RAF Memorial Flight?

[Al R]

Well, we've funded old banks so why not old aeroplanes.

Sir Richard Branson, Frederick Forsyth and Robin Gibb want Vulcan to keep flying - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4582809/Sir-Richard-Branson-Frederick-Forsyth-and-Robin-Gibb-want-Vulcan-to-keep-flying.html)

".. today's letter, which is also signed by Iron Maiden singer Bruce Dickinson, Pink Floyd drummer Nick Mason and Marshal of the RAF Lord Craig of Radley, former Chief of Defence Staff, says the MoD should give a home to the Vulcan in an expanded RAF Memorial Flight."

[caped crusader]

I thought the reason that the Vulcan Display Flight was scrapped was because it was costing too much to maintain. The MoD have got even less money to spare now!

[soddim]

If I understand correctly the implications of this proposal, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (BBMF) would expand into the Memorial Flight.

This expansion would be courting disaster for the long term future of BBMF because the bean counters would see an unsustainably large expenditure on these historic aircraft and inevitably the result would be the demise of the whole flight in a few years time.

The Flight currently maintains really important historic aircraft types that greatly contributed to this Country's success in war. The Vulcan, important as she may be to British engineering, is simply not in that category and she is disproportionately expensive to home and maintain compared to the Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster.

Although I understand the sentiment I am afraid of the consequences if these retired dignatories have their way.

[Archimedes]

Admirable sentiment, but I agree with Soddim. Send the costs of the (BB)MF through the roof and watch it be culled...

Instead of buying the next limited edition Ferrari to appear, couldn't Nick Mason donate the £250K + he'd spend on that to fund the Vulcan?

Or perhaps he and Dave Gilmour (who is keen on things aeronautical, IIRC) could club together and buy the aircraft - it's not as if they'd be casting about for loose change down the back of the sofa to fund the aircraft for a year, after all...

[Pontius Navigator]

While maintenace was the resaon for scraping the Vulcan display flight, it was the crippling cost of a major for an individual aircraft at, IIRC, £1m that sealed its fate.

I was also an increasing diversion of resources at Waddo as the E3 was working up. Had it not been grounded when it was it would have been grounded a few years ago as main bases close and base loading increases.

There is propably no room at Coningsby so there would be no question of a single flight base.

[Stretch182]

So move 'em all to Scampton....




Is that my coat over there....

[newt]

Come on Chaps! If the Vulcan is saved then what about all the other equally important types like the Buccaneer, Lightning, F4 etc. The list is never ending and would cost millions! Just like Concorde and all the rest.....stick them in a museum where they can be admired and talked about.


Retiring to the bunker with tin hat and a cup of tea!!

[GeeRam]

While maintenace was the resaon for scraping the Vulcan display flight, it was the crippling cost of a major for an individual aircraft at, IIRC, £1m that sealed its fate.

I also seem to recall the reason of the imminent withdrawl of the Victor's and therefore the last remnents of the V-Force and it's infrastructure within the RAF as another reason why the VDF couldn't continue even if the major had been done.

[Al R]

I wouldn't argue with any of those practical perspectives, but think differently for a second. In principle, would it be good to see a Lightning flying again, to see the Vulcan continuing to fly.. and more importantly, to have in place a process which is forced to address heritage and conservation in the most general sense? Think about the principle, and think ahead.

The current BBMF inventory will not remain flying for ever, and then what? What will the RAF have to remind the nation of the part it has played? Lets not forget either, that BBMF started out as the Historic Aircraft Flight, so proposing this is nothing new anyway (one for the purists!). If it means some kind of PFI, then so be it. Something this long term and important needn't automatically be entrusted to the MoD.

[soddim]

The current BBMF inventory will not remain flying for ever

Why not?

The types currently operated have been frequently resurrected from nothing much more than the manufacturer's plate. They are all constructed in a relatively simple way using basic engineering and readily available materials and technology. Perhaps the Hurricane with some wood and fabric poses the biggest difficulty because these skills are almost dead.

Given the will to keep these prominent types going the cost is well within the realms of purely public subscription. The addition of fuel-hungry relatively modern heavy metal with more expensive technology would raise this cost to the unsustainable.

I congratulate those who got the Vulcan back into the air and I hope they can keep it flying; however, I would not like to see that endeavour jeopardise the future of BBMF as we know and love it.

[dakkg651]

What Al R should have said is:-

The current BBMF inventory will not remain flying for ever if the Vulcan was part of it.

A better idea would be to fund this years display costs out of confiscated banker's bonuses.

[NutLoose]

Bring back the Wessex :ok::ok::ok:



There I said it :p

[WASALOADIE]

Bring back the Wessex. Its been in many a conflict and served considerable longer than many of those of the historic flights.

[ADVOCATE_56]

""A better idea would be to fund this year's display costs out of confiscated banker's bonuses.""

Except that HMG has decided that as the bonuses are "contractual" they cannot prevent the payment of these rewards for failure. Funnily I always thought that a bonus was dependent upon satisfactory performance and proportional to the profit generated, but hey, thats probaly why I never went into the City.

FWIW I think that there is merit, if the country could afford it, in absorbing the Vulcan into an enhanced RAF Memorial Flight. It is significantly popular with the public; could be seen as a fitting airborne memorial to everyone who served in the Falklands campaign; and it looks as if the bulk of the necessary engineering work has been done to keep it going for a few years, so why not? The flip side of course is that the country cannot afford it - largely due to the cost of Bankers' foul-ups.

[soddim]

If we want a memorial to the Falklands campaign a Sea Harrier would be more appropriate.

[ADVOCATE_56]

Yes, I quite agree - except they have already gone to the scrapyard and the apparent ambition was to find a way of keeping the Vulcan flying now that it has been restored.

[Co-Captain]

I think the RAF is already doing a stirling job in keeping classics in the air...

VC10, Tri*, C-130K, Dominie, Tornado to name just a few :}

[NutLoose]

The way the funding is going these days, its just a matter of time before the only things left to deploy to the Sandpit will be the BBMF.......

[Al R]

Soddim,

My eldest saw the Vulcan recently and simply couldn't comprehend the power and presence of the thing - we look at it in a different context to those who follow us.

I wouldn't know how long the Lancaster for instance, will stay flying, and I agree - no one would want to see an either/or scenario. But it'd be a crying shame if we couldn't plan ahead and preserve the heritage of not the RAF but the country, for the generations who follow.

[GeeRam]

I wouldn't know how long the Lancaster for instance, will stay flying

From dimming memory cells, IIRC, after '474 was resparred by BAe some years ago, she was effectively lifed for another 50+ years, and according to BBMF at the time, the most likely scenario for determining how long they will be able to continue flying would be dependent on the availability of 100LL.
Which is just now starting to become an issue as the regulators are now beinging to look to removing the need for it for GA stuff on enviromental grounds.

[soddim]

Al R, I think we agree the desirability of keeping the Vulcan and I am frequently dismayed that our Nation seems so eager to shed our past and forget our traditions.

Our children will not only be paying the price of this profligate government for years to come but will also have to rely on pictures of our history.

[Bismark]

Yes, I quite agree - except they have already gone to the scrapyard

Art Nalls is flying a Sea Harrier in the US:

Nalls Aviation - Home of the Sea Harrier (http://www.nallsaviation.com/index.html)
...and there are a load in the hangar at Shawbury.

[Old Ned]

The Vulcan has been brought back to the sky, where she belonged, and for a few months she was a majestic sight in the air.

BUT - there is no room for sentiment where MoD cash is concerned. The Vulcan to the Air campaign was run by enthusiastic amateurs and got (at least after 2 or 3 attempts) several million from the Lottery. I am an old Vulcan man myself and wish the aircraft could be saved for the nation, but it is a very expensive aircraft to keep airworthy. Although many OEM companies (or their successors) gave an enormous amount of time and support to the venture, it was always going to end like this sooner or later.

If 558 joins an RAF Memorial Flight, what will be the next aircraft that will be sentimentally praised and pushed for inclusion? IMHO the Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane are the only "veteran" aircraft that should be retained in flying condition. The Dakota is fine, but should be the first to go if (or when) funding gets tight. There is certainly no sentiment in the minds of the MoD nerds who will make the decision on the future of the BBMF.

As I understand it, there is a Vulcan Educational Trust (or some such) which was the reason for the Lottery grant. If the aircraft is no longer to be flown then will the Lottery want a refund? I wonder what the conditions of the Lottery funding were?

Pip pip

ON

[Mick Strigg]

I understand that the Spit, 'cane & Lanc are a memorial to all those that lost their life in WWII, but how would a Vulcan act as a memorial? It was only used in anger once and no one lost their life in that sortie!

[yakhunter]

Given the choice, I would rather see an EE lightning, a Buc and maybe a javelin instead.

I would assume all these together would cost less that the Vulcan.

Just my view !

[exscribbler]

I'm as much a fan of the mighty Vulcan as the next man but what do you think of this for an idea?

I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.

Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!

[QuestorPhil]

Sorry Exscribbler, but if you think the Halifax at Elvington would fly, then so would pigs!

Its a fine tribute to the men who flew the aircraft, but its also cobbled together from genuine sections of Halifax, the wings of a Hastings, and light alloy sections in between.

QP

[Evalu8ter]

"The Dakota is fine, but should be the first to go if (or when) funding gets tight"
Err, no. The Dakota may not have the glamour of the "punchy" types but serves not only as an essential stepping stone to the Lanc, but also commemorates the role the AT performed in WW2 (Overlord, Market Garden, Varsity, Far East) and afterwards (Berlin Airlift). After all, Dakota crews won more VCs than fighter command.... Flog a MkXIX Spitfire first (after all, they're only recce birds) or the Mk IX.

Vulcan is a wonderfully visceral experience, as is the Lightning, but neither have a place in the Historic Flight due to complexity, cost and (relative) lack of combat heritage. A Tornado GR4, Jag or GR9 would have a far more compelling case, as would the Wessex (which must have flown the most operational sorties of any RAF ac since WW2), Chinook or Puma. Now a Mosquito would fit the bill nicely, flog a couple of Spits and make it happen!

[Linedog]

Keeping a Tornado flying?
Now that would be a novelty.:oh:

[Bismark]

I think consideration needs to go to other service historic collections like:

Royal Navy Historic Flight

Royal Navy Historic Flight - Home Pages (http://www.royalnavyhistoricflight.org.uk/home/)

and the AAC Historic Flight

Both of which (unlike BBMF) rely on public donation to keep their few aircraft flying (Swordfish, Sea Fury etc). The drain the Vulcan to the Air placed on benefactors must bring into question its value for money - great though it was to see flying, what an achievement!

[Avitor]

BBMF commemorates WW2.
The costs of adding Cold War birds to that outweigh the benefits, in my humble opinion.

[Al R]

Avitor,

To us - maybe, but what about future generations?

We think of the Cold War in visceral terms, but just as the decision to save HMS Victory was made after it had seen just 40 years service because they understood what it meant looking ahead, so too must we look on saving The Vulcan, and others, from the perspective of the future and not the present.

And if that means addressing huge problems in order to achieve that, then so be it.

[NutLoose]

exscribblerI'm as much a fan of the mighty Vulcan as the next man but what do you think of this for an idea?

I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.

Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!


Just jane was looked at and rumours were abound as to getting her Airborne for the New Dambusters movie, suffice to say they were rumours, British Aerospace did do a feasibility study on her but legislation costs etc scuppered that, she has 700 hrs remaining on her Spars...

Evalu8ter". Flog a MkXIX Spitfire first (after all, they're only recce birds)."


May only be recce but at least one had a confirmed kill !:ok:

[Evalu8ter]

"May only be recce but at least one had a confirmed kill ! "

By that standard we should have kept a certain RAFG F-4 then.....:}

[NutLoose]

But the Phantom was armed, the 19 wasn't and did not carry guns.

[GeeRam]

Now a Mosquito would fit the bill nicely, flog a couple of Spits and make it happen!

So very sad that BBMF came oh so so close to having a Mossie in the fleet :(

Who knows, if BAe had made the decision a year ealier to donate it to BBMF, maybe RR299 and two crew might still be with us.....

And sadly the best candiate for a return to the air of a UK Mossie was the one that the RAFM gave to the Norweigans :ugh:

[Blacksheep]

the Vulcan Display Flight was scrapped was because it was costing too much to maintain.Which is precisely why the VTS project was doomed from the start.

Incidentally, it is as well to remember The BBMF isn't just a bunch of pretty aeroplanes with which to decorate air shows. It is a war memorial; a tribute to the tens of thousands of RAF aircrew who made the ultimate sacrifice flying these and other machines just like them.


HMS Whimbrel (http://www.hmswhimbrel.org/), last surviving escort of The Battle of the Atlantic, won't be making its way back to Liverpool to become a memorial unless they can raise £2m because, since the trust had a "commercial" use for it that didn't involve scrapping the ship, the Egyptian Government has now revalued the ship from its scrap value of £250k to £1m. Now that would be money well spent...

[exscribbler]

Blacksheep - you're off-thread but what the heck.

HMS Whimbrel (currently the Egyptian TARIQ) is the only surviving example of the RN's Black Swan class frigate which did so much to defend Atlantic convoys from the U-boats. Furthermore she could also become a lasting memorial to Captain FJ Walker CB DSO** RN and his ship STARLING of the same class. Another sister, MAGPIE, was once commanded by the Duke of Edinburgh.

Let us not forget either the Egyptian ship EL FATAH, the former HMS Zenith, a last example of a war-built classic RN destroyer which would serve well as a memorial to the men of the Russian convoys.

[Jig Peter]

High - very, very high - on the list of post-WW2 aircraft that deserve preservation and inclusion in Historic Flights should surely be Mr. Petter's magnificent Canberra - preferably a B.15 - which kept a lot going at "the sharp end" after the 1957 "Sandys Storm" till the Buccaneer arrived, and in PR form stayed operational until not that long ago. Now THERE WAS an Aeroplane of many talents and delightful to drive!!!
PS - Quoi, biased, moi ?
:8

[danieloakworth]

I loved seeing the Vulcan again last year, but if they can't self fund we should just accept it as one last glorious indian summer.