PPL (H) at Redhill, Surrey, UK - Help please!

[Swiss Cheese]

Hi all,

I want to start a PPL H at my local airfield, Redhill, Surrey, UK. There are several training providers there with R22/44 on offer.

Is it daft to start on the R44 ab initio? Ultimately, I will not be flying commercially, but privately, but have no idea on what type.

Any views or recommendations (other than ensure the operator is solvent)?

many thanks

James

[Whirlygig]

Is it daft to start on the R44 ab initio?
Not at all if you can afford it :ok: And don't pay up front - just pay for lessons as you take them.

Cheers

Whirls

[chopper2004]

Hey Swiss CHeese

I started PPL H on the 44 and briefly switching to the 22 and its great. According to an article in Vertimag the other year, when there was a special on training and it said that having the 44 as a training type can be advantageous to one's CV when showing it to employers.

I prefer the 44 any day and will be returning to the type to finish off my training.

[Satcop]

Either LHC or EBG will be able to provide you with a PPL course on the R44. Each has there only good/bad points. I suggest that you visit each and chat to instructors/customers and find which one appeals to you.

[pplh]

I'm doing my training in the R22 at the moment and plan to do my R44 conversion soon after finishing.

I'd say that if you can afford to train in the R44 then it seems like a good choice, in my opinion safety and reliability being a bit above that of the R22 (but thats a whole other argument!)

I decided I may actually want to fly the R22 sometimes, for example when on my own or just with one passenger. It seemed silly to pay that much extra for a 4 seater if I'm going to be flying on my own.

Probably doesn't make things any clearer for you but just my two cents!

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Had a trial lesson with EBG min January (R22). Perfectly pleasent people :ok:.
Unfortunately I can't afford to go any further than the initial lesson (yet).

As mentioned above EBG have Robbo 22s & a 44. There is also a Gazelle...

[R44-pilot]

I would say if you can afford to do it all on a R44 then do, if money for flying is not a problem you'll just get spoilt by the R44 and wont want to fly the R22 anyway.

Smoother, faster and safer...... I fly both so not putting the R22 down, but I fly that for cost as much as anything, i'm only saying IF you can afford it go for the R44.

Check out the 300 too, as If I'd of had the money to even think about doing the course on a 44, I would personally of looked at the 300, Alot of people would probably tell you the same.

And if there's only 2 of you and want to potter about your local airspace I think a 300 would be better.

Just my opinion, and for the record I love the Robbies!

[EC155pilot]

Dear Swiss Cheese

Depending on how much moey you want to spend, but there is absoluteley no reason why you should fly R44 for a full ppl syllabus. It is just to spend more money than you need to spend. R22 is a perfectly good trainer. When you have your ppl in hand you can get a typerating on R44 and have more money left to keep yourself current.

Conversion from R22 to R44 is very easy. I am type rated on both types in addition to 8 other types.

By the way I can higly recommend London Helicopter Centres. I did my instructors rating with LHC many years ago. and they will look after you.

[Swiss Cheese]

many thanks all of you. Very interesting views, and all appreciated. Will keep you posted.

James

[the beater]

Whilst it's permissible to train for an additional type rating during the initial PPL training, you need to ensure that you fulfil the minimum requirements for the initial licence issue on one type. This will be 25hrs dual and 10 hours solo including the qualifying cross country flight. Be careful how you 'mix and match'.

[Dump the pole]

Hi Swiss Cheese,

Following on from The Beater, I think it's best to stick to one type all the way through. There are enough numbers/ limits/ power settings to get your head around without mixing in another type as well.

The R22 will teach you plenty about limited power and low RRPM etc so that when you progress onto something else later you'll have a greater respect for the machine.

Most importantly - enjoy it (but your wallet will take a beating !!)

DTP

[Three Blades]

As Whirlygig said, do not be tempted to pay up front for your lessons.
Whilst the school may offer a discount, do not look at this as any different to making them a commercial loan. Do you know their business plan and accounts well enough to make them a loan ? Probably not. Don't mistake a warm welcome and excellent instrution for excellent business management. There have been too many stories in this forum from people trying to get money back from schools that have closed and I expect that we will see more of the same this year given the climate. (Please note that I do not mean to point these comments at any of the schools at Redhill or anywhere else. This is a general observation.)
Enjoy your PPL training and try to have a flight or two in some of the other helicopters that are at Redhill whilst you can. When I last looked (a year or so ago) there was access to a Gazelle, H500, and Aluette. All great for a taste of life after winning the lottery !

[sloanemallorca]

Out of interest for you most of our PPL (H) training is now done directly on the R44, we have 7 of them, but only 1 R22, which shows how the market is going:

The budget isn't as far apart as you might think.

The R22 will take you more hours to learn to fly, it's not as stable as the R44, nor has the power, speed and range of the R44. Then after doing your PPL (H) you'll want to do the R44 Type Rating. That's another 5 hours flight training (minimum!), ground exam, flight test, exam fees, CAA licencing fees.........

Add it all up and you'll find that starting from scratch in the R44 will only be a few pounds per hour more.

Like "Dump the pole", I don't recommend doing both types during your PPL(H), you have to remember 2 sets of figures, do 2 flight tests and will end up doing more hours in both the R22 and R44 just for the PPL(H) anyway.

sloanemallorca

[DBChopper]

My two penn'orth would be a thumbs-up :ok: for LHC having trained and flown with them for some years. They have a tidy, well-maintained fleet and friendly, experienced instructors who are very safety conscious. There is also a bit of a social scene picking up (curry tonight...).

As far as R22 versus R44, they will train you on either and you will perhaps have to be guided by your budget. I'm told that if you can fly the R22 well then you can fly anything, but there is no doubt it is a more difficult beast to tame than the '44. Only you know what you plan to do once your have your licence and I guess that has to be your deciding factor.

Good luck and enjoy, whatever your decision.
:cool:

[firebird_uk]

I would agree with slonemallorca.

One of the reasons for flying the 44 is because it carries more people. You don't want to be on your 7th or 8th hour of flying it, with 3 loved ones onboard and be confronted with something you're not too familiar with.

In your early hours I'd say it's best to stick with one machine and get to know it well.

FB

[Pandalet]

At least consider what you're planning to do with your PPL when you get it; if you plan to buy yourself a 44, then obviously doing the training in a 44 is the best option. If you want to get your CPL, then the 22 represents the lowest cost way of getting there, and is probably the aircraft you'll end up doing the CPL training in anyway.

To all the folks who say there isn't much difference in cost between doing a PPL in a 44 vs. doing it in a 22 - please post some figures! To my simple mind, that sounds like a sales pitch. My reasoning is as follows, based on prices from a SE England flying school (all prices include VAT):

1 hour R22 training - £292
1 hour R44 training - £424

Lets say the R44 is easier to fly, such that you get through your PPL in minimum hours, for a cost of £19080 (45 hours). Assume the same course in the R22 takes you 55 hours, for a cost of £16060. Thus even with an extra 10 hours of dual in the R22, you're still saving £3k - a saving of roughly 16%. To put this another way, assuming it takes you an extra 10 hours of training to achieve your PPL in an R22, you'll still be able to hire and fly for an extra 13 hours after your training is complete (assuming an SFH rate of £230/hr wet) for the same cost as the basic 45 hours in an R44.

Now sure, the numbers will vary a bit depending on exactly where you go, but unless someone is running a special deal or something, the R44 and R22 prices should scale together.

As I said above, choosing which aircraft to train in should be based on your requirements; if cost is a factor, from a selection of R22, R44, 300C, it pretty much has to be an R22, all things being equal.

[Sliding Doors]

Sloane,

Be fair, in the UK he gap is quite sizeable.

Assuming a 50 hr ppl student and only considering the flying.

R22 p/hr roughly £245+
R44 p/hr roughly £395+

R22 price without vat = £12250
R44 price without vat = £19750

That 'small price difference' is £7500 (or nearly 19 hours of R44 flying for the type rating if you're saying the costs are similar) :hmm: Unless of course 'your training costs R22 v R44 are significantly closer??????

If cost is an issue than an R22 is the cheapest option.

No disputing that the R44 ( particulalry the Raven II) is a far more capable machine than an R22, and IMHO a better SFH option than a B206 (unless you need the extra seat).

An R44 is a good introduction to a bigger machine and hydraulics, and given their similarities not a huge leap from an R22.

Understand where you're coming from Firebird, but didn't YOU learn on an H300 (when R44's were available) before looking at the R44??? Or are we discussing 'hindsight' :p

End of the day preference could well play a part. More than likely cost will be the deciding factor though :uhoh:

Agree Re LHC - Marcus and/or Rob can/would provide you with good training :ok:

SD

[sloanemallorca]

My point was this - starting in the R44 is not as much a gap a people reckon.

The pilot who takes 60 hours in the R22, then goes on for the R44 Type Rating will paid in the region of 18,000 pounds (without VAT) all in.

Normally, the R44 student completes the course in less hours than in the R22.

18,000 pounds will buy you a lot of R44 flying, in fact most of the course. Yes it may cost you a few grand more, but if the R44 PPL (H) cost you 20,000 it is only 2,000 more (or 10%), (and that's without negociating a discount rate.)

The question posted was
"Is it daft to start on the R44 ab initio? Ultimately, I will not be flying commercially, but privately, but have no idea on what type."

Basically the answer is - If your learning to fly privately learning in the R44 not necessarily a bad option.................

[firebird_uk]

SD. I did indeed learn on the 300 (too 'broad' to fly the death egg). The advantage I found in the 300 is learning throttle control and trimming.

Since getting my 44 rating I've never flown the 300 again even in the 3 years between getting my PPL and buying my 44. And that's my point, once you've got your PPL you probably want to fly something bigger, faster and with a better range - the 44.

However, if cost is the absolute decider (and it often is) the 22's the winner.

Given that most PPLs do far less hours once they've got their license than when studying for it, flying a machine that you feel at home with because it's all you've ever flown has a lot to be said for it.

[rattle]

Can I be the one foolish enough to open the Datcon debate? Yes the 44 costs more, and I cannot comment on if you will get your PPL quicker in the 44, but as the Datcon in the 44 is lever up, and the 22 is rotors running, the start up and shut down in a 22 add at least 0.1 per flight. Averaged on every one hour flight (which many lessons won't be), then 10% for start up/shutdown takes the earlier poster's 55 hours to over 60. So the £16060 calculation may be nearer £17800, quite close to the £19080 45 hour figure quoted.

Just something to consider.

[Sliding Doors]

Rattle,

You can open the debate. It's another point for SC to possibly consider.

The very rough estimates I gave were for 50 hrs that were based on Datcons.
Some schools will add a 0.1 charge during training to any R44 flying. The explanation that will be offered is that the FI is paid per flying hour (usually Datcon based) in which case a 1hr lesson thats recorded as 0.9 flying will see the FI paid 0.9 only. That and the FTO's logic that even lever down the R44 is still burning fuel that has to be paid for.

So it may not quite save as much as you'd like/hope :uhoh:

FB,
I was merely teasing you. Sorry Couldn't resist :E

The advantage I found in the 300 is learning throttle control and trimming.

But on your logic those are skills you'd not need as much in an R44, and price must have played a part in your H300 decision too??

once you've got your PPL you probably want to fly something bigger, faster and with a better range

And that was my point. R22 to R44 with their similarities would be a simpler jump than an H300 to R44. SC is yet to finally decide what type he'll SFH in.

Any potential savings re Datcons or any other figure crunching could easily be outweighed by the time it may take getting used to Hyds failures and a shifting CoG - factors that aren't that relevant to an R22, and that are easier to handle IMHO once the basics are mastered.

No harm in trying both R22 and R44 for 30 mins and then making a choice though :ok:

For me cost was always an option :eek:

[Pandalet]

When considering datcon charging, consider what you'll be logging. Different schools do this differently, but what seems to happen is that what you write down in your logbook (and the instructor signs off on) is what you pay for. So if you fly 1hr in an R44, and pay for 0.9, you log 0.9. I'm not saying anything about whether this is legal or good, just that this is what happens (in my limited experience); I'm happy to be corrected by a flood of schools pointing out that they don't do this.

What this means is that the datacon vs engine thing isn't actually very relevant, except that R44 dual will involve you sitting in the aircraft for slightly longer for the same logged hours than R22 dual will. Or, alternately, all the time you've logged in R44s is actual flying time, whereas your actual R22 flying time will be a bit less than your logged time.

Sloane, are you saying that most people who do PPLs with you in an R22 take 60 hours? How many hours does the average R44 PPL student take? Learning on an R44 has many benefits over learning on an R22, but cost just isn't one of them.

Another possibly relevant point is that if you're planning to buy your own, the insurance will probably be substantially more if you have under 100 hours. Thus doing your PPL in an R22 and converting to an R44 later will get you closer to cheaper insurance for the same money. Just a thought.

[R44-pilot]

If you fly 1.0 on the datcon of a R44 you log 1.1 the extra for start up and shut down.

Schools vary on what they do with that point one, but schools usually charge the extra point one. So fly 0.9, pay for 1.0 and log 1.0

I have found some private owners who SFH there R44's out dont charge the 0.1, The couple I get my hours off dont. If I fly 0.9 I pay them for 0.9 but I log 1.0

So you may well start seeing the savings once you have you licence and are self fly hiring out 44's but unless your hour building that 0.1 you gain (if not paying for it) is irrelevant anyway. i.e. you dont need the hours etc...

[puntosaurus]

Now this is sad to admit, but I've timed students starting up and shutting down. The majority of them take at least 0.2 between engine start to skids up plus skids down to engine stop, and a good number take 0.3.

We do the add 0.1 thing on the 44 as is common practice, but that still means that the 44 student is saving between 0.1 and 0.2 per flight. Our average training flight is about an hour, so that's a 15% saving on average.

I disagree that the 44 is easier to learn on. It is undoubtedly more stable in the hover so there are savings there, but it is MUCH more sensitive in pitch so good attitude control is harder to learn IMHO. All in all it's six and two threes, and our students typically complete in 55-60 hours in either type.

So from my perspective the cost difference between learning on the 44 vs 22 is the marginal cost plus VAT, times the number of hours to complete minus five (for the type rating), with 15% off for the datcon arbitrage. Using some typical numbers that gives you (£150*1.15)*(55-5)*0.85 or around £7,500.

Looking at raw numbers for a 22 course coming in at around £15,000, that's a 50% premium for the 44. Now there are many other considerations, but if cost is your overriding concern it's a no brainer.

One of the most significant other considerations is what you intend to do after you qualify, and if it's sightseeing in the 44 with friends and family then IMHO that swings the extra cost. Do you really want to be poling around the sky with your loved ones with less than 100hrs in total and single digits on type ? I doubt it. So in that case the premium is an insurance policy to get you safer on type by the time you qualify. If you're qualifying on a budget then off to hour build for commercial then IMHO the 22 makes more sense.

[helipaul]

Take into consideration the average student take 55 to 65 hours on a R22 plus the 5 hours type conversion and two flight tests there is probably only about 2K difference in price,, always a better and safer aircraft and always best to learn on the aircraft you will fly afterwards. Think in all the students I have taught the longest took 53 Hours on a R44 and that was because he did it over to long a period,, only had 3 students complete PPL on a 22 in 45 hours, SO GO R44 ,, :p but do it at goodwood so i can do it for you:ok: