The average SLF experience is a miserable one

[Michael Birbeck]

The term Self Loading Freight is an ironic (some might say humorous) one but it also reflects a financial truth that people are cargo and that the more you can pack onto an aircraft the higher will be the carrier's return per air mile. Despite the enormous benefits that the industry has brought to millions of people through efficiencies at every level in the aviation business I was pondering how many more "efficiencies" the average (economy passenger) will be able to withstand before the whole passenger experience becomes intolerable. I was sitting admiring a Sunderland flying boat with a long retired airline captain the other day and he was waxing lyrical about the enormous luxuries enjoyed by the early passengers on the Imperial Airline routes (well before his time). I was quick to point out that these passengers were representatives of the moneyed classes and that modern aviaion has ushered in freedom for the masses. He agreed but asked me if I thought that flying as an "average" passenger" was a tolerable experience. He travels often to France and now always uses the train in preference to scheduled airlines as he finds the French train exeperience more "civilised". What do pilots and passengers think? I was apt to think about this all again after reading this article in The Times.

Cassandra: aeroplane etiquette - Times Online (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/ariel_leve/article6068347.ece)

[WHBM]

The term Self Loading Freight is an ironic (some might say humorous) one but it also reflects a financial truth that people are cargo and that the more you can pack onto an aircraft the higher will be the carrier's return per air mile...... Sunderland flying boat with a long retired airline captain the other day and he was waxing lyrical about the enormous luxuries enjoyed by the early passengers on the Imperial Airline routes
This description is so full of inaccuracies that I'll just pick a few.

"The more you pack the higher return". This flies in the face of mainstream airline wisdom that it is the Premium, well spaced-out, nicely catered seats at the front where the money is made. Ask BA. And ask all those high-density seating carrers who have gone out of business.

"Sunderland" and "luxury" in the same sentence ? It had fixed seats, a tinpot galley which couldn't even manage ice for the drinks, vibration beyond adjectives from the four piston engines, no pressurisation so it blew your ears, reliability which led to arrivals at Southampton often days late and an accident record such that you needed to take out supplementary insurance. All for a return fare to Australia of more than the average annual salary.

In "Sunderland" I take it as a reference to the Empire/Sandringham/Solent types. The actual Sunderland was a military RAF aircraft.

[Michael Birbeck]

The Sunderland just prompted the thought of flying boats. I take it you flew on one of the Empire flying boats? :p

As one who has moved cargo (not humans) over the years then I can only say, more cargo, more money. If you agree with the statement that passengers are not to be treated as cargo but as human beings then I am with you and the enlightened elements within the industry.

Haven't flown with BA recently. If they are giving passengers more room than I suffered the last time with them then good for them. Was hoping not to make this thread airline specific!

[manintheback]

The bit from take-off to landing is invariably ok. its what happens either side thats invariably not ok.
My break point used to be 4 hours, less dont fly. Now sadly its gone up to 6.

[boardingpass]

I think the worst part is really just the airport experience. Buying a ticket online is quite easy, and if you print a boarding pass at home, it's not so bad. But if you have to arrive early at the airport, far from the city centre, wait in long queues, be humiliated by security, gate changes, etc, etc...

WHBM has it right. If you want to pay civilized first class fairs, flying can still be rather civil. If you want to get from A to B for the cheapest possible cost, it's bring your own caviar I'm afraid.

[angels]

When my dad (in the RAF) was posted from Malaya to Ceylon in 1945 he went the entire way by Sunderland.

He said he was still vibrating days later.

[radeng]

Boardingpass has it about right. Once on you are on board, you get pretty well what you pay for. BA tend to be a bit better than most of the ones I've tried: First class is very good.

But the hassle at the airport is the problem. It would help if the security people at Heathrow had ever heard of the word 'please'.

[GroundedSLF]

I actually think the experiance is pretty much the same as it was 20 years ago on board (economy), as said by others, its the airport experiance that has got worse, although the introduction of the "print at home" boarding pass has at least cut the check in queue out of the experiance.

I have to say that personally USA airport security is by far the worst bit about the journey now - it is getting to the point where you think about travelling in just a thong (and trust me - I dont look good in a thong!) to avoid the taking off of belts, shoes, coats, etc.

Personally I would be quite happy to walk through one of those "full bodied x ray things" where the operator can see you naked, if it avoided all the security hassles...

[gdiphil]

I have to agree it is the airport experience which is the worst part of it all. Back in 1978 when I flew on a 747 for the first time it only took 1 hour from getting in the queue to check in to push back. Now one spends forever at everything. In addition to all the airport hassles we know about I find there are too many shops around. I prefer somewhere quiet, just a place to get a cup of coffee and then a seat to look out of a window. Shopping is not what I want. If I can I try to fly from small airports but of course that is often not possible. Where possible now I take to crossing the pond by ship and have virtually given up on flying to Europe, trains and cars are much better. I reserve flying to a necessity eg London to Oz.
Flying itself is still generally speaking a reasonable experience, even in economy. However the advent of touch screens has been a serious down grade in my view. In fact entertainment systems generally I would rather do without and have the underseat leg room back by getting rid of those boxes.
Unfortunately some carriers have also down graded the seat pitch to such an extent I won't use them any more, BA being a very unfortunate example since their service levels are good.
And as for the "old" days, well I bounced all the way from London to Singapore and back in a Bristol Britannia in the early 1960's. I prefer flying today it is fair to say.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

And as for the "old" days, well I bounced all the way from London to Singapore and back in a Bristol Britannia in the early 1960's.

Ditto, but it did beat the RAF alternative! Arrived at Peya Leba (sp?) happy after sharing a bottle of brandy and chatting up the friendly and good looking cabin staff. Neither would have been available on Transport Command's Brit or Comet.
The general consensus is right, it's the bits before and after the trip which are a pain in the butt, the on board experience is still (mostly) OK.

[Crusher1]

It's the airport experience that hurts, what makes it even worse is the inconsistency with security depending on where you fly from.

For a short trip to, say, Paris give me the train any day.

I don't find much difference between carriers in economy, for example I have recently flown with Iberia and Qantas short haul and they were no better or worse than Easyjet or Virgin Blue, ok for a short hop but pretty terminal for anything over three hours.

I would doubt that the "good old days" could match today's business or first class product in terms of comfort or amenities though, we all look back with rose tinted glasses but honestly a 777 beats a DC-4 anyday!

[Avman]

but honestly a 777 beats a DC-4 anyday!

:{:{:{ Sacrilege!

[Seat62K]

This is a difficult one, partly because we can't trust our memories (nostalgia isn't what it used to be, is it?).

One thing's for sure, though - ultra longhaul nonstops have made economy class long distance travel a pretty awful experience for a great many people. No wonder Singapore has no economy on its longest flights (correct me if I'm wrong).

On the other hand, I remember BA First Class was no better than the first Club (the cradle seats, remember?) and when forty years ago all passengers had their suitcases opened on entry to the US.

The numbers travelling then were, of course, much lower - even a full VC10 arriving at Boston or Chicago will have delivered fewer than 140 arrivals. Now we have the A380.....

P.S. Getting to many airports has improved. Who remembers the rigmarole of getting the A1 bus from Hounslow West, where the Piccadilly Line used to terminate?!

[Snoopy]

The average SLF experience is indeed a miserable one, but not quite as miserable as staying at home! :}

[arkmark]

I think its just miserable.

I dislike it from start to finish and where I can I avoid it like the plague.

The reduction of customer service by the airlines has really done just what you are saying for me.

I fly business between syd-per monthly and it is just suckful. The mealsy s are what i used to get on Ansett years ago in economy, and they dont even serve desert any more.

The fifty minute wait for bags at either end (usually sydney is worse than perth for this) just tops it off, then you have to battle the taxi nazis in sydney

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[scottpe]

My first experience of flying was by far my best experience! In 1957 travelled back from Singapore to UK (my father incidentally was a Flt Eng on Sunderlands at RAF Seletar). Our flight was in an Airwork Hermes (civilian equivalent of the Hastings, I think) we also took off from Paya Lebar and our route was Bankok (refuel) - Calcutta (refuel) - Karachi (nightstop, crew and pax) - Bahrain (refuel) - Beirut (refuel) - Brindisi (nightstop, crew and pax) - Blackbushe! The journey was like a modern day cruise experience, everyone got to know everyone else, the crew seemed like normal human beings,and of course in those days flight deck visits were not only welcomed but were positively encouraged! wonderful for a lad of 10!! You may wonder why coming back from Singapore was my first flying experience, we actually went out by troopship the Empire Fowey, 22 days but thats another story! Yes its true we do tend to remember the "good" times but I've often thought, after years of flying, how nice it would be to relive that journey.

[larssnowpharter]

You may wonder why coming back from Singapore was my first flying experience, we actually went out by troopship the Empire Fowey,

We went out to Singapore (Dad was based at Tengah) in 1951 in a Valetta. I am told the trip took four days and the pax stayed in the same hotel as the crew.

Came back in '55 in a shiny new Hastings.:ok:

[WHBM]

In 1957 travelled back from Singapore to UK .......I've often thought, after years of flying, how nice it would be to relive that journey.
Do read the book "Beyond the Blue Horizon" by Alexander Frater, who did a comparable thing, retracing the route in recent times of the old Empire Flying Boats of the 1930s from London to Australia, stopping at all the same points along the way. Probably one of the best books about old-time commercial aviation ever written.

[Michael Birbeck]

"Beyond the Blue Horizon". What an evocative piece of writing. :ok:

Was racking my brains or what's left of them. Wasn't there an attempt by a French chap, a couple of years ago, to set up a luxury trans Africa service following the old Imperial Airways route to Durban or Cape Town? I think he intended to use a Catalina (not a Short Empire but still a graceful flying boat from another continent).

I suspect that wars, bureaucracy and good old fashioned economics may have scuppered this idea. :(

I believe the Empire S.23 was the direct precursor to the military Sunderland. If the stories of the Sunderland's vibration are anything to go by, how bad was the Empire flying boat? Perhaps the well heeled passengers of the day were made of more sturdy stuff than today's voyagers. I suspect the occasional glass of bubbly and the knowledge that one was part of an empire upon which the sun would never set helped :).

I know my mother made a trip across Africa in the 50's in a DC6 and her being most complimentary about the experience despite the appearance of one of the pilots at certain points with a flash light to look at an engine that was disgorging an inappropriate amount of oil. The commercial industry had obviously moved on rapidly from the 30's and 40's.

[Michael Birbeck]

Trans African Cat (http://www.michaelprophet.com/TransAfricanCat.html)

I knew I was not going mad.

[Michael Birbeck]

African Cat to Kiwi Cat (http://www.catalina.org.nz/African%20Cat.htm)

To have flown a flying boat ...

Will revert to previously advised thread heading Mods, I pray you will forgive this little detour.:\

[scottpe]

Thanks to WHBM I will certainly try and get a copy of said book. Whilst on the subject can anyone recommend similar books about the early Imperial Airways flying boat journeys down to Africa transitting through Khartoum? I would normally "google" this info but feel it is better to obtain first hand information from the learned readers of this forum!!

[PAXboy]

First the 'detour', I have no detail on Imperial but recall my Great Aunt speaking of the flights and how wonderfully fast they were. As I recall from 30 years ago ...
Train from Waterloo to Southampton.
Flight to South of France
Flight to Italy
Flight to Eqypt
Flight to Lake Victoria
Flight to North or South Rhodesia (a river)
Flight to Vaal Dam
For her, train on to Cape Town. At one time, I think they did continue to Table Bay but I'm not sure.

I sit to be corrected on those night stops. But everyone then had their bags carried into the hotel and then dressed for dinner in Black Tie. Best place to ask about this is in: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia-86/

Back to the thread title:
The modern SLF experience is what it is. No one can be in any doubt as to what they are going to get, both on the ground or in the air. As in most things, by the application of more money, the experience can be made nicer. Most people I know prefer to pay less money and get to the destination, accepting that it will not be much fun. I expect no improvement in the situation in my lifetime.

[WHBM]

Train from Waterloo to Southampton......
Back in 1939 it was a slightly different route (and to Durban, not Vaal Dam) but here is the timetable on the web :

Imperial Airways (http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/iaw39f-3.htm)

[Michael Birbeck]

The Empire route to JHB terminated on the Vaal Dam. I guess it would have been followed by a medium distance bus trip into JHB.

Not sure when this route was discontinued.


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%200739.html

[Sultan Ismail]

This weekend I anticipated a crowded scene as part of my first A380 experience. As it turned out everything went smoothly, booking online, boarding online and very civil security staff. In fact I was amused by the separate facility for removing and xraying shoes. Lighten up folks we're travelling economy, it's all part of the fun.
The holding lounges were very well organised with two separate lounges for Upper Deck and Lower Deck. The parties never got to mix, no concentration of bods at the gate, we made our separate ways to the aircraft.
Last week I flew out on a 777-300ER and the return on the A380, at the back of the Upper Deck, was identical in layout and seating.
Couldn't bitch about the food, the Fillet Steak served on the outbound leg was as good as any I have had in a fine dining restaurant. I was surprised!
I am a frequent flier, this was my third long haul trip this year, and having returned last night from London, my first task this morning was to book a return to London for end of May.
Last weeks trip was Kuala Lumpur-Singapore, Singapore-Zurich (777-300ER), Geneva-London City (RJ100), Heathrow-Singapore (A380-800) and Singapore Kuala Lumpur.
Earlier trips this year have been KUL to Johannesburg direct with Malaysian (747-400), and KUL via SIN to Johannesburg (777-200ER).
Checking my passports a couple of weeks ago I noted that I have crossed the South Indian Ocean 63 times in the last 15 years, all as SLF.
Finally, (thank god you say) I will comment on fares, last weeks trip booked on line 3 weeks ago cost RM5,000, my next trip booked this morning for 4 weeks hence cost RM3,500. Not complaining, presumably the upside of yield management.

[deltayankee]

C'mon guys, we're comparing a luxury elite product of the 30s with a modern low cost option. This is hardly fair. If you want to compare honestly then look at the options for the average working joe in these times;

NOW: they have an uncomfortable but short flight that takes them safely to a country far away for a holiday in the sun

THEN: flying was completely out of the question; any travel to other countries was a dream; they'd be lucky to get holidays at all.

At the other end of the market today's product might be less romantic, but a first class flight today is more comfortable, faster, more dependable and safer than in the old days. If you want to dress for dinner nobody is stopping you and if you'd like to be carried to your hotel I am sure we can arrange that too. Remember that in the old days the competition was ships, so of course they had to have formal dinners. Constant vibrations were a pain but it is still better than three weeks of throwing up.

If someone does start an old time flying boat service it will be like big ships -- no longer a means of transport but a recreation for people with too much time and too much money. I hope one day to be in that category because I would like to try it too.