March 2009 - Instructing - what are we all getting paid

[ironhorse]

Hello all,

I am aware that threads regarding income have been and gone.

I am led to believe the instructing market right now is pretty bad. Plenty of FI's but not enough positions to fill. Is this true and across the UK has it eroded the salarys and hourly rates? I am a busy PPL FI but would like to know the existing incomes for folk as I am being told by the boss that he can get FI's for free (whoever you are, please DO NOT devalue us and prostitute yourselves for nothing:ugh:) which is effecting my income now.

Also what is the going rate for CPL instructors across the UK? A quick idea would really help.

thanks

[ironhorse]

can anyone advise on incomes then..or is it embarrassingly low to say!

thanks

[madlandrover]

PPL FI: variable, but a good average is £25/day retainer and £15-17/hour for normal VFR day/night instructing.

CPL: again depends on experience, but most seem to be salaried at at least £21000/year. Bigger schools pay more but also have more formalities to cope with!

[ewsd02]

Surprised this thread hasn't taken off in the current climate, perhaps people don't want to display their income!

A friend of mine gets £20/hr teaching PPL with £200/week retainer, another gets no retainer and £25/hr. They are in opposite ends of the country and get 40-50hrs on a decent month.

Anyone offering to work for free at the expense of people who do it for a living should take a long hard look at themselves.

[PD210]

How does £20 per flying hour and zero retainer sound? This is as a full time unrestricted PPL/Night Instructor. I believe this to be too low, despite the current climate.

[ironhorse]

Lets say you were offered £900 retainer a month and £15 per hour to instruct for the CPL would you take it??

Was thinking of doing this despite having a 737 TR and looking for work with no success

[Rob's Dad]

Iron Horse

Teaching SEP CPL either:

a. £15k basic for up to 35 hrs per month, plus £21 per hr bonus after that (average 55 hrs a month but often no bonus during the winter); or,

b. no salary but £35 for each hr of flying with min payment of 1.5 hrs per day if no flying possible.

Hope that helps.

[Duchess_Driver]

Lets say you were offered £900 retainer a month and £15 per hour to instruct for the CPL would you take it??

Was thinking of doing this despite having a 737 TR and looking for work with no success

Question....why are you asking?

You are the only one who knows your own circumstances. You are the only one who knows which school have made the offer. You are the only one who can compare the offer to what you're currently earning. You're the only one who can compare the working environment to where you currently work.

Guess who's the only one who can really answer your question......simples!

[VFE]

What you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabouts in this game.

Your own personal financial circumstances and motivation to fly are the easiest ways of answering the question.

Play safe and take the high retainer to afford some peace of mind in the winter?

Or...

Go balls out and reap the higher pay in the summer by flying your backside off?

Once you have over 1000 hours in the logbook I defy anyone to say they still have that same high motivation to get in the air, especially if an airline job is their ultimate aim. In my short time as an instructor I have learnt to spot the tell tale signs of battle fatigue a mile off! :}

I opted for the risk averse option from day one.

VFE.

[flygirl 001]

Hi there.
What I am up against is retired airline and RAF pilots who just do the odd half day, perhaps 1.5 hrs flying, when it doesnt clash with taking "her in" down to the garden centre.

If FIs start doing it for free they will damage the whole industry...

[EGCC Wannabe]

Low hour self Employed FI(R) working at two schools.
1st school. No retainer, £25/hour.
2nd school. No retainer, £16/hour.

There is very little work out there. I need the hours. :sad:

[Happy Wanderer]

Salaried PPL instructor at a modular FTO - £13k pa, rising to £16k pa after successful probation (currently six months), plus £6 ph flying pay.

Flying hours vary - flew about 35 hours in Jan and Feb (aiming for 50+ hrs pcm), but also deliver PPL groundschool around flying duties.

Friends and family occasionally question my sanity for working for this amount, but the deal's not bad given the current state of the industry.

HW

[VFE]

Flygirl 001,

Yeah my friends and family question my sanity, and so did I to begin with, but when I slip on top (oi behave!) on a grey morning and see the smile on the punters face it somehow seems to pale into insignificance what is actually in my bank account and is precisely the reason retired airline pilots and RAF crew still prefer to get away from "her in" years after most other professional types have retired and are out creating golfing widows.

Build up some hours and move on to the next job up and stroll back into the flying club years later with a fresh outlook on the world and instruct for fun. Salaries are what kill flying schools and although I'm on the payrole I can clearly see my position is vulnerable for all the reasons above. Last thing ya wanna do is get a chip on your shoulder about it... do the odd bit and keep smiling. Life is too short. Hours will come eventually and anything over 1000 in your logbook on small aircraft makes little difference so unless you plan to move onto more advance teaching it's a waste of time hammering it out like a freshly minted FI. Smell the roses.... go with the flow... if there's one thing my 'career' has taught me so far it is to take things as they come because planning gets you nowhere when lady luck plays such a big part.

VFE.

[RSFTO]

intercokpit in croatia 4000 euro netto per month.

at Lund university in sweden 2500 euro netto per month.

these figure are based on 40 hours phisical presence at the fto per week.

May be if all the instructor would be so united to stick to fixed salaries or nothing the category would improve.

[OneIn60rule]

What would it be like if space pilots came down to earth to fly 737's just for fun and free.

Assuming that in the near future we will have that sort around.




1/60

[will fly for food 06]

I am not going to give amounts but I think I am extremely lucky as an instructor. My boss believes in retaining his team and pays them well. I have all my ratings renewed and paid for by the school, have a company pension plus a retainer/hourly rate that is fantastic for PPL instruction. I wish that the wages were more even throughout the UK. Its very sad to see how very little people are getting paid especially as a full time PPL instructor wage is still half the national average for a full time wage:{:ugh:

[chrisbl]

The worth of am instructor bears no relationship to the costs of becoming one.

You can probably earn more as a driving instructor and become one at a much lower cost.

[Nearly There]

I qualified as a driving instructor a few years back, it costs around £2900 now, earnings are often quoted as being circa £30k in the TV adverts, what they dont tell you though is outgoings for car, student no-shows, fuel, insurance etc etc, and the training is around 10 days in total from the college, majority of it is self study at home or buddy system in your own car!

Its a lot of money for very little instruction, they just guide you really as to what to practice in the car, and no end of feedback style questions to test your own knowledge.

Plus the test fees on top, licence application etc not as expensive as what our lovely CAA charge, but still adds up to hundreds.

The FIC is much better value for money like for like, when you way up what it can lead to, and the hours in the log book if thats what your looking for, is worth £80-£100 per hour if you purchased them yourself.

[RSFTO]

NEARLY THERE , you are very smart in using the usual trik of the logged hours but the true about it is:

IN AIRLINE OR CARGO OR AEROTAXI OR ANY PAID TRANSPORT BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT NOBODY GIVES ANY IMPORTANCE TO SINGLE ENGINE HOURS AS FI

the only one who makes money is the renter of the aircraft

I suspect that you are in busines with a flying school, may be you have one and hires FI with this usual trik

I have a policy : if I have to work as FI must be good monies:

as employed fixed salary based on 40 hours phisical presence per week at the FTO and I do not care what I have to do in those hours ( flying, cleaning, desk job, killing people, no wait, for that I get paid more) as long as I get paid netto in my hands every month at least 2500 euro netto clean in my hands plus benefit ( pensions and more)

as freelancer 1 euro or GBP per minute from when I show up until I get dismissed netto clean in my hands

May be if all FI would apply this all united , and believe me after the first week no aircraft flies, WE ALL WILL HAVE A BETTER LIVING

Do not fall for the fact that you log hours because at any selection the people who hires do not consider FI hous on single engine, not even on ME, and FI hours do not make you any better HANDLING pilot

[Nearly There]

RSFTO, thanks for recognising me as a smart chap, but you have me wrong, I am currently training towards the FI rating and not linked to any schools.

IN AIRLINE OR CARGO OR AEROTAXI OR ANY PAID TRANSPORT BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT NOBODY GIVES ANY IMPORTANCE TO SINGLE ENGINE HOURS AS FI


I have to disagree with you here, I dont know where you are from, but in the UK, I worked in ops for a freight company and FOs mainly came from an instructing and some times air taxi background, from there I moved onto a FTO and air taxi company working in ops, there air taxi pilots again came from the flying school or from other schools where they had been working as instructors.

The market is slow at the moment, but instructors are recognised over the 250 hour fATPL holder, and Im sure there are many examples of the success of such on here who will hopefully back up my observations.

[RSFTO]

I am sicilian with civil U.K. license and I have 747 and 320 tr and also helicopter and seaplanes multiengine and I jump between line and fi jobs around the globe, included U.K. , following the criteria of whatever gives me the better life in terms of time out of the job/monies+benefits and regular family life with my children, and I have been making a living on aircrafts since 1987 and I tell you that whoever choose between pilots prefer to get on board whoever has 100 hrs as pilot flying something rather then 500 hrs as FI.

I tell you all: do not be reluctant to refuse FI jobs at bad terms and conditions. The pilot category , especialy here in west europe, has been ruined by all those just made pilots who pays tr and even to work and the fi category by those who sells themselves cheap or gratis.

If we do not stik united, and so far in the last 10 years has never happened, to preserve some decency in working terms, we will get worst and worst.

[OneIn60rule]

Saying all airlines disregard your FI hours is a load of bullocks.

I can name at least one airline that will pick you if you have more hours and respects how you gained said hours. Hence your statement is false.

Of course you have airlines that don't care for your hours if you don't pay for the type rating.

Would you want to work for such an airline?

1/60

[Duchess_Driver]

and FI hours do not make you any better HANDLING pilot

Thread drift.

...sorry to ruffle feathers, but the above statement is absolute tosh as far as I am concerned. I probably wasn't that good to start off with but I am a much better pilot now than I was before I started instructing.

The approaches that used to be flown 'about right' in terms of speed are now spot on. The heights that were +/- 50 feet before are much tighter now. The whole shooting match is a much more polished affair. That 1/2 dot on the CDI - gone. I'm far more spacially aware of what's happening - not just to the aeroplane I'm in but to others in the vacinity. I know where I am all the time.

Why? Because I fly much more regularly now, professionally - I instruct. IMHO - flying of any kind makes you a better handling pilot.


Rant over

[RSFTO]

1 in 60 name the airline and watch your mouth. you used improper and unpolite words to define my writing. for your "...bullocks" I tell you: you are an idiot and unpolite person.

What I WRITE is MY OPINION. YOU CAN AGREE. YOU CANNOT AGREE. YOUR FREE CHOISE. I write FACTS that I experienced in my 25 years of aviation.

NAME the airline or avoid giving information we all cannot verify and do not use unpolite and improper words with me YOU CAN USE THEM WITH WHOEVER LET YOU USE THEM not with me.

You above this , what you write is true when you have 200 hrs total time, I do not know what TOSH means , I take it you mean NOT TRUE IN YOUR CASE, if it is an improper word as bullocks then what I said to 1to 60 is valid for you as well.

I have 6000+ and I stopped logging 2 years ago because I do not need to log anymore, I believe you will change in this issue when you will have 3000+ hours instructing, you will tell me when you get there if you will.

BOTTOM LINE: FOR WHOEVER COMES IN THE BUSINESS OF FLIGHT TRAINING, KEEP IT A GOOD BUSINESS BY DOING IT FOR GOOD MONIES ONLY, AND MAKE SURE YOU KEEP IT A GOOD BUSINESS BECAUSE IT MIGHT END UP BEING THE ONLY BUSINESS YOU WILL BE IN. BEST LUCK TO ALL IN BECAMING B747 OR A380 CAPTAINS OR HEAD OF TRAINING AND FE IN THE MOST PAID SCHOOL IN THE WORLD OR SPONSORED ACROBATIC PILOTS AT 10000 EURO SALARY PER MONTH PLUS BENEFITS OR GAINING THE SAME BY FLYING AN ULTRA LIGHT SINGLE SEAT.

I salute every body and feel free to waste your time correcting my grammar mistakes, I will appreciate it and learn from it.

So long...

[OneIn60rule]

It's not impolite at all. You on the other hand are stating that everyone with hundreds of hours FI will not get a shot.


How do you justify hiring a 100 man compared to a 500 hour FI?

The only reason that happens is if the 500 hour is too full of himself or perhaps that airline prefers individuals it can mold. This doesn't mean the FI hours won't be respected elsewhere.

Finally, you have referred to me as an "idiot" and that is an insult.

Get it right!

1/60

[Duchess_Driver]

Tosh is a UK term, (slang) for rubbish.

In short, your statement that being an FI does not make you a better HANDLING pilot is in my opinion wrong, VERY wrong. And continuous practice at exercising a skill will improve it and that includes those of us who choose to instruct for a living.

Not all of us are aiming to go drive a big shiney tube!

I do not feel I was rude, but I am sorry if people disagreeing with what you write offends you.

[jez d]

While RSFTO makes a valid point - that one should try and hold out for the best possible terms, unfortunately the reality in the UK currently is that PPL flight training is on its knees.

I am not referring to a slump in the number of new PPL students (although that in itself is starting to be felt) but more the financial aspect of having to cap PPL courses around the £7,000 mark in order to compete with foreign flight training organisations, as well as remaining competitive within the domestic market. On current training rates, flight schools make an average of £5-£8 per hour, per aircraft, once costs are factored in. Add to this the inevitable weekly avionics failure or other costly glitch and one quickly realises why FTOs simply cannot afford to pay FIs more.

As has long been the case, those instructors who need to earn a living and who are not living off large pensions, are having to look at instructing part time and supplementing their incomes elsewhere. This leaves then, either relatively inexperienced instructors who are hours building to make them more attractive to airlines (yes, RSFTO, many airlines DO take instructing hours into consideration - although I'll admit this was not always the case), or those who are retired and are instructing for the joy of it, not the income - and given EASA has removed the requirement for instructors to be CPL rated, this route is now even more accessible. Personally, I view the removal of the CPL requirement as being a double-edged sword, but it does mean that those PPL holders who have many years of piloting experience and thousands of hours, will be able to pass on their skills to the next generation without having to pay through the nose to get FI rated.

Having run a successful flying school/airfield operation in the past, with in excess of 50 students training at any one time and 600+ airfield members, I can report that the flying school took roughly 75% of my time and generated about 10% of the profit - the restaurant was far more profitable.

Cheers, jez

[RSFTO]

eNGLISH I learned it by my Scottish grand mather in Sicily but it is not my native language and thereafter My vocabulary IS NOT 100% COMPLETE.

I felt abused by your ...bull.... whatever and I thought it is an insult. You say you did not insult me, if that is true I am fine.

Please explain to me what bull.. means. If it is a polite word to use I will start using it.

PLEASE NAME THE AIRLINE YOU WERE REFERRING TO.

I apologize for calling you idiot. Sincerely.

noble D...D... I appreciate your vocabulary clarification. I DO NOT FEEL OFFENDED BY YOU DO NOT AGREEING WITH ME. FEEL FREE NOT TO AGREE WITH ME AS MUCH AND AS LONG AS YOU WANT. WE CAN STILL BE FRIENDS AND WE CAN STILL COMMUNICATE AT YOUR WISH. all the world whole population not agreeing with me does not offend me. You are very wrong in that.

BOTTOM LINE: I DO NOT CARE IF I FLY MY LOVE B 747-200 OR A CESSNA152, I FLY WHATEVER PAYS ME MORE AND I WISH I FIND SOMEONE WHO PAYS ME 10000 EURO PER WEEK TO FLY HIS SINGLE ENGINE LAND VFR ONLY OPERATIONS AND AS A MATTER OF FACT WHEN FI JOB PAYS ME MORE THEN AIRLINE JOB I SWITCH TO FI JOB AND IN THE PAST 25 YEARS I HAVE SWITCHED OR DONE BOTH OF THEM BECAUSE I WORK WITH FLYING TO BE RICH BUT IF I DO NOT GET PAID AS MUCH AS I WANT I DO NOT WORK/FLY.

good night everybody.

[RSFTO]

I am stil waiting for AIRLINE NAME.

[Simon150]

Flybe minimum requirement (on their website) is 50 hours in the past 6 or 12 months - can't remember which. They don't care whether its FI or 737 time as long as you have it.

50 hours btw in the UK will cost you about the same as an FI rating if you were to hire from a club and do it that way.

So there is one at least. When it comes to an interview, 500 hours of FI would probably put you in a better position than 500 hours of bimbling.

...course 50 737 hours probably trumps FI hours in the interview!

[VFE]

And when questioned at interview about how seriously you took instructing will you tell them it was a simple means for you to get more hours under your belt?

VFE.

[woodcoc2000]

VFE: And when questioned at interview about how seriously you took instructing will you tell them it was a simple means for you to get more hours under your belt?


Dont think that will be relevant in an airline interview situation. after all if you were really after instructing as a career then why would you be at the interview?? besides; assuming at least one of the interviewers is a pilot they will have 'been there, done that' and probably not care about the answer; and likely not bother to ask in the first place. all in my very own humble opinion though. any hours are better than no hours.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

[VFE]

That is where you are wrong. They will most likely wish to discover your commitment to their business henceforth will delve into why you chose to arrive on their doorstep via the route you did. Hop over to parachute dropping (for instance) and they'll most likely ask why you chose to change job.

Yes, it is just part of the interview process but you'll need to be more convincing about your ambitions than you appear here if you wish to succeed at an airline. Show your true feelings towards instructing and your feet won't touch.

Just trying to give you a heads up 'cause I can see you selling yourself and the profession of instructing short mate. Any training captain worth his weight will admire someone who shows commitment to instructing. Don't kid yourself.

VFE.

[Underdog]

Came across this thread by accident - just been Googling what it'd take to renew my QFI rating and SEP stuff before that (it's not called QFI now I believe, which shows how long I've been out of G/A flying!)

I just wanted to point out a few things for those aspiring to airline style ops, as there seems to be some confusion as to whether FI hours count for much.

There are many airlines that don't give diddly-squat for how many hours instructing you've done, and indeed, will take on someone straight from an approved school before someone with 1000hrs of FI. Indeed BA will not take you on as a DEP until you have several hundred hours in a multi-crew environment - theywill take you on straight from Oxford etc. (albeit on a reduced salary for a few years - SSP rates)

There will always be a handful of operators that will recruit FIs before a 100hr wonder! It invariably (in the smaller operators) comes down to the Chief Pilot's preferences (in larger organisations, policy will be set by committee, and the companies may well have close ties to schools) - many smaller operators have a higher percentage of self-improver type pilots, which may well include the Chief Pilot in turn steering him/her one way or the other!

As for whether being an FI improves your handling, well sure, it'll improve lots of things; I was pretty fair at throwing an aircraft around as a QFI, I had been taught well in the UAS and bought a lot to the table of instructing. My handling then changed/improved further by flying Sheds for 5 years with no autopilot (although my aeros became a bit rusty.) But since moving to airlines proper, i.e. Heavy Metal stuff, my handling skills have been eroded significantly through the years - and you know what? on a day to day basis - it doesn't matter! Airlines don't care how good your 'handling' is, as long as it's 'good enough' for the usual suspects, RTO, EFATO, limiting X-Wind etc. Most of the time, we are systems operators, and on modern FBW jets, even with the autopilot un-plugged we aren't really flying the aircraft ourselves. Hell, in my company, we aren't even allowed to use manual thrust, unless the autothrust has failed!!

Handling skills aren't what it's about, airlines are looking for someone that will adhere to SOPs, be 'company' minded, generally 'fit-in', and not be a total w*nker!! Ticking those boxes, is far more important than any blatting around in a SEP, no matter how good you are at it!!

Do I wish the above wasn't true? Hell, yes! I fly with many (most) good guys and gals, but just occassionally, I feel like I've gone back to instructor days - so not only am I looking after nearly 200 pax down the back, but I'm keeping an eye on matey who doesn't seem to be particularly aware of what's going on. I'd suggest that the self-improver has the advantage there, in that it's the 'awareness' of your surroundings, and what else is going on 'outside'of your own flight-deck that the 100hr guys lack, and the FI peeps win.

It's not me you've got to convince though (I've experienced all of the above at first hand!) The fact is, the difference between a good and a poor FI candidate can be immense. The difference between a good school graduate and a poor one, is less marked - purely because the really poor ones don't graduate. There's a certain safety there for the airlines, it's not so much of a gamble when they hire from the schools, as they're getting a known quantity, that will have had reports written about them many times over as they progress through the system.

Maybe not what you want to hear, but don't despair. If you are totally dedicated things will happen for you (you may have to make them happen!) I got qualified just before the 1990 downturn, I managed to join an airline where the Chief Pilot was sympathetic to self-improvers, a few years later I did my own 75' rating and worked for a charter outfit, finally joining my current mob 11 1/2 years ago. After 10 years I got my command (guess who I work for :rolleyes:) and it'll be another 7 or 8 years before I get back to LongHaul.

What I'm trying to say is, just because you may consider your 1000's of hours instructing worthwhile, don't expect everyone to think the same way.

If I had my time again, to get into an airline, I would NOT have done the self-improving route. But, for a great personal experience (and a great leveller) it's hard to beat.

[VFE]

Great post Underdog - many thanks. :)

VFE.

[Stumpyotoole]

...but why is it always about the hours. Or more to the point, why do the 'discussions' start mainly about the hours AND the money?! FI's are paid poorly, its well known by the FI's and not so well known by others -a friend of mine was recently shocked when told how little I earn - and came out with the usual two questions,

1)Don't you want to fly for the airlines? (answer - no, never felt the desire to, can't promise i never will but am quite happy not doing so at the moment) and

2)how do you afford to live? Simple, I have a job and I have a career. the job pays the bills - its only part time but it allows me to spend the rest of my time doing what i love doing. No, not just the flying but hanging around at the club, socialising with members and students, enjoying the sunshine (ok that may be wishful thinking) and teaching people something. I WANT to pass on my knowledge, i WANT to see people enjoy what I enjoy, I WANT to be able to go to work and know that when i finish the job, the LIFE is waiting for me elsewhere. I enjoy the Job, but I love the flying.

I appreciate that hours count for jobs further up the line, and money certainly helps with living. but honestly - did you start flying because you enjoyed it? and did you carry on getting qualified and picking up ratings because you were driven by money or the bug? I was lucky enough to have a great instructor who instilled the JOY of flight in me, I want to pass that on! It may sound naieve but i really do believe that you start flyingf or whatever reason you start flying, but unless you enjoy it you won't carry on. Its not all about the money, its not all about the hours!

I am not ashamed to say that I accepted the awful FI wages, as many of us do, but though my bank manager knocks at the door in the back of my mind about the money i have ploughed into getting here, I can't go back to the time BA (before aviation). Keep your chins up when you are gettingdepressed about the conditions. who else in the world gets 360 degree views with no buildings in the way, a variety of people to work with and the freedom to soar?!

[woodcoc2000]

Just trying to give you a heads up 'cause I can see you selling yourself and the profession of instructing short mate. Any training captain worth his weight will admire someone who shows commitment to instructing. Don't kid yourself


VFE

I hear what you are saying, honestly. to clarify i used to instruct full time and now do so once a week; the reason being that i like it. I orginially was a full time FI in order to gain hours like many thousands before me (and because i thought i would enjoy it hence didnt get into paradrops or something different). So my motivation was and still is personal gain AND enjoyment. nothing wrong with that i hope. When asked why i wanted to join the flying school i was completely honest as above.

my main point was a future airline employer is not likely to care about your motivation for working in a flying school in the past now are they?? They may care about how you got on while you were there and if you contributed something positive. Sure the airline interviewer will want to hear about your flying past, but it will all be about how you got to this point in your flying career, and of course where you may be going (where do you see yourself in 5 years?). When you go through your story and tell how you were an FI then bit of air taxi etc you will likely get a knowing nod and smile because guess what? Answer= the interviewer has likely been there and done that..