The value of NOTAMs?

[gpn01]

Does anybody know why a block of airspace covering over 700nm/sq of the South-East of England from ground level up to FL100 has been notamed this weekend?

[IO540]

Notamed with what?

Most notams are a load of crap - stuff like "some plane will be doing a weather survey"... as if the air was not full of planes already.

If you disregard all notams which are irrelevant on the basis of telling us about something which already happens all over the place, what it leaves you with is

- prohibited areas (lots of them this summer - airshows)

- temporary Class A airspace - defunct navaids

- closed airports etc.

and those do matter.

[englishal]

There seems to be a permanent one about fast jets and the Bristol channel and they "may not be able to comply with the rules of the air". It is a large area and has been in force for as long as I can remember! :} I just ignore it now....

[NorthSouth]

The only NOTAMs I can see this weekend which are SFC to FL100 are around all the airfields where the RAF UASs/AEFs operate, and those are all over the UK, not just SE England. I'm guessing they have a nationwide event on this weekend of either concentrated AEF cadet flying or perhaps some sort of UAS competition.

The NOTAM on fast jets in the Bristol Channel is Hawks doing fighter control training and since they're all between FL100 and FL245 they're presumably of no interest unless you're flying something pressurised or oxygenated?

NS

[IO540]

may not be able to comply with the rules of the air

I don't know anybody who complies with the rules of the air :)

In Class G you fly where you like.

In CAS, you do as you are told.

[Jim59]

Don't you give way to gliders, balloons and traffic on your right?

[Cows getting bigger]

I comply with the rules of the air. I just hope I'm never in the same bit of air as you, IO540. :ugh:

[IO540]

Don't you give way to gliders, balloons and traffic on your right?

Not really ;)

But seriously I do wonder what those "won't be complying with the rules of the air" notams really mean.

If there is a baloon, is the plane in question going to just ignore it and fly straight through it?

That's one extreme.

The other extreme of "rules of the air" is the stuff about flying to the right of a line feature. Which line feature do you pick? If there is a coast, nearly everybody flies just inshore of it - because they are expecting an engine failure but that way they still get a nice view.

I don't see the point of such notams.

[gpn01]

My concern is that NOTAM'ing such a large area, like this:

EGUB (BENSON)
Q) EGTT/QWTLW/IV/M/AW/000/100/5137N00106W015
FROM: 09/06/19 11:00 TO: 09/06/21 21:31

E) INTENSIVE LIGHT ACFT WI 15NM RADIUS 5137N 00106W (BENSON, OXON)
AUS 09-06-0713/AS7

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: FL100
SCHEDULE: HJ
H2176/09

defeats the purpose of NOTAM's (this particular one stretches over to High Wycombe to the East, South to Reading, well to the North of Oxford) and by going up to FL100 bounces right into a lot of Class-A airspace.

Issuing blanket NOTAM's like this for so many UAS/AEF/ATC locaitons just adds to the swathe of activities that you now need to read through when planning a flight, thereby possibly masking some of the more relevant ones.

[piky]

I also comply with Rules of the Air! 10540, I know you think they are crap but just wondering, do you actually know what NOTAM means?:E

Regards

Piky

[JW411]

IO540: "Most NOTAMs are a load of crap"

Now then, I do agree that most NOTAMs are a complete pain in the ar*e to unearth, read and inwardly digest but God help you if you miss that really important one that you didn't expect.

The Dutch pilot who found himself in the middle of the Red Arrows at Eastbourne springs to mind.

You are supposed to be in command of your flight after all.

By the way, having spent my first 18 years flying for Mrs Windsor, I can think of thousands of occasions when "not flying in accordance with the Rules of the Air" would have applied but such occasions were usually covered by NOTAM.

[Captain Smithy]

No offence intended, but I find some of the sentiments a little worrying here.

"Most NOTAMs are a load of crap"

"I just ignore it now"

etc.

Remind me to stay at home when you lot are out and about :ugh:

Smithy

[piky]

"Remind me to stay at home when you lot are out and about"

Did you mean "Remind me to stay at home when you TWO are out and about" young Captain? ;)

[dublinpilot]

Most NOTAMs are a load of crap

Well I don't see what the problem with that statement is. The vast majority of them in my briefings seem to be about new obstacles that are erected, almost always below 500ft.

Since I don't fly that low (it's illegal in most places), I can just disregard all of them. Without them, my narrow route brief would generally be less than half it's original size.

Then there are the one notifying that some aircraft is doing a flyby. Humm....so I might meet an aircraft flying low. Well as I don't fly low, it shouldn't be a problem. It's more likely to be a collision risk while enroute, the same as any other aircraft is.

Or the ones that really wind me up....a PJE in the south west of Ireland, that is given a 99nm or sometimes 250nm radius so that my trip from Dublin to London has it included on the briefing.

IO obviously checks the notams....he's said often enough here that it's important. His point (and it's one that I agree with) is that putting in pointless notams only clouds up the picture and helps to hide notams that are truely important.

dp

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Which line feature do you pick? If there is a coast, nearly everybody flies just inshore of it - because they are expecting an engine failure but that way they still get a nice view.
Really? - I fly just offshore for an even better view, but at a height that lets me reach the beach.

(But I do try to plan the trip such that this bit is in the right direction as per the rules of the air.)

[NorthSouth]

Well done IO540, got a good debate going. I don't believe for a second that you do any of the things you claim, you just like winding people up.

If there is a baloon, is the plane in question going to just ignore it and fly straight through it?No, it means that if a balloon is daft enough to go into an area with notified activity which may not be able to comply with the Rules of the Air they should expect that aircraft might - for example - pass under, over or in front of them, might overtake them on the left instead of the right, might be flying closer to cloud and in worse vis than set out in the RoA, might not be showing any lights.

Dublinpilot: Quote:Most NOTAMs are a load of crap

Well I don't see what the problem with that statement is. The vast majority of them in my briefings seem to be about new obstacles that are erected, almost always below 500ft.Can't speak for Irish NOTAMs but I can safely say that almost none of the UK NOTAMs (other than those for airports) are about new obstacles.

As regards the original NOTAM which offended gpn01, I agree that it looks like a case of a standard NOTAM being applied to all the airfields irrespective of the airspace - a bit lazy. Maybe they should just have said "increased activity in vicinity of...".

NS

[Captain Smithy]

piky: ""Remind me to stay at home when you lot are out and about"

Did you mean "Remind me to stay at home when you TWO are out and about" young Captain?"

Thanks for putting that better than I did ;)

At my local airfield the NOTAMs are usually mostly cranes, steel plates on taxiways and closed gates etc. Whilst closed gates or cranes on the approach won't really affect me, it's useful information for someone else. The point I am trying to make is that just because the NOTAM isn't relevant to you doesn't mean it is "crap".

Smithy

[NorthSouth]

Oh dear. Just taken a look at our colleagues over there (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56060) and they're suggesting that these NOTAMs have been issued in reaction to the Grob/glider collision last weekend. Seems like a rather pointless exercise. If they have really decided that the risks are now too great, they might be better to restrict all AEF cadet flying to within MATZs or controlled airspace rather than pretend that issuing a NOTAM will increase the lookout performance of civil pilots in the area (assuming of course that this was the cause of last weekend's midair). That would cover 8 of the 12 UAS/AEF airfields.
NS

[FrankLeeSpeakin]

Theres ANOTHER aviator forum? I thought this was THE ONE...

[gpn01]

Oh dear. Just taken a look at our colleagues over there (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56060) and they're suggesting that these NOTAMs have been issued in reaction to the Grob/glider collision last weekend. Seems like a rather pointless exercise. If they have really decided that the risks are now too great, they might be better to restrict all AEF cadet flying to within MATZs or controlled airspace rather than pretend that issuing a NOTAM will increase the lookout performance of civil pilots in the area (assuming of course that this was the cause of last weekend's midair). That would cover 8 of the 12 UAS/AEF airfields.
NS

Would be curious to understand what their concept of 'intensive light aircraft' is. Spread across a 700nm/sq area, it's going to take a lot of traffic to come anywhere near the hive of activity in the circuit at most airfields at the weekend.....and they're not NOTAM'd. Does rather smack of someone deciding that they'll show some sort of "Duty of Care" by discharging their responsibility in the event of an accident by saying "yes, but we did NOTAM that there'd be flying"...

[DB6]

Not sure that is the reason for the NOTAM, as the one local to me (Leuchars) ends tonight, but flying around Dundee yesterday there was bugger all activity from Leuchars - indeed it was closed - and ATC at Dundee confirmed nothing was happening. So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.

[miroc]

I think there is a googd reason for issuing such a NOTAM. If there will be an accident caused by military (or whoever "official" not flying by the rules) they can say: the civilian pilot did not pay attention to the NOTAM. :ugh:

Instant alibi?

[IO540]

So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.

Exactly.

Fortunately, if one does a narrow route briefing (rather then the old style area briefing) and sticks to one's planned route when actually flying, notams are not such a huge deal.

I cannot believe I am the only pilot who can read (I am a foreigner so maybe??) but it doesn't take a lot of time to pick out the nasty ones.

INTENSIVE LIGHT ACFT

That is a stupid pointless ar*se covering exercise. Why not just notam Stapleford, Wellesbourne, etc every weekend when the previous two weeks were OVC006 ?

BTW that famous prosecuted Eastbourne TRA busting pilot from Belgium(?) did get notams, but reportedly diverted off his planned route, presumably to have a look at something... That's why I get the NRB with a 20nm track width instead of 10nm.

For pilots who just want to go for an aimless random bimble, it is a lot harder. They really do have to read through a lot more garbage.

[NorthSouth]

DB6:Not sure that is the reason for the NOTAM, as the one local to me (Leuchars) ends tonight, but flying around Dundee yesterday there was bugger all activity from Leuchars - indeed it was closed - and ATC at Dundee confirmed nothing was happening. So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.It was ever thus. NOTAMs are about planned activity. It doesn't mean it will happen. The NOTAMs in question were clearly a standard issue which may not have been able to account for local variations. That's true of all NOTAMs. Doesn't mean they should be ignored. Just that you have to accept that when you read the NOTAMs only a few - if any - will apply to your particular flight. Like I say, it was ever thus. But as gpn01 says, this one rather smacks of a misguided a**e-covering exercise.
NS

[dont overfil]

I flew south to an airshow on Sat, a short hop to another on Sun then home. Narrow route brief produced 25 pages of crap and a quarter if a page of useful information.
This really does need to be put into a more readable format.
If a pilot was taken to court for not acting on a notam I bet a smart lawyer could convince a jury that it is mostly unreadable gobbledegook and would bear no force in law.
DO.

[Cows getting bigger]

Unreadable gobbledegook that pilots have been taught, and examined, to decipher. Hmmmm....

[IO540]

does anyone else think that it would be much better to have some way of publishing the places you are physically not allowed to fly?

Not available as such officially, but in the summer a good start is to print off that pink or mauve or whatever AIC which contains all the airshows. These all have TRAs.

For example on 26-28th June there is one at Biggin Hill.

There is apparently a way to detect TRAs from the data stream by looking at one of the headers, and I think this is what some of the 3rd party graphical presentation sites (e.g. dsc.net) used to do.

The curious thing is what happened before the internet? I started flying in 2000 and nobody taught me about notams. The school printed off some local ones on a piece of paper. This is OK for a local burger run but what did pilots do when flying say 500-1000nm?

If IFR (airways) you can get away with it because ATC won't send you through a closed area. You just need to phone the airport(s) to make sure they are open, etc.

If VFR, I suspect people just didn't care.

The internet based system makes is easy to generate all kinds of garbage.

But if one gets the NRB, finding the notams that actually prohibit flight is not hard at all.

[david viewing]

The curious thing is what happened before the internet?

Well here's a pre-internet (Sibson c. 1980) account.

The school would print off the Notams (ususally 3-5 pages) and pin them to the notice board. Then, they would pin on top a raggedy torn piece of paper saying "No royal flight today" or occasionally "Royal flight today". (The 3-5 pages was for the whole UK and might be compared with the 12+ pages of today's 'area brief').

If there was a purple airway, one would certainly plot it out to see if there might be a conflict. The Notams in those days were hand compiled, concise, and relevant.

We certainly did read the rest of the Notams, but time pressure prior to flight often made that a presumptory affair. A huge breakthrough came at the end of the 90's when the same hand crafted Notam report became available at home over the new fangled Internet allowing every Notam (No need to say 'relevant' because in those hand crafted days they were all relevant) to be studied properly.

Then of course the hand crafted Notams were snatched away to be replaced by the present bureacratic shambles.

Strange how reminiscent of those far-off days the present 'Lockheed Martin' flight service is. The briefer plots your route and checks for Notams. He or she advises you that there are no TFR's close to your route, or makes sure you understand if there are. Then he or she goes through the rest saying "are you interested in x or y?", constantly filtering for relevance. Just like our old, hand compiled, Notams back home.

Still, presumably the present UK system costs the UK taxpayer far less money than either the old hand crafted system or (pro rata) the spendthrift Americans' private FSS contract. Obviously.

[betterfromabove]

NorthSouth: Flew past Benson last night about 6.30pm talking to F'boro & asked if Benson were open & I should talk to them. They said there was probably no point - they'd given no response all day.

So what else is there to do? Keep out of the ATZ, keep eyes out & hope F'boro & are able to spot things for you?!?

BTW, the reams of heli traffic to/from Silverstone & Ascot this last week into the NW London area has been far more significant, although most were indeed on frequency & giving excellent reports of what they were up to.

Do these UAS/AEF flights contact F'boro or other civvie LARS when straying from their ATZ's?

[IO540]

David Viewing's post reinforces what I think about "progress" i.e. the internet has merely facilitated the easy distribution of all kinds of junk, from porn to junk notams.

Why? Because it's "free".

The old system would have never worked for pilots who seriously go places. So, did the jails fill up with pilots who, after a 500nm flight from some dodgy foreign country, busted some TRA? I don't think so. Why not?

One answer might be that because the buck has been passed firmly to the pilot obtaining the briefing (on the grounds that everybody has internet access, at all relevant times) and this facilitates the prosecution. Whereas the previous system was so unusable for long trips that any half awake lawyer would have got the pilot off the hook.

The existing system is actually pretty good - for pilots who

- have mobile internet (not hard these days)
- use the narrow route briefing
- accept that a notam other than a prohibited area notification is not worth much (or anything, like the kite flying notams)

Notams are essential for VFR flight and everybody should have appropriate internet access, and always check them. After all, how does one get weather? Not by the old faxback from the met orifice, surely??? It's all on the internet.

But 99% of notams are still of zero relevance to flight :)

Here is my favourite: [my bold]

Q) LGGG/QAFXX/IV/NBO/W/000/999/3738N02456E356
FROM: 07/09/19 07:01 TO: PERM
E) NAVIGATIONAL WARNING:
WITH REFERENCE TO THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 WE POINT OUT THE
FOLLOWING:
A.- THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY BETWEEN POINTS 404500N0261000E
AND 360500N0300000E HAS BEEN CLEARLY ESTABLISHED BY ICAO REGIONAL
AGREEMENTS AND CONSEQUENTLY IS FOUNDED ON AN AUDOUBTEDLY SOUND LEGAL
BASIS AS NOTED IN OUR A1709/07 LGGGYNYX NOTAM.
MORE SPECIFICALLY THE DELIMITATION OF THIS BOUNDARY WAS COMPLETED
DURING THE SECOND MIDDLE EAST AND THIRD EUROPEAN-MEDITERRANEAN
REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION MEETINGS (ISTANBUL OCT-NOV 1950 AND PARIS
FEB-MAR 1952) AND SUBSEQUENTLY APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL ON
DECEMBER 14 1950 AND JUNE 23 1952 RESPECTIVELY.
THE AGREED AND APPROVED ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY IS CLEARLY
DEPICTED ON MAP NO 7 OF THE 1952 REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION AGREEMENT
AND REPORTED IN THE AIR NAVIGATION PLAN FOR THE EUROPEAN REGION
CHARTS ATS 1A ICAO DOC 7754 AS WELL AS ON ALL THE FOLLOWING ICAO
AERONAUTICAL CHARTS THUS CONSTITUTING AN INTERNATIONAL LEGALLY
ESTABLISHED REGIME CONFIRMED BY A LONG STANDING PRACTICE NOT LEAVING
SPACE FOR MISLEADING OR MISINTERPRETATIONS.
B.- THE NEW COPS STATED IN THE AIP-GREECE PAGES RAC 3-1-27 AND
3-1-28 NAMELY BELGI RIKSO PIROX SOTIV AND BENEM CALCULATED AND
SUBMITTED BY ICAO IN HIS RELEVANT LETTERS TO GREECE AND TURKEY AND
SUBSEQUENTLY ACCEPTED AND PUBLISHED BY THEM AS WELL AS OTHER COPS
PREVIOUSLY PRESENTED NAMELY GOLDO AMANI VEXOL REDRA SITRU AND
BANRO COINCIDE WITH THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY ACCORING TO
THE ICAO AERONAUTICAL CHARTS AND THE LONG STANDING PRACTICE AS
MENTIONED ABOVE.

FOR ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED REASONS FULLY CONSISTENT WITH ICAO
CONSIDERATIONS AND NEEDS THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 IS IRRELEVANT IN
ITS ENTIRETY AND NOT PRODUCING ANY INTERNATIONALLY LEGAL EFFECT.

Wonderful stuff. They just don't make them like they used to.


As regards nonresponsive military units, a while ago I flew overhead Brize, around 1730L, and multiple calls elicited no response. Then another plane responded to me saying they could not get them up either, and they must be closed. We then joked (on the air) that if the Russians are going to invade they better do it after 5pm :) Now, I don't actually think Brize was closed. They merely shut their VHF desk. Mil comms are on UHF. Their Class D remains Class D H24 (AIUI) but now they will have traffic going overhead at 3600ft.

[david viewing]

IO540: Regarding Brize, they are there, on 119.0.

It's complete nonsense and I wonder how many infringements they've had from people thinking no radio = class D reverts to G or something?

Several times out of hours other units have told me to freecall Brize 124.275 having presumably not read the Notam!

[hollo]

does anyone else think that it would be much better to have some way of publishing the places you are physically not allowed to fly?Not available as such officially, but in the summer a good start is to print off that pink or mauve or whatever AIC which contains all the airshows. These all have TRAs.There is always the airspace restrictions number on 0500 354 802. It's a recorded message, and if saved in your mobile is a very easy way of checking you haven't missed anything major. They only mention temporarily restricted airspace and airspace upgrades, so you still need the Notams for stuff that is not officially restricted but you still want to stay clear of (airshow practices, BBMF flypasts, amateur rocketry, etc.)

[belowradar]

Personal Notam hates !!!!

1 - Selecting a departure and destination airfield and getting all the notams in the country regardless

2 - Being told where people are kite flying

3 - Nonsense about transponders and admin changes to ANO

4 - The junk notams that sit there forever

And the solution that I have found which gets rid of my hassles ???

"EADS BASIC" APPLICATION http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicuser/public/pu/login.do (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicuser/public/pu/login.do)

ON THE "EUROCONTROL " WEBSITE

There is a free NAVPlot utility which is free and is downloaded as an icon to your desktop.

BENEFIT? Click on the icon and in a few seconds you get a map of UK (or other preferred country) with graphical representation of current Notams and a description. Bloody brilliant !

Enjoy !

[Rod1]

"So what else is there to do? Keep out of the ATZ, keep eyes out & hope F'boro & are able to spot things for you?!?"

You could get £400 worth of PCAS which will detect the Tutors Transponder and give range, relative height and height trend. Quite hard to bump into it if you know all that.:ok:

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

The link doesn't bring me to the Navplot utility. A search of the Eurocontrol website for Navplot doen't turn up anything :confused:

[tinpilot]

The link doesn't bring me to the Navplot utility. A search of the Eurocontrol website for Navplot doen't turn up anything You have to download NavPlot from Freeflight Software (http://www.freeflight.org.uk/software/notam.html)

I wouldn't bother though, Notam Map (http://www.notam-map.co.uk/launch.html) + a NATS login is much better.

[belowradar]

Tinpilot


Just checked out the NATS version and it looks good (after I realised how to get map view)

Thanks for the tip !

[Molesworth 1]

If you're flying in Essex/Suffolk on Saturday the NOTAM about 40 microlights flying in the "Around Britain Rally" might be worthy of note.:(:eek: