St Athan Grob Aircraft Crash In Wales

[rolling20]

Thread started on Private Flying. Just wondering if they are from UWAS? That area was often used out of St Athan, or are they at Rhoose at the moment, due to resurfacing? Thoughts with those involved.

BBC NEWS | Wales | Two light aircraft crash in Wales (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

[GalleyTeapot]

Being reported as Military on BBC website

BBC NEWS | Wales | Light aircraft in mid-air crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

"Gareth Maund, landlord of the Prince of Wales pub added: "Two light aircraft military have collided over the Kenfig area."


"A local councillor Jeff Tildesley said the wreckage is in the sand dunes at Mawdlam.
He said: "I am able to see some evidence of the aeroplane wreckage surrounded by police vehicles, we have heard the pilot jumped out. "We are hearing there is one fatality but that is unconfirmed, I am only able to see the wreckage of one plane."

[cazatou]

BBC ceefax report that MOD confirm there are casualties - no other details.

Let us hope that " casualties" does not translate into "fatalities".

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Here's hoping, thoughts with UWAS and the AEF down there.

[Icare9]

Regretfully, this is in the BBC report:
Quote:
"We saw the smoke coming from the dunes."
He and a friend ran over, where other people had already reached the scene.
He said they found a body.
"Somebody said there was a second plane and we had seen the debris so we ran, hoping we could do something," he said.
He said there was another body there.
They were later told the dead people had been accompanied by others, he said. unquote.

[airborne_artist]

Another report from a newspaper for Wales:

WalesOnline - News - Wales News - Four feared dead in South Wales plane crash (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/02/11/two-planes-crash-in-south-wales-91466-22904998/)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

BBC eyewitnesses reporting fatalities and showing what looks to be a photo of the wreckage of a tutor. Bugger.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its definitely one Tutor and definitely fatal. Whether its two Tutors I don't know.

Would it be AEF or UAS operations today?

WWW

[airborne_artist]

The credible witness interviewed by the BBC and shown on the embedded video on the BBCi news page suggests that the two aircraft were on very different headings. She mentions seeing the first passing left to right, and then seeing the second, and expecting to see them pass each other with enough vertical clearance (my words), but they collided.

[NutLoose]

How about us all forget the in house bickering and just remember that possibly four poor souls that have lost their lives in this tragic accident.

My Sincere and Heartfelt Condolencies to those and to all of their families and loved ones.:(

[blue up]

There is a private strip just south of Margam Park, a km or less north of the site. Frequently there are AEF/VGS flights passing Nash point east/west through the Kenfig area and the Margam strip is orientated north/south.

2nd aircraft MAY not be AEF.

[phantomlurker]

but a good photo (if it's your kind of thing)

'RAF trainees' killed in crash | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2226947.ece)
Condolences

[Dusty_B]

No-one has yet confirmed whether the aircraft was on an AEF or UAS sortie. Let's make sure we're careful what 'lingo' we use, someone (press) could use it as a quote.

[KarlADrage]

Supposed identities of both aircraft have already appeared on several Yahoo groups and websites.

A sad day.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

BBC now confirming 4 fatalities. Very very sad.

BBC News: Four die in mid-air plane crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

[Green Flash]

BBC R5 have just interviewed Gp Capt Andy Naismith. He (obviously) couldn't give many details but confirmed they were Grobs from St Athan.

Today has just become very bad. Condolances to all.

[Ivor Fynn]

Bugger,

Condolences to all!:(:(:(

I was looking forward to my AEF flying tomorrow until now:(:(

Ivor

[ditchvisitor]

Sad news indeed :( RIP Fellas

[BBMFPRO]

Desperately sad news...RIP you guys

[Davetron]

Deepest condolences to the families. What a shame. Rest in peace.

[Postman Plod]

Condolencies to all those involved. A sad day for the organisation and the RAF.

BBC NEWS | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The bbc is saying both aircraft were AEF. Condolences, all the worse if there were kids involved.

[Guzlin Adnams]

What a horrible day. God bless all of affected by this awful tragedy.
RIP

[SRENNAPS]

This crash has happened literally within a 15 minute walk of our village. The only way to describe it is that we are all in a state of total shock.

I have no words to describe how I feel.

All of our thoughts go out to the families involved.

[dave_perry]

Posts on here say that these aircraft were from UWAS, however BBC says they were from Cranwell. Can anyone confirm because I have a friend who's on UWAS who fly frequently?!

Dave

[PhoenixDaCat]

I believe that they belong to Cranwell, and are detached to AEFs and UASs

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Dave,

The a/c are owned centrally by cranwell, but based elsewhere.

[airborne_artist]

To be entirely accurate, the aircraft are owned by VT Aerospace, and the RAF pays for them on a PFI scheme. They have civil registrations. Another forum was listing two regs alleged to be involved.

AEFs and UASs share the aircraft, normally, at each location. At Benson, for example, 6AEF and Oxford UAS use the same airframes.

[Craven Moorhed]

RIP all....

[PhoenixDaCat]

BBC NEWS | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

"Two RAF trainers and two cadets have been killed in a mid-air crash between two light aircraft near the south Wales coast.

They died near the seaside resort of Porthcawl at around 1100 GMT. Their identities have not been revealed.

The wreckage was spread over about half a mile, with some in sand dunes near Kenfig National Nature Reserve.

The Grob planes were involved in "air experience" flights from RAF St Athan with a training school.

Two separate inquiries are under way into the crash.

"Four members of the RAF family have tragically lost their lives following an accident which took place near Porthcawl just before lunchtime today. Those who died were two members of the RAF and two Air Training Corps cadets. "
"

As someone involved with the ACO, I'm numbed.

[Capt H Peacock]

How very sad that some young people, who were probably making that inspiring journey we all once made, have been taken from us so soon.

Solemn thoughts:(

[BUPA]

Two ATC cadets by all accounts. Very sad, very sad indeed.


Will the Tutor fleet be grounded/AEF suspended, or is it too early for this type of speculation?

R.I.P

[Cat5 in the Hat]

R.I.P All.

[Silent Aviator]

Condolences to the families:
RIP guys

[autothrottle]

Very very sad . RIP.

[romeo bravo]

A very sad day for the RAF and the ACO.

The only glimmer of light from such a tragedy is that they were doing what they enjoyed. Cadets only want to fly; as a staff member of the ACO, it's a joy to see the face of an air cadet who has just been up for the first time or done aeros.

RIP guys.

[233SQN]

As a VR(T) officer I have organised countless AEF trips for cadets... it remains the highlight of their time with the ACO.

AEF pilots do a fantastic job giving these youngsters an experience they'll never forget. This is a really sad loss, two young cadets who were proof that not all kids are hoodies causing trouble, and two pilots who gave up lots of their time especially at weekend to provide us with flying.

I hope sensibilities prevail and there are no knee jerk reactions.

[Green Flash]

it bad enough losing fellow aviators but Air Cadets, oh bloody hell, that's awefull. Absolutly guted. feel sick now ths isnt good day ,

[JAVELINBOY]

BBC Wales News reporting that two teenage girls are among the fatalities and they are thought to be related, an even sadder slant to this incident
condolences to all of the families concerned

[Siforest65]

My son is due his first flight any time with the Air Cadets. This news is really sad and condolences to all those involved.

[matt_hooks]

Si, I hope you won't let this sad accident put him (or indeed you) off. As said above, the vast majority of cadets join up because flying is what they want to do, and it is such a fantastic, life changing experience. My heart goes out to the families, blood and extended, who will be feeling the aftermath of this accident keenly.

They shall not grow old, as those who are left grow old....

[Siforest65]

Matt, it certainly won't put me or him off. As in all these things there will probably never be a safer time to undertake all such activities.

[matt_hooks]

I'm glad to hear that Si. The aef's have an excellent record in terms of safety. In fact, this is the first accident involving their planes that I've heard of.

I flew with 5AEF back in the days when they had the Chipmunk, and also the Bulldog, and those experiences I will always treasure.

To the four members of the cadet extended family that passed today, may your days be forever filled with joy and flying!

[deltahotel]

Bugger. AEF has introduced so many to aviation - me in the back of a chippy at newton 1970-something for one. Now I do the same for the keen young ones in east mids (poss yrs, Si) and the pleasure and satisfaction of watching a nervous/scared first timer do the wide eyed grin is hard to describe.

Condolences to all.

DH

[SW1]

Channel 4 claim one pilot ejected. Still 4 confirmed fatalities..

God be with you for all involved

["Taylor"]

I too live not far from the site and was stunned when i heard the news today. I did a very simular flight along the same route not too long ago. Thoughts go out to all those involved and affected by this tragedy.

[craigm]

RIP

From a Dad whose daughter hopes to be a doctor in the RAF, condolences to all.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

A very sad day for the Royal Air Force and for the Air Training Corps. RIP, with heartfelt condolences to all the families involved.

[ComJam]

Very sad day. I was involved with the Air Cadets for a number of years, the AEF guys do a fantastic job introducing youngsters to our profession.

I shall raise a glass or two tonight.

RIP...Venture, Adventure

Comjam ("Venture 8" many moons ago)

[6foottanker]

Ex UWAS, my thoughts go to all the staff, studes and cadets down that part of the world

[Mikebert4]

All I can do is offer my condolences to the family of the Cadets and Instructors involved.

My most fond memories of the ATC were the Air Experience Flights, I was lucky and managed to get a fair few flights. I wouldn't be into flying today if it weren't for the ATC and the opportunities they provide. I felt genuinely sad when I found out earlier today, never mind my anger at people stating speculation as fact before even the next-of-kin have been informed.

However, not is not the time to pick a fight. All my thoughts go to the families.

[cazatou]

I was an ATC Cadet from 1961 - 1965 after which I joined the RAF as an Officer Cadet at 18 and became a Pilot. My Father was Chairman of the ATC Sqn Committee and my Mother ran the "Canteen". My youngest Brother worked his way up the ranks to CWO and then obtained a VR/T Commission. I was ACLO at Abingdon for 2 years and at Manby for 3 years - I take great exception to the suggestion that I show a lack of respect and understanding of the Cadet Organisation at this tragic time.

The BOI will be on its way to investigate this tragedy and it is incumbent on us all to let the BOI carry out its investigation without outside interference or hindrence. The last thing that is needed at this time is another "Walter" - although it appears that some "explanations" are already being aired. The Press will carry Articles exposing shortcomings in AEF standards of Maintenance and Airmanship; calling for the disbandment of the Air Cadet Organisation as well as the ACF, Sea cadets, RM Cadets and anything else they can call to mind.

This is a sad day for all of us - but let us not forget that those who tragically lost their lives did so doing what they yearned to do. It is no consolation - but it may at least ease the pain.

[SRENNAPS]

I hope to god that I don’t offend anybody by this, but at the earliest opportunity me and my wife are going to walk up to the crash site and leave some flowers.

If anybody would like us to leave a personal message please me PM me and I will do all I can to accommodate your wishes.

[Stretch182]

Ex air cadet & ex VR(T) - taken many, many cdts to the AEF over the years and seen the smiles and heard them telling their mates all about it on the way home...
Sincere condolences to the families of all involved and thoughts & prayers for those who have lost their lives.

RIP

[Culio]

I am a current air cadet and I can't tell you how shocking and upsetting this is.

I've been in contact with a few fellow cadet NCO's and all are equally stunned. The safety instruction video they always show you before flying is always taken a bit light-heatedly, I even admit to laughing at the terrible acting. But it has now made me realise how important that video is.

I will never laugh at it again.

RIP cadets, Venture Adventure.

[INDYMAN]

Ex ATC, Gliding and AEF 'staff cadet' ... made it Group 1 Phase1.

My fondest memories are those easy days with no worries and a Chippy flight!

RIP all

My thoughts go to the families of all involved.

:(

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Sincere and deepest condolences to the families of those involved - a very, very sad day. RIP.

WJMcP

[ACW599]

>Ex UWAS, my thoughts go to all the staff, studes and cadets down that part of the world<

Also ex-UWAS and current VGS; my most sincere sympathy and condolences to the families and friends of all concerned.

[flipster]

A very sad day for so many. You are in our thoughts.

RIP and God Bless

flipster

It will be of little consolation to the families right now but they died doing something they loved, a thought that may eventually bring a crumb of comfort.

[plasticAF]

As with us all my thoughts go to ALL the families involved as well as the people dealing with the aftermath of this tragedy.
As a VR(T) sqn cmdr with cdts due to fly on sunday. I have no worries about letting the cdts go up.
I'd go so far as to let my 10yr old daughter go up first with me following close second to prove to any concerned parents that it's safe.
As far as anything can be safe.
Having driven round the Bradford ringroad to get to work; I'd take a Tutor flight anyday!

May their souls rest in peace.

plastic

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Ex 1 AEF, and my thoughts are with you all.

likewise Srennaps, I'll be there if I'm able. If not I may PM you.

[Dogdaze]

Let us remember the Cadets, their friends in the Corps and their Squadron who now have to come to terms with their sad loss.

Let us remember the AEF Instructors who gave their time, skill and ultimately their life serving in the Air Cadet Organisation.

Let us not forget all their families and friends at this difficult time.

My sincere condolences. It is a very sad day for the Air Training Corps family and parent Service.

[blandford50]

This is sad news indeed. The RAF is a big family, and a very close one. When my daughter walked in through THAT DOOR at RAFC Cranwell after her graduation parade, I had an overwhelming feeling that she had left my family... and joined another one, and I didn't mind a bit, because I know what a good family it is. They will feel this loss- as they do them all- very deeply. And I know none who would be elsewhere or be doing anything different. RIP.
B50.

[Squirrel 41]

Bugger. Double Bugger.

RIP All

S41

[microlight AV8R]

It's just not fair

R.I.P. all


Five years away from it all and I feel absolutely numb, can't find words to do their memories justice


[ ex VR(T) ]

[tezzer]

As an ex ATC cadet who enjoyed numerous trips in Chippy's, I am deeply saddened.

Seems there is dust in the air in Mexico City tonight, and have got some in my eyes.

Very, very sad news.

[rej]

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those involved.

As a father of a cadet and a serving member of the RAF, I know too well how much pride and enjoyment the Air Training Corps brings to the youngsters involved.

My thoughts are with you; please try and seek some comfort in the sincere thoughts that we all have for you at this time.

RIP

[bluesilk]

It is a very long time indeed since I was involved with the Cadets but I am saddened beyond belief at this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers are with those left behind and for those tragically killed may you rest in peace.

[old-timer]

What a sad sad day, deepest respects to all.


I loved my time flying with 5 AEF in the 70's & wouldn't have missed it for the world but words cannot ease the sadness of today.

PER ARDUA AD ASTRA

[barnstormer1968]

It is a long time since I left the ATC as a CWO, but seeing Air Cadets "bag packing" in supermarkets recently, and reading the gliding thread has brought back many fond memories of my younger life. I think the Air training Corps offers the younger generation the perfect vehicle to become model citizens, whatever career they choose in life.

A very sad loss for all involved, and my heart goes out to all the families. My heart totally sank when I heard this news.

[the_bone]

Very sad news, worst fears confirmed.
Memories of my time in the ACO and Tutor experiences are very fond indeed, contrary to popular belief, the force looks very fondly upon the ACO, the thoughts of the Merlin fleet are with you all.

RIP

[Tonkenna]

A terribly sad day; Mrs T and I send our deepest condolences to all touched by this tragedy... spent many a happy hour in the Tutor as a UAS QFI helping out with the AEF and seeing the happy faces of cadets... this is so so sad!

Tonks

[side salad]

RIP.

Tragic, upsetting, I feel for their families tonight.

Young people, the future of our country, doing what they loved.

We will remember them.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My AEF memories in a Chipmunk are amongst the most important I have of my youth. I went on to become a VGS instructor on the Vigilant providing AEF which I enormously enjoyed and which founded my career.

A tragedy of this order. The mind repels it. Just tragic.

RIP


WWW :(

[Synthetic]

Too sad. Commiserations to all relatives and friends.

[scopesie]

On this of all days, I happened to meet up with a former Squadron mate who said 'You'll never guess, but I took your son flying last week', and so he had, on an AEF trip in a Tutor at Cranwell. So, not just through work (but there, as well, as it happens), I have some idea of the true worth of the AEF system. It goes way, way, beyond anything you can measure in a Log Book, an Auth Sheet or a balance sheet.

Whist it might mean little, my thoughts are with all those affected by this tragic event.

And, if you read this, son, yes I have always said I would most likely never post on here. Well, just take a look at the rest of this thread, hear what others are trying to put into words and, for as long as it is what you want to do, keep on flying.

Per Ardua...

Scopesie.

[A643]

As someone who is a CGI for the VGS at St Athan, my deepest condolences go out to everybody who this has touched.

It is a sad day for the RAF, ATC and St Athan.

[SuctionBoost]

I also have fond memories as an Air Cadet in the back of a chippy during the early 70’s. This is a very sad event. Condolences to all concerned.

[Jackonicko]

Condolences to all, of course. To our fellow aviators who were flying the aircraft, and to the two young ladies who might have joined us, had fate been kinder.

Allow this journo (and aviator) to pre-empt the proper processes to make this observation.

Nothing worthwhile is ever 100%, guaranteed risk free, but please let's not allow ourselves to overreact to this.

Air Cadet air experience flying has had a magnificent safety record, and has given life experiences to thousands, and the value of those experiences can never be properly measured.

Of course we must strive to make our children as safe as possible, but surely not to the extent that their lives and experiences are sanitised and 'toned down'.

For the families, we all understand that nothing is worth the loss of their loved ones, and I hope that I don't sound callous. This is, of course, a tragedy, and I weep with the rest.

[brit bus driver]

It was the AEF at Cambridge and the mighty Chipmunk that first sparked my desire to enter this world of aviation many moons ago, as a keen CCF cadet, and to those involved I shall be eternally grateful, for they introduced me to the finest profession known to man (imho). To hear of the loss of an aircraft and its crew is always shocking and numbing, but these circumstances make it so much more poignant.

I was out today with my youngest lad and could hear the buzz of the Tutors from Benson enjoying an 8/8 blue day and, as a proud father, I cannot help but harbour the hope that he might be daft enough t o follow his dad's footsteps. Today's news does not deter me, nor will it others, as has been alluded to on here.

My brother lives 8 miles from the site. I shall be sure to pay my respects when we are next there. My thoughts and condolences to all the families. Per ardua ad astra.

[Thelma Viaduct]

RIP Cadets & Pilots.

[ProcATCO]

I am an ex-Nimrod AEOp, ex-Adult Warrant Officer in the ATC and current Air Traffic Control Officer.

This day will go down as one of the saddest of my life with these two Cadets and their Instructors killed. My deepest condolences to all the families involved.

Unfortunately I had early knowledge of the event as I was working as an Air Ground Operator at a nearby airport, and was kept busy for a while due to our proximity.

Per Ardua Ad Astra, and Rest In Peace

:(

[ZBunY]

As a current AEF pilot who has flown many sorties with Air Cadets, my heart goes out to all of the families today. Flying with cadets is the most rewarding flying I have been fortunate to do in the twenty years since I had my first flight in a Chippy... today is a very sad day.

[Hummingfrog]

As another AEF pilot I was stunned to hear the news this morning that there had been a collision involving AEF aircraft. I can’t put into words what the poor families must be going through and my deepest sympathies are with them.

AEF’s provide an avenue for young people to experience what a lot of us take for granted and that is the thrill of being airborne. I admire the nervous first time flyer, who sometimes look terrified yet has the guts to get into a small aircraft, and enjoy showing him/her the joy of flying.

The cadets are a pleasure to take flying as they are so keen so to lose one's life this way is so tragic.

My thoughts are with the families of the 2 cadets and my 2 fellow AEF pilots who tragically lost their lives today.

HF

[propulike]

What a terrible event. The loss of 2 young and trusting souls along with their pilots on what should have been an inspiring flight. I find myself at a loss for the appropriate words that I need to offer comfort to those left behind and remembrance for those no longer with us.

God bless.

[Nov71]

Appreciation of the 4 lives lost and condolences to their family, relatives, friends and colleagues.
Nov79, ex-UWAS & ATC

[Safeware]

A sad, sad day. I have happy memories of days on AEFs being flown in Chippies.

My condolences to all 4 families.

Venture Adventure, Per Ardua Ad Astra

sw

[nurjio]

I, too, was inspired by my AEF. I am deeply, deeply saddened to hear the news of this terrible loss. Rest in Beautiful Peace.

[ChecklistPlease]

My Heart goes out to all the Families and Friends Concerned with yesterdays Tragic Incident. Rest In Peace

[TMJ]

I was on my BGT at 618 VGS when the news of the Wessex crash that killed the cdts on board came through; having been at Valleya few weeks previously and only having missed a trip on a Wessex due to poor weather, a shiver went through me. Didn't stop me going solo, or taking up as many AEF slots as I gcould thereafter, or getting the odd UAS flight despite being sponsored as an Engineer.

And still, when I see this sort of thing I get the shiver and think there but for the grace of God...

RIP all concerned.

[JEM60]

God moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform. But why like this!!!. Sorry, just very sad.

[ajl146]

A terrible event. I hope there shall be no kneejerk reactions to a fantastically inspiring organisation which provides so much joy to so many.

RIP from an ex-Tutor flyer.

[Basil]

Flew Chips for 5 AEF Cambs in the early seventies.
I hope there will be a considered and measured response to this shocking accident.

[Jerry Can]

Very sad news. Condolences to all concerned and RIP guys.

[Hot 'n' High]

Another sad day in Military aviation – a day where words are simply inadequate! Heartfelt condolences to all.

[BounceBounceLand]

Thankfully AEF has not been suspended. Although there is a somber atmosphere and everyone is in shock, the aircraft are allowed tofly and more Cadets will sample the joys of aviation. This started my facination with aviation and I owe the Air Cadets and RAF a lot as they helped to get me where I am.

A terrible accident.

My heart goes out to the friends and families of both the Pilots and Cadets alike, this is a shock to the RAF family, the Aviation family and indeed the UK.

Rest in Peace, our thoughts are with you all

[Geehovah]

As another military aviator who began my flying career at the AEF at Church Fenton I can only add my condolences. Tragic news and words can't express the sadness. They all died doing something they enjoyed; a small comfort. RIP

[olddog]

As an ex ATC cadet who went on to be a UAS QFI and AEF pilot during a long and happy RAF Career and is now a CI with my local ATC Sqn I add my condolences to the families who lost loved ones yesterday and my thoughts are also with those at St Athan and The cadet's ATC Sqn who will also be feeling a terrible sense of loss. The ATC is a wonderful organisation that brings out the best in young people and the AEFs are an essential feature of the organisation. I have memories spread over almost 50 years, from being the cadet in the back of a Chipmunk to watching the beaming smile on a cadets face at the end of their first flight. I have also been closely involved in the aftermath of a flying accident, to those who have hard days ahead of them I say "Heads up - things will get better" A truly sad day.

[Bat Eared Armourer]

This news rocked me to the core, last night four beds were empty, beds that should have been filled with happy memories of a days flying.

As an Ex RAF Engineer of 20 years, wife of an AEF pilot and mother of three children when my aircraft mad four year old expresses his desire to join up and fly I will continue to encourage him in his dreams.

God Bless and Rest in Peace

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Cadets named as Nikkita Marie Walters, 13, and Katie-Jo Davies, 14. Pilots named as Hylton Price from Bridgend and Andrew Marsh from Vale of Glamorgan.

RIP and God Speed.

[ditchvisitor]

They have just named the pilots :( RIP Marshy, wont forget the laughs on IOT fella.

[FCWhippingBoy]

I can remember many a happy day from my childhood spent at RAF Finningley and RAF Leeming waiting for my AEF slot, and as a current VGS pilot, there is nothing more rewarding that seeing the look on a cadet's face after their first experience flight.

I can only express my shock at this sad loss.

RIP.

[1.3VStall]

I feel even more sad now that the names have been posted I have known one of the pilots for over 30 years.

When I first pulled on the hairy blue uniform of an ATC cadet well over 40 years ago I knew exactly what I wanted to pursue as a career. After nearly 28 years in RAF uniform I left to pursue a second career in the civil sector. Aviation is in my blood and I could not contemplate working in another industry.

My Dad was an AEF pilot and CO of my ATC Sqn. He was killed in a Chipmunk crash many years ago, but fortunately his passenger survived.

Nevertheless, I still remember my elder boy putting on his ATC uniform for the first time and his beaming face when he came home after his first trip in a Tutor. So the aviation theme continues in the family.

My heartfelt condolences go out to the bereaved families and the friends and colleagues of the deceased. My thoughts are with you at this awful time.

RIP

[flower]

As A CI with No 1 Welsh Wing I found out very quickly after the event yesterday that we had lost 2 of our cadets and 2 of of our AEF instructors. To say it has shaken me to the core is an understatement. ( I should add not my squadron but one of our Wings squadrons however our CO went to help deal with the aftermath) I have been lucky to escort the cadets flying on occasions both to AEF and VGS and as you say the wide beams on the cadets faces after their flight is a joy to behold especially as you escort them from the aircraft and ask them how the flight was, I don't think we ever get less than an awesome.

Temporarily here at No 1 Welsh Wing flying is suspended I hope it will be very temporary but we have a lot of work to do now reassuring both the cadets and parents about flying. I have a class this weekend for our intake on Airmanship usually one of the favoured subjects, I guess there will be some hard questions to answer :sad:

My thoughts are with everyone involved in this utter tragedy

[Tigger_Too]

Damn. Would anyone know whether it was Hylton Price, ex F4, GR1 and Saudi Project Office?

[UAV689]

Such an awful event. May you all rest in peace, and as a very small consolation to the family of cadets and instructors they left us whilst doing something they loved.

AEF flying without doubt shaped my life. I vivdly remember my first flight to this day. Later went on to join a UAS and the best time of my life so far was flying grobs over the country side, and that has led me to pursue a commercial license.

Lets please not have any knee jerk reactions and stop youngsters enjoying this incredible opportunity that we are able to offer them, and hopefully the AEF flights will be able to come out of this stronger than ever before.

UAV689.

[NutLoose]

Soo young :sad:

BBC NEWS | Wales | Grief as cousins die in air crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7885595.stm?lss)

[1.3VStall]

TT - there'll only ever be one Hylton Price.

[Boxer42]

This is just so sad. I'm a CI on my sons ATC squadron and am responsible for arranging the AEF/AEG flying for the unit. I have accompanied the cadets on many occassions and have been lucky enough to fly in both the Tutor and Vigilant.

Whilst that opportunity is rewarding, the real reward comes form seeing the faces of the cadets on their return from a flight, especially those nervous first timers, it is a real pleasure to see.

Condolences to all involved and affected by this tragic accident.

[Professor Plum]

RIP Marshy. Thanks for the good times!

Very sad to hear about the Cadets. Even worse that they're related. Not fair.

[yellowplane]

I really can't add to the words that everyone's already said. Just to say that having been a cadet and flown first at Abingdon in a Chippie and as an adult member of the Corps (and flown in the Tutor), my heart goes out to the families of the youngsters and their pilots.

RIP all

[PPRuNeUser0211]

TT, affirm.

Only met Andy briefly, but by all accounts a top fellow.

Had the honour of flying with Hylton on a number of occasions and spent a lot of crewroom time waiting for the severn fog to clear with him, then taking kids flying. A true gentleman aviator.

I view my spare time spent flying the ATC youngsters around south wales as some of the finest time in my career. All I can say is, if the two girls who were lost yesterday were anything like the kids I flew with, they would have been charming, enthusiastic and great fun to fly with. Long may it continue.

[EnigmAviation]

As a totally retired VRT Officer who has flown thousands of Air cadet sorties and seen the smiles and made some more advanced sudents have their dream come true, I sincerely hope that we carry on as before, flying many more ATC and CCF Cadets.

As my old boss used to say, "ALL flying training is dangerous, but the only way to make it safe is to weld the Hangar doors shut" !!

However, for those who continue to be involved, never forget that our pax and studes are the most valuable jewels belonging to other parents, and that our professionalism MUST always be paramount. That was always my way and it worked well for me and all my young Students and passengers.

Carry on HQAC, and the RAF, may the task continue with the benefit of any Board findings used to improve safety.

[Tigger_Too]

Oh dear. I feared so. If anyone has word of funeral details in the coming days, would you be so kind as to PM me?

[scribbler614]

Very, very sad news. Heartfelt condolences to all families and friends.

Also agree with Jackonicko. As one whose life was greatly enriched by UAS flying I hope that, while all possible lessons are learned, this tragedy will not put the future of AEF or UAS in question.

RIP

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Second that, pm me if you know funeral details please.

[P1 Soaring]

Sad news for the families affected - heartfelt condolences to them.
Knew Hylton - he was a gentleman.

[DBChopper]

I'd like to join the growing ranks of those ex Air Cadets who benefitted from the generosity and experience of the AFEs, and who are posting condolences. I have hugely happy memories from the early 80s of aerobatics over Margate and Cambridgeshire. Please keep up your fantastic work guys, especially in the light of this tragedy.

Hearfelt condolences to families, friends and colleagues of those killed.

[Logistics Loader]

My interest in aviation started with the ATC in Plymouth, flying at AEF Exeter airport as well as Filton. Also during my time gliding at Chivenor and Predannack. The Staff ensuring that the cadets got as much from the experience as possible.

After joining the RAF i put some time back in to the ATC by assiting 2 squardons and also becoming Dep ACLO at one station.
The enthusiasm from cadets in recent years was no different to that of the days when i and countless others were given the opportunity to fly.
Lets hope this continues a long tradition of cadets being flown and that this incident does not put off parents allowing their offspring to sample the delights of aviation.

Heartfelt condolences to all those concerned..

[brokenlink]

Completely numb at the news. Fully echo the sentiments already expressed.



RIP.

[ExGiB]

A very sad day for all. I joined the RAF with Hylton, we graduated from Henlow on No 239 course, 3 December 1970. Our paths crossed many times during our service life, both in staff tours, on GR1s and lastly in Saudi Arabia on the Al Yamamah project. He was one of the old school aircrew officers, a real officer and a true gentleman. My thoughts and condolences go to his family and friends and the family and friends of Andrew, Nikkita and Katie-Jo. RIP.

[seven4mankind]

Extremely sad and tragic news of 4 deaths.

Heartfelt condolences to the families left behind.

God's speed

[klinerclick]

Exgib

A very sad day for all. I joined the RAF with Hylton, we graduated from Henlow on No 239 course, 3 December 1970.


Do you know if he was on 92 Sqn at Wildenrath 1977 ish ?

[1.3VStall]

Yes, he was on Ninety-Blue.

[klinerclick]

Thought he was ta, so thats him Flt White from that period also died think he hit a hill in the Falklands ?

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

My condolences to all.

How can we prevent this happening again?

Is it an inherent risk in aviation?

There but for the grace of God / Allah go we all.

[taffair traff]

Thanks For Your Confirmation Re Hylton. Feel Shattered At News. Still Feels Like Yesterday When Cobras Air Traff In W'rath.

[Riskman]

It appears quite a lot of us are involved with the Air Cadets. I'm off to my unit very shortly where I expect questions, particularly from parents. Other than quoting Andy Naismith I don't intend to encourage speculation. We just have to wait for the BoI to report.

"We've been flying the Tutor for nearly 10 years, and it has an absolutely outstanding safety record," he said. "We are very confident of it. I am content, generally, to continue operating the Tutor ad infinitum."

Condolences to all involved.

[Applecore]

I'd also like to join the growing number of ex Air Cadets who "smiled for days" after the AEFs over Lincolnshire in the 1980s. I was in 2266 Sqd.

After many years of longing to be in the sky again I am finally doing my PPL.

Please make sure that the ATC AFEs are not stopped by this incident.

Condolences to families and friends of those killed.

[jds153]

As a current cadet NCO, who has had some of the best experiences of my life flying with the ATC, on AEF,GS and ACPS, I would just like to say that all the instructors I had were really excellent, enthusiastic and friendly, and though my flying has never taken me to this unit, I am sure that these instructors were no exception. This is a terrible day for the ACO and RAF and my condolences to all involved, however, I will continue to encourage the younger cadets on my squadron to sign up for AEF whenever possible.
Rest in Peace.

James

[STANDTO]

I took my very first glider flight from St Athan whilst med holding there in the summer of 88. I have never turned down an opportunity to fly, and have made sure my kids have had the opportunty much younger than I did. I remember my eldest coming home off a school trip off the rock, on the late boat, having five hours kip, and then being back on the morning boat to go for an AEF flight at Woodvale. Being in the job I am, I remember working the 'what ifs' through my mind. I consolidated it in that if the one in a million had have happened, then at least I had let him 'live', and not wrap him in cotton wool.

A terrible, sad day for everyone, for Wales, for flying.

[Prijon]

Only met Andy a few weeks ago at the Ski Champs. A top bloke who will be sorely missed. My condolences to all the families involved. Dave.

[mgdaviso]

RIP Girls; Cadet Katie-Jo Davies(13), Cadet Nikkita Marie Walters(14)
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Feb/Week2/15221824.jpg

and Guys; Flt Lt Andrew Marsh(24), Flt Lt Hylton Price(63)
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Feb/Week2/15221842.jpg

per ardua ad astra

[batman3]

Gutted and all 4 such a loss to this world.
Tragic that it was their first flights too.
per ardua ad astra x

[EyesFront]

I have been privileged to command ATC Squadrons for more than 20 years, and I have run a large number of camps, courses and expeditions during this time, so the commonplace words of condolence are inadequate to express my feelings about this accident. I happened to be on camp in Germany with cadets from the Welsh Wings in 1993, when three cadets died in the Wessex that went down in Llyn Padarn, and I remember the shock and sadness that we all felt then.

Whatever their Squadron, Wing or Region, air cadets are a very special group of youngsters, despite being one of this country's best kept secrets.

This thread has impressed me by the respect and affection that so many serving and ex members of the RAF have expressed for air cadets, and to hear how the ATC has touched and influenced people's lives. Away from the usual banter it's good to remember that we are all part of the same family.

Thank you.

[Wingswinger]

Shocked and saddened just don't convey the feelings. My heart goes out to all, especially the families of those two young girls. My wife and I are more stunned because we knew Hylton Price

I first got to know Hylton at RAF Wildenrath in the late 70s when he was on 92 Sqn ( I was a JP on a soon-to-depart for Gutersloh Harrier Sqn). He later became a colleague at TWU RAF Brawdy and 14 Sqn RAF Bruggen in the 80s. I have fond memories of many Hunter v Hawk ACT sorties with him and arguing about it all in the mess bar afterwards. We also shared a passion for rugby and fly-fishing and those two sports, along with air combat, fuelled endless mutual banter over a beer. He was a gentleman and a true aviator and he died doing something I know he loved.

If anyone has any information about the timing of his funeral I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd post it here. I'll make every effort to attend if old friends and colleagues will be welcome.

[flyboy1818]

Very shocking and sad:(

Ex UAS and Air Cadets

It was the AEF flights that got me and many others into Aviation, I just really hope these flights can carry on as they have inspired so many.

[Paddington]

So tragic.

It was my ATC AEF that first got me interested in flying.

Condolences to friends and family.

[cargosales]

What terrible news and a tragedy for all of the families involved. My thoughts and condolences are with them all.

The sentiments on this thread though have only served to reinforce that there is something very special about giving something back to the youth in the Air Cadets, and just how much the Air Cadet movement as a whole can have a positive influence on these young people. I sincerely hope this sad incident will not change that in the future.

Twas some time ago now but I gave quite a few Air Cadets their first flight in a glider. For some of them it was their first ever time in the air in anything and they usually loved it but one lad's experience has always stuck in my memory. Because, for him, it was about much, much more than just the flying ... no names or location but his Squadron was from a very deprived inner city area and when this lad first walked out onto the airfield he just stopped and stared, completely speechless. And after a few minutes whispered "Wow, all this green".

Turned out he'd hardly ever been taken out of the city and just had no concept of what lay beyond. And we were less than 20 miles from where he lived :(
His first flight was the usual up round and down 5 minutes but his enthusiasm afterwards was just incredible, asking how he could become a staff cadet, running around to see whatever little job he could do etc etc..

Come lunchtime, when everyone cleared off for grub and us C/Is had the chance to do some soaring and have a bit of fun on our own (but "you only get one launch and if you don't 'get away' then tough and you can wait till we're back for a retrieve") , I asked this lad if he would be up for a 'special job that needed doing' even though it would mean him missing lunch. Silly question really but I had the most memorable half-hour odd flight thanks to him.

The 'special job'? To sit in the front so I didn't have to muck about adding weights to balance the aircraft. He was pretty handy at the controls too :ok:

[Indefatigable]

...I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming...

Condolences from a devastated FAA Pilot.

"fat"

[bird99]

Somebody once told me that nobody is tested more than they can bear. I know what they meant but, in this instance, I'm not so sure. Just the worst news.

[ScottishCop]

Very sad news.
I had spoken to Flt Lt Hylton on a number of occasions and he was a bloody nice bloke. Very polite and cheery. Always willing to give others a flight. This is very sad news for UWAS and Saints.

As an ex-CWO myself, it hit particulary hard to home.

I loved AEF flying in Chipmunks and Bulldogs and I hope it doesn't put any cadets off.

R.I.P "Venture Adventure"
" Per Ardua"

[tommee_hawk]

Hylton Price was in charge of the MOD Team when I worked out in Dhahran in the late 90s - you couldn't hope to meet a nicer guy, a real gentleman.

My heartfelt condolences go out to his family, those of Andrew Marsh and to the families of Nikkita and Katie-Jo at this devastating time.

Rest in Peace

[tmmorris]

Cmdt Air Cadets has issued a statement this morning - relayed to me as a CCF(RAF) Section Cmdr by HQAC-CCF. I'm sure it will also make its way down the ATC chain of command.

It doesn't really say much, as you would imagine, apart from saying that we should all wait for the BOI (and AAIB investigation - remember these were civvie-registered).

Latest from our local AEF is that it is business as usual for now, which is good news as I have cadets flying later this month.

A couple of years ago on Summer Camp at Henlow we visited the accident investigation section - sad to think that these chaps will have been out to the scene, but reassuring as they were unbelievably competent and professional.

Condolences to all involved: it's a bit too close to home for comfort.

Tim

[Evalu8ter]

'Twas only a couple of weeks ago that I was sipping tea with Andy in the Crewroom. He was sooo looking forward to Valley; a keen, enthusiastic and friendly young officer cut off before reaching his prime.

Rest easy chap

[Stretch182]

WT:mad:?

Cousins killed as planes 'did stunts' | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2234234.ece)

Someone needs to sort these :mad::mad:s out!

[capewrath]

Knew it was only a matter of time until some of these parasites published something like that. Nothing is sacred to that lot.

[Logistics Loader]

Sadly this is what the press thrive on !!

A few eyewitnesses who problably will get no closer to an a/c than 5,000ft but couldnt tell the difference from a Tristar or 747 !!

However, they are, at the moment the only witnesses to such a tragic event.

The only thing that should be happening is to allow the AAIB/BOI team to do their stuff and publish a prelim report to dispel the "gutter press" rumours and then a full report to ensure that this is an isolated incident for whatever reasons..!!

LL

[airborne_artist]

I saw a witness whose interview was recorded on the BBCi news page - she made no mention of aeros etc., and she saw the collision in full.

The idea that this accident resulted from a formation manoeuvre that went wrong is laughable, as anyone who has done any standard formation flying in aircraft of this size/type will know.

[A2QFI]

Even the DT reduced itself to uninformed and speculative comment which I won't repeat here - it was total rubbish!

[Flugplatz]

Lets hope the RAF starts to believe in TCAS and funds an installation - lots of basic units available off-the-shelf; probably be able to do it under UOR or similar.

RIP the departed; I too have happy memories of Chippy flights at Hurn.

Flug

[TEEEJ]

Condolences to all concerned. Rest in Peace.

As a small tribute. Tutor - Sunset - RAF Cranwell

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/0104GROBTUTORCRANWELL11DEC08.jpg

[craigJ]

Godspeed Andy, UWAS will be quiet without you around :(

[Geehovah]

I was saddened by the tragic news the other day, particularly at the loss of those young lives, but to hear that it was Hylton is just devastating

I knew Hylton from our time on 92 Sqn and flew with him many times. He was An Officer and a Gentleman in every way. A good man and a fine aviator.

I saw how he handled the approach end barrier incident at Wildnrath in 1980 showing flying skills and airmanship of the highest order; for him to lose his life in this way is just heart breaking

Rest in Peace Old Chap and you will be sorely missed. The world is a sadder place this evening.

[Rigger1]

RIP to the pilots who died doing what they loved, and to the youngsters who have been taken from us far to early. Guttted to hear it was cadets, brings back painful personal memories of the wessex at Valley.

RIP all, our thoughts should be now with the families.

[exscribbler]

I just read through all this thread and of course I've had a bloody good cry at the sadness of it all. What shines through in every post (except those mentioning the execrable gutter press) is how these people died doing something they loved and which so many of us would give anything to do.

We should celebrate that. :ok:

[Flik Roll]

Only just found out and am shocked and numb. RIP Hylton and also Andrew and the 2 girls. Condolences to all the Red Dragons/1AEF and the families involved.

Flik (Ex-UWAS and ATC)

[NDB]

Wessex from Valley and bus out of Wittering.

"Few of many, but it's the few we remember most"

God speed.

[soddim]

I post as someone who not only knew Hylton well but also flew with him on many occasions - sometimes in scenarios where mutual trust and respect for each other's ability was essential. His early departure saddens me and I feel for the losses of all in this tragic accident but look forward to our reunion in whatever passes for happy hour in the next life. In the meantime, I would be most grateful for details of his funeral - please post them here when you know.

[L J R]

Words fail me. RIP ladies and gentlemen.

- LJR (Ex AEF Tutor Pilot)

[PPRuNe Pop]

Deleted posts and edits should enable this thread to continue in the way it started.

PPP

[boswell bear]

Thankyou for that Pop I will now join the thread.

My condolences and best wishes to all those who lost loved ones last week.

Thankyou to all those in the ACO who continued flying over the last few days, providing the Cadets with the aviating that they joined up for.

[Dennis M-H]

Hylton’s funeral arrangements are as follows:

Thursday 26 February 2009 at 1315

Coychurch Crematorium, Bridgend – Off Junction 35, M4. Does anyone need a map or navigator??! See:

http://www.bridgend.gov.uk/web/groups/public/documents/services/002156.hcsp (http://www.bridgend.gov.uk/web/groups/public/documents/services/002156.hcsp)


And afterwards at Coed-y-Mwstwr Hotel, Coychurch, Bridgend

See: http://www.coed-y-mwstwr.com/coed.php (http://www.coed-y-mwstwr.com/coed.php)

Contact [email protected] to advise attendance please.

[Geehovah]

Dennis

I'm out of the country next week or I'd be there

Lift a pint for me

RIP Hylton

[soddim]

Denis M-H

Many thanks - grateful for the info

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Dennis,

Many thanks, I hope to be there if I can make it away in time.

[Wingswinger]

Thank you, Dennis. I hope to be there.

[MMHendrie1]

I have fond memories of Hylton during 3 years on 14 Squadron at Bruggen. As OC ‘A’ Flight, Hylton was a rock, a total professional and an ideal mentor and role model for a generation of youngsters finding their way in the very finest of Air Forces. Hylton’s influence on those around him on the Tornado, and earlier on the Phantom and as a Tactics Instructor on the Hawk, influenced a generation of young aviators and the worth of his contribution has been demonstrated over and over again in 2 Gulf Wars, in the Balkans and in Afghanistan. In his voluntary work at St Athan he was continuing to pass on his enthusiasm and wisdom to a new generation of youngsters. His is a very, very sad loss. I will be unable to say farewell personally on Thursday but will raise a glass in memory.

Condolences to all the families and friends involved in this tragic accident.

[Kilonovember52]

Ministry of Defence Board of Inquiry report into a mid-air collision which killed two pilots and two Air Training Corps cadets is set to be released.
The MoD Board of Inquiry is expected to be released in a House of Commons statement.

[Cows getting bigger]

Here (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/BoardsOfInquiry/ServiceInquiryInvestigatingTheAccidentToTutorAircraftGbyutAn dGbyvn.htm)

[Heliport]

Inquest verdict

BBC News - Warning system 'may have prevented' Bridgend air crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-12182535)

WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/south-wales-news/bridgend-maesteg/2011/01/13/he-died-trying-to-save-the-girls-air-crash-inquest-told-91466-27976236/)


Make allowance for the usual journalistic habits. I am reliably informed that the Coroner acknowledged that similar accidents may occur even if aircraft have collision warning systems. He made no criticism whatsoever of either the RAF or the pilots concerned and pointed out that there were about 35,000 AEF flights amounting to approx 20,000 flying hours last year alone.

Contrary to the unhelpful speculation of some 'aviation experts' found by the press at the time of the accident, the two aircraft were on converging paths - not flying close together before the collision.

As a result of the accident, the RAF decided to equip its Grobs with collision warning systems. No bad thing, but arguably OTT after a fluke accident. Very few civvy light aircraft have got them.

[teeteringhead]

As a result of the accident, the RAF decided to equip its Grobs with collision warning systems. No bad thing, but arguably OTT after a fluke accident. Very few civvy light aircraft have got them. ...my understanding is that the Coroner and the families were very much onside.

Whilst the very basic warning system envisaged (and I believe very imminent) may have prevented this one, the majority of GA are not so-equipped. We ain't talking TCAS here - "see and avoid" will always be the best ( maybe last, often only in Class G) line of defence.

And even if it has "only" reduced the chances from one in ten million to one in twenty million, then that too is a Good Thing ...

..... after all, how many of us buy lottery tickets for a 14 mill to one chance ....

[charliegolf]

A sokesman for the family, an uncle, actually referred to the RAF and Air Cadets (working in partnership) as the best organisation in the world. He seemed to mean the way it gives vent to kids' aspirations, and the resource that is committed. The family's only wish is that if lessons can be learned that can reduce the risks in the future, then they should be.

Very onside to use Teeteringhead's word. Very sad.

CG

[NigelOnDraft]

Do we know "what" this system is - apparently already in service according to the link?

NoD

[Neptunus Rex]

In the 70s I spent three years at Linton as a JP QFI, with no collisions during that time. There were many occasions when you knew that there were 50+ jets in the Vale of York, from Linton, Church Fenton, Leeming, Dishforth et al, all doing General Handling or Navexes, when often times you would never see one outside of the circuit!

The nearest we got was one of the mates (Jack D) pulling 6g to avoid two parachutists (who hadn't Notam'd their drop) plopping open in front of him.

The Grob accident was a most unfortunate anomaly.

[Geehovah]

Lets be honest. It comes down to see and be seen. We've all been close aboard. If you're training hard, life's a risk. Doesn't help for us "puddle jumpers" which is my role in life nowadays.

And Hilton was a good mate and would be the last to criticise.

[Mechta]

Given that future aircraft cockpit design is mentioned in the Convening Authority Comments, I would have thought consideration of a ballistic parachute recovery system might have been discussed. A retrofit to the Tutor may be impractical, but for a future AEF aeroplane it would seem the way to go, given the wide size range of cadets, their possible lack of strength and likely lack of experience. The instructor would also not be faced with assisting a possibly injured and probably panic-striken cadet to do a successful bale out before his own.

[A and C]

The traffic waring system will detect any aircraft with a transponder, as most light aircraft have these it will help a lot with the lookout.

In my view it is the best avalable system that is practical to fit in an aircraft of this size.

[Flying_Anorak]

Gliders have been using a GPS based system called FLARM for a number of years.

More common in Europe than the UK (was developed for use in the Alps) but the take-up amongst UK pilots is increasing and I can thoroughly endorse and recommend it being small and self contained and would be an easy fit to the coaming of the Tutor. Only disadvantage is that it only warns you of other Flarm equipped targets but as a supplement to the Mk 1 eyeball it does what it says on the tin and in the event of an alarm, it gets you looking in the right bit of sky for what it considers to be the highest threat.

[A and C]

FLARM is only able to detect other FLARM targets, it is not a a device that meets any TSO and so it requires a lot of work to get it to a standard were it will get a TSO.

If glider pilots has not objected so strongly to Mode S transponders I am sure that we would be much further down the road to ADS-B by now giving a universal traffic warning system for all aviation users.