Taif

[Miserable Old Git]

Hello,

I've been offered a job in the sandpit in Taif (Typhoon project). Whilst I'm happy with the money and benefits being offered, I need to know a little more. Does anyone have any experience of the base and the surrounding area or info about working for Bae? Any advice greatly appreciated.

MOG

[AYTCH]

It's been a while (left the pit in 2001) but guess old info is better than no info till someone with more knowledge can add their piece.

Was based at Tabuk at the start of the ADV/Hawk time there. Went to Taif on a couple of occassions in aircraft so didn't really get out and about to check the place out. However, what I do know is that it was more primitive and less developed than Tabuk. As a comparitive, Tabuk was dire in the beginning. Girls had to wear the full gear (including headscarves) in town and there were no western shops or restaurants. The place was completely religious and like going back 300 years when comparing to lifestyle, environment and people with Riyadh and 500 years compared to Dhahran. That was in 1999 but it did improve when the Royals realised they needed to pump modern day into the area or the much needed hired help would leave (many did on behest of the hausfrau who couldn't deal with how primitive it was). BAE Systems also put money into new compounds, a school (the existing one was awful) and facilities. As I left in July 2001, the first Mickey-D's was opening and whilst that may sound bad in itself, it heralded a swing and acceptance of the new westerners and Tabuk ramped itself towards the 20th Century. I understand from friends who remain there that it is quite acceptable nowadays. Still no Dhahran but it was never going to be.

Taif had the same ancient view on things and unless the Americans in the area (Saudi F-15 base and believe US Army helping out Saudis with their tanks) have pushed the thing along it may be still in the position that Tabuk was. That in itself shouldn't stop you going as each to their own and whether it has modernised or not, only you can decide ultimately if it is for you. The bonus is that with Typhoon, BAE will put lots of money into the town and the area so in time it will become a more bearable place to be for westerners. The only variable will be whether your bucket of cash still outweighs your bucket of ****; if it doesn't, then go home.

Overall, the money was great for me but the bucket of **** rapidly filled and after 2 years i had had enough.

Not great info re Taif but as I said, until someone else with better knowledge of Taif replies, at least it is something to consider.

Aytch

[soddim]

As for working for BAE is concerned - sounds to me like you are already under a misaprehension. In Saudi you may be contracted to BAE but you will be working for the Saudis, do not expect otherwise.

BAE will hire you but they will drop you like a ton of bricks if you fail to do whatever the Saudis want you to do.

A closely worded contract would help if you can get one.

[Groundaphobic]

I have worked out of most places in Saudi over the last 18 months, and spent 2 months operating out of Taif last year. Out of all the places I was working, Taif was the best......but however, before you get excited, I have to say that it is a relitive term, and generaly the country is pretty grim.

We were in the Intercontental hotel there, which wasn't bad. Good facilities and health club. I did have the opertunity to visit some of the American contactors who lived in a compoud near the base, (a former McDonald Douglas facility if memory serves), but that was allot more basic.

As alredy stated, the Saudi mentality is still so way back in the dark ages, that it is beyond belief. If I was to describe Saudis in a phrase it would be 'rampantly insecure', as everything is about control, namely theirs over everyone else. As already stated, women are second class citizens, are forbiden to drive, and must be covered head to foot with just the eyes showing when outside.

Prayer time dominates EVERYTHING. 5 times a day everything shuts down, and getting anything done, especially if it involves officials, is impossible.

Don't even think about driving there, get a local driver. If you get involved in an accident, (which is highly likley as the standards of driving there are abysmal), IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT, and this will most likely end in jail time and a lot of heartache.

You will find that Saudis don't talk to you, they talk AT you. Remember, that when you are there you are nothing but an infidel; and only reason that you are there is because they need you, and they tend to resent that.

I would certainly NEVER contemplating takeing my family there; but if you are young free and single, and there is the oppertunity to make good money for a couple of years, then why not go fo it. But then again, as a young free and singly guy remember there is no girls and no booze, so if that's your thing, forget it.

Good luck!

Any questions, feel free to PM me

[coffindodger]

Well having recently just left there less than 3 months ago and was there in the compound , the same compound as Groundaphobic must have visited for a glass or three of brown water.
Taif is like any where in Saudi its what you make of it. As for me i enjoyed Taif, but yes its hard work, socially there not a lot to do.
Either the two compounds or even the nurses hospitals social parties.
Shopping well the one decent new Mall is all ladies clothes and of course a Panda food store.
Jeddah is about a 2 hour drive from Taif which is about nearly 5000 feet up in the mountains.

