Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?

[Donlado]

Thought I would ask you Officer types of pprune if you think that junior officers ought to spend time in the ranks.

After 14 years of service, I have worked for three or four officers younger than myself. I have had very little trouble with this, however they have such little experience, that they have to ask questions all the time.

They build their experience by "using" their SNCO's and JNCO's knowledge.

If they were to spend a couple of years as a JNCO, or at least in a JNCO post, this would help them see what it is really like on the shop floor.

I feel it would also help the way that they are perceived by junior ranks across the board.

I have found that the best officers I have worked for have come from the ranks.

[minigundiplomat]

Officers.

Able to tell you the atomic density of a jar of jam, couldnt tell you how to get the lid off.

It works in the format we currently have. Lets not fix something that isnt broken.

[ProfessionalStudent]

MGD

I'm both flattered and offended!!:ok:

Hope all is well

[Gainesy]

Well they would at least learn how to wear a beret so they don't look like a helo pad on a lighthouse.
:)

[airborne_artist]

Agree with the beret problem - why can't they be taught the art of beret-wearing?

As for serving in the ranks, you then spend 6-9 months training someone to do a job for 15-18 months that they'll never do again, and lots of good potential officers would not join without a confirmed place on IOT, so you can't make everyone join in the ranks and only select for commissioning once they've done a couple of years.

Bring back five years as officer cadets, like my father had. Went to Dartmouth at 13, passed out into fleet training at 18, by which time he'd had a very good academic training, and learned an immense amount of naval knowledge, too. By the time he was 18 he could solder, weld, braze, rivet, and also strip and rebuild engines, weapons and basic radio kit. He was a seaman officer....

[downsizer]

Donaldo...

Nice to see you trolling here now...

Did you get bored here Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks? - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=24188)

[exscribbler]

A-A: A seaman officer - the Master Race! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe the RNoAF have this requirement. We also came upon an elderly gent in VASF at Lista. He had had time promotion in that one job, I believe he was a Lt Col.

Now in the RAF, to put all JO into airmen billets to JNCO rank would displace many airmen from getting promotion. As Cpls have rather more experience than even a new flt lt, just how long would you propose that officers serve before promotion?

Pretty clearly the OP was refering to Logs and HR rather than aircrew or ops support as they rarely get close enough to airmen.

The new officer is not expected to be as proficient in the trade as the SNCO but a good one will learn quickly from that SNCO.

Many years ago it was the norm for crusty SNCOs to help and mentor plt off and fg off but to expect a flt lt to know which way was up. Since many flt lt were straight out of training this was quite difficult for the new JEngO.

[baffy boy]

No no no no no no no no.

[davejb]

No,
the good guys will pick it up from SNCOs as they progress, the idiots won't get the idea if they spend 300 years as an SAC.

This really hurts, but I agree with MGD!

[NutLoose]

An interesting concept, but please do not dilute the quality of the other ranks by doing this.

[airborne_artist]

So if you have guys going into the ranks who know that in xx months they are off to IOT, some will try hard to learn, some will do the minimum, and some will be complete pillocks telling everyone they are off to IOT soon. Not so great for morale and teamwork.

Leave it well alone. It's not that broken.

[Tankertrashnav]

I wish I'd spent 3 years in the ranks - the reason being I was commissioned 2 weeks before my 18th birthday and none of my service from then till my 21st birthday counts as pensionable service. If I had been in the ranks all service from 18 would have counted. I have never seen the justice in that, but that's the way it is.

[GreenKnight121]

MARINE CORPS MUSTANG ASSOCIATION (http://www.marinecorpsmustang.org/)

What is a Marine Mustang?

The Answer is:
Any Marine, after having served on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the United States Marine Corps or Marine Corps Reserve, has risen to the officer ranks, and further served as a commissioned or warrant officer on either active duty or reserve status. The title includes all such Marines: active duty, reserve, retired, and/or honorably discharge.
The title of a Marine of this status is, and shall evermore be...MUSTANG!
"There is no honor greater than to be called "Mustang". You have long epitomized the warrior virtues of courage, devotion to duty, sacrifice, and imaginative leadership."
General Alfred M. Gray USMC, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps and a Mustang.
Semper Fidelis – Marines


The USMC has a long tradition of Mustang officers... and a large percentage of its Commandants were former enlisted.

[Grimweasel]

Mate, you reckon?

I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service -- unless of course I went onto the new scheme where it would be backdated to my 16th B-Day - but there is no chance of that....

So my question is, why am I being robbed of 5 years?? It's almost a punishment for 'upgrading' in life ???

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sounds more like a schoolboy error to me :E

[threeputt]

In 1985,at TTTE, I was crewed up with an IAF Tente Colonello who was fragged to go to back to his old Sqn as OC. 22 years previously he had been a Cpl F104 pilot on the same sqn and had gone through the ranks until his final posting. Unfotunatley he failed his IRT in the sim due to language problems.

3P:ok:

[Not Long Here]

Grimweasel,

I left before the debacle called JPA arrived so actually had humans to sort things out. I believe that 50% of Airman service post 18 till Commissioning date counts towards your pension. May be worth asking The Forces Pension Society (http://www.forpen.org/) as they are an excellent resource.

Cheers

[Linedog]

Cpl F104 pilot.............?
Really???:eek:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

No way you would get sensible folk to fly those feckin things :E

[Tankertrashnav]

Hi Grimweasel - didnt know that your airman's service was wiped out for pension purposes once you were commissioned - but the point is had you stayed in the ranks those extra years would have counted. So we've both been robbed - you more than me but there seems no moral justification for it. What's this new scheme - too late for us but does it right this wrong?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

How have you been robbed as you both knew the terms of service you were signing on for :confused:

[Tankertrashnav]

True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?

[dallas]

Got to go with the 'no' crowd. Future rodneys would disrupt the ranks and simply spread the problem wider and for longer. The solution isn't to improve their knowledge so much as to get better at selecting them - just before I left 'breathing' seemed to be one of the few qualifications. Quality control is the key, and there'll always be a supply of talent to pick from - bums on seats motivates nobody.

[Herc-u-lease]

Having done both, I don't think pre-requisite airman service is really a good idea. I got enough hassle for being a mech-tech let alone being a future guaranteed officer. I learned a lot from the ranks and it has certainly helped me in the commissioned world. There are a few major companies that insist their graduate programs spend time on the shop floor; Aldi's management training scheme for one (I'm sure someone will correct me). Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?

[herkman]

I had two ex WW2 NCO pilots as CO's, both had been made officers after the war and eventually obtained one star rank on retirement. Watched for a little while, a newly made up Flying Officer giving his vast knowledge, to our WO engineer leader who was trying to maintain his composure, whilst this prate rambled on. Eventually the CO who had come down to Captain the airplane, had seen enough and from his mouth came the truth. Dear Flying Officer, you may out rank this man, but you have not yet learnt that he has forgotten more than you will ever learn, you must resign yourself to the fact that you can never gain his level of knowledge and experience and then you will be some use to me.

Later in the flight, he spoke to him again, I am going to show you how you need to know your men and your own limitaions. With that he pulled the co pilot out, and put the WO engineer in his seat and said it is all yours. With that the WO flew the aircraft to top of desent by hand, and then took it down to about circuit height where the boss took over.

As we were taxing in, they changed seats again, and the boss made one more statement. See our engineers spend so much time in the simulator, that I have seen three engineers perform a full session with all problems, without any problems at all.

So let us not kid our selves, officers perform an important leadership roll, but any air force is really run by the NCO's, they are the ones who make things happen.

Regards

Col

[Samuel]

Having served as an airman for ten years and an officer for 15, I think the answer to the question is a definite "no!" There would be absolutely no benefit to a potential junior officer.

I also feel I had an advantage in my transition [I was never an NCO], in that my ideas on what would make me a good officer [Sqn Ldr Rtd], was that I'd had no pre-conditioning as a SNCO, many of whom continue to think in that rank long after commissioning. I think I also had the benefit, as an airman, of working with some super officers, almost all aircrew types. Some of the other branch representatives never lit my fire, and I recall one Flt Lt OC my section whom I never met in two years!

I'm biased, of course, but I think I was a damn fine officer, and have the paperwork to prove it, because I already had the determination, attitude and integrity to "do it once, do it right". I don't think that always happens with some commissioned NCOs, because that's what some of them continue to be!

I was selected by the way, I never applied for a commission, and I had to convinced by a Gp Capt GD[P] that I was the right man!

[Old Fella]

Samuel, what were you doing for 10 years as an airman who never got promoted? The reality is there are fine Officers who were "never in the ranks", a term which I think is quaint. There are also many fine Officers who came from the ranks. Likewise, many non-Commissioned members are equally fine and contribute just as much as many Officers, more than some no doubt. Having been a serviceman for over 23 years and leaving as a Warrant Officer I think I can make a pretty good assessment of the relative merits of others. The military will not, indeed cannot, operate without the requisite number of all ranks and musterings. The "them and us" attitude held by too many does little for the good of the services. On another point, I did not know the RAF guys flew around in their aircraft "at the Queens expense". (Tankertrashnav) I always thought the taxpayers funded the armed services.

[Pontius Navigator]

Samuel made a good post. Now for tuppence.

There are many airmen who fail becaus eof 'airmen tendencies' (don't ask).

There are many whose wives cannot handle the transition to the officers' mess.

As Samuel said, some SNCO (and WO) cannot change their mindset from non-commission to commission.

In the context of the original question though we are not talking of airmen going for a commission - the present system, but of would be officers serving as airmen for a tour or so perhaps before getting a commission.

This might work for a 17 year old but not for a graduate. A graduate at 24 on entry and 28 on a sqn cannot afford an additional 2-3 years as an airmen because that would both delay his professional training and aptitude fade would be well established.

An officer at IOT spends some 8 months as an 'airman' but isolated at the college of knowledge. It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.

[Old Fella]

Pontius Navigator. Rarely have I seen such blatant "class distinction" written. Your condescending remarks are one of the very reasons a number of potential Officers elect to stay put "in the NCO ranks". Despite your (don't ask) I would like you to explain exactly what your comment infers. Likewise, please expand on your comment regarding wives not being able to handle the transition to the Officers' Mess. Surely, you must be joking. What the hell has an Officers wife got to do with the Officers Mess? It would seem to me that your comment infers that some Officers may be "embarrassed" by having their spouse accompany them to the Mess simply because she was previously a NCO's wife. Unbelievable waffle.

[chopper2004]

I have 2 best mates in the air force and they are superb officers., one went in direct entry IOT as a graduate while the other one joined as an airman. Near 10 yrs later the latter, went through OASC and graduated from IOT and did well through the course and doing well for himself in his branch.

Not sure if it makes any difference though bit of me agrees that an agreed period of time in the non commissioned ranks can't hurt.

Though there is the time issue of those going for pilot or weapons operator but then its been proved that there have been junior non commissioned ranks who spent several years before going through a commissioning course, then pilots course whether its been the RAF, AAC, FAA, USAF, USN, USMC, USA.

If I am correct, in the USA within the various academies and even the ROTC program, arn't the cadets hold nco ranks during the years leading up to their commission? I know they are cadet assigned ranks but don't they denote some form of increased responsibility as the years go by?

I suppose like with everywhere else, there's pro's and cons of this

[Point0Five]

In the RAAF, there are two types of ex-airmen officers: awesome and awful... very little ground in between. Being an officer takes all types, but commissioning from the ranks is not the solution to all of Defence's problems. Let's just focus on the key skill sets that enables somebody to lead and also, you don't have to get your hands dirty to appreciate what's involved.

[Squawk7143]

Pontius Navigator,

What can I say, at last some entertainment.... Please, don't stop, your foot is nearly all the way in.... what exactly are; "airmen tendencies" ?

Squawk

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius Navigator,

What can I say, at last some entertainment.... Please, don't stop, your foot is nearly all the way in.... what exactly are; "airmen tendencies" ?

Squawk

Squawk, I don't know but I do know that that phrase is used at OASC.

I have replied to Old Fella by PM.

I leave it to others to comment and explain.

[Squawk7143]

I don't know but I do know that that phrase is used at OASC


Can anyone elaborate? There might be a few airmen (or even airmen aircrew) out there who are just about ready to go to OASC who could do with some advice.

Such advice could help them make sure they don't soil the carpet at OASC!

Squawk

[Thelma Viaduct]

The ranks need workers, not wankers. :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was in Aden we had a lot of pongoes on base (Khormaksar). A chum on 43 showed a young army officer acquaintance over one of the squadron's Hunters. After a while the puzzled lad asked "Very nice, but where does the competent NCO sit?"

[larssnowpharter]

It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.

And not just Regt and PEd. As one recalls it is Appendix 22 to QRs which lists the duties of various NCO ranks. For WOs this includes something along the lines of 'Training junior officers'.

[NutLoose]

Tankertrashnav (http://www.pprune.org/members/294972-tankertrashnav)

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 62
Posts: 24


True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?


Possibly because unlike 17 yr old Officer Cadets, the rest of the Airforce at that age have been more savvy as to what is happening to their pensions and have in the past stood up to it and not taken it bent over a table from the rear, so to speak.

[Pontius Navigator]

And not just Regt and PEd.

lars, I was refering specifically to the instructor SNCOs at IOT.

[Melchett01]

Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?

Spot on. And this is something that applies right the way across the country in all walks of life, whether it be commerce, industry, government service etc. Unfortunately, many people - largely the current Islington elite, and what may in the past have been described as 'working classes' - do not see this, and there appears to have been a policy of mediocrity in bringing everyone down to the lowest levels and a refusal to accept that there is a need for high flyers.

That said, you will often see a number of these high flyers who are more like low flyers supported by occasional updraughts, and just because you have a number of letters after your name no way confers the ability to be a good officer. In these cases, I seriously doubt that time in the ranks would provide much in the way of benefit and would only detract from competent airmen trying to do their jobs. Incidentally, where would you put a future pilot, WSO etc? Ops, the tower, SWO's Gang?

In short, I can't really see what benefit spending time in the ranks would confer. People are selected to be officers because of their leadership potential; that they can come in post school, university or after another initial career suggests that they are expected to have the potential to lead already. That they have little common sense or service ability is another matter; that is why they go through 8 months of IOT and should then spend time listening to their seniors and WOs.

By the way, as for 'airmen tendancies', I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle Old Fella. As has been pointed out, it's just one of those hoops that have to be jumped through at IOT rather than being a class war issue. I don't think there is a specific definition of what constitutes 'airman tendancies', but a good yardstick might be whether you would introduce someone to your baby sister!

[davejb]

Dead or alive, the aircrew I referred to come straight in to a place previously preserved for those of a certain amount of earned status and respect.


Previously would be pre-1940 or so then, as aircrew have been promoted Sgt on completion of training since early in WW2. You refer to a situation prior to that, which presumably you never actually 'enjoyed' - unless you're about 90 years old? Any other old ideas you'd like to reinstate while you are at it? Flogging the oiks for 'murmuring' perhaps? 20 lashes for sitting on 'your' bar stool at the mess bar?

Aircrew hold the rank, they are as entitled as any other SNCO to mess membership, get a life.

By the way - calling siggies Nimrod coffee boys is pathetic, frankly, and shows how little you know about what they do.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Airpig,

You are a bigoted uninformed cnut and I will now happily prove why you are a bigoted uninformed cnut.

I joined the RAF in 1974 as a young aircraft mechanic did my time and was promoted to substantive Sgt in my ground trade in early 1987. In that time I did a mechs course and a fitters course, GST and TMT as a Cpl and GST and TMT as a Sgt.

In 1989, already 2 years as a Sgt I was selected for Airmen Aircrew, went off and did my basic training all over again and eventually graduated again as a Sgt in Dec of that year.

The basic Airmen Aircrew course was without doubt the toughest training regime I had ever faced. We had a variety of ex ground trades guys and girls with us and only the firemen and rocks could recall facing ever facing anything quite so demanding.

The young Sgt that so offends you has been seen and done stuff that fat knackers like yourself would wake up at night in a cold sweat having merely dreamt about.

"Dead or alive, the aircrew I referred to come straight in to a place previously preserved for those of a certain amount of earned status and respect."

Just to correct you, they come into a place and live alongside a small bunch of jealous small minded individuals who have either, tried and failed, were just too wheezy to hack it in the first place or simply lacked the "minerals" at an earlier age to achieve what these young men have, and as you have proved that really sticks in the craw.

The only saving grace for the RAF in general is that, should your profile be accurate, you are 52 which means we only have to put up with your small minded bigotry for 3 more years :=

[Pontius Navigator]

A far better idea would be to weed out more of them during IOT when their true colours are starting to show despite what the AFCO may have thought of them.

AFCO is only the first filter, OASC is the second.

On paper this seems a better idea however there are draw backs.

The training systems have a requirement for a number of bums on seats. If the IOT chop rate was, say, 25% rather than near 99%, then it follows that you would need a whole additional course per year with all that that entails in capitation and infrastructure costs.

Once out of IOT the real work begins. For aircrew the courses begin with ground school followed by a gentle introduction to flying. Then it used to ramp up quite quickly with apptitudes and capacity being stretched. Like a horse race this is where the first casualties would occur with pilots being back streamed to Nav and Nav to Provost (for instance). ATC and ABM have similar capacity issues.

Even the scribbly trades are not simple attendance courses and on any there is a possibility of being chopped because you did slip through IOT although someone with very good aptitude and poor OQ may well continue.

Oh, and Airmen Tendencies? I think that is becoming apparent in this thread.

[taxydual]

For examples of 'Airmen Tendencies' wander across to EGoat. (A brilliant idea of a Website, unfortunately now hijacked by a Hard Core of dubious posters).

The 'Airmen Tendencies' of more and more of the posters seem to revolve around 'Gay Bashing' and 'Anal Intercourse'.

As opposed to PPRune where 'Spey Bashing' and 'Annual Intercourse' pops up regularly. The age difference of the posters to the two sites may have a bearing of course.

:)

[BEagle]

Well, just to lighten things a bit, we had one ex-apprentoid on 14GE at RAFC who was told that he had "Un-officerlike bone structure"...:rolleyes:

I kid you not!

Spend time in the ranks? No. Certainly not for GD Aircrew as the cost would be simply prohibitive and the time would be a total waste. For baby plumbers, the revised EngO's course exposes them to the demands of leadership rather earlier than it once did.

The 'Plastic sergeant' grumbles from certain city father SNCOs will doubtless continue as they always have..... Mind you, the behaviour of some 'Mighty Muncher' crews down route has often added strength to the city fathers' case, I regret to say.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Airpig

Your post smacks of jealousy and bitterness. The SNCOs you refer to were bright, intelligent and motivated enough to join as aircrew from the off. Those that missed that boat were driven and motivated enough to go to the Chief Clerk and get a Gen App and apply for aircrew duties.

So it would seem you were neither bright, intelligent nor motivated enough to apply to be aircrew. That, or you couldn't find the Chief Clerk's office or hold a pen to fill the gen app. So who's fault is that?

Or did you apply and fail?

Shame on you either way.

SFFP

Good post and well put.

[teeteringhead]

Hmmmmmm compulsory service as a "blighter" eh - so then our senior officers would be as good as those of the civvy plods, all of whom do 2 years on the beat .....:rolleyes: don't think so!


I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service ... not quite correct grimweasel.

You may have been "robbed" of 3 years not 5, as airmen's (or soldiers' or ratings') reckonable service for pension purposes dates from 18 - which by a strange coincidence is exactly the number of years of which I was "robbed", by virtue of being commissioned at 18. Had my 21st on my first squadron, not unusual in them days for the "gutter entry"...;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Oh, and Airmen Tendencies? I think that is becoming apparent in this thread."

The only saving grace for the modern Royal Air Force is that this sort of class attitude is almost a thing of the past :rolleyes:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Should all teachers be parents before they are let loose in a school?
Should all nurses and doctors suffer major illnesses/accidents before they work in a hospital?
Should prison officers do some porridge before they work in a prison?
Should all bankers work in a call centre before they go to the "City"?
Should all MP's "work" before they are appointed?
Should job centre employees be unemployed before they become CS?

I'm sure there are many more that imaginative Pruners could come up with but the simple answer IMHO is no.

However I reckon everyone should spend time in a care home before they get old, 'cos, as a Knackered old fart, I can truthfully report that it's no fun getting old and nothing will prepare you better than a dose of reality!:hmm:

[ZH875]

YES.

All officers should spend 1 month in the ranks.

This time to be spent on Guard duty.

Maybe, this will prevent some of them (you know the one's) from being a proverbial pain in the :mad: when stopped for a routine search by a young airman who is just doing his job, and doesn't need the hassle.:ok:

[taxydual]

Obvious answer is no. Many PPruners have given their thoughts on the matter.

However, some aspects of Officer/Airmen linking does serve a purpose, and produces some suprising results.

Back in the '80's, at an F3 base in North Yorkshire, we had a steady stream of ex IOT Plt Offs/Fg Offs that were 'holding' awaiting BFTS. A few 'held' on the Air Ops side of the WOC. To make their lives a bit more interesting, we used them as Air Ops Assistants and taught them the basics. Nothing too deep (a little knowledge being a dangerous thing). How to read/write and action a signal, liaison with outside agencies, AD Radar Units, other Ops Rooms, RAF telephone speak etc etc. Almost all appreciated what we did to assist them.

A few years later, I bumped into one particular guy (who had passed through the system) and had become CR on an FJ squadron as a Flt Lt. I will admit I had difficulty remembering who he was, although he recognised me instantly.

In conversation in the bar, he recalled his 'U/T Ops Assistant days' and commented how much it had helped him through his RAF career. One comment he made that stuck with me was "that it made him feel part of the RAF team". He also commented how respectful he was, at the depth of knowledge, and expertise, of the Airmen that he had come into contact with."Something that IOT hadn't prepared him for" (his words. my bold).

That guy is now a 1*. (Edited:Wrong rank, he's a Group Captain)

Professional Airmen and Professional Officers (and repect on both sides) makes a Professional Team. A combination you cannot beat.

[Squawk7143]

Taxydual

Professional Airmen and Professional Officers (and repect on both sides) makes a Professional Team. A combination you cannot beat.What a refreshing attitude, well said, :D I think the RAF is actually getting closer to that attitude today the it ever was. That's just my perception from recent limited exposure. There will always be exceptions of course:ugh:

Leadership is a skill just like diagnosing a problem to integrated circuit component level on a modern jet is a skill. Not a better skill just another skill.

[minigundiplomat]

Airpig,

when you enter this forum, please read the small print under the title. At no point does it state

'A forum for embittered and retired types who moan about, and judge those presently serving with a rose tinted glow of nostalgia for a service long faded'.

Many of those plastic sergeants are flying around Iraq and Helmand as you read this, providing a lifeline to those on the ground.

Now bugger off back to the British Legion and bore the locals with stories of how great the service was when you were there.

Your not wanted here. If I had to guess, I'd guess your not really wanted anywhere.

Pr1ck!

[Pontius Navigator]

"Oh, and Airmen Tendencies? I think that is becoming apparent in this thread."

The only saving grace for the modern Royal Air Force is that this sort of class attitude is almost a thing of the past :rolleyes:

SFFP, you may like to think so but I know for a fact that the issue of AT was alive and well in OASC fairly recently.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Fortuitously most of the young folk I encounter, fresh from the college of blockage or even those a little longer in the tooth have seen through the propaganda that you and your ilk, high in your Ivory towers propogate.

Maybe what I should have posted was "outside of training establishments, often staffed by rubber desk johnnies and old folk living in the past, the real Royal Air Force has grown up and now consigned the class thing to the history books.

That is certainly my experiance of the current front line crop:ok:

[The Real Slim Shady]

I had the great fortune to have a marvellous Flt Sgt when I found myself as a GD officer in charge of a bunch of engineers as their boss: would have been lost without him.

Then I had the combined wisdom and wit of the Air Engs and AEOps at Finningley on the Dom Sqn to keep my feet on the ground: Brian D******y, more of an officer than many, many officers, Paul B*****n, another great guy, one could go on, however, we were all one big,happy-ish bunch, first name terms and mutual respect.

Works every time.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fortuitously most of the young folk I encounter, fresh from the college of blockage or even those a little longer in the tooth have seen through the propaganda that you and your ilk, high in your Ivory towers propogate.

SFFP, I am not sure you get it. I am not propagating anything but reporting fact. Fact is, some airmen will not get past the AFCO; more will not get through OASC; those that get to IOT get recoursed. It's a fact.

Maybe what I should have posted was "outside of training establishments, often staffed by rubber desk johnnies and old folk living in the past, the real Royal Air Force has grown up and now consigned the class thing to the history books.

True because of the filtering and attitude adjustments before they are let out in the wild.[/QUOTE]

Some obvious airmen or NCA posting here on pprune do NOT demonstrate AT and would probably have little trouble if they went for a commission. I won't name names for fear of embarassing them.

[taxydual]

'God created man in his own image'.

Could it be that OASC/IOT instructors (and those above them) have the same policy?

Can 'characters' still pass the 'College of Knowledge?' Or has it become just a production line?

Oh, this is not wishing to stir things, It's a genuine query. I retired a few years ago but had a foot in both 'camps' as it were. Swinderby and Henlow.

I got the feeling then, but ignored it, that we ex-Henlow guys were 'second class' citizens. At least, we had some characters. :ok:

[davejb]

I think ZH875 has a good idea there,
doing station guard for a short period would probably go a long way to encouraging the empathy or understanding that some JO's lack...without actually taking too much time up from what is otherwise a busy schedule getting the JO into productive service.

'Airman tendencies' is a very unfortunate choice of terminology that reveals an underlying class bias that has no place in any professional organisation, or any organisation that hopes to appear professional anyway . That doesn't mean that everyone who uses the phrase is actually biased in this manner, but it's most assuredly a danger signal... put it another way, back in 1970 you could get away with calling somebody a 'nigger' ('Love Thy Neighbour' even made, God help us all, a comedy series out of this). Today nobody would dream of using that word, unless they were a genuine dikchead looking for broken teeth... one day 'AT' will be seen for the demeaning, worthless label that it is.

Has it ever crossed the minds of the AT label bestowing blockheads that somebody with these tendencies (whatever they might be) could perhaps adapt over time, becoming much more the sort of chap one wants in the mess etc etc. whilst retaining their inate intelligence (and, if we are talking ex SNCO, low cunning) but a fukcwit with good manners will always be a fukcwit? I'd rather train up a bright huy with rough edges than a numpty who was never baffled by the sight of three different forks - perhaps OASC/IOT ought to be looked at for 'elitist tendencies'?

[Blighter Pilot]

Perhaps we should look at the IOT Flt and Sqn Cdrs?

I know they are all now volunteers and are selected before appointment but I can't help feeling that a certain type of character wants to be a an IOT Flt Cdr!

At least in the days of bad-boy tours you might be fortunate to come across an honest thinking and speaking officer who wasn't there for his or her own career progression:mad:

Personally, IOT taught me nothing but sword drill and if I had my way SNCO's would be the syndicate mentors with the officers only holding training officer and sqn commander roles, with specialist teaching appointments filled by the most qualified personnel.

Although IOT is getting better it is still not perfect - as witnessed by some of the young f:mad:kwits arriving in the mess at the secret Wiltshire airbase!

Thank god that the RAF has moved on from the bad old days of 'us and them'. Todays RAF is about operationally focused teamwork, from the newest LAC on the EngDet to the 1* FOB Cdr.

Officers do not need to spend time in the ranks - they need to be educated in the ways of operating as team and to get the most out of the personnel under their command. Listen to your JNCOs and SNCO and remember that respect has to be earnt and loyalty flows both ways.

As an aside, I do believe that 875's idea about doing a month as Stn Guard Force would open a lot of newly-commissioned officer eyes to the reality of being an airman!

[Samuel]

Why 10 years as an airmen? They were divided equally between two air forces!

I never got into the bracket the first five, and after the second I was commissioned!

[Pontius Navigator]

As an aside, I do believe that 875's idea about doing a month as Stn Guard Force would open a lot of newly-commissioned officer eyes to the reality of being an airman!

Curious, is this not done now? We used to do it during my training and a right PITA it were too. We worked in pairs and had regular route cards to follow that were issued at random. I seem to recall we did a 2-hour shift, can't remember if we did more than one per night, but we still had the bull parades first thing next morning.

Remember being bollcked by cpl plods.

Had the same sh1t's and good guys as instructors.

[Samuel]

Hmmm....I seem to have given 'Oldfella' a bum steer. Ten years an airman in one Royal Air Force would be a long time without promotion, but I served as an airman in two! Going from airman to P/o is, believe me, very much a vertical learning curve! As an airman tradesman, you very much tend to do what you were trained to do, not so as a very junior officer, where everyone is looking for a dogsbody, and you learn as you go , and if you don't crash and burn it's something of a tribute to what you may have learned as an airman, coupled with a determination you might not have known you had. By the time you get to Flt Lt, you've learned a lot, and especially you've learned to listen very carefully to your NCOs but to not, necessarily, take all the advice given. In the end, you have to manage them, the job, and everything else, and that, IMHO, is why I felt never being an NCO was beneficial. That is not to say there are some very fine officers who had been NCOs, just some that don't change their ways too much.

Mind you, I had a few junior officers who need some serious directional advice! Particularly Direct Entry types waving brand new MBAs but with absolutely no air force ethos whatsoever.

[D O Guerrero]

Well, from a slightly different perspective.. Part of my RN Officer training was to spend about 6 weeks at sea effectively as a Junior Rate. We were still Officer Cadets, but no privilege or status came from that and we wore no rank badges. We lived in the same messes, ate the same food and did the same work as the rest of the Junior Rates on board. In fact we did the jobs that they didn't want to do. Included in this was an attachment to a different department each week with an associated acquaint. Each Chief or PO that took charge of us was able to speak to us frankly and without having to call anyone Sir. I learnt a huge amount from them. Every Officer from every branch (including aircrew) did this training. I believe this is still the case.
I didn't enjoy it if I'm honest, but it stuck with me for the rest of my naval career. It made me realise just what I was asking for when I later asked for some of the more soul-destroying tasks to be completed. I realised what it meant to expect a 5 man team to enter a burning compartment. I understood the importance of morale boosters such as good food and breaks from the routine because I had been there and done it. It was invaluable experience and makes for a better officer - without doubt.

[engineer(retard)]

D O G

Top post

To add my twopennorth. I commisioned at 30 years old from having reached sgt by age 26 without having been aircrew or appo. Spending time in the ranks for graduate officers is definitely not the way ahead, I have seen a couple of BEngOs shoes catch fire in the crewroom.

I suggest that education of the freshly minted officer is a better approach. Early attitudes are dominated by experiences at IOT and I would suggest more exposure to the ranks might help instead of being indoctrinated by the experiences of individual flt cdrs who may have done very little in the real world before being sent to instruct. The DS I had (a top bloke) had to give a lesson on the sgts mess having never set foot in one, he handed over the lesson to me with no notice. Bring in guest lecturers for the lessons who do the subject as their day job, many IOT instructors are just reading from a set of course notes not teaching from experience. Having seen at first hand the depth of knowledge and ability that many in the ranks possess it may stand them in good stead. Let IOT students understand that the divide is not class or education based, many rankers do what they do by choice not a lack of education or ability. I have had several airman working for me who have 1st or higher degrees.

The airman tendencies arguments made me smile, the phrase existed in my day. One (graduate) officer was bollocked for having a SNCOs beret and mine was used as an example. I always looked like a drawing pin in a beret, perhaps my head was the wrong shape. Undoubtedly, there are ex-airman who cannot make the transition to officer; not through any lack of ability it seems to be more of a mental blockage. This applies equally to the wives, the transition can be difficult. Additionally, there are university qualified IOT graduates who should not be allowed out on their own, its a normal demographic spread.

regards

retard

[Pontius Navigator]

I also remember my first orderly officer. I was still training as a baby nav and in those days OO was a 24hr duty - workday as well as night. One order was to attend fires and take charge.

During lessons there was a fire alarm at a remote MQ. The instructor gave me the nod and I went outside and hitched a ride on a passing fire truck - there was no other way I could have made the 2-3 mile trip.

I duly arrived at the fire as the OIC as a very wet, 18-yr old APO. Give any orders? Offer any advice? Do anything constructive? No, not a blessed thing, but I learnt to let the experts get on with it and learn from them.

[Heliringer]

So please tell me what are these Airman tendencies?

[Herc-u-lease]

Airman tendencies - as it was explained to me by my Flt Cdr about 8 years ago; is any behaviour unbecoming of a junior officer. I was being pulled apart at the time for saying "cock-up" during a lead on IOT. I was written-up for using "language found in the crew room." The phrase airman tendencies is misleading IMO; you can have graduate displaying un-officer like qualities, yet because of his background he would not be written up as showing airman tendencies. The officer corps is a profession that demands certain standards of behaviour, not a particular class segment.

[Old Fella]

Samuel, thank you for explaining the ten years without promotion. I have replied to the PM sent to me by Pontius Navigator and he is well informed as to my thoughts regarding some of his comments. I understand some of the references to "Plastic Sgt's" in airman aircrew roles, however I can assure those who care that many of those "Plastic Sgt's" may not have had time in other areas of the service before graduating for their particular role, but they most certainly would have earned their rank by completion of their basic and specialist training. As for myself, I was a ground engineer who had nearly 12 years in the trade and had been a substantive Sgt for two of those years before I trained as a F/E. Those of my era had similar experience. Despite that fact, there were some in the Sgts' Mess who looked upon me and my peers as "five minute wonders" when we entered the Mess with brevets in place. Thankfully, as others have stated on this forum, most clear thinking people accept that the forces are made up of people of all ranks who all deserve the respect and support of their fellow servicemen and servicewomen. Class has no place in a modern force, respect is what is required. Finally, for airpolice, how many of those NCO pilots who were granted SNCO rank at graduation from pilot training, the same men who fought to save Britian and many of whom paid with their lives, would you have denied entry to the Sgts' Mess?

[NUFC1892]

Quote:
It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.

And not just Regt and PEd. As one recalls it is Appendix 22 to QRs which lists the duties of various NCO ranks. For WOs this includes something along the lines of 'Training junior officers'.


A couple of points if I may:

1. It is Appx 27 to QRs. The lack of backbone in many WOs, coupled with their dismissal of anyones opinion but their own is, for me, a large part of the problem. There is not enough understanding that anyones 1st tour is going to be a steep learing curve and everyone has to learn somewhere. Yes, there will be some bloody-minded individuals who believe that because they have passed IOT and professional trg they know it all, it is down to the WO to educate them otherwise - if necessary. It is not always necessary, particularly for those commisioned later in life (25+) who have the experience and wisdom, coupled with the intelligence and energy to make good leaders in a very short space of time. Those that need greater guidance should be given it, sometimes forcefully, sometimes less so. The greatest disservice is for someone to be dismissed as being an idiot without those with responsibility trying their utmost to develop them.

2. Second point is mess membership. The more the merrier, if I want to sit in my wing backed chair dribbling from various outlets and talking about the good old days I will go on a Saga Holiday. It is the energy and enthusiasm of the younger SNCOs who still have ambition that keeps the Sgts' Messes going.

3. Finally, now that FS's are the Deputy Flt Cdr's at IOT has there been any difference in the quality of Officers coming through the system?

[Old Fella]

Quote:
The lack of backbone in many WOs , coupled with their dismissal of anyone's opinion but their own.


NUFC1892, it surprises me that you have found many WO's lacking in backbone. I can accept that some may, but many? If your claim is correct it says something about those upon whose recommendation these people were promoted. As for some being dismissive of the opinion of others if it was not in accord with their own, that is not restricted to the SNCO ranks.

[Blacksheep]

In debating this question it may perhaps, be worthwhile to consider why the armed forces need a division between commissioned and non-commissioned or enlisted personnel, and what the required characteristics of each division may be.

Civilian organizations don't need the division, one joins at the bottom and works up (and occasionally down) without clear dividing lines between what characteristics divide managers from staff. Civilian organizations do not have NCOs. Yet the military certainly do need the division. Why? You've been through IOT and the College so you have the tools at hand to work it out for yourselves.

[Wader2]

Civilian organizations do not have NCOs. Yet the military certainly do need the division.

I think you are wrong.

Take any manufacturing company with even a handful of workers:

You have the boss/manager or whatever and you have the workers. As the boss many be engaged other tasks there will generally be a chargehand or foreman whose job is to see that work is shared between the workforce. That man is, in effect, the NCO.

There are other groupings, such as a sales team, where the hierarchy may be the manager - (officer) - who sets tasks and targets and the sales team who go do the work. There may be a senior salesman who might cover for the manager when he is on holiday. In this case there is no obvious NCO position.

Was Captain Peacock (Are you being served) the manager (officer) for the floor and Mrs Slocum the leader (SNCO) of the Lingerie section?

[BEagle]

Was Captain Peacock (Are you being served) the manager (officer) for the floor and Mrs Slocum the leader (SNCO) of the Lingerie section?

I don't know. But Young Mr. Grace (Stn Cdr) certainly had some perks attached to his job....:E

And in any case, so-called 'Class' does still exist; it's just that it's rarely flaunted. It isn't difficult to spot someone who 'simply isn't one of us' whilst recruiting. One doesn't need to ask questions about polo or Daddy's estate (as those of the self-appointed 'lower orders' might opine would be typical subjects) - if the applicant is a thoroughly common 'know wot I mean, mate, innit' oik with neither manners nor respect, 'tis hardly likely that he will be selected for officer training.

[Wensleydale]

Officers make decisions....

SNCOs ensure that the decisions are carried out.....

The ORs carry them out.

As an "Aircrew Officer", I have spent over 30 years "with the colours" but only been in direct command of personnel for less than 5 years of that time. Therefore we have 2 types of officer - the Aircrew Officer and those who actually lead other people. In my experience, the better officers have been those who have risen from the ranks - especially engineers. However, it is a wate of resource to insist that aircrew have to come from the ranks as we learn our leadership "on the job".

So where do we draw the line? I suggest that the status quo is about right, although the very senior officers all come from the self taught aircrew stream - I think that perhaps this is one sided? Even more so, the multi engine aircrew officer learns to lead by supervision of others on his crew although he may not have line manager authority. It seems perverse that those at the top (the FJ stream) are those with probably the least leadership training, practise and training of all of us. They may be sharp, but havn't got a clue of how to motivate people. Perhaps it shows?

[Wader2]

aircrew . . . learn our leadership "on the job".

Agree, although I had several ground tours where I had to deal with airmen. Even at late as 1995 at Waddo I never had to exercise leadership to any great extent. The airmen created no problems nor did the system trouble them.

Only in my last tour did I start having to get muscular - not with the airmen I hasten to add but on their behalf. as OOA stepped up, as manning ramped down, so over-stretch started to bite.

I had an airwoman covering two jobs, for which she got substitution pay and ultimately promotion, but neither her sqn cdr nor her wg cdr would get additional help - she was working a regular 5 day week and often part of 2 days at weekends. I sent her on leave and forced the issue.

The lesson I suppose is one of empathy; you need to know what they have to do and the conditions under which they do it. You then need to take action when resources fail to match the task.

those at the top (the FJ stream) are those with probably the least leadership training, practise and training of all of us This is possibly the most pertinent post yet. Unfortunately people persons don't seem to reach the top.

[Blacksheep]

You have the boss/manager or whatever and you have the workers. As the boss many be engaged other tasks there will generally be a chargehand or foreman whose job is to see that work is shared between the workforce. That man is, in effect, the NCO.
Not a good comparison. The shop floor worker becomes a foreman and advances smoothly to Assistant Manager and Manager, eventually perhaps Departmental Director with a staff of several hundred employees. This is not pre-ordained at recruitment and induction. In a civil airline hangar for example, a foreman will make operational decisions for a workforce of around fifty mechanics, technicians, leading hands (JNCOs) and supervisors (NCOs); as a clue, it is generally upon appointment as a Manager that one might take control of a cost centre's budget.Officers make decisions....

SNCOs ensure that the decisions are carried out.....

The ORs carry them out.
Too trite.

Come on keep trying. Why does the military find it necessary to segregate the officer corps from the other ranks?

[minigundiplomat]

Therefore we have 2 types of officer - the Aircrew Officer and those who actually lead other people


I'd politely disagree with that statement.

Take the Boss of the resident Chinook Flight in Sandpit East. His crews have been shot at everytime they go into a particular area, and yet he stands in front of dozens of aircrew and tells them they are all going in again as a formation, why it's important and how they are going to do it.

He then trots down to see the engineers (as he would, they work for him via the JEngO) and tells them exactly why they need to dig out blind to produce 4 cabs from the current episode of scrapheap challenge. He explains why it important, and how their efforts directly help the squaddie on the ground, who badly needs the aircraft.

I've seen this scene dozens of times, so please don't tell me aircrew officers can't lead others.

What you type on here is a poor substitute for what I have seen with my own eyes.

[Pontius Navigator]

don't tell me aircrew officers can't lead others.

Ah, so you are proud after all. I couldn't believe it when you saiid you weren't.

Respect.

[minigundiplomat]

Proud, not really. Argumentative.............

[Tourist]

Ok Blacksheep, I'll resist the temptation raging inside me to wind up the class war plebs and tell you.
1. Career compression. It is very difficult even under the current system to get an officer through enough different jobs to prepare him for the the vagaries of senior officerership, before he is too old to command.My personal opinion is that we are too slow as it is. The human ability to think fast and make confident decisions without the occifying fear of failure clouding decisions is on the decline past our early twenties. This is to some degree offset by wisdom gained over the years, but it is no accident that in wartime the average age of senior commanders plummets. Nelson Captain of a ship at 21, Leonard Cheshire Gp Capt at 23 for example. We need people young/arrogant enough to have confidence in their decisions. To delay further the climb to command is a very bad idea.

2. Having suffered Initial Sea Training (IST) myself I feel we gained nothing from it whasoever. Practice bleeding combined with just a little bit of vicious treatment from a few chippy and bitter ratings who get to treat officers badly for once. I could already guess just what a crappy job pot wash in a high sea state was. I knew that the engine compartment would be hot and sweaty, and surprise surprise, it was. I knew that manning the gangplank in Brindisi would be boring, and it was. That quite simply is why I never joined to do those jobs. Don't bemoan your lot, change it.

3. On a slightly different note, there is a lot of talk here about ex ratings/rankers making better officers. I disagree. I think they are maybe more considerate/accesible to their subordinates and more popular as a result (though I can think of a few exceptions to the rule), but it is not a popularity contest. There have been "people persons" who have made "great" leaders, but there is more than one route to effective leadeship. Even Nelson sent his whole fleet to sea for three years while he took leave to shag his mistress. Hardly the act of a "people person". He was loved because he won. The winning is important, not the personality. So I don't believe that they make better or worse officers, just that they are generally accessible to their subordinates.

[Wensleydale]

MGD,

I didn't say that there were any good aircrew officers - I am sure that there are. In my experience (on a multi-engine aircraft) the chaps who are multi-aircraft captains tend to make good leaders - those who came straight in from the fast jet world do not have a scooby about man management within a multi-crew environment. The latter tend to be very gung ho and punchy which often does not work - nor do thay have a disposition to listen to their specialists who often have much more experience in role. Questions and suggestions are often not welcomed because the FJs want to change everyone to their methods and they know best...... regardless of limitations with kit.

I am very happy about your rotary leader - I am afraid that they are very thin on the ground elsewhere.

[minigundiplomat]

I am very happy about your rotary leader


As am I. One of an ever decreasing peer group, and I'll miss working for him when we part company.

MGD

[Pontius Navigator]

because the FJs want to change everyone to their methods and they know best...... regardless of limitations with kit.

I believe this was one reason why ACM Sir Harry Broadhurst was brought in as CinC Bomber Command to get the new V-Force into new ways of jet thinking rather than the old, slow, methodical bomber approach.

[Blacksheep]

Well done Tourist. Time is of the essence.

Then there is the slight subject of leadership versus management, they're not the same thing - especially leadership under fire. A bit of distance allows a certain aura of respect that is needed when leading men into action. The naval situation of the captain is probably the best example; a naval ship's captain is completely alone, even in a ship crammed with crew and fellow officers: if you examine the example of leaders like Lt Cdr Roope VC for instance, its easy to see why that's for the best.

I can think of many senior managers that I was perfectly happy to work under, but if any of them had asked me to do anything even slightly dangerous, I'd have quickly told them where to stick it. (This is also perhaps why retired officers never seem to make good managers.)

The problem with having junior officers serve in the ranks is that they may develop sympathy with their subordinates; not so much of a problem when managing but the military aren't training managers, they're training future leaders. For leaders, isolation works best.

[Samuel]

Sorry Tourist but I disagree! I was considerate/accessible both ways, up and down, but never allowed that to get in the way of what I was there to do. It's a total myth that anyone commissioned from the ranks can't lose sight of where he came from and fears losing popularity. I never, ever considered popularity as a reason for doing whatever had to be done.

[teeteringhead]

I believe this was one reason why ACM Sir Harry Broadhurst was brought in as CinC Bomber Command to get the new V-Force into new ways of jet thinking ... does that include thinking all the crew had bang seats??

Sorry - cheap shot. But what the heck......

[harrier123]

Having spent 8 years in the ranks and then I managed to get on to IOT I don't think it would work. However I was very shocked on IOT with some of the younger members of IOT views on the ranks. For example, in week 27 a young man said to me "wow that sgt is clever I never thought they would be" another example is "do people in the ranks have degrees?"

[engineer(retard)]

I think that the point about other ranks being better officers is bit of a misconception.

The majority of ORs see Junior Officers performing close up only at front line stations. A first tourist ex-ranker will usually settle in a lot quicker than a comparable graduate, he does not need to find out how a real unit and sqn works he has been round that loop for a number of years. You will begin to see parity in experience by about the 3rd to 4th tour by which time they should be hitting sqn ldr. At this point they are more remote from the ORs and less likely to get judged by their performance on a daily basis.

regards

retard

[DC10RealMan]

I was once an RAF SAC and was accused of un Airman like behaviour by coming to work in a rather fancy two-seater Italian sports car and I was encouraged to desist and get a more Airman-like car such as a Ford or Mini. I decided that I would ignore that order/request and on a number of occasions subsequently flew myself into work in a light aeroplane as I held a Private Pilots Licence. Needless to say, I left soon afterwars and had quite a successful career in Civil Aviation at Heathrow.

[Fareastdriver]

I was once an RAF SAC and was accused of un Airman like behaviour by coming to work in a rather fancy two-seater Italian sports car

What was unusual about that? In the sixties the Sergeants' Mess had a row of Jaguars and MGs whilst the Officers' Mess had beaten up old Fords and Vauxhalls.
I would have earned far more as a sergeant pilot and on oversea detachments my LOA was less than a SAC's.

[Easy Street]

What was unusual about that? In the sixties the Sergeants' Mess had a row of Jaguars and MGs whilst the Officers' Mess had beaten up old Fords and Vauxhalls.

Situation today is that car parks around barrack blocks are generally full of BMWs, Audis and assorted hot hatches undoubtedly purchased on personal contract plans consuming every last drop of disposable income, while the Officers' and Sergeants' Mess car parks are generally full of second-hand family wagons, with most ploughing their income into mortgages instead of cars. But the real question is, why and how did DC10RealMan manage to pull this thread out from the dim and distant past of 2009?

[DC10RealMan]

I was obviously very bored with lockdown as I originally started to look on Pprune for information about the Vulcan accident at LHR in the 1950s.

[Willard Whyte]

Good comeback '10!

[langleybaston]

I'd politely disagree with that statement.

Take the Boss of the resident Chinook Flight in Sandpit East. His crews have been shot at everytime they go into a particular area, and yet he stands in front of dozens of aircrew and tells them they are all going in again as a formation, why it's important and how they are going to do it.

He then trots down to see the engineers (as he would, they work for him via the JEngO) and tells them exactly why they need to dig out blind to produce 4 cabs from the current episode of scrapheap challenge. He explains why it important, and how their efforts directly help the squaddie on the ground, who badly needs the aircraft.

I've seen this scene dozens of times, so please don't tell me aircrew officers can't lead others.

What you type on here is a poor substitute for what I have seen with my own eyes.

OK. He talks the talk. Does he walk the walk?

[dctyke]

Having done both, I don't think pre-requisite airman service is really a good idea. I got enough hassle for being a mech-tech let alone being a future guaranteed officer. I learned a lot from the ranks and it has certainly helped me in the commissioned world. There are a few major companies that insist their graduate programs spend time on the shop floor; Aldi's management training scheme for one (I'm sure someone will correct me). Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?

I mentored one who on his second week in the Air Force proper told me he was going to swop offices with me as mine was bigger and faced the flight line!

[Toadstool]

MIOT now prepares Junior Officers for their first tour in a way that the previous course didn’t. For that reason, and because a good FS and/or WO should mentor, I would say no.

[Fareastdriver]

OK. He talks the talk. Does he walk the walk?

No names, no pack drill but that one DID.

[Two's in]

Nobody mentioning the 12 year thread gap? That must be some kind of record.

It's a lot about being able to see the big picture versus getting lost in the detail. Some jobs demand detail, others not so much. The trick is to spot the leadership potential in 21 year old spotty Herberts, very few of them have much actual leadership quality at that stage.

[Blossy]

One old Army trick that may have fallen out of use was to give a troublemaker a tape. If he proved useless it was swiftly removed but in some cases it revealed leadership potential. From personal experience I know of one of the last National servicemen (a particular Bolshie) who even became a regular and went on for a full career ending as a WO.

[minigundiplomat]

One old Army trick that may have fallen out of use was to give a troublemaker a tape. If he proved useless it was swiftly removed but in some cases it revealed leadership potential. From personal experience I know of one of the last National servicemen (a particular Bolshie) who even became a regular and went on for a full career ending as a WO.

Germans used to do the same. I remember reading about this one bolshie guy they made Corporal and he ended up in charge of the Army.....

[langleybaston]

In modern times, lance-corporal is a substantive rank and cannot be removed summarily. Previously [about before 1960] the army had unpaid lcpls and paid lcpls, as appointments, but both could be returned to their substantive rank, private, by stroke of CO's pen.
Not any more, though.

[Old-Duffer]

I have not read this entire thread and hence might repeat some words of wisdom already offered.

I did a 12 week OCTU in late 63/early 64 amongst direct entrants and ground and aircrew NCOs, who were going for a commission. I asked a Sergeant AEO what I should do when taking up my first job: ‘keep your mouth shut and your eyes open’ was his advice and I did my best to follow that. QRs imposed a specific task on warrant officers to guide junior officers and it was accepted generally that pilot officers were still learning and to a certain extent on probation.

On day to day matters, I usually sought advice from an ancient flight sergeant with anything new and I never tried to chuck my weight around except on one occasion when I was taken aside by a senior flight lieutenant who offered a few words of wisdom and it never happened again. I was always prepared to admit I didn’t know something and tried not blunder into the pooh too often. Years later, as a wing commander, I had a bumptious young officer who was trying to lord it over a warrant officer. I said to the officer, something like; “I don’t always do what Mr ‘X’ says I should do but I always listen to his view and if I go in a different direction, I always tell him why”.

In summary, I don’t think officers need to serve a period in the ranks but they do need guidance in their early years and I sometimes wonder if that fact isn’t lost amongst all the fancy management speak and box ticking.

One thing always stands out: ‘treat others as you expect to be treated’.

My wife, a retired sqn ldr, said that when anything difficult needed a decision, she applied the test: 'what will the subsequent Board of Enquiry find'?

Old Duffer

[Wensleydale]

When was the last time that you actually saw a Pilot Officer? It seems that most JOs spend a minimum of time as a Flying Officer before a very swift promotion to Flight Lieutenant where many of them finish their careers. Not withstanding the financial implications of the rank structure, perhaps it is time for newly qualified officers to start at the bottom again and work their way through the officers' ranks over a period of time. This would at least allow others to see the experience level of the JO and perhaps allow them take a more positive approach to their education.

[JulieAndrews]

I like what you're saying Wensleydale. I recall my Boss explaining to me that he was having to take some of my Secondary Duties off me so he could give them to a Flt Lt (whom had arrived through university route) so would have something to report on! 'Time in the Ranks' would no doubt help or deter some wannabe officers but those with any sense and empathy cope, and those without either get taken behind the bike shed or ignored.

[Haraka]

I am pretty sure now that it is only a matter of time before a common entry philosophy is being put forward by one of those elements of the RAF "wokery" seeking advancement of their political career recognition within the Service ( and beyond)..

[J.A.F.O.]

Cranwell was originally a Royal Naval air station before the formation of the RAF in 1918. Atop the red-brick and Portland stone neo-Georgian Baroque College Hall sits a small lighthouse, which may commemorate these nautical links. It should be noted, though, that the coast is twenty miles away, well over the horizon, even from the top of College Hall. So there is always the possibility that the lighthouse is there to remind officers how they should behave during their careers – it being both brilliant and of no practical use.

[Haraka]

"W*nking Willie" allegedly belonged to Trinity House .......

[jayteeto]

Last time I saw a Pilot Officer was....... today.
Recently finished IOT and about to start Ops training in august.

[ExAscoteer2]

So there is always the possibility that the lighthouse is there to remind officers how they should behave during their careers – it being both brilliant and of no practical use.

Nope. It just acted as a beacon to guide us home from nights out!

[MPN11]

I did 18 weeks as an AC, as did many others here. The Passing-Out Parade put an end to that experience. However, I could still bumper a Barrack Block floor if necessary.

My real induction to the RAF was in the capable hands of WW2-era Officers and MACR/WOs who pointed me in the right direction. Thanks, gentlemen.

[Fareastdriver]

In previous life before South Cerney i had done my time doing National Service in Rhodesia. Six months infantry training and two years on the reserve with two days a month continuation, My compatriots had no idea how to prepare a barrack block. Most of them only joined as aircrew on a short service commission because they were liable for two years National Service anyway. After a week or two the Saturday morning inspections were faultless.

In the middle of the course National Service was curtailed and it was established that those that withdrew from the course would not be liable for National Service so they were free to go.

About eighteen on the course when we started ; Eight of us passed out and got our commission.

[BEagle]

I am pretty sure now that it is only a matter of time before a common entry philosophy is being put forward by one of those elements of the RAF "wokery" seeking advancement of their political career recognition within the Service ( and beyond)..

One would bally well hope not! I mean, it was bad enough when the hallowed towers of Cranwell admitted those frightful bounders who would otherwise have attended that wretched secondary modern place in Bedfordshire. Simply ghastly....




(No, of course I'm not being serious)

[topgas]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9599079/Civilians-fast-tracked-roles-militarys-secretive-Strategic-Command.htmlAlso in The Times, but behind a paywall

"The military could fast-track civilians into a secretive group that manages joint ventures between the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy.
Ministers are considering letting people go straight into Strategic Command so they do not have to enlist in one of the three armed forces first.
Minister for defence personnel and veterans Leo Docherty said Britain needed to evolve quickly to catch up with foreign nations.
The 44-year-old, who got the role last month, said there could be scope for civilians to apply for cyber, space and military intelligence without having served.
The move would mean applicants do not have to pass the rigorous fitness tests the Armed Forces require or learn to fight on a battlefield.
Mr Docherty, who served with the Scots Guards in Iraq and Afghanistan, also said recruits could be older than 55 when they apply.
They could also enlist as senior officers without putting in the yards lower down the ranks."

[Easy Street]

Am I missing something? It is already possible for civilians to take roles in any of the military commands and sometimes to exercise line management of military personnel by joining that very secretive organisation known as the Civil Service. And people regularly join it directly at senior grades. There are many such people running programmes already, and even some acting as capability sponsors having never served a day in uniform. Surely a minister isn't wasting his time considering what is effectively a trivial administrative question of opening some posts in StratCom up to civil servants?

[Wensleydale]

Last time I saw a Pilot Officer was....... today.
Recently finished IOT and about to start Ops training in august.

That will score a good few points in the RAF I-Spy book!

[ShyTorque]

One would bally well hope not! I mean, it was bad enough when the hallowed towers of Cranwell admitted those frightful bounders who would otherwise have attended that wretched secondary modern place in Bedfordshire. Simply ghastly....
(No, of course I'm not being serious)

On my first tour, as an ex Henlow Officer Cadet, I was the junior pilot for about six months. When my “replacement” arrived his wife was mortified to hear that her husband was now to be known as the “JP”. How could he be...? He was a Cranwell Graduate, don’t you know!

Pesky “Green Shielders”...

[brakedwell]

Was that before Cranwell opened it's doors to the masses or when it only had proper, going to the top students?

[Wasser]

I was SNCO I/C the Line at a busy fast jet OCU. The work was demanding, constantly juggling balls and trying to stay in control, so that the fly boys got to borrow the jets for a few hours whilst also keeping the FLMs happy.

All was going quite well, until one day we got a baby EngO who was with us until he went for further training. Unfortunately, he decided that sticking around the Line office was the place for him, but rather than stay back and watch what was going on he decided to join in by answering the phone, taking messages etc. That's ok, but what he forgot to do was pass the information on to me or even update the 'plastic brain'. This came to a head one day when I returned to the office and saw that 2 aircraft were late back. Where were they? Nobody knew, OMG. Then Bengo walks in and nautulantly announces that Ops had told him they would be late back, but he didn't tell anyone or even update the plastic brain! My counterpart on the other shift was having similar problems with him so we went and saw the Sengo to see if we could get him banned form the Line. He was sympathetic to our cause and his decision was that I should take him under my wing for a week with the target that by the end of the week he would be running the Line...Brilliant!

So, Monday I start showing him the ropes what to do and what to be aware of, how to allocate the FLMs (man management) etc. By Thursday the Sengo asks how he's doing and we agree to let him run the line by himself on Friday. He did reasonably well apart from falling into a few trapholes like forgetting to pick up the Lox trolley from the Lox Bay and allocating a FLM who was on earlies (and finished at 10am on a Friday) to an 11am take off (he tried to tell him he would have to work late). Fortunately for both, I intervened!

I'd like to think that the Bengo learned from that experience and it helped him in his further career. He certainly kept away from my phone. Sengo found it funny!

[Doors Off]

It’s an interesting question. The best boss I ever had, had never served in the ranks. Yet, the worst bosses (plural intended), I ever had, were commissioned from the ranks or ex soldiers whom went through the School of Cool/Fool.

Personally, I believe it’s an attitude thing, rather than a “rank” thing.

[Haraka]

As Cranwell migrates increasingly towards being "Cranwoke", the OP's point will soon in the future be of less import I suspect.

[ShyTorque]

Was that before Cranwell opened it's doors to the masses or when it only had proper, going to the top students?

Not sure what you mean about that. I served along ex Cranwell grads who had served their apprenticeship studying Marine biology, American history and literature and Law.

I was never interested in such subjects, or going to university so I served mine working for two years as a builder’s labourer and then studying a non degree Mechanical Eng course, which included four months of practical work. Having worked alongside some of the lowest of the low, I felt well placed in joining the RAF as aircrew :E.

[Haraka]

ShyTorque"I served along ex Cranwell grads who had served their apprenticeship studying Marine biology, American history and literature and Law" .

brakedwell was from an earlier era and, I submit, ethos.

[charliegolf]

Not sure what you mean about that. I served along ex Cranwell grads who had served their apprenticeship studying Marine biology, American history and literature and Law.

I was never interested in such subjects, or going to university so I served mine working for two years as a builder’s labourer and then studying a non degree Mechanical Eng course, which included four months of practical work. Having worked alongside some of the lowest of the low, I felt well placed in joining the RAF as aircrew :E.

Indistinguishable from the lowest of the low I'd say, Shy.:E

CG

[ShyTorque]

Indistinguishable from the lowest of the low I'd say, Shy.:E

CG

That’s the best thing you’ve ever said to me. Obviously, it wasn’t easy to get to a low enough level to assimilate with certain crewmen ;)

[brakedwell]

Not sure what you mean about that. I served along ex Cranwell grads who had served their apprenticeship studying Marine biology, American history and literature and Law.

I was never interested in such subjects, or going to university so I served mine working for two years as a builder’s labourer and then studying a non degree Mechanical Eng course, which included four months of practical work. Having worked alongside some of the lowest of the low, I felt well placed in joining the RAF as aircrew :E.

Cranwell used to be a two year course with flying training on Piston Provosts/Vampires in the mid fifties when I was learning to fly Vampires at RAF Swinderby. i believe the course was extended to three years for a short time in the mid fifties. Eventually it just ran 12 week IOT coarses.

[Toadstool]

As Cranwell migrates increasingly towards being "Cranwoke", the OP's point will soon in the future be of less import I suspect.

Why is it woke? Have you been there recently? When were you last on Ops and how much more were you effective than those graduates now?

The graduates now are smart, determined, focused, and just as good as those who went before.

If you want any more info, PM me and I’d love to have a chat.

[Haraka]

The Armed Services reflect the evolving ethos of the Society that they are perforce tasked to represent.

And it's not just "The Beano" that's going "woke",,,,,
:)

[Toadstool]

The Armed Services reflect the evolving ethos of the Society that they are perforce tasked to represent.

And it's not just "The Beano" that's going "woke",,,,,
:)

If you ever actually went on Ops, you’d know that was bull****. You didn’t answer my question, but I know why you didn’t.

[Haraka]

Toady Your question was irrelevant ,so why should I bother to react ?
You may presume what you like about my Ops record, spouting vacuous, unfounded and uninformed opinion about another's credentials :).



.

[SASless]

How does going "Woke" improve the war fighting capability of a military unit?

Does long hours of class room or on-line training modules improve the training for combat?

Do we really want to encourage empathy with one's adversaries when it comes to doing combat?

Should the military be the social justice warriors de jour or should that be left to the civvie world?

[Finningley Boy]

It’s an interesting question. The best boss I ever had, had never served in the ranks. Yet, the worst bosses (plural intended), I ever had, were commissioned from the ranks or ex soldiers whom went through the School of Cool/Fool.

Personally, I believe it’s an attitude thing, rather than a “rank” thing.
As an ex-ranker, I'm not in the least surprised. And in answer to the thread question, definitely no! It wouldn't achieve anything worthwhile, it might disrupt the training and required experience of any officer put in this position. A few questions, would the junior ranks and NCOs be made aware? how long would it be for, and in what capacity? Further, is the aim to waste all potential officer's time by making them waste time as junior ranks, first and foremost, as a prerequisite? It sounds like the kind of progressive nonsense which is inflicted on a system which ain't broke. Usually for political reasons rather than a sincere attempt to seek improvement all around.

FB

PS: I hope I haven't simply paraphrased any earlier comments.:}

[ExAscoteer2]

Eventually it just ran 12 week IOT coarses.

Nope.

18 weeks when I went through.

[Cat Techie]

As Cranwell migrates increasingly towards being "Cranwoke", the OP's point will soon in the future be of less import I suspect.

And what is your CV? Got a clasp on any medals? Or is that a clasp on a Bar. Officers Mess bar that is? You a Gibson or a Cheshire or a Bader? Cheshire was the true leader of the three.

[Cat Techie]

Some direct entrant officers I know are the best people I could ever work for. Some ex rankers are the biggest waste of spece people on the planet. Depends on the person.

[Haraka]

And what is your CV? Got a clasp on any medals? Or is that a clasp on a Bar. Officers Mess bar that is? You a Gibson or a Cheshire or a Bader? Cheshire was the true leader of the three.

Looks like it was past your bed time when you posted. :)

[Toadstool]

Whilst it is interesting to hear tales of the RAF of yesteryear, there are always those bores who rail against the current “woke” RAF. Those halcyon days where the closest one got to ops was a Taceval or an inconvenience was the NAAFI running out of duty free cigarettes.

34 years ago a trip to the range was met with dread. The inevitable inspection after getting off the bus when someone had an errant hair on the chin or a spot on the mess tin. Trying to get a tight grouping having ran around the ranges for an hour with an SLR above the head was nigh on impossible. Lying in the prone position and worrying about whether or not the instructor would provide a boot between the legs.

Nowadays, the woke bearded RAF Regt instructor, with a chest full of Campaign medals, would dare to provide coaching on how best to fire my glock. If that makes it woke, I’m happy to be part of it.

Ironically, I’m doing near enough the same job now as I did years ago except, rather than doing it on the Inner German Border, I do it at 30000 ft.

Wokeness, I don’t see it but I’m happy to be proved otherwise by someone who does. That said, all of the rubbish about wokeness is being spouted by people who left years ago and it doesn’t accurately reflect the modern RAF.

[Fareastdriver]

When I served in the RAF from 1960-1978 it was the best flying club in the World.

[langleybaston]

OP is clearly a troll with a chip on his shoulder. However I’m not sure how much pleasure he’ll get when he realises pprune military forum follows the same pattern no matter what the subject is…couple of answers before it goes down a “back in my day”, “I remember when I was in the RAF back in the 1960s/1970s” rabbit hole. In fact, I’d be surprised if there are any responses from anyone who hasn’t been drawing their military pension since the late 90s.

I can surprise you in one. I was never in the RAF [MoD civilian]. This is a response.

However, for what little my opinion is worth, the basic premise by the OP did very well to draw more reply than "the idea is cobblers, move on!".

[Training Risky]

Whilst it is interesting to hear tales of the RAF of yesteryear, there are always those bores who rail against the current “woke” RAF. Those halcyon days where the closest one got to ops was a Taceval or an inconvenience was the NAAFI running out of duty free cigarettes.

34 years ago a trip to the range was met with dread. The inevitable inspection after getting off the bus when someone had an errant hair on the chin or a spot on the mess tin. Trying to get a tight grouping having ran around the ranges for an hour with an SLR above the head was nigh on impossible. Lying in the prone position and worrying about whether or not the instructor would provide a boot between the legs.

Nowadays, the woke bearded RAF Regt instructor, with a chest full of Campaign medals, would dare to provide coaching on how best to fire my glock.

Ironically, I’m doing near enough the same job now as I did years ago except, rather than doing it on the Inner German Border, I do it at 30000 ft.

Wokeness, I don’t see it but I’m happy to be proved otherwise by someone who might actually know.

Well, I left only 6 years ago after completing a Permanent Commission throughout the 'War on Terror' with a few medals, does my view count?

I noticed the insidious mould of 'wokery' creeping into the Service in my last couple of years: the disengagement from Herrick in 2014 seemed to give carte blanche to every snowflake with an -ism to get on every trendy hobby horse going.

From militant gay and transsexual shop stewards in uniform, to the genderblind OJARs, to the huge sums of money spent on making certain roles open to a tiny proportion of women who passed a lowered standard.

Not all serving and recently-served people agree that the RAF is heading in the right direction.

[Q-SKI]

Some direct entrant officers I know are the best people I could ever work for. Some ex rankers are the biggest waste of spece people on the planet. Depends on the person.


absolutely depends on the person, matters not if they served in the ranks or were direct entrants it comes down to the individual whatever their background

[The Oberon]

Just out of curiosity, but do Branch Commissions still exist?

I left as a Chief Tech. in 1986 at my 22 year point but, about 4 years before I left, I was asked if I would like to consider a Branch Commission. The deal was that I had to stay until 55 with Flt/Lt as the ceiling. The chosen few sometimes made Sqn/Ldr.

I didn't follow it up as I planned to go anyway and being stuck with O i/c Radar Bay or a Sqn. J.Eng.O for 15 years didn't inspire me.

[FantomZorbin]

Re: Vigilant Pilot
Those who ignore history are condemned to make the same mistakes of the past (to paraphrase an old proverb)

I was never good at History:uhoh:

[Specaircrew]

I wish I'd spent 3 years in the ranks - the reason being I was commissioned 2 weeks before my 18th birthday and none of my service from then till my 21st birthday counts as pensionable service. If I had been in the ranks all service from 18 would have counted. I have never seen the justice in that, but that's the way it is.
Which is why I transferred from AFPS75 to PA Spine/AFPS05 when it came in, to get those 3 years back and a whole lot more dosh ;-)

[Specaircrew]

One would bally well hope not! I mean, it was bad enough when the hallowed towers of Cranwell admitted those frightful bounders who would otherwise have attended that wretched secondary modern place in Bedfordshire. Simply ghastly....




(No, of course I'm not being serious)
Of course the best thing about going to apostrophe enlow was that you could stay as a Pilot Officer for years (if you got in the **** enough) and therefore getaway with buffoonery much more that those 'Green Shield' Flt Lt types. :-)

[Fareastdriver]

I was asked if I would like to consider a Branch Commission. The deal was that I had to stay until 55 with Flt/Lt as the ceiling.

They had their own tie. On it was a ladder with just two rungs at the bottom.

[superplum]

Just out of curiosity, but do Branch Commissions still exist?

I left as a Chief Tech. in 1986 at my 22 year point but, about 4 years before I left, I was asked if I would like to consider a Branch Commission. The deal was that I had to stay until 55 with Flt/Lt as the ceiling. The chosen few sometimes made Sqn/Ldr..

As an ex-Chief, I was commissioned as a BO in 85. Unless things have changed again, then NO, they stopped BC's late nineties/early twenties. The reason, as given to me by my desk officer (great bloke), was that BC's were too expensive. There was never a ceiling as weitten but time etc limited climb (and perfomance!). I had a fantastic time doing it and made 2.5 rungs on the short ladder.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I did just under 2 years as an OS and AB before being picked up for officer training. To be completely honest the most useful part of the experience was the fact that as an officer I was wise to all the scams and tricks the plugs, problem children, Fu*kups, sick bay rangers etc; used. Those guys and gals are maybe 10 % of the people you are responsible for, but generate 90 % of your work. Most were use to treating junior officers like mushrooms, but they quickly found that did not work for me. Funny enough a significant number of that lot started asking for transfers, a process I did not discourage....

[Royalistflyer]

My brother was interested in electronics at school, so he joined up as an apprentice, did 10 years in the ranks and then made it through to Wing Commander. All I was interested in was flying so no apprenticeship.

[Hydromet]

Not military, but in civilian life one of the engineers I worked with started his working life as a shearer before becoming a technical assistant - almost the lowest of the low, just above clerical assistant. When he saw how much better it was to be an engineer, he did his Matric at night & topped the state in maths, then went to uni and did a M. Eng.
As BPF says, he was wise to all the scams, but he also knew when counselling and mentorship rather than discipline was called for. Also, some senior engineers realised that it was wise to listen to him, especially when it came to dealing with farmers. (We were in the water industry.)
But, as others have said, it depends entirely on the person. I reckon if he'd gone straight from High School to uni he'd still be the much same person.

[The Oberon]

My brother was interested in electronics at school, so he joined up as an apprentice, did 10 years in the ranks and then made it through to Wing Commander. All I was interested in was flying so no apprenticeship.

Sounds as if it could be someone I joined up with, A*** R*** perhaps?

[Old-Duffer]

I worked with several Branch Officers and they were the 'salt of the earth'. As a junior officer they helped and guided me and steered me clear of some potentially ghastly mistakes. When I reached wg cdr and went 'out of branch' in a big way and found myself in a war, I knew I could turn to them and would get the true unvarnished picture, coupled - if necessary - with a: 'I wouldn't advise that Sir' and a knowing smile.

When the unpleasantness was over, I tried get due reward with an MBE for one of them but was unsuccessful, which I viewed as a great shame.

Old Duffer

[longer ron]

I saw both ends of the Branchy spectrum
In the early 70's we had a Sqn Ldr Eng at Cottesnore who was a miserable old git and I think almost universally disliked.
In the late 70's at RAF Brandy we had a younger Sqn Ldr Eng who was excellent and universally liked and respected for his manner and knowledge.
Both I believe were ex Brats.
One of my oldest RAF friends (also ex Brat) ended up as a Branchy Engo but unfortunately turned out to be a lying,cheating extremely untrustworthy character (but that is another story).
So yes - very much depends on the individual concerned.

[Royalistflyer]

Generation earlier, first out of apprentice school, he found himself in the Korean War - a much older brother 10+

[Cat Techie]

Looks like it was past your bed time when you posted. :)

I was a Sgt when I left the RAF. I have one medal with a clasp. I also have one from Telic where I heard a colleague die, while I was trying to find out of the safety of the men of my command. Have you ever done that? Please tell me that you have been in that place? If you have, I may listen to you. I suspect you cannot answer.

[Haraka]

Cat Techie
See post 131 :)

[Slow Biker]

During a conversation with my SEngO about the merits of going to Biggin Hill he gave me encouragement with the sage words: when the **** hits the fan, the officers get the best bit.
I did go but failed, evidently I couldn't put myself in an unreal situation, but do come back for another go. That was enough for me as I knew I would be found out at Cranwell - I just didn't have that burning desire to be an officer. Family pressure had a part to play, an uncle a retired SL and a cousin married to a 1 star RN officer, me just a sgt.
Years later it was suggested I go the commissioned WO route but the family was well settled and I had the dream job as a squadron WO, so no thanks.

Talking of being found out at Cranwell, I had a friend in the air cadets who wanted to be a pilot. During my boy entrant training we met, he had made it to Cranwell and was on his way to fulfil his dream. When I'm a pilot he told me, I'll give my helmet to an erk and tell him to paint on it my design, it might even be you! Some friend.
Months later we met again and I asked how things went at Cranwell, oh I left, he said, they were teaching things I did at school so it was a waste of time. Yes, Cranwell will find you out.