Safety Worries

[alphamatt]

Hi,

I have had 3 PPL lessons up to yet and am really looking forward to passing my PPL and buying my own little airplane (probably Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior)

I have 2 small children and always have at the back of my mind on how i can make my hobby safer.

I have come up with the following and am pretty sure it would be nigh on impossible to kill myself in a small aircraft if piloted sensibly whilst adhering to the following :


Have Diesel Conversion (diesel doesnt explode no where near as much as petrol does on impact)
Have one of them BRS fitted incase a loss of wing etc
Carry a life raft, gps, various other safety equipment
Budget 1.5x the normal amount for maintenance
Am i on the right tracks?

Matt

[moonym20]

If you want maximum safety you want to look towards modern aircraft... think Cirrus (air bags, BRS, good record etc..)

Diesel wont make a difference.... they still seem to have their 'issues' and on the face of it (corrected no doubt...) seem more prone to problems... the speed you hit the ground when it goes wrong is what counts... the post incident fire is an event that happens after, unlikely to make a large difference

Think Injected engines... more to manage but no Carb to Ice up

hope it helps :ok:

[TheGorrilla]

I would budget for 3x maintenance costs!! :eek:

[Kerosine]

You seem to have a lot of money to play with sir!

[alphamatt]

Hi,

I have inherited some money so could get a newer one. But would prefer obviously to spend as little as possible. I love flying and seem to go through a battle in my mind on how selfish i am putting my kids at risk of being fatherless.

P.S I wouldnt call £50,000 alot of money these days.

Matt

[TheGorrilla]

The most important bit of kit is the nut behind the stick. Best get your skills up to scratch if you really want to keep you family safe.

[alphamatt]

Hi,

That goes without saying. Im a confident person but careful (never had a car smash touch wood) and dont take silly risks.

Matt

[Kerosine]

I have inherited some money so could get a newer one. But would prefer obviously to spend as little as possible. I love flying and seem to go through a battle in my mind on how selfish i am putting my kids at risk of being fatherless.

It seems unusual that you would be so concerned about killing yourself whilst flying, given how 'safe' aviation is. It is right to understand and assess the risk involved with flying especially when you have dependants/kids, but in reality flying safely in a well maintained aircraft will be of more value that BRSs or diesel conversions.

Ensure that you get good and thorough training, it will be this that will help you walk away from an [unlikely!] incident/accident.

[fernytickles]

Also, if you have some budget restraints, consider buying a share in a good quality, well maintained aircraft, rather than outright ownership in a lesser model.

But I'd go with what others have said, invest the money in good training. I'd guestimate more aircraft have landing "issues" due to bad piloting skills/decision-making than due to maintenance problems.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yep, I'd agree with all that's been posted so far.

The most important part of any aircraft is the fleshy thing that moves the controls and makes the decisions. Make sure you are trained at a good school by an experienced instructor and make sure you keep up your knowledge level.

Once you have your licence in your mitts, think about doing further training such as the IMC or Aerobatics to increase your skill level and confidence.

Fly regularily, don't leave big gaps as your knowledge base will atrophy.

Keep an eye on the little ones on the apron and make sure that you enjoy yourself.

Flying isn't that dangerous if you do it well!

[Pilot DAR]

Alphamatt,

I'll try to be positive here, so as to be helpful....

Any type certified aircraft, produced by an established manufacturer, well maintained, skillfully flown by a well trained pilot, within the accepted safe practices, will be as safe as any other. The "extras" won't make it much safer than it left the factory, unless very specialized operations require them - then they're required anyway!

Diesel engines are fantastic in machines which operate on the surface of the earth, they seen to have not yet established themselves well for aviation use. I am presently contracted by an airframe manufacturer to evaluate for approval, the replacement of diesel engines with "old time" gasoline engines in their prime model. If it's good enough for them, it should be for you. Diesel will find it's place in general aviation aircraft - eventually...

Parts do not fall off well maintained, properly flown aircraft. Parachute not required. Heavy and expensive, and a false sense of security. Once you deploy it, you are no longer in control of the aircraft. If you were not committed to be in control of the aircraft for the whole flight, you should not start one. I would never want to surrender the opportunity to control the aircraft during a landing.

Don't let the GPS distract you from safe flying, and traffic avoidance. If you're flying off shore a raft is not only a good idea, it's a requirement. Other than that, it, and the parachute, equal one person you will not be able to carry in the aircraft.

Budget 100% of the cost of normal maintenance, and accomplish normal maintenance well, without missing any opportunity to get it right.

Get good training! Practice. Get more good training. Practice. Realize that no matter how well you're doing, you have made mistakes, and should have scared yourself. Be scared, you'll remember what scared you, and get it better next time.

Let's use, as an unfortunate case study: JFK Junior. I'm sure that we can all agree, that he was probably not limited in finances to apply to his hobby of aviation. He flew a safe, well maintained aircraft, with proper safety equipment? I expect so... Well trained? Perhaps... Practiced, apparently not enough!

The pilots who have scared me the most, while I have flown for the purpose of mentoring them, were those who presented themselves, with their very expensive, well maintained, safely equipped aircraft, and then behaved as though all of that expendature would keep them safe, whether they flew well or not. This is not sensible behaviour. Even the most expensive aircraft can be crashed by an inadequate pilot. Even a defective junker has a good chance of being safely landed my a skilled, prepared pilot.

I observe that many of the cheapskate pilots, who fly the "modest" aircraft, seem to actually be safer (in terms of fewer accidents, and injuries). They're (we're) the "mongrals" of aviation, and seem to be paying more attention to the things that really matter. The guy I bought my plane from, was buying a bigger, better one. He had (and has) never had a license, or an accident. He flew sensibly (unless you think it's sensible to have an actual license!). It was a statisical fact for many years that pilots who operated their aircraft illegally on Mogas in the United States, were much less likely to have a fuel exhaustion/mismanagement accident. They were simply paying more attention to what they were doing, so as not to get caught! The pilots spending the big bucks on Avgas, seemed to pay less attention...

I own a proper liferaft. I wore a parachute for a few hundred of my many thousand hours of flying (when doing so was a legal requirement). I never used either.

Enjoy reading and learning here, and all of the other great places to grow your skills. Leave the fancy stuff for much later, it justs distracts you, and tricks you into false security. Train for real security instead!

Pilot DAR

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Alphamatt,

Parts do not fall off well maintained, properly flown aircraft. Parachute not required. Heavy and expensive, and a false sense of security. Once you deploy it, you are no longer in control of the aircraft. If you were not committed to be in control of the aircraft for the whole flight, you should not start one. I would never want to surrender the opportunity to control the aircraft during a landing.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Broomstick.

[vanHorck]

It is absolute nonsense to say that a newer type aircraft is safer. On the contrary, old well proven designs (PA28, C172) are more likely to have had all their faults ironed out, and even they from time to time have AD's sprung.

Diesel engines (the only ones available currently) are totaly unproven. Thielert just went bust after providing the bulk of the diesel engines, and all those had very limited life and many failures.

I would say get the best training possible, get the best maintenance possible on a well seasoned type aircraft which is well within your capability and dont try to get for the most modern equipment but for the most proven one.

It is all about prudence.

Finally fly as much as you can and even then get yourself tested by an instructor AT LEAST once a year

[Fuji Abound]

Alphamatt

Almost every fatal accident (or accident in which serious injury is sustained) in light aircraft is a consequence of pilot error. For example, the vast majority of forced landings are survivable if the pilot maintains control, selects and achieves a reasonable landing site. Therefore the best way of securing a safe outcome in inevitably to ensure you are well trained AND, as importantly, maintain your skills and currency throughout your “career”.

There remain just a few scenarios where piloting skill will still not secure a successful outcome. These include forced landings at night, ditching, structural failure, mid air collisions and weather encounter.

Forced landings at night are inevitably more often than not a lottery. Pilot skill will still give a reasonable chance of a successful outcome but the perfect glide into the side of a barn is still not health inducing. Therefore either don’t do it (fly at night) or fly an aircraft with a parachute.

Ditching, whilst usually successful (pilot skill), invariably ends up with hypothermia killing the passengers and crew. Never fly over water without a raft and / or an immersion suite.

Structural failure almost never happens. Either don’t worry about it (probably as much chance of happening as winning the lottery) or buy an aircraft with a chute. Avoiding aerobatic aircraft might help.

Mid air collisions result in the same outcome as structural failure. Therefore a chute is the only realistic means of improving the outcome. However, a better solution is to reduce the risk of collision avoidance in the first place. In reality everyone will tell you the chances of a mid air is remote, very remote. Never the less personally I wouldn’t fly without some form of CAS, (given a portable unit can cost only a few hundred pounds) and I would ensure I have a sound understanding of what I can do to reduce the risk – well covered on this forum.

Weather continues to be a significant reason cited for pilot fatality. Almost always the weather in itself is the precursor to the accident. For example, CFIT is ultimately pilot error, not a feature of the weather. All weather accidents can be avoided by being cautious about the weather you fly in. Assuming you fly for pleasure, you have no need to push weather limits, and if you do, expect the weather to bite. Pilot training and some of the above when it does bite will help secure a successful outcome.

In short if you exclude every accident which was ultimately down to pilot error and took all the precautions I have mentioned (and maybe a few others I haven’t included) flying is extremely safe.

[yawningdog]

I wouldn't buy an aircraft at all unless you are flying hundreds of hours per year. I suggest using a scheme like Cumulus Rentals where you are given your own personal key to a new or almost new Cirrus:

- No maintenance responsibilities
- No overheads
- No depreciation
- No club sign-offs for flights
- Nice clean fast plane

Its just like owning a plane without the hassle. Keep you big money in your pocket, not down the drain.

In my opinion the Cirrus is as safe as you can get. In addition to BRS (it amazes me when people talk down parachutes, crazy), the glass cockpit systems are easy to use, you'll never get lost, and the aircraft can be fully automated which massively reduces workload. A great IFR aircraft.

But as previously mentioned, the aircraft won't be the cause of a crash, YOU WILL. Its all about currency, attitude, and training. I don't feel comfortable unless I do at least 50hrs per year. Although I have taken my kid flying a few times, I don't feel comfortable taking him from a moral perspective, he isn't old enough to make the choice and would not be able to get out on his own in the case of an accident.

[julian_storey]

The most important bit of kit is the nut behind the stick. Best get your skills up to scratch if you really want to keep you family safe.

This is absolutely right. The vast majority of GA accidents and incidents are not caused by mechanical failure, or lack of a ballistic parachute, they are caused by pilot error, poor judgement or quite often, downright stupidity.

Your choice of aircraft is almost immaterial and the best investment you can make is in training and thereafter, in flying regularly to maintain currency.

[alphamatt]

Thankyou all for your posts. Very imformative. I am going to put some of the money to good use and get training for IMC and Night and join a shared group.

Matt

[enq]

Out of interest (my knowledge of BRS performance is limited to say the least) does anyone on here know whether a successful deployment is possible during a severe spin or would you end up being strapped into an aircraft that has been rendered uncontrollable due to fouling of the control surfaces?

Morning all, enq.

[TheGorrilla]

I've heard that in a few cases where the chute has been used (in tests or otherwise) the rate of descent is still significant. Pilots and passengers have had legs broken on touchdown.

[PompeyPaul]

P.S I wouldnt call £50,000 alot of money these days.
Wow, can I have £50k please as it's not a lot of money :O

[RatherBeFlying]

The fact remains that the staid looked down upon C-172 has the best safety record of any single engine piston a/c:ok:

There is a book out there on that very topic.

Now it's not nearly as much fun as a Grumman Tiger or Citabria or glider.

Weather is a big killer, but weather only kills when the pilot is dumb enough to fly in or into weather he and/or the a/c can't handle.

Takeoff accidents tend to be deadly. Adequate runways and good maintenance do a lot to keep you away from these. I've seen two recent accidents where the pilot killed himself and his passenger attempting a turnback to the runway after engine failure on takeoff. Let the insurance company buy the airplane, pick the softest spot straight ahead and land under control.

I've done a number of water crossings without a raft. Each time I calculated my glide range and got the winds so that I knew that I could glide to land from 9500'. I hear that Channel crossings are held down to 4000'; so that's immersion suits, Winslow raft and PLB. With children I'd give consideration to Chunnelling them with mum and picking them up on the other side.

Aircraft maintenance for a neophyte owner can be a black hole for money. Buying into a group is a good way to learn about maintenance.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Agree with many others.

Killing yourself in a light aircraft is largely a people problem, not a widget problem. Trying to solve a people problem by buying widgets is almost always the wrong answer.

The most important safety factors are attitude ("yours not the aircraft's" I was going to say, but of course both are vital) and training. As you will realise as you progress through the course, PPL training is trying to teach you three things:

Safety.
Safety.
Safety.It's largely up to you whether you choose to learn.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thankyou all for your posts. Very imformative. I am going to put some of the money to good use and get training for IMC and Night and join a shared group.

Matt

I think that's the best choice you could make - for value for money, safety, and pure enjoyment of your flying.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

The fact remains that the staid looked down upon C-172 has the best safety record of any single engine piston a/c:ok:


I'm pretty certain that if you pull the stats apart, whilst the C172 is very good, the C152 and PA28-161 are both better.

Realistically however, you'd have to try pretty damned hard to kill yourself in any of these aeroplanes.

G

[TheGorrilla]

Didn't Bob Hoover say that about the Piper Cub? Darn near impossible to kill yourself in one.

[eharding]

Didn't Bob Hoover say that about the Piper Cub? Darn near impossible to kill yourself in one.

Near as dammit a 100% chance of doing yourself a life-threatening mischief getting in or out of the bloody things though....in my experience.

[TheGorrilla]

Near as dammit a 100% chance of doing yourself a life-threatening mischief

Perhaps if you've just eaten lunch....

[RatherBeFlying]

Near as dammit a 100% chance of doing yourself a life-threatening mischief getting in or out of the bloody things thoughAh yes, a fabric covered flying jungle gym:\

[DaveW]

Didn't Bob Hoover say that about the Piper Cub? Darn near impossible to kill yourself in one.

Not quite the point being made - the quote was more along the lines of "The Piper Cub is the safest airplane in the World - it can just barely kill you."

And, to be pedantic, it's attributed to Max Stanley of Northrop, not Bob Hoover.

[FREDAcheck]

Thankyou all for your posts. Very imformative. I am going to put some of the money to good use and get training for IMC and Night and join a shared group.

Matt
Good idea, but if you really want to avoid risk, in my opinion don't fly at night with a single-engined plane. I