Groundaphobic please pm me as i must know you.
I am now in Riyadh thanks

[AYTCH]

MOG,

Good info from Groundaphobic and Coffindodger. Forgot to say, feel free to PM me. I can at least talk with authority about working for BAE Systems if not about Taif; (of course, only if you don't get the info you require in this thread and still feel the need of someone else's thoughts on BAE dear chap).

Aytch

[Miserable Old Git]

Thank for the replies. I have spent a little time - well, too much actually, in Saudi (PSAB), although it's a few years now, but I'm well aware of the attitude towards us infidels and the way in which your life at work has to change. That was a military job and was therefore fully supported. Oh, and it was only for 2 months at a time.

I was thinking more about the social side of life and what facilities there are on base or in a compound that I might end up in. Also I have no idea about the standard of housing that is offered and where it might be.

Interesting comment about not taking the family. My kids are very young and I guess it will make little difference to them over the 2 or 3 years I plan to be there. However, it's a big deal for the wife. She wants to support me but I don't think she'd hack it being there full time. We have talked about her spending half her time in country and half out, but i don't know if that's possible. What is there for wives to do?

Anyway, any further info about Taif, the base and anything else about working for Bae (yes, I know it's for the Saudis really) would be great.

MOG

[coffindodger]

M.O.G Please check youir pm's

[Miserable Old Git]

Thanks for the PMs guys. Got a big decision to make now....Gulp!

[Shot to the Beach]

Hi MOG,

I'm currently in Saudi (with BAE) with my family (wife and 2 young kids) and for us it works perfectly. Kids enjoy school and Mr STTB finds enough to do to keep herself busy. We do however keep our house empty in UK and a car in the garage and the family spend exactly their allowance of 120 days back in the UK - all the school hols basically. The company allowance covers all our travel expenses. We find this helps a lot, many families here rent their homes out for extra cash, which is understandable, but they seem to find it unsettling not having a 'home' whilst they live here in their 'holiday home'. Compound life for young kids (under 12) is great in many ways, as long as their are other kids of a similar age/outlook as yours, otherwise it can suck. Works great for us. PM if you need to chat

[ix_touring]

Kid's prospective:

I moved to Saudi aged 2.5 in 1976, (Dad worked for Lockheed then BAE), lived and went to school in Taif for 6 years, then back to the UK boarding, going to Taif for the school holidays.

In the Pre 9/11 days, it was basic, no MCDs as mentioned, some shopping was limited eg no Lea and Perrins or Colemans mustard (bring from the UK) but school was enjoyable (there were 2 international schools one on the US grade system, the other UK based), shopping was cheap and the compounds were safe. When older it was safe enough for me to walk into town (13/14 years old) with my mates.

Alcohol was readily available if you went looking for it (we had a still in the spare bathroom but that's another story := ) though Brands had to come through the American Mission.

Climate was much nicer than Jeddah, much less humidity. Travel to Jeddah much easier once the "motorway" was built.

As has been said, you make of it what you want, my dad went to Saudi in '73 and finaly left in the mid 90's so something more than the tax free earnings must have kept him there.... Lots of sunny days, big house (compared to the UK), good fresh food etc.

Cheers
iX

[dougieb2]

I've worked in Saudi for Bae since 95. Driving really is not a problem. I've had a couple of small accidents but havn't been in prison yet. Although a friend spent three nights in the nick for jumping a red light.

With cars costing about half the UK price . No road tax and 8p a litre petrol who wouldn't want to drive. Ok it can seem a bit manic at first but it's surprising how quickly you get used to it.

Great place if you fancy running a yank tank.:ok:

[AYTCH]

You can joke about the driving as much as you like but I am telling you from bitter experience....the driving is about as bad and as dangerous as anywhere in the World i have visited. Everyday in Tabuk there was a death/s on the roads. They don't slow down approaching roundabouts/junctions (but especially roundabouts) and will just pull out without peeking round the corner of the tea towel to see the large american-style truck that is bearing down on them and about to send them to paradise. You see, they simply do not care if they die and that is how they drive.

I was in a serious accident not long after arriving that meant hospital (which was fantastic by the way with great and modern facilities and excellent specialists) and 14 weeks off work. The resultant serious neck trauma ended my flying a few years later and meant I spent a thoroughly miserable last 12 months in the RAF, medically grounded, and all ultimately due to the damage done in that accident. I have slowly worsening and permanent problems for the rest of my life because of their fantastic driving.

Going home on the Medina highway, middle lane of 3, full outside lane, truck on the inside, and the ****wit in front of the truck sees a gap in the central reservation that may mean he drives slightly less distance to get where he was going! He turns 90 left in front of me to get from the inside lane to the gap (on a bloody motorway) and with nowhere to go and no stopping distance, T-boned him at about 60mph. That ****er walked away...I went off in an ambulance.

Oh yes, and after the police had been, they declared that it was my fault!! Go figure!! Had to pay him compensation for his injured wrist and replace the ****heap of a car that HE had just written off by driving like a complete ****wit. You see if the christian infidel hadn't been in their Kingdom then I couldn't have hit him so therefore, it must be my fault.

So, in sum, when you do get to Taif, drive defensively but aggressively and you should be Ok but expect the absolute unexpected on the roads. I seriously suggest you listen to dougieb2's suggestion and buy a very large yank tank. At least that way you can take one with you if the ultimate worst happens.

Soz to all for the language, but just thinking back to the moment he turned accross the highway makes my blood boil instantly (especially as his actions ultimately ended my flying career many years earlier than planned!!!!!!) :ugh:

Aytch

[soddim]

You have my sympathy AYTCH. The only reason I did not suffer as you did when one of them decided a red light was green was because I was driving a substantial 4 x 4. Nevertheless, the police tried 100% my fault despite the evidence of a Saudi following me. It took more than 6 months to get a police report (no vehicle repair allowed without one) and I had to take it to the Sharir court where the fat smelly judge said that it would be 50/50. His judgement was that one Saudi said his light was green and the other Saudi said my light was green. My evidence was disbarred because I was an infidel.

Drive carefully out there and pray a lot.

[The Old Fat One]

Two years ago I had the slightly surreal, not to mention terrifying experience of being driven down a Saudi dual carrigeway at close to 80 mph, with the car in front in touching distance, whilst my taxi driver chatted on his mobile, held in one hand, and steered with his elbow, whilst he rested his other hand on the dashboard.

Mad as a box of frogs, but a hell of a lot more dangerous.

[The Masked Geek]

Does anybody have any recent gen on Taif?

I may be off there soon and the wife is badgering me for information.


Ta.

[Pure Pursuit]

Taif is not a place for me however, it does have some advantages in that it is cooler than Riyadh due to its altitude.

The Saudis have put Typhoon there for one reason and one reason only... the area needs to heavily invested in and foriegn contracts will allow that to happen.

I live and work in Riyadh and love it. Yes, the driving is like F1 without rules but IT IS GETTING BETTER. Speed cameras are popping up at a rate that would compete with the breeding rate of rabbits and are having an effect. There is a great deal of talk about women being able to drive in the not too distant future however, I would not place any money on that!

The weekend is Thurs-Fri however, and this is going to happen soon, it is going to change to Fri-Sat in line with other Middle Eastern states. The banks have been told to prepare for it so, expect it to happen soon (ish)

I personally have no issues working with Saudis. If you expect UK standards from them, your stress levels will go through the roof! Set a 'Saudi' benchmark in terms of what you can expect to achieve with them and go on from there. They are, in the whole, polite people who are heavily misunderstood by westerners. Too many people come here and treat is as a det and make little or no effort to immerse themselves.

BAe look after you out here, far far better than the RAF would ever be able to do. Medical facilities are excellent and the compound I live on (Salwa) is very impressive.

Go for it buddy, most people out here love it. A small minority do not enjoy it at all and head home but most expats love it here.

[om15]

I arrived at Khamis in Jan 1977, one of the first jobs was to get a Saudi driving licence, this involved going to Abba and taking the driving test.
This involved driving a reasonably priced car in a straight line up a slight incline, then stopping and reversing back in a straight line.
This was a source of interest to the locals, who turned out in force to watch the events, ( and assist in heaving the cars back on to the road,) many of the locals could not carry out the test, and with goats in the passenger seats and wives in the boot tried many times, but with no sucess.
A licence was assured by paying back handers to the copper in charge, and thus now legal off they went, nightmare to drive out there, I had a part share in a motorbike at the time, but managed to get away unscathed. Get something solid with airbags and wear a seat belt,

BR om15.

[soddim]

Most of the native drivers have fathered their own air bags - many carry their young on their lap when they drive and on their passengers laps!

[adv-ert]

M.O.G

Did nearly 2 years in Tabuk (2005-06) but never been to Taif. It was an interesting time & place but it served its purpose if you know what I mean. PM me if you want some generic info.

adv-ert

[advocatusDIABOLI]

OMG

Taif is OK, but only OK. 2 Compounds both quite small, certainly by Salwa (Riyadh) standards. Some western shopping, but not Riyadh. Saudi is a love it or hate it place, simple as that. Difficult for the wives. New primary school at Taif, but no secondary school may limit options. The people at Taif are friendly and form a close nit commuity. Driving is a special technique used only in saudi!! Defensive, is an understatement.

In Sum: BAE look after their people well, and the Saudis are on the most part fine. The facilities at Taif are basic, and limited. No Seconday school. No entertainment really, most people need to drive to Jeddah (3Hrs) for a decent night out. Climate better than Riyadh but it's all still very 16th Century. The end game is the question..... is the money worth it? It might also depend on the Job in question. Perhaps there might be an opportunity to visit someone before making up your mind?

Good Luck, whatever you decide,

Advo

[pfutre]

Can anybody provide pictures of the so called "compounds" in Taif, please?
I'm about to submit mi CV...

[Flight_Idle]

I spent over twelve years in Riyadh & Al Kharj, drove my own car without any hassle. It all looks manic at first, but one soon gets used to it & it all seems normal.

I left pre 9/11 so I don't know what difference that made. They do have their arsholes, but then, so do we.

I would say that 20% of people hated it with a passion, 10% loved it & 70% somewhere between the two. I liked it myself.

[blinky]

Well theres a mixed bag of replies, Saudi is what it is & sadly I feel BAE dont look after you like they prob could. They do the bare min to look after you, it could be one of the best jobs in the world. Sadly the fitters pay really is quite crap & has not really risen since the late 1990's, our pilots are on a fantastic wage & the company throws money @ the saudi trainees to keep them from bitching.

I did 8 yrs in Tabuk (Jul 2000 - Jul 08), travelled to Khamis, Dhahrain & Taif for work though those days are basically over for the expats, the saudi bae guys do the TDY's now. Taif is pretty basic much like Tabuk, though is close to Jeddah, they all have their pros & cons. Get a car, you will need one BUT make sure you have insurance!

If you are not there already go for a look, if you don't like it, keep your comments to yourself & simply make your next holiday a one way trip. You have nothing to lose (except pommy tax). I left as i simply had enough.

Blinky Morris

[Lingo Dan]

I worked for a European company (not BAe) in Jeddah for 11 years and I'll pick up on a few points in earlier posts.

Yes, the driving is certainly "different", but most ex-pats sharpen up quickly - and survive. Adapting to UK driving on leave takes a day or so, however, and occasionally resulted in indrawn breath from Mrs LD! But being tied to a driver in Saudi would be very restricting - and would be costly and possibly unreliable.

When I left, two years ago, secondhand car prices were much less than in UK and petrol does really cost pennies per litre. There was a debate whether a tank-like car or a nimble one was best, and I went for "nimble!" In our company, with about 1100 employees, I knew of many traffic accidents involving our people but none where an ex-pat was found to be in the wrong just for being an ex-pat. No doubt it happens, but not in my experience.

Jeddah has some of the best scuba diving in the world, and I seemed to meet lots of BAe people from Taif who were prepared to come to Jeddah at weekends for that - and not just divers, families also. Lots of hotel package deals available.

There are some jobs for women: teachers, nurses, doctors, etc. Jeddah is definitely more relaxed in dress requirements than Taif - abayas for the women and guys usually don't wear shorts in public.

I think since the "new" king came to power in 2005, the country is indeed moving forward into a later century. Women driving has been debated since I went there in 1996, but more and more Saudi women are in the workplace, in finance and banking in particular.

Mistiming prayer time can be a pain, and you ends up joining others, who have made the same mistake, lurking outside supermarkets etc. However, once you work the timings out, it's livable with. I used to leave to go shopping about 10 minutes after the evening prayer call - and the shops are usually closed for about 30 -35 minutes. Shops seem to be until all hours, but closed in the afternoons, other than the big supermarkets, which seem to work 24/7.

I do agree that there may be some Saudis who indeed talk at you and regard all expats with suspicion. However, as the population becomes more educated and "internationalised", and more Saudis work for western companies with western bosses, I saw this situation improve a lot over my time in Saudi.

Compared to Oman, where I also spent a decade with my family, I think there was a great ex-pat spirit in Saudi. I was lucky in having a job I enjoyed; make some great friends; did over 700 scuba dives; paid no income tax; and loved missing the UK winter. However, as in all jobs, it also had its moments!!

[saudih]

You can PM me if you still need info on Taif....

[Miserable Old Git]

or me.

I’ve been here two years now and know Taif and the project reasonably well

MOG

[Halton Brat]

Ex-military aircraft engineering UK guys have been going to that large beach area since I was a nipper in the RAF. If it appeals to you, go do it - so long as you are prepared to take the crap that goes with it.

However, though I realise that this is an intensely personal decision, there are alternatives.

Well before you leave the Service:

a) Study for your EASA Part66 Engineer's Licence & pass the modules.

b) Get a Type Rating course on a commercially popular Type.

c) Work as a freelance contract Engineer in civil aviation in Europe.

d) Spend your spare time counting your cash.

You will make far more money, have a good lifestyle & even if you are working away from home, you will get home as often as you like - most contracts I have done have been 50/50, ie 2wks on/off or similar.

I have spent the last 11yrs thus; I survived (job-wise) 9/11, SARS, sundry wars & financial turmoil.

Guys, let go of the military apron strings & sample a different environment. Just start preparing for it now!

HB

[Highlander40]

Hi all.

I am possibly coming across to Taif with BAE Systems, and wondered what the Compound is like re family accommodation. Is it reasonably spacious, even if dated? Are they furnished and what facilities are available. Am ex forces as is the other half, so used to making do so to speak.

I would be really grateful for any info re cost of flights to other locations, eg, Egypt, Sri Lanka etc. Am coming to make the most of the tax free situation, and save as much as possible. Not a drinker, that's for the youngsters these days lol, and as for shopping, I don't think the wife could possibly dream uo another excuse to have this that or the other. Enough shoes to open a shop! Sound familiar guys? Is it possible to manage without a vehicle until the famil join me? How far from the Compound is the workplace. Have googled as much as is possible, but not a great deal of information available. Maybe that in itself should tell me something. However, we are a quiet family, and I guess lead quite a simple life, however we do like adventure and travel. So, hopefully this will be possible, even if the decor of our new home is dire. It's a base after all, and we will make the most of what we have whilst there.

I also have a child at Primary Scnool, so any info re education and activities would be appreciated. In fact any information would be helpful.

Apologies for the many questions all. :-)

[Al Cobarr]

1) Decent size houses on the compound and furnished. I assume you'll be on 'preferential married status' ? The minions (me) have to wait 2/3 years to bring their families out.

2) Flights to Egypt roughly 200 quid and Sri Lanka from 300. Flights to UK from 400 to 800 quid economy depending on the time of year.

3) Airbase is 10 mins from the married compound.

4) Small primary school on the compound. Limited activities, swimming pool, gym, tennis, squash etc. Jeddah (beach and shopping) 2 or 3 hours away depending on speeding tickets !

Conditions here are vastly inferior to Dhahran and Riyadh and Taif itself is centuries behind ! But some people enjoy it here. Not a drinker though...........that could be a deal breaker !!!!!!:)

[Mary123]

Hi,
Is there any expat family still living here? Iam here for 1 and 1/2 yr. didn't meet any yet. Iam still searching.

[mosmac]

Hi guys

I'm new to this but just wanted to see if could get a better idea what to expect when I go to Saudi.

Supposed to be going working for 12 days in Taif at the airbase, me and 3 others are staying at the Intercontinental hotel Taif. Anyone stayed there? Just asking because I presumed when going Saudi people stayed in compounds so just wondering if it's safe staying in hotels or is it just me worrying too much?

Any help would be appreciated thanks