VFR via Italy (Hungary to Avignon)

[SP-THC]

I have read a lots about problems with fuel in Italy,
I plan a flight from Hungary (via Slovenia LJPZ) to Avignon, it is all Schengen so I do not need customs but will need refuel somewhere in Italy
1. can anyone recommend best route through Italy?
2. where to refuel in Italy? for how much? (or rather take fuel in Slovenia and then in France)
3. where to cross Alps or rather go South via Monaco?
4. is fuel expensive in France?

thanks

[LH2]

I have read a lots about problems with fuel in Italy,

Don't believe everything you read (but some of it is true) :)

1. can anyone recommend best route through Italy?

Your natural route through the North should be all right. Plenty of class C and D airspace, but it shouldn't be a major problem. The weather South of the Alps is likely to be more of a concern--plan carefully.

2. where to refuel in Italy? for how much? (or rather take fuel in Slovenia and then in France)r

Try to go for the latter option. I don't know your endurance, but if you top up in Portoroz and pay attention to your winds etc., you should be able to make Cannes on most spamcans. Careful with the winds, as they can easily add another hour to a no-wind three hour flight.

If you do need to refuel in Italy, your best bet is to ask for local knowledge at Portoroz, or perhaps politely ask the controller en-route. If you speak any Italian, life will be a bit easier, but no major problems if you don't.

If in doubt, go for the grass airfields and avoid major airports: they will not have AVGAS.

3. where to cross Alps or rather go South via Monaco?

South via Monaco. Something like LIQW UNITA LFMD should do it if you don't mind all that water below you. If you do, then just follow the A10/A8 along the coast, although flying around Genova might be a bit of a problem.

Whatever you do, do not land in Nice. They don't want you there and the landing+handling fees will make that clear. Go for Cannes, or better yet, Fayence (good resto at the field).

4. is fuel expensive in France?

Not particularly. Cheaper than Germany, a bit more expensive than Spain, and if you do refuel in Italy, France will feel like a bargain.

Hope this helps. Enjoy your trip.

[AfricanEagle]

SP-THC,

post a query on VFR Flight - il forum di chi vola per divertimento - Aviazione Generale, VDS, ULM - Index (http://www.vfrflight.net) in the "Welcome Foreigners" section. I am sure you will get some local feedback regarding fuel in northern Italy.

[SP-THC]

thank you very much LH2 and AfricanEagle,

it looks I will refuel in Slovenia and fly through Italy w/o landing to get to France at Monaco,

last think: i do not speak Italian, there is a lot of TMAs etc on my way, shall I flightplan to try to go through TMAs or rather plan a low level flight below TMA's in order not to take a risk of rerouting by ATC (I heard they do not like VFR)?

[IO540]

My only problems airborne in Italy were that ATC did not coordinate on clearances, so one ATCO cleared me on a route A-B-C wholly within a piece of Class D, then handed me to the next unit (while I was still before C) which told me to remain outside controlled airspace.

This is a totally stupid situation which cannot resolved safely because you cannot simply do a dogleg while inside CAS (which is what I did), but many Italian ATCOs cannot speak English beyond the few standard phrases, so if you try to have any kind of conversation they tend to ignore you, presumably to ensure that their shortcoming does not appear on the tape.

But most of the time they were fine. I don't fly VFR on those parts anymore but recall that most of Italy was not CAS so VFR flight seems easy.

They have lots of "VFR routes" marked on the charts, but these seem to be used mainly by the locals doing low level local flights (below 1000ft kind of stuff). These routes are set up on VRPs which are in many cases going to be hard work to find for a foreign pilot. However there is plenty of scope for higher level flight along more straight lines.

A decent GPS is a must, IMHO.

But without knowing the range of the OP's plane, what can one say? A TB20 could fly from Hungary to France nonstop.

Avgas in Italy is a persistent issue, with a local rule at many airports prohibiting them selling avgas except to the local aeroclub. This can be fixed with a bribe but only if you can find somebody to make the arrangement.

Some places also absolutely enforce PPR, to the extent of refusing a landing clearance if they think you didn't get it, so I'd never fly to any place there (or anywhere else actually) unless I get a positive confirmation that it's OK.

Padova is a well organised airport, with avgas, but they absolutely enforce PPR, and don't always answer phone or fax.

I would start phoning/faxing prospective airports well before the date of the flight, and definitely not fly to one with which contact cannot be established,

[dirk85]

Hi!
Pay attention to Milan TMA (class A): depending on the route you may have to fly most of the time at 2000 ft (1000\1500 agl).
And pay attention to this, a real shame:

A3405/09 - GARDA CTR. ALL VFR FLYING ACT WI GARDA CTR IS NOT ALLOWED,
IN ORDER TO REDUCE ATC WORKLOAD. TFC NOT AFFECTED:
STATE ACFT, FIRE FIGHTING FLT, HELICOPTER EMERGENCY MEDICAL
SERVICE (HEMS) AND SAR OPERATIONS.
OTHER FLW PROVISIONS WILL BE APPLIED:
1. RADAR SER TO VFR TFC WILL BE PROVIDED BY GARDA APP/RADAR IN THE
EVENT OF EMERGENCY ONLY.
2. ONLY TRAINING FLIGHTS BELONGING TO LIPN AND LIPO FLYING SCHOOLS
WILL BE AUTHORIZED, UPON ATC DISCRETION, TO LIPO AD
REF AIP ENR 2.1.2.13-1 AND ENR 6.3-5. 01 JUN 20:17 2009 UNTIL 01 SEP 14:30 2009
ESTIMATED. CREATED: 01 JUN 20:18 2009

About the routing... After CHI I would fly to Ferrara, along the Po river to Cremona (below Garda CTR... be prepared to avoid obstacles :}) Voghera, Passo dei Giovi, Genova (never had problems with Genova) then coast line to France. A lot of aerodromes or strips along the way in case of need.
Call the handling companies to know about fuel price and availability.
I know for sure Genova is 2€ per liter :oh:. Try Albenga LIMG, Reggio Emilia LIDE and Cremona LILR, or Voghera LILH, they have AVGAS, not sure about costs.
Cross Appennini via Passo dei Giovi or passo del Turchino, I would avoid crossing Alps with no experience of mountain flights and a good knowledge of the area.

[SP-THC]

Guys, thanks a lot, everything is clear now :)