No-Capital LSA (EASA C of A) Group - show of interest

[Oxeagle]

Evening all,

Myself and a few others are seriously looking at putting together a no-capital flying group in the near future based around a brand new latest-generation Group-A Light Sport Aircraft with an EASA C of A with the intention of providing an affordable alternative to hiring older outdated flying club aircraft.

Although type is to be decided, it would be an established two-seat rotax powered aircraft with a cruise speed in the region of 110kts and a range of over 600nm. Equipment wise, the aircraft would be equipped with an EFIS glass cockpit avionics suite, Mode S transponder, modern GPS system, PCAS (Personal Collision Avoidance System), ELT, BRS parachute system. We would also have available a fully-equipped life raft, life jackets, 406mhz GPS PLB and backup Icom radio for members to use free of charge when using the aircraft.

Obviously costs depend on aircraft purchased, location etc. However, we would be aiming for costs to members in the ballpark of £100-£120 per month and an hourly rate of £60-70 per hour wet. This first aircraft would only be available to hire by PPL and NPPL holders, but if there is sufficient interest we will look at the possibility of a fractional ownership aircraft to allow for training. We would not be looking to impose any minimum daily hour requirements when taking the aircraft away.

As for location, we are looking at basing the first aircraft in Oxfordshire or Northamptonshire with the potential of setting up new groups where there is sufficient demand to do so. With regards to booking and usage, we are still working on the regulations but we would not be looking to impose any yearly hours limitations like you have with similar schemes such as Cumulus Rentals and Freeflight.

If this scheme sounds of interest, or if you have any further questions, please drop me a PM as we are trying to gauge interest at this time.

[Rod1]

That is a lot of kit for an aircraft with a 600kg limited MTOW. Will it be certified under CS-VLA for EASA operation or some other European system?

Rod1

[Lurking123]

Seconded. Are we talking CS-VLA (750kg Rod ;)) or some other aircraft category that hasn't yet been defined?

[Rod1]

LSA (yes I know that is US only) is 600kg, VLA is 750kg and the new ELSA is 1000kg but will not be in for some time. Having seid that most Rotax powered VLA's are 5-600kg.

Rod1

[Oxeagle]

Rod1,

The aircraft would be one that is certified under CS-VLA. With regards to the equipment, the group members can decide to take what they require for each trip, the surplus equipment would stay at the base airfield.

[Lurking123]

The only production aircraft I can think of that may fit the described criteria is the Aquila. Very nice to fly as a tourer and well finished but rather expensive considering the exchange rates.

I don't think there are many 600nm Rotax driven VLAs out there but would be interested to see one.

[MikeSamuel]

This is the obvious way things should go, but I agree it sounds heavy and the monthly is just too pricey.

I'm currently flying a C150 for half those costs, though it's not a profit-making concern.

If someone set something similar up around a Grob 115 that would be of interest to me.

Otherwise, I'd say 1/20 shares in a PFA VLA type would be a better bet.

[Rod1]

“I don't think there are many 600nm Rotax driven VLAs out there but would be interested to see one.”

There are quite a few LAA VLA’s that will do 600nm plus (P300 / MCR etc). I was wondering if this was a factory built Sports Cruiser? I find the title quite confusing, as the aircraft will be a VLA not an LSA in European skys and this gives it some potential advantages, like CS props etc which are not allowed on in the US LSA cat.

Rod1

[Oxeagle]

Fair comments guys,

MikeSamuel - I completely understand where you are coming from, however if you were planning on flying say 5 hours a month that's still only £80-90 per hour wet. We would consider offering different combinations of monthly and hourly rates depending upon whether the customer is a frequent or casual flyer.

As Lurking123 has mentioned, the initial purchase cost of the aircraft, equipment and putting the group together will almost certainly run over £100k, so we have to offset this outlay somehow. You say that your C152 is roughly half the price - is that a share or fractional-ownership group? We are offering a no-capital investment group because not everyone has £10,000 for a share kicking around in these times. Considering that most clubs charge £100-£130 for a C152, £60-£70 per hour for a modern fully-equipped VLA is a much better deal.

Also, compare the C152 to a modern VLA. The proposed VLA beats the C152 in every respect performance wise, has the latest in avionics (full glass cockpit, Mode S, TCAS), safety equipment (ELT, airframe parachute), and is much cheaper than hiring a C152 from a club. As for your group, you may be getting a lower rate but for a little more per hour your are getting use of a far superior, brand new aircraft!

[Lurking123]

I certainly think there is a niche for VLA (be it CS or LAA) and that group 'ownership' is very attractive.

[Rod1]

Cost of running an LAA VLA is;

Insurance £1200
Maintenance and paperwork £300
Fuel 16lph Mogas
(the above are actual numbers for my 100hp MCR01 with CS prop, glass etc)
Hangarage is typically £500 - £3500 depending on location
Depending on which VLA it would cost £30k - £50k

You can all do the sums…

Rod1

[MikeSamuel]

I agree with your comments Oxeagle, however I'm not sure this would be a successful business idea:

The startup costs are quite huge - even though cheaper than an factory new Group A type, a factory built VLA type is still going to set you back in excess of £50k.

Maintenance is going to be somewhere in the region of a C152 as it'll have to be Public Cat (or whatever the EASA equivalent is, I can't get my head around it).

With a non-capital group you'll probably have people dropping in and out quite regularly, how many members would you need to break even?

The C150 I fly is actually non-capital, it's a fairly unique and extremely good value deal simply because it's not a profit-maker; the owner just uses the non-capital group to help with some of the ownership costs.

If you're looking to own a shiny new VLA, don't mind sharing it and aren't relying on it making money to pay off the purchase cost, then it's probably do-able.

I hope you do make it work one way or the other - it's about time people upgraded from flying around ancient aircraft. I do have to admit I have quite a soft spot for my 70s Cessna though! :8

[Pilotdom]

You can't run a non-equity group on a Permit can you?

[GnT]

Is a non-equity group another way of saying aircraft hire?

[Oxeagle]

MikeSamuel, thank you for the constructive comments :ok: we are looking for at least 10 potential members to make this a go.

Pilotdom - as far as I know, and I may certainly be wrong, you cannot hire a permit aircraft out, or at least without many restrictions. Either way the no-capital aircraft will have an EASA C of A. We are also looking at the possibility of a second aircraft for fractional ownership, which we would consider having on a permit to keep maintenance costs down.

GnT - essentially yes it's the same thing.

Any more feedback please let me know!

[A and C]

Whit ten members and thinking of 600 hours a year will the VLA that you seem to think is so good be robust enough for the task?

The C152 may be old and a bit slower than the VLA but it is much quicker than an aircraft that spends all the time in the sheds being fixed!

[Pilotdom]

At Sherburn we have 2 AT-3 VLA's. MTOW is 582kg.

They are used for training, and have both now done 400 hours each this year. They have held up very well. Very few problems, and they show pretty much no wear on them. The Carb-heat knobs and oil warmer knobs have a bit of wear, but the seats,belts flooring have all held up very well indeed. They are operated on grass and tarmac and stand up well to abuse by students and PPL's alike.

The only issue I find is the low MTOW. I would look further and prob go for Aquila A210 with its 250kg useful load.

Sherburn have also found that the AT-3's use 12litres per hour Mogas, against the book figure of 15.

I only wish someone in the Yorkshire area would set-up such a group.

[gasax]

You probably need to sharpen your pencil and terminology a little.

There are no group A or LSA aircraft at the moment so that suggests a little vagueness or lack of knowledge.

It can be done. The Scottish Aero Club have just bought a Eurostar which is virtually the aircraft you are describing. Under £100 per hour for instruction (just!) and £3k for a twentieth share. Pretty attractive numbers. A non-equity group would be more expensive but should n't be a lot more otherwise the old tin will take your trade.