How do you tell someone you won't fly them?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Talking to an acquaintance who has expressed an interest in being taken flying. After some discussion he says "oh by the way I'm frightened of flying". I investigate a bit further and he says he "freaked out" on a holiday jet.

So no way am I taking this guy as a passenger.

The politest way I could think of putting this was "sorry mate, I haven't been trained in how to deal with passengers who are frightened of flying, and one of the ways we stay alive is by not doing things we haven't been trained for".

Was there a better way of putting it?

[mad_jock]

Don't tell them and if they do push the point always call it off saying the wx isn't good enough because you don't want to scare them again. And when they express disappointment suggest they go up with an instructor instead because they are used to deal with this sort of crap and they would get more out of it.

As an ex instructor I really would advise you not to get involved with this sort of problem. Most of us have a war story about having someone with a similar tale going daft on us. 99% of the time we can make a difference and all is well but the 1% are a pain in the arse. And I don't think you are the type to belt them round the head with the fire extinguisher.

[percy prentice]

Tell him that you are just the same as he is over flying, and occasionaly freak out as well.

[cats_five]

Since you were having to make it up as you went along I think you did very well.

Out of curiosity, did you ask him why he wanted you to take him slying since he was scared of it? It crossed my mind he's a cheapskate and didn't want to pay for the commercial courses to help with it. That's assuming he know such courses exist.

[Deeday]

"Sorry mate, but if you freaked out on a commercial jet, chances are that you will freak out twice as hard, on a light aircraft, and that could get us both killed."

Don't tell them and if they do push the point always call it off saying the wx isn't good enough

I can't stand all these little and big hypocrisies, but maybe it's just me (nothing personal, mad_jock). I don't see why grown-up people shouldn't be able to accept the simple truth - tactfully explained - without crying or resenting it (I am assuming that the guy in question is grown-up...)

[jonkil]

Tell him yes, of course he can come flying.
Suggest to him to take this sick bag, as you present him with an empty 25KG brown paper potato sack, tell him to take 2 as they fill up easily.
Take an odd look up at the clouds and mutter to yourself....f**k this is going to be rough, and say "hey mate" better go and use the bog before you get in..." have I mentioned your seat belt doesn't work and I only have one parachute, my last passenger has yet to be found with my last one... and you ain't bloody getting mine.
This usually assures them.

[expedite08]

As long as he will pay for it, take him! :E Its free flying for you!

[goatface]

Or you could just be completely honest and use your original thought as the proper explanation, that way you've said it like it is - honesty is the best policy (most of the time:E).

[polohippo]

Just book him a trial lesson with the local school and let them deal with him. Job done!

[Ex Oggie]

I don't understand this fear of flying, aeroplanes don't crash very often........just the once! :p

Seriously though, your friend needs a flying instructor who has experience with 'fear of flying' students. It is quite an involved task if you actually want them to come out the aircraft afterwards having been glad they got in to start with.

XO

[Pace]

There is a big difference being scared stiff of flying and freaking out.
I took a friend who was scared stiff of flying and asked whether he could come along on a twin flight. he was an avid film maker and turned up with his camera. I took him along to help him but lost an engine at 200 feet in the climb out.

he calmy fimed the whole event from takeoff to touchdown and wanted to come on any trip he could after that experience.

Another guy a super cool racing driver who displayed no nerves whatsoever lost the plot big time and froze on the controls when I gave him control.
he refused to let go and literally froze solid.

Both the above are true.

So take him along but also a gun incase he does freak and you need to put him out of his misery :)

Pace

[BeechNut]

I had a passenger panic on takeoff, in my previous PA28. His right leg stiffened and he basically kicked in full right rudder while I was still in ground effect. It was not fun. I had to whack him one and yell "get yer fecking legs off the pedals", I almost ran out of runway in a bird that wouldn't climb. When he finally took his leg off we straightened out and started climbing (as we all know the PA28-140 is a Drag Queen :} )

I makes sure I never miss out on "keep arms and legs away from the controls" in my pre-flight briefing now. Live and learn I guess, if you're lucky enough to live.

Nothing wrong with refusing a flight if you feel the passenger may be a major distraction from your main job.

Beech

[IFMU]

The only passenger I had freak was my wife. But of course that was before we were married, when she still would pretend that it was ok. Her freak out was not too bad, it was a bumpy takeoff from grass in a Grob 103. She kept saying "Oh my God, oh my God" funny part is she didn't realize she was saying it out loud. I found myself reaching for the release, then decided the safe thing was to get at least to pattern altitude. Once above the trees when it smoothed out she calmed down. Even with this 'easy' passenger freak out scenario, it adds a lot to your stress and workload. I would not want to have somebody lock on the controls. I would use the fire extinguisher. Better to not have left the ground.

What would you tell them? The truth.

-- IFMU

[Whirlybird]

Just tell him that if he's scared it's not a good idea for him to fly with you, but you can recommend a good instructor who could probably help him (if that's the case). But it's the way you say whatever you say that'll make the difference. Don't make a big deal out of it; just be very straightforward and honest and tell him the truth.

[172driver]

Short and simple answer: just say "NO".

Long and a bit more complicated answer:
Once had similar request from a friend. This guy is a frequent LH flyer (for business), but scared of flying. Wanted to see how he would cope in a SEP. Now, he's a tall, strong guy, not someone you want to grab the controls and freeze. Solution came in the form of his girlfriend, who, by dint of fate, had been flying in little planes since childhood and loved it. So: girlfriend in the front right seat, the tall, scared one in the back. The drill was he would tell me immediately if anything felt wrong and I would head straight back to the airport, no questions asked. Guess what: the flight turned into a two-hour sightseeing trip which all three of us loved.

My guess (pure speculation, I have no proof for this) is, that many people who say they are scared of flying actually suffer from claustrophobia and/or some form of agoraphobia and hence feel very, very uncomfortable crammed into a metal tube with a lot of strangers. Add to that the feeling of being at someone's (the crew) mercy, and you got a recipe for 'freaking out' (especially on a holiday charter :eek:)

Being in a small a/c with big windows and a pilot they can talk to is different.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Thanks all.

I note the suggestion to use the fire extinguisher, and will remember this if I ever need it.
When taking more than one passenger I already put the most experienced light aircraft passenger in the front.
I note, with no surprise, that nobody thinks I was wrong to say "no"!

[mad_jock]

I note the suggestion to use the fire extinguisher

Lets hope the security bods at various airports don't read this :)

And it really can be the people you least expect that give you the most grief.

The nearest I got to belting someone was with a 70 year old 65kg granny. I am 105kg big lad and she refused point blank to surrender control on a trial flight. Wouldn't respond to anything I said and when I prised her hands off the controls 2 secs latter they were back on and I couldn't over power her on my set. In the end on approach I took a knuckle down the front of her chest while pitching the nose high. When she let go to stop me I pulled the seat adjuster and the seat went to the back of the track and she couldn't reach anything and I had to avoid her arms battering around as she struggled to try and get the seat forward again to be able to reach the controls. Landed and she never said another word and walked straight from the aircraft to her car without a backward glance.

Scuffles in the cockpit are bloody scary for any level of experience of pilot.

[Heliplane]

I had somewhat of an opposite experience - while instructing in a far away land (about 15 years ago), I had a trial lesson where the prospective student explained that he flew model aircraft, knew everything about light aircraft and could fly "one of these little things" without any instruction. He assured me he could take off and land and really didn't need me there for anything.

I demonstrated the preflight, startup, taxi and runup and he tried to make it clear to me that I was wasting my time explaining this to him - he knew it all already...

I tried to explain the takeoff procedure (C-172) but he really wasn't interested (you've guessed it - already knew how to take off). I lined us up on the runway (5,000 feet long, 100 feet wide) and told him that he would be handling the controls (just the yoke - I did the power and pedals).

We started rolling down the runway, his hands confidently on the yoke and my right hand surreptitiously resting on my right knee when, suddenly, at about 50 kts, he recoiled into the fetal position screaming "oh my G-d, you take it...."

I climed up to about 2,500 and slowly re-introducted him to the controls - funnily enough, he was slightly less arrogant.

[VFE]

Gertrude,

I would be interested to know the extent of the "freaking out" - did he/she say in what way they "freaked out"? Some people sit quietly and freak whilst others get more physical and it's those latter ones you want to avoid taking up. Even as an instructor I would be very cautious about taking someone up whom I knew had a history of "freaking out" and would simply question their motives for wishing to subject themselves to that same trauma again because to my relatively sane mind it doesn't add up, eg; I hate spiders and would not wish to touch one!

The bottom line as already highlighted by Mad_Jock is that if there's any doubt then don't do it.

VFE.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I would be interested to know the extent of the "freaking out" - did he/she say in what way they "freaked out"?
Didn't ask - I'd already heard enough and decided:
that if there's any doubt then don't do it.
I'm not qualified to judge that sort of thing, am I.

[mad_jock]

Yes you are Gertrude :) your just as qualified as myself or any other Captain of an aircraft. You know your limits and comfort zone, we don't. What I would choose to do is completely up to me. As I haven't flown a SEP for the last 4 years I wouldn't take them up either, even if I got my rating back. My reply wouldn't be as polite as yours probably will be, but my 2 words would mean the same as your 10-15.

VFE wouldn't have a problem along with alot of other people in this forum.

Listen to your gut feeling as you already have.

In fact I think this type of thread is what the private flying forum is all about.

It provokes people to think, they might not post but they read and think the problem through and come up with a solution before they have even been confronted with the problem personally.

[tmmorris]

The only time it has happened to me I was very inexperienced - about 50hrs total, I think - and a friend of mine said he was scared of flying but wanted to try to overcome it as he fancied the idea of Le 2K for lunch. We agreed to try a quick bimble out of Oxford. He didn't freak out in a dangerous way (and I didn't expect him to - I know him well) but he produced a hip flask and started swigging away. By the time we returned to the circuit at Oxford - we'd only got as far as Enstone! - he'd finished the flask. I had to drive him home.

Oddly, his fear was that he'd open the door (PA28, so on his side) and jump/fall out. I tried to explain that with the slipstream he wouldn't even get it open but he couldn't overcome the fear and hasn't been up with me since.

Tim

[mary meagher]

Hi, Gertrude! Very sensible question. As a gliding instructor since l989, I have flown with all sorts. We have a lot of training to endure before we are trusted to be P1, with friends and family or with a student. The most memorable moment on my course was when the Senior Instructor, a large gentleman, after I had demonstrated the basic turn and invited him to "have a go", pulled the stick back completely and shoved in left rudder. "Like this?" he enquired, as we entered the spin. . . . You passed the course if you got his attention.

I have found over the years that prevention is better than cure. Freaking out frightened people should be passed on to professionals, who have been forewarned. The only point that MUST be made to anyone going for their first flight in a light aircraft or glider, before you fly, is that if you say "I have control!" they
LET GO! And if you suspect that your pax is truly frightened, or turning green, ask "Would you like to go back now?" This does not plant the suggestion in their mind that they might need a sick bag (you did remember to bring one, didn't you?)

[Whirlybird]

I've never had anyone completely freak out on me, though it's come close a couple of times. My rules for the borderline cases, or anyone who seems scared and/or overconfident...they can go together...

1) Make it clear it's normal to be nervous in a tiny little helicopter...and possibly abnormal not to be. That means they don't escalate the fear - I'm scared of being scared and of my instructor knowing I'm scared etc etc. And it means they can talk about it.
2) Monitor them carefully as you do the warm-up etc. Do they have' white knuckle syndrome' already.
3) A couple of minutes after taking off, ask: "Are you OK?" If necessary tell them you can go back if they're not.
4) Tell them to relax and enjoy the view for the first few minutes.
5) Hand over control the first time for about 30 seconds, then take it back, and tell them to take a couple of deep breaths and pat themsleves on the back for doing so well.
6) Chat in a relaxed manner to take their mind off the fear.
7) Only give them back control if it seems safe to do so, otherwise come up with some excues...the weather isn't suitable, you've got things you'd like to show them etc. Or just be honest - I've told big guys they're not relaxed enough and if they freeze on the controls I'm too small to get them off and we'll both die! Works for the over-confident ones; the really nervous ones will probably accept the weather excuse...with relief!

After that - play it by ear! But unless you're a professional instructor, why risk getting into this situation in the first place? :confused:

[VFE]

As PIC you are qualified to make any decision you like to maintain the safety of your aircraft and the best way to maintain safety if there's any doubt is to stay on the ground. As an instructor, rather surprisingly, we receive very little official guidance on how to handle unruly passengers/students apart from what our FIC instructor may have related to us through their own experiences during our training for the job. We get to chat with Special Branch on a regular basis but it's alarming how very little even they understand about our environment and what we do... but I digress.

There really is very little "in the book" on coping with unlawful interference in our environment because (I would guess) it largely depends on the specific circumstances of the situation. Most of what I know comes from experience... eg; a quiet passenger usually indicates a nervous one, but then so does one who talks incessantly! You just have to weigh it all up on its own merits and communication certainly is the only key.

As an instructor I get paid for that hassle but as a PPL holder out for a "jolly" I wouldn't possibly entertain it.

VFE.