere.

CS - that is a very good idea. As a member at White Waltham I will suggest to the committee that they consider something along these lines. For example I think that anyone carrying AOPA membership should be allowed in as a guest without payment, but up to a maximum number of visits per year (say four times). If they like it and wished to return more often then we would be delighted if they joined !

This would need to be restricted to AOPA members only and, say, one partner just to ensure we were not overun. As far as the general members are concerned, we would be delighted to have pilots such as Kerdunker dropping in from time to time as it is very much a pilot oriented club and we have a shared love of all things aviation related. As mentioned, I will speak to several of the committee members and report back here when I get any news !

There is currently absolutely no problem for general members of the public to access 'Ops' to enquire about flying. I regularly see this happening and if they are enthusiastic they end up staying for twenty minutes or more chatting with one of the instructors about the whole experience. It's just that they can't come in and use the club facilities if they are not actually progressing an interest in flying.

Drambuster

[cockney steve]

Drambuster.- your club's constitution would normally lay out terms and conditions for Members' guests...number at any time, number of visits etc. this stops one person bringing in a charabanc full of mates,
OTOH, in the case of a celebration, it's not unknown for random members to sign -in the permitted number of guests,until all are legal.

(you DO have a visitor's book??? )

Unless you specifically demand AOPA membership, I'd suggest a wider scope , to take in , say, LAA, BHGA, BMAA etc. members....remember this is only a "grockle" filter, you'd still get their landing-fee, or day-pass fee, if that's the way you went.

The Sailing-Club was affiliated to the RYA and therefore paid a goodly chunk of cash to them each year, so it could be argued that members had already paid for the reciprocal arrangements with other clubs.

We also had "invitation meets" which closely parallel the "fly-ins", Again, both visitors and members paid a small fee towards the races and the ensuing trophies and sustenance. all entrants had to produce a valid insurance certificate.


It's the details that take the hammering-out to try to eliminate inconsistencies and unfairness, both to the members who'se substantial annual fees keep the club afloat, balanced against the fellow enthusiast who wishes to "sound-out" the atmosphere and possibility of joining.

I don't think there isany members' organisation, Trade or Leisure, in this country, that doesn't struggle to recruit and retain members.

Recently, I've had Flyers from the local Golf club, Conservative Club and Health club, all extolling their virtues and offering low-cost entry.

5 years ago, they all had waiting-lists!

Now, Don't get me started on the difficulty of finding volunteers for committee and official duties!

[TCU]

Vino "Then that is good, but is there a mechanism where interested members of the public can leave the car park enquire about learning to fly?"

Yes, you simply walk through the gate and go to the flight office. If thats a bit challenging [in the mental and not physical sense] then one should perhaps consider an alternate hobby

My membership enquiry was met with great enthusiasm and included a walk down the flight line to look at the club aircraft and a cup of tea and chat with the CFI

[DX Wombat]

eharding, will you be gracing Conington with your presence?

[rans6andrew]

weird management at WW. I tried to join there when I bought my aircraft in 2002. I had been in and the manageress had shown me around, agreed a parking rate for my aircraft and showed me the club rules etc. All very reasonable. The day before my aircraft was going to be flown in for me I went along to pay the necessary fees and the CFI got involved. He rejected my membership as my Rans (microlight) was deemed to be "too slow in his circuit!"

That bit of stupidity has cost WW some 17 grand so far.

I ended up at Brimpton, cheaper, friendlier, dawn to dusk freedom without arrangement and all the tea and coffee I can drink.

Perhaps he was right to be concerned, microlights are taking over.

Rans6

[nakuru flyer]

Horses for courses.:confused:

[False Capture]

Three weeks ago some oiks came into the club and literally walked out with the club's large widescreen television. This may explain why the management at WW are keen to have someone checking memberships.

[percy prentice]

Suggest they get somebody to check that people are not walking out with the Club's telly. Goodness there will be so many security guards in the clubhouse there will be no room for Members.

By the way you don't by any chance know where the remote was kept ?? Doh!!

[Airbus Girl]

They do get a lot of "spotters" at WW. Unfortunately the club house is not really big enough to accommodate members (and their guests) as well as visitors and spotters. I think anyone genuinely looking to learn to fly, or to join the club would be welcomed with open arms, whereas spotters and oiks should be kept out. Why should members, who pay a lot of money each year, not be able to get in the clubhouse at weekends?

It did go through a phase a few years ago where you couldn't move at the weekends, there were kids and dogs everywhere. Members of WW like flying, and like the old fashioned "club" atmosphere. Most of them don't want it to become open to all - look what happened to The Red Baron over at Booker!!

[hasell]

As a previous member of the club (who will shortly) be rejoining... On parking up and walking past the the clubhouse. I got challenged about membership by lady with clipboard on more than one occasion. Perhaps I didn't have my flight bag with me on that day?? However hey ho, water off a ducks back and all that.

I'll echo what others have said -friendly club, nice atmosphere...

[AC-DC]

Some years ago I went there with a friend who is a training captain of Iceland Air. At the bar I was asked if I am a member, when answered with a 'no' I was told that i will not be served. Never went again.

[1800ed]

I was thinking of visiting (by air) tomorrow. This thread isn't the best of sales pitches for the place...

[Vino Collapso]

Sounds like if you fly in you will be very welcome. Just do not try to arrive by Ford Focus.

:suspect:

[ShyTorque]

Not necessarily so, at least in my experience. The owner of the aircraft I fly has told me never to take him there again; not that I would choose to go there again.

[eharding]

Not necessarily so, at least in my experience. The owner of the aircraft I fly has told me never to take him there again; not that I would choose to go there again.

I'd be interested in hearing the owner's reasons in that case.

Your opinions however, as the hired help, have no merit - you are simply someone else's bitch in that respect.

Unless, of course, you're bitter about the clubhouse Epaulette policy, and the ramifications thereof.

[ShyTorque]

Eharding, why should I tell you the reasons? They were discussed with the relevant person at the time; we won't be going back.

I have no idea what you mean by the clubhouse epaulettes policy.

As for my opinions having no merit - an arrogant thing to say and who are you to say that?

[Human Factor]

I have no idea what you mean by the clubhouse epaulettes policy.

Unless you are a commercial operator operating into WW, epaulettes in the clubhouse require you to buy a round for anyone in the bar (or within earshot) at the time. Many an airline driver has found out to his cost.;)

Hi-viz jackets tend to generate a few comments as well. :}

Your opinions however, as the hired help, have no merit -

I think what eharding meant was that if you are operating for someone else in a commercial capacity, you go where you're told, whether you like it or not.

[150commuter]

Perhaps a possible answer if WW (and any other similar club) wants to keep itself as a pure flying club rather than as a public facility is to simply say that visiting pilots and their passengers are welcome to use the facilities. Most of those would obviously be visiting by air but I doubt if the number of pilots turning up by road would be a problem. If it were then a caveat that pilots using the club regularly when not flying in should take out social membership would seem not unreasonable.

When I do visit WW it normally is by air but I have occasionally dropped in there for lunch when I've happened to be in the area and as I'm a member of another flying club- where our aircraft is based- haven't felt that I was abusing the club's hospitality.

[ShyTorque]

I think what eharding meant was that if you are operating for someone else in a commercial capacity, you go where you're told, whether you like it or not.

Which is incorrect, in any case. But I don't think that's what he/she meant.

[nakuru flyer]

There is no such thing as bad publicity only publicity. I hope you will be made very welcome.:ok:

[eharding]

Which is incorrect, in any case. But I don't think that's what he/she meant.

No, HF - as ever - was bang on in his analysis.


As for my opinions having no merit - an arrogant thing to say and who are you to say that?

Well, you might have had a point, but you blew yourself out of the water with this:

Eharding, why should I tell you the reasons? They were discussed with the relevant person at the time; we won't be going back.

So, in summary: you feel free to post negative comments about the place, but aren't prepared to give any background or rationale for doing so. Paint me arrogant, if you will, but I'll admit I can only aspire to the level of condescension you've managed to attain here.

On that basis, I'd assume you (and/or your owner) upset someone, and were cordially invited to sling your (and/or your owner's) hook(s).

The fact that you haven't returned is presumably a mutually agreeable arrangement. Long may it remain so.

[DX Wombat]

As I said previously, on both my visits I was made very welcome at WW. On my first visit there, purely as a matter of courtesy and from a fire safety point of view, I took myself to reception to let them know I was there to see "Fred" after which I purchased a cup of coffee to drink whilst I was waiting for him to appear. On the second occasion one of the two friends I was meeting there happened to arrive at the same time as myself.
I am not as fortunate as many of you as I do not have the financial resources to be able to do a lot of flying so many of my meetings with friends are, of necessity, made by road. I don't know what most of you feel about the standard of catering in roadside service stations but I feel it is overpriced to put it mildly. I would far sooner be able to drop in to an airfield I might be passing and eat there in the knowledge that I may have made some tiny contribution to funds which may help keep that particular airfield open for us to enjoy flying to. I do understand WW's concerns about having people who are unknown to them simply wandering about the place, perhaps production of pilot's licence and some form of photo identity might be an idea for anyone not arriving by air.

[ShyTorque]

eharding, your vitriol filled replies are a very good example of why a flying club might make itself unpopular with visitors so I sincerely hope you speak in no official capacity.

I'm glad to hear that other visitors have more pleasant memories of their visits but I'm entitled to post here just as much as they are.

Btw, I repeat, you are wrong about who makes the decisions about where we land. I chose WW as a convenient place to take him on the day but he told me in no uncertain terms he doesn't wish to go again. My "negative comment" was a fact. If you would care to read it again you might see it was the owner/passenger who was disgruntled, rather than me. If he's unhappy (this was an understatement), then obviously he won't go there again.

However, you immediately make this a personal issue. If you consider any pilot making a living out of flying as a "hired bitch", that says more about you than me. Perhaps some members at WW have a tinge of inherent resentment about professional aircrew visitors, especially in view of your quoted bizarre "clubhouse epaulettes policy". Where is that stated in the AIP?

[wsmempson]

White waltham's club house is precisely that - a club for the use of members which is also available to visiting pilots. The procedure for visiting non-members who have not flown in is very straightforward, you need to be signed in by a member to use the clubhouse; if you go and have a chat with the CFI or the Airfield manager, I'm sure they will be happy to oblige, if they are not too busy and the club-room is not already full.

However, there is no obligation upon them to do this as this is a PRIVATE MEMBERS CLUB.

In terms of epaulettes, I'm afraid you have grasped the wrong end of the stick, here. About a 1/3rd of the pilots based at WW seem to be involved in commercial aviation, in one form or another; the club rule is that if anyone (including the based members) turns up in full regalia, they have to buy a round of drinks. This is a policy designed to firstly to prevent a commercial pilots club-within-a-club atmosphere developing, and to prevent the sky-god-jet-jockeys from getting a bit too self important....:}

[Say again s l o w l y]

I have no "side" in any of this, but I will post a few comments about my experiences of clubs.

I'm a member of a private members club in London that doesn't allow anyone in, unless they are members or are accompanied by members.

If the guest turns up early, then they are allowed into one of the bars specifically set aside for this purpose, however they aren't allowed free reign. The system works quite well, but the place is very fussy with what to me are silly rules on dress etc. Ties and suits are a must, which for someone of my age and scruffiness is a complete pain in the backside. So that puts me off it sometimes. Despite the thousands of pounds a year in membership fees. I've never felt completely comfortable and if it wasn't for the facilities and location, I wouldn;t bother with it.

I also frequent Yacht clubs and sailing clubs when the mood to get wet and spend large sums of money for no apparent reason takes me. As mentioned before, most run a system where you can have affiliate membership if you are a member elsewhere, in the same way that many golf clubs do.
That usually works well. There is some control over who comes in, but people are made welcome and there is rarely bad feeling.

Some private clubs can be daunting and intimidating to some and that is much to the detriment of them. Whilst I'm sure WW is a fantastic club (actually I know it to be) there does seem to be a few "points of learning" that could be taken from this thread.

I wouldn't ever suggest that the doors should be simply flung wide for all and sundry to descend, but where is the prolem in allowing other aviators in for a drink? How they arrive is irrelevant and very arbitrary.

I turn up at airfields on the bike or in the car far more often than I do in an aircraft and given my current lack of medical, visiting by aircraft isn't always an option for everyone. Putting someone like me off joining just because of the mode of transport you use to visit initially is a bit daft to be honest.

Any club lives and dies on it's membership and whilst somewhere that has a very strong but cliquey core is fine for a while, it is often not good for the long term as new blood isn't made as welcome or attracted as it could be.

This is very hard to see when you are in the middle of it and I'll bet people would be horrified to think that this is the case.

WW is one of the best aviation clubs in the country, IF you are a member, but I get a feeling from this and from other comments over the years that the welcome to visitors could be a teeny weeny bit better than it currently is.

It's not a major problem, but clubs must be very careful to avoid becoming seen as a cliquey "old buffers" only establisment, where unless you are part of a certain "group", then you are a second class citizen. I'm not saying that WLAC is like that, but it should always be in the forefront of committee members minds when they are thinking about the long term health of the club.

Everyone should be made to feel welcome, members, guests, families etc. If that isn't happening, then instead of having a row about it, find out why and try and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Ed, mate, you're better than that. Having a go at someone for being "hired help" is a bit OTT.

[eharding]

However, you immediately make this a personal issue. If you consider any pilot making a living out of flying as a "hired bitch", that says more about you than me.


Hmm....maybe the use of the term "bitch" might have been a tad on the strong side.

However, after all this, you still haven't actually told us what the problem was, which isn't particularly helpful.

[cockney steve]

AC - DC post #46..... I happen to be interested in old Pinball tables.....let's say you share the interest........
I'd give you short shrift if you wandered into my lounge with a major pintable dealer, made yourselves comfortable and asked me to put the kettle on :}

OTOH. had I put a note on the" pinball gazette "........."fellow enthusiasts welcome to come and view my machine" Then you'd rightly expect to be welcomed......but the Brew's still a courtesy extended by me, not a right for you to demand.

SAS has summed it up well, except I'd say that if your face fits, you just become another one of the "clique "......which is, essentially, what a club is........a group of like-minded individuals pooling resources for their common good.


Note also, Drambuster has said he'll put some suggestions to the WW Committee , to address the percieved unfriendliness to land-bound visitors.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Clubs should never be about a single group of people. Whilst the overriding love of flying binds most clubs together, there are usually certain people who are friendlier with some rather than all.

Any decent sized club will have different groups of people, you might all rub along nicely, but that doesn't mean you are all bestest buddies.

Whilst bad behaviour is unacceptable, having to "prove" yourself and "make your face fit" is often the problem with most clubs. That shouldn't be an issue. As a member, you shouldn't have to gain acceptance from any "clique".

This is entirely the problem at many sailing clubs and other similar organisations. The "clique" believe they are the club and then ride roughshod over other members who might not be as vocal or long standing. When in reality ALL members should have the same standing. They all pay the same fees, therefore should attract the same rights.

"Cliqueyness" is unacceptable, but it needs someone very tough to stand up to it and most of the time, people just leave and avoid it. Which is of no benefit to the club nor the individual.

It's amazing how many clubs resemble playgrounds with sniggering groups in each corner, laughing at the "new kid" or anyone who doesn't conform. WLAC isn't like that, that's just a general comment that is mainly aimed at yacht clubs rather than flying.

[JW411]

I visit White Waltham by air fairly frequently. I have NEVER been treated with anything less than courtesy. The landing fee is pretty reasonable by modern standards.

The clubhouse (ex-ATA HQ) is exactly what a flying club bar and restaurant should be. If I lived in the vicinity, I would love to become a member because the WLAC is a dying breed.

They are a proper club and long may it last. Don't even consider letting the public in.

As I have already suggested, if the gentleman that started this thread had explained that he was unable to fly in that day because of the weather and had offered to pay the landing fee anyway, he would probably have been allowed in free of charge.

[Wide-Body]

Kerdunker

thanks for starting this thread. It has started people talking about the good and bad of the club. I am not speaking in any formal capacity whatsoever, but I am known to occasionally work part time there.

The thread has started discussions about how we can be more approachable as a club, yet still keeping the atmosphere which surrounds the historic club. Our CFI is very proactive and keen to show the facilities as discussed by a previous poster.

Mistakes are made and I am most dissapointed for your son. Drop me a PM and bring your son down as my guest. We can show him round the hangers and give you and him lunch. I also freqently observe the club from 09L approach, and hope your expierience will be in the minority as the club is a great place.

Shy Tourqe come back again, you never know you might get a nice visit. Unpleasantness is observed so rarely at the club, I am sure you will probably enjoy it (unless you were the one who nicked our widescreen :E)

EdHarding. I prefer the term Aerial prostitute to "hired bitch" but hey will reply to both.

18 greens. I have never heard that comment in 19 years at the club. It must be rollox because they let me fly there:ok:

rans6andrew. Brimpton, is a much better base for microlights. I am also a member at Brimpton, but the ripples on the millpond there is turning into a perfect storm !!!

Regards to all

Wide

[Human Factor]

Quote:
I think what eharding meant was that if you are operating for someone else in a commercial capacity, you go where you're told, whether you like it or not.

Which is incorrect, in any case.

Best you speak to my employer then.:hmm:

[ShyTorque]

Certainly - which "kennels" does he run? ;)

[Human Factor]

The big one about ten miles from White Waltham.:}

[ShyTorque]

Perhaps it's time to get a more secure but smaller kennel?

[rans6andrew]

Wide suggested "Brimpton is a much better base for microlights?", Not necessarily, it is not the most convenient place if you live at Ruscombe. And what is it about "microlights"?, would you make the same comment about GA? Both are "aircraft", no need to discriminate.

Maybe see you at the bun fight tonight?

Rans6

[TheGorrilla]

Plenty of aerial whores around. Many are too cheap for their own good. I won't ask ShyTorque who his pimp is, but only suggest that ShyTorque takes the time to visit WW on his own accord and formulate his own opinion. Talk to a few locals and have a look round.

Don't be influenced by the rich git pulling your puppet strings.

[Whirlygig]

that ShyTorque takes the time to visit WW on his own accord
If you read his posts, you'll find it was his decision to go to WW.

Why should anyone give any airfield (or any supplier of services) a second chance?

White Waltham needs to decide whether it is a private club or a business 'cos it can't be both obviously.

Cheers

Whirls

[TheGorrilla]

Fine, more items on the specials board for the rest of us! :)

[Flash0710]

Bob who? :E

hugs

x
x
x
f

[Wessex Boy]

Hmmm, timely thread...
I am staying down in Maidenhead/Windsor early next week and was thinking that I might pop into WW for a drink to take in the atmosphere with my family before heading for home on Tuesday, but it seems I won't be made as welcome as I have been everywhere else that I have done similar?

If it is a choice between having a quick snack in a roadside Cafe or seeking out a local Airfield/club to put some much-needed cash over the bar I normally choose the latter if feasible.

[ShyTorque]

Wessex Boy, please bear in mind that the problems I experienced were operational issues and as I mentioned, not to do with the clubhouse. You will hopefully be made welcome as a visitor, especially if certain "members" aren't present.

[Zulu Alpha]

I've dropped into WW or Hogwaltham as its affectionately known. It is a members club and has exactly that feel about it. They do have the right to make it a bit exclusive, they have all paid membership fees and expect something for it ie a seat at the bar and a short wait for food. If casual visitors have been offended by not being welcomed with open arms then they should bear this in mind, but I'm sure a little bit of pre-arrangement would work wonders. It exactly because it is a nice place that they have to be a bit aggressive about chasing away strangers, otherwise it would be swamped.

It has a Clarksonesque attitude to things like C150 drivers wearing epaulettes, hence the round of drinks rule (and yes its not in the AIP!!!)

Wessex boy, I'm sure you'll be welcome...and just to make sure then why not ask if anyone on this forum would invite you as their guest. If anyone from WW is still reading this, WB is a good lad, he loves aeros and has been known to buy people drinks... so let him in.

Ed is actually a lovely chap; he just gets a bit aggressive when hungry and at the top of avalanches.

ZA

[ShyTorque]

ZA, we certainly were not in a C150; I last flew one of those in 1973.
My PPR was accepted, so what extra notice is normally expected to land, drop a passenger and buy some fuel whilst waiting for his return? :hmm:

[Zulu Alpha]

ZA, we certainly were not in a C150; I last flew one of those in 1973.
My PPR was accepted, so what extra notice is normally expected to land, drop a passenger and buy some fuel whilst waiting for his return?

No idea, unless you tell us what went wrong. You weren't wearing epaulettes were you?!!!

I dropped in, refuelled, had a nice breakfast, chatted with a few of the folk, read their newspaper and went on my way. Couldn't have been nicer.

ZA

[JW411]

I find this whole thread quite amazing. If I was a member of the WLAC and had paid good money for my subscription, then you have to understand that I have joined WLAC because I like what I see and like the fellow aviators that I meet and want to keep it like that.

I have not forked out my dosh to join a CLUB that suddenly allows every man and his dog (sorry dogs) to come traipsing into MY club with squalling brats etc etc and with no interest whatsoever in aviation and then exit stage left with the club's flat screen TV in their pockets.

I have always enjoyed flying into White Waltham and have always been made welcome.

As I said earlier, if you want to arrive by road, then offer to pay the landing fee that you would have paid anyway. If that is not acceptable to you then either apply to join the club or else b*gger off to the nearest McDonalds.

It really is very simple.

[ShyTorque]

I was wearing epaulettes, but to no consequence. I fly for a living, have done so for 32 years now; it's my present company uniform and I was on duty. No-one objected or even mentioned it. If they had, as a paying visitor I would have told them where to stick the club's unwritten rules, as any reasonable person would, especially in the circumstances.

I repeat again - the issue on the day was that my passenger strongly objected to the way he was treated on arrival. He didn't go to use the club or its facilities (nor did I), merely to get to a further destination.

Edit: I didn't steal the telly and I didn't bring any children along. :ugh:

[percy prentice]

I fly for a living, have done so for 32 years now; it's my present company uniform and I was on duty. No-one objected or even mentioned it. If they had, as a paying visitor I would have told them where to stick the club's unwritten rules, as any reasonable person would, especially in the circumstances.

I repeat again - the issue on the day was that my passenger strongly objected to the way he was treated on arrival. He didn't go to use the club or its facilities (nor did I), merely to get to a further destination.

Suggest you and your pax are more suited for the VIP area at EGLL or maybe EGWU, you pay a little more but they give you large amounts of respect & are used to people arriving in all sorts of uniform, from Crowns & even down to orange boiler suits:)

[wsmempson]

I still don't understand the mystery that surrounds the scandelous way your paying passenger was treated. What happened - spill the beans please? Otherwise we'll just have to assume that your SLF was caught dogging in the carpark....

[Zulu Alpha]

I still don't understand the mystery that surrounds the scandelous way your paying passenger was treated.

Probably blocked Eds view of the specials menu.

ZA

[ShyTorque]

PP,

Thanks; we do go to EGLL too. Quite a bit cheaper than EGLW. Strangely enough, a previous uniform was an orange flying coverall with a crown on it. That is, when we weren't wearing the dark blue ones.

There's no mystery about anything and no scandal. ;)

[Wessex Boy]

If anyone from WW is still reading this, WB is a good lad, he loves aeros and has been known to buy people drinks... so let him in.


Thanks for the Character reference ZA, and good to see you at Conington Aeros Comp today!

We decided not to risk going to WW and had our lunch at a Pub by the Thames in Windsor instead. I will try flying in at some point as I have long wanted to visit

Oh, almost forgot, if you are an Aero-ist and want Flying clothing sans eppoulettes I may know someone who can help:E

[BEagle]

I do wish you dim civvies would learn that an 'epaulette' is the loop of cloth on uniform shirts or flying overalls upon which rank slides - the things (often with various gold bars) which seem to cause you so much angst - are worn.

Either one wears a uniform or one does not. Removal of uniform rank slides in order to avoid causing alleged offence to a few Golf Alfa Good Morning poseurs in a flying club bar is plain daft - far better to change into off-duty clothes altogether, surely?

[eharding]

I do wish you dim civvies would learn that an 'epaulette' is the loop of cloth on uniform shirts or flying overalls upon which rank slides - the things (often with various gold bars) which seem to cause you so much angst - are worn.

Either one wears a uniform or one does not. Removal of uniform rank slides in order to avoid causing alleged offence to a few Golf Alfa Good Morning poseurs in a flying club bar is plain daft - far better to change into off-duty clothes altogether, surely?

Beagle, pictured earlier, along with the horse he rode in on.

http://www.plus7minus5.co.uk/Proon/BeagleAndTheHorseHeRodeInOn.JPG

I rest my case. He could have someone's eye out with that sword, if they hadn't already been blinded by the sunlight reflecting from the bling.

[cockney steve]

^^^ that's a cunning stunt ,but he's far too young to have 15K + posts, so obviously it's not BEAgle :}

[Keygrip]

'epaulette' is the loop of cloth on uniform shirts

Not according to the dictionary, it isn't. I agree with your "rank slides", however.

[Human Factor]

I was wearing epaulettes, but to no consequence.

... because, as was pointed out earlier, you were flying a commercial operation into White Waltham.

If you were a passing Nigel (or Walter Mitty), who wandered in wearing full regalia, the round would follow as surely as night follows day.:E

[ShyTorque]

It wasn't me who brought that subject up, I merely responded to the implied criticism.

[TheGorrilla]

[QUOTE]I do wish you dim civvies would learn that an 'epaulette' is the loop of cloth on uniform shirts or flying overalls [QUOTE]

Great one! Nice.... Well done BEagle.

Being a thick civvy I feel too inferior to mention that the word "epaulets" simply means "shoulders".

Won't be taking it too literally when I walk into the bar, I'm not so tight as to go lopping off both arms to avoid buying a round. :}

[Saab Dastard]

Bryn the Sheepdog has moved...

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/384458-bryn-sheepdog-wlac.html

Feel free to continue the discussion in a more relaxed environment!

SD

[nondom]

I prop up the bar most evenings at Waltham. The clubhouse is great, best in the world, but the way the club is run gets worse and worse. In charge is the wife of the owner, and she has no interest in aviation. She has employed a man as her manager who seems afraid to talk to people on a social basis, and between them they are dragging the club down to a trough of mire. Most of the people who work there are trying to leave (at least the ones who chat to us mortals - the management don't afford us that respect).A ground crew lad is off after a year, saying he can't afford to live on the money and put up with the lack of motivation from management, as well as the insults from the owner. He reckons that for a 180 hour month he takes home about £900. Everyone who works as ground crew, operations or in the membership areas is actively looking for jobs away from Waltham. In a customer service operation, everyone who works there is demotivated and insulted by the woman running the place. They will be recruiting for staff soon and obviously a job is better than no job, but the whole set up is bad. One of the wheezes they pull is that when the weather is bad, they send staff home without paying them. Sure it's against the law, but what kind of ethics does a company have when they are paying staff less than £6 an hour anyway.
So don't be surprised by a poor Waltham welcome. Although you want to get in, most of them want to get out.

[James Aidan]

These items posted about White Waltham sum up this most loveable of airfields to a tee. There are the members who hotly defend the place, and visitors, some of whom are warm in affection and others who have had a cool reception. It is a club; it does not offer good handling facilities of the type hoped for by Shy Torque, and the service and welcome can be excellent or poor.
I remember talking to Shy Torque before his departure, and he revealed the extent of the poor service he received. It was the sort of service which eHarding and Gorilla would find nothing wrong with, because they are using the club as a social facility, and would think nothing of traipsing though longish wet grass. However Shy Torque had a VIP on board, received very curt and unhelpful treatment from the radio operator (an ex-flying instructor at Waltham) and even though I was very apologetic to the pilot and his passenger, Waltham has lost potentially a few hundred pounds a year in landing fees, and suffered damage to its reputation. The pilot chose Waltham to land at as it was the nearest public facility to Windsor Castle, an occasional inhabitant of which the passenger was meeting.
In a service organisation, such as Waltham, there is no room for turning people away, making them feel trivial or not offering to help as much as possible. The problem is that there is no real service training except on the job. Many people are warm towards those they know, but exhibit more hostility or suspicion towards those they don't - I've noticed this to be a general human trait, and not one exclusive to ex flying instructors. Given the observations of nondom here, though, it may be that the management at Waltham would find it useful to spend more time on training and motivating their employees to provide consistent good service.

[Sir George Cayley]

As a yardstick I use the car rental biz. You go to Hertz, Sixt, Europcar etc to rent a motor for the weekend. You go to Waltham, Denham, Elstree, Goodwood etc to rent a motor with wings for a few hours.

The requirement is nearly the same. Good price, good car (plane) good service.

Already, differences are coming to mind. Even the worst airport car rental office is better than many aero club ops rooms. Prices? Cost plus or what the market will stand?

Good service? Hhmmm. I'll leave that for you, dear reader, to reflect on.

I'm not even going to duck!

Sir George Cayley

[TheGorrilla]

Blimey some folk take themselves too seriously. The shoulder boards thing is merely banter.

nondom, your remarks are rather scathing. There always has been a reasonable turn over of staff at EGLM. The senior managers are usually the only ones to stay for any length of time. When asked most ex-donglers (ex-ground crew to the uninitiated) look back fondly on their time at Waltham. Pay isn't great for sure, but most reflect on the experiences enjoyed. The turn over of staff also means there are a few new faces to get to know every so often. It's a good apprenticeship!!

I don't think you can compare the VIP facilities at EGLM to the likes of Biggin or Luton, totally different airfields. Waltham is all-grass with a lovely atmosphere.

It seems you have to point out the bleedin' obvious to folk sometimes... Grief!!

[POBJOY]

We dont have all that B... S....t down here in Cornwall you can :- Fly Drive Walk Bike Swim Crawl and Parachute into most of our places and at Perranporth there will always be a mixture of most of those at any one time with great food and spectacular scenery.
It amazes me how aviation in this country shoots itself in the foot when it comes to hospitality to those with a common interest.
There should be more places like "Dillows" at Biggin remember that !!!!
Old Sarum is OK.

[TheGorrilla]

Pompus?? I assume you mean pompous!

Clearly I have never met you at Waltham!!! I set off from Waltham to Perranporth once. Got halfway there and couldn't be arsed, went to Sandown instead. Really wasn't that desperate for a pastie. That's the good thing about Waltham, it's close to where I live. The food is good and the banter... Well, c'mon guys I'm still waiting!!!

Dillows? You're having a laugh aren't you??

[eharding]

I set off from Waltham to Perranporth once. Got halfway there and couldn't be arsed, went to Sandown instead.


Now, then - let's be accurate.

It wasn't a case of you not being arsed, it was a case of you being in the Cub, and geological processes.

The Cub took so long to get from Waltham to Perranporth (induced drag being a massive factor), continental drift had moved Sandown to where Perranporth had been when you started out.

[TheGorrilla]

Yeah Ok, we tech stopped at Compton Abbas!!

[Human Factor]

I remember TheGorilla and I taking an hour to fly round the back of Reading in the Cub once. We were probably lucky to get airborne at all....

[cumulusrider]

I am a member of a club with 600+ flying members. We have a fenced area by the clubhouse with tables, benches and a climbing frame and swings for the kids. We actively encourage casual visitors be they spotters or familys with kids. The restaurant and bar are not self supporting without income from these guests. members are actively encouraged to speak to visitors and make them welcome, explaining how the airfield operates. As a result we have a steady trickle of new members.

We are very busy during the summer. Up to 200 movements per hour

There is discussion among members about if we a club or a business since we turn over several million pounds a year

Although we have a a large tarmac runway we fly mainly off the grass.

You have probably guessed I am talking about Lasham Gliding Society

[petes1s]

TheGorilla says :There always has been a reasonable turn over of staff at EGLM. The senior managers are usually the only ones to stay for any length of time.

one of them called me a ****ing Pittsbarstuard earlier this year

I hadn't done anything apart from point out his apalling lack of airmanship

what a refreshing attitude
this sort of banter is homely and shows that people here at WW are full of enthusiasm and lack of pompusness and willing to engage members in interesting dialogue


the donglers are, by comparison, extremely well mannered

[POBJOY]

A Pastie is not available at Perranporth but a Pasty can be arranged by PPO.
There were lots of laughs at Dillows (decades ago) with lots of people and it rated very high on the "banter scale".
Of course if you are in a cub then you always arrive late unless setting off the day before everyone else.
Anyway they are a jolly fine aircraft and one can enjoy a very pleasant picnic lunch whilst clearing the ATZ.
One of the more interesting features of Dillows was the "tea system",whereby the next person through the door was invited to refill the raised cups of those sitting around.If you used the place enough it sort of worked ok and made the place quite unique.
Thats what we need, a "Dillows" franchise in GA to get it back on track.

[pasir]

... Further to the great WW shoulder adornments debate - In my experiences the term 'Epauletes' is more closely related to describing the 'padded ornamental decorations' worn upon the shoulders of military and other uniforms - especially upon uniforms of Military Musicians - Whereas the term 'Shoulder Straps' is perhaps more appropropriate in describing the strips of cloth upon shoulders of military and other shirts and uniforms - often displaying badges or rank and or regimental insignia.

...

[James Aidan]

The Chief Flying Instructor at West London Aero Club kindly lent me one of his collection of David Clarke headsets on Thursday 30th September on condition that I wrote "something nice about" him on pprune.
David Coe is a super guy, with talents almost unsurpassed in singing and instructing, and with a warmth of personality rarely found in the management circles of flying clubs.

(May I have the noise cancelling one next time, please?)

In response to suggestions that I may be nondom, may I firstly deny it, and secondly point out that I am a very fair critic in all areas, and would never comment negatively without pointing out the positive side of things. When the manager of Waltham reaches retirement age in a year or two, he will be able to reflect on achievements unprecedented during my near 20 year's membership at WLAC. He has gained planning permission for a large new hangar and also got it built. He has organized a new runway 29/11, and Waltham is busy now welcoming film crews to use the historic facilities and paying valuable funds to the club's coffers. It is true that he keeps a low profile with club members but it is hardly surprising given how much paperwork he has to deal with.
Contrary to nondom's assertions, the owner's wife DOES have an interest in aviation, as I found out when I first flew her to the Isles of Scilly. Also, she has a quirky sense of humour, which some may interpret as rude. The good thing is, though, she can take a joke.

[TheGorrilla]

(May I have the noise cancelling one next time, please?)

Ahhh... A true Waltham Bar pilot... On transmit only! :}:ok: