Tailwheel Instruction

[althevet]

Hi,
I am a fairly recent ppl holder with about 70hrs total time. I have trained on c152's and more recently, i have been flying warriors. I'm reasonably happy with my flying but I'm sure i've got lazy rudder feet! I would like to have more finesse to my flying and have more confidence in crosswinds etc.
I think I can "get by" without this on these aircraft, but would like to do more than just get by.
A tail wheel endorsement seems the way to go, but on doing searches on pprune it seems as though the quality of the instruction on tailwheel aircraft varies enormously with the experience of the individual instructor.
Does anyone have any recommendations of individual instructors to the west of London. Denham, White Waltham etc are very near, but i'm happy to travel to get experienced instruction.
Does this sound a good idea ? Any other advice?
Thanks very much
Al

[rtl_flyer]

I used Bruce Hutton at White Waltham, and recommend him. Did my t/w in the Cub, and then complex in Arrow.

Regards

Tim

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Althevet,

A little word of caution.

I learned to fly in 1960 at a time when we were all taildragger pilots, although then it was called flying an aircraft with a 'conventional undercarriage'. (You were thought posh if you flew a tricycle in those days). This was followed by many years when, for various reasons, I couldn't fly at all.

Then in 2005 I resumed flying and, after renewing my PPL, I decided I wanted to go back onto taildraggers. I then learned the hard way that the quality of taildragger training available had become, shall we say, 'variable'.

To be a competent taildragger pilot, you need to be taught two ways of landing the aircraft; the 'three point' landing and the 'wheeler' or 'roller' landing. The wheeler landing is especially valuable for cross-wind landings and especially in a strong wind.

Nowadays, they seem to teach you to land cross-wind by stalling in on one main and the tailwheel. This works fine in a light cross-wind, but if the wind is strong or gusty then you definitely need the wheeler landing technique. I did ask to do wheelers with my instructor, but he said "no, do it this way" and insisted I stick to the stalling-in method.

Not long afterwards, when landing in a strong crosswind by the stalling-in method, I ground-looped the aircraft. I am certain that if I had been using the wheeler landing technique, this would never have happened. Perhaps this sort of thing may be one reason why taildraggers have now acquired such a reputation for ground-looping, which they never had years ago.

So far, I have not found anywhere today where they teach wheeler landings as a matter of routine, at least not without being asked specifically to do so.

I have even heard of some places where they don't teach cross-wind landings in taildraggers at all.

I would recommend that you should first read 'The Compleat Taildragger Pilot' by H S Plourde, before you go anywhere for training.

Whoever you do eventually choose to do your course with, make sure they have the capability to teach you properly.

Broomstick.

[S-Works]

I am stunned to hear that people do not teach wheelers. I teach that before we move onto 3 point. Talk about only giving people half the tools for a job. Shocking.

[will5023]

Don't always asume that a wheeler in a cross wind is the thing to do, some tail draggers prefer to be three pointed, wing down etc, and can think of one that was a pain to wheel on because of it's low wing and a bigger engine up front, so check don't assume, but yes in general wheelers will work.

Will.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Taildragging
Hi Althevet,

A little word of caution.

I learned to fly in 1960 at a time when we were all taildragger pilots, although then it was called flying an aircraft with a 'conventional undercarriage'. (You were thought posh if you flew a tricycle in those days). This was followed by many years when, for various reasons, I couldn't fly at all.

Then in 2005 I resumed flying and, after renewing my PPL, I decided I wanted to go back onto taildraggers. I then learned the hard way that the quality of taildragger training available had become, shall we say, 'variable'.

To be a competent taildragger pilot, you need to be taught two ways of landing the aircraft; the 'three point' landing and the 'wheeler' or 'roller' landing. The wheeler landing is especially valuable for cross-wind landings and especially in a strong wind.

Nowadays, they seem to teach you to land cross-wind by stalling in on one main and the tailwheel. This works fine in a light cross-wind, but if the wind is strong or gusty then you definitely need the wheeler landing technique. I did ask to do wheelers with my instructor, but he said "no, do it this way" and insisted I stick to the stalling-in method.

Not long afterwards, when landing in a strong crosswind by the stalling-in method, I ground-looped the aircraft. I am certain that if I had been using the wheeler landing technique, this would never have happened. Perhaps this sort of thing may be one reason why taildraggers have now acquired such a reputation for ground-looping, which they never had years ago.

By how many different means can the 3-point vs wheeler debate for crosswind landings rear its head?

You'll find highly experienced taildragger pilots arguing for both as the 'only' way to handle a major crosswind. I am sure it depends on the aircraft and the pilot. There is no one right method.

The ultimate criterion which defines when a crosswind is unmanageable is when you run out of rudder and I don't see how 3-pointer vs wheeler can affect that. I generally use a 3-pointer for all crosswinds in the Cub.

[althevet]

Thanks very much for the great info, and for taking the time to reply. I have just ordered the book, and Broomstick, I will take what you say regarding wheelers on board. Tim, I'll try and contact Bruce and see if he is available.
Great advice :ok:
Al

[Flintstone]

Al.

It's been a few years (about 18 :() since I started off as a PPL which I did on a Super Cub at Clacton who were then considered to be one of if not THE place for tailwheel training.

I'm certain the instructors are a completely different bunch these days but I'm sure they're worth a look. Back then they were also about the cheapest, my lasting recollection of places like White Waltham, Elstree and Denham was £££££.

[2hotwot]

It is all down to the aeroplane type.
I seem to remember that the reason for wheeling a Tiger for example, was to keep the rudder in the airflow and working for as long as possible to get the aircraft speed as low as possible before committing directional control to the tailskid after lowering the tail. (Bear in mind also that the Tiger x-wind limit was 5 knots). The tailskid did not work very well especially when worn, so the exciting bit happened more slowly and at the end of the landing.
With a cub as an example, with its good steerable tailwheel it has always felt best to get it on the ground as soon as reasonable.
Then there is the mainwheel position in relation to the c of g and how light the tail is that makes a big difference to groundlooping characteristics and of course the height of the c of g because a Tiger for example has the fuel in the top wing.
But a great deal of it is, I believe, down to keeping good directional control so that groundlooping inertia does not build up.
If you have been taught to land properly on a C150, tailwheel conversion should not be a great challenge. The trouble is you can get away with so much on a nosewheel without it biting.

[weido_salt]

Ah tailwheel. A dying art indeed.

In a previous life I used to fly tailwheel aircraft. I can still tell, today who have flown tailwheel and who have not. The tailwheel trained pilot will use his feet effectively, on or near the ground more so than others. I can still here my instructors words ringing in my ear. " Have you ever pedalled a pedal car XXX?" Yes. " Well pedal the F'in thing!".

If you really want to be able to get the feel of a tailwheel and go someway toward mastering the art, then try and get a hold of a Cessna 180/185, with an Instructor who knows how to fly the thing. This of course should be after your conversion, say on a PA 18, or similar. If you can master that machine in a good gusty xwind, then it will be good grounding for most other tailwheel machines. In fact good grounding and training, period, as you will not see most tailwheel trained pilots land with drift, relative to the ground. Like other arts, you do not forget it, just maybe become a little rusty.

The technique I employed, as did most others at the time, was the "tail down wheeler" in most cases. This covered most eventualities. The three pointer has it's uses but does put more of a strain on the airframe, over a period of time. Some of the advanced tailwheel aircraft I operated over a ten year period had tailwheel locks. Locking the tailwheel was achieved by full back stick, releasing a locking pin to lock the tailwheel in the central position. This was good as it saved the wheel brakes somewhat. Full forward stick, would withdraw that pin and the tailwheel would caster. The Thrust Commander was one such machine that employed this. The others would lock towards the centre and released by a chain connected to the rudder.

As I am no longer an Instructor I will refrain from further comment.

[irish seaplane]

If you really want to be able to get the feel of a tailwheel and go someway toward mastering the art, then try and get a hold of a Cessna 180/185, with an Instructor who knows how to fly the thing. This of course should be after your conversion, say on a PA 18, or similar. If you can master that machine in a good gusty xwind, then it will be good grounding for most other tailwheel machines

Be a rare flying instructor that could catch a Skywagon when its starts to head for hedge! I could have done with him last year when I bought one :ok:

Good luck with the tailwheel flying - my advice is just buy one!


Irish

[False Capture]

Althevet,

Bruce is the first instructor you see in the TV progarmme "Dangerous Adventures for Boys" with Martin Kemp and son. He did their first few flights on the tiger Moth.

When you fly with him make sure you refer to him as "Sleeve Wing".;)

[aseanaero]

I did my initial taildragger in a Pitts S2A , I was out doing solo crosswind circuits (I prefer wheeler for crosswinds) at a fairly busy GA airport and the wind started to change direction and I ended up landing with a quartering tailwind with gusts for my last landing just before they changed the active runway.

Landing was ok and I was doing a full stop landing but slowing down through about 25 knots the Pitts wanted to do a 90 degree left turn as a gust of wind caught the tail. I caught the swing but my right leg was still shaking when I was on the taxiway :)

So althevet if you ever get a quartering tailwind don't even try it in a taildragger , find another runway (I learnt my lesson)

If you want some 'real flying' find a taildragger with an open cockpit , I loved it. I tried Pitts, Stearman and Stampe, never got to the Tiger Moth.

Get a decent set of headsets or helmet, my first flight in the Pitts was in a cloth helmet with bakelite speakers and my ears were ringing for hours afterwards.

For the Pitts S2A the wheeler seemed the better technique , I also flew a Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter (great plane) and that aircraft was happier with a 3 point landing in crosswinds so it depends on the aircraft in my opinion.

Nothing like flying around in an open cockpit in the calm air before sunset , the stuff daydreams are made of !

[althevet]

Thanks for the great advice, everyone. Strangely all the warnings and cautions seem to have an underlying feeling of enthusiasm and fondness for the difficulty involved!
Can't wait to start.
Cheers
Al

[S-Works]

I fly a turbine powered taildragger (Finist SMG92). 700hp makes you realise what your feet are for. You also get used to reacting in both directions as you move from forward to reverse thrust!!

The Finist like the Porter is easier to 3 point in a cross wind than wheel it and once the tail is down it is easier to get it into ground beta.

I do think that flying conventional gear sharpens pilot skills and helps develop a better appreciation of the dynamics of aircraft handling on the ground.

[Aerial Chauffeur]

I fly a turbine powered taildragger (Finist SMG92). 700hp makes you realise what your feet are for. You also get used to reacting in both directions as you move from forward to reverse thrust!!

The Finist like the Porter is easier to 3 point in a cross wind than wheel it and once the tail is down it is easier to get it into ground beta.

BOSE - what does your boasting have to do with the original posters question?

[S-Works]

Not sure what you are getting at AC. I was adding perspective to the discussion.

Or are you just looking for a fight? 2 posts into PPRUNE and you come out fighting.

I fly a turbine powered taildragger (Finist SMG92). 700hp makes you realise what your feet are for. You also get used to reacting in both directions as you move from forward to reverse thrust!!

The Finist like the Porter is easier to 3 point in a cross wind than wheel it and once the tail is down it is easier to get it into ground beta.

I do think that flying conventional gear sharpens pilot skills and helps develop a better appreciation of the dynamics of aircraft handling on the ground.

[aseanaero]

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:2sotuhfLp_VGTM:http://www.clubacrobaticosevilla.com/Socios/Eder_Finist2.JPG

Never heard of a Finist SMG92 , looks nice !

[Lister Noble]

Thanks for the picture,great aircraft.

Bose,what do you use it for?
I didn't think you were into aerial applications(crop spraying);)

AC
The only thing he boasts about is his headset:}

Lister:)

[S-Works]

Lister, it is a para-dropping aircraft.

[Rod1]

Bose,

He may be on his second post on PPrune, but he could be one of your “friends” from flyer. You are picking up a lot of flack this week, despite me sticking up for you. Every so often you could consider stopping digging:E

Rod1

[S-Works]

Ah the green eyed monsters emerge. I feel like Jade Goody.
:ooh:

[Lister Noble]

I think they may have had one at Old Buckenham a couple of years ago for parachuting.
Lister:)

[S-Works]

We have a couple of them on the fleet along with the big stuff. As well as our own drop zones, aircraft and crews are rented to other zones around Europe for events, boogies etc. So there is a good chance you may have seen it at Old Buck. I think they are operating a Caravan now.

[Lister Noble]

They are,I think maybe the turbine one was Danish reg?
Lister

[S-Works]

Hungarian.

[julian_storey]

I think maybe the turbine one was Danish reg?

The Danish reg. aircraft that looks a bit like a Finist was the Beaver which was involved in the tragic accident down at Headcorn a couple of years ago.

The Turbo Finist is a Russian built (originally piston engined I believe) aircraft which gets re-engined with a Czech turbine engine by some Hungarians.

[MarkerInbound]

Odd, wheel landings are required for the signoff in the US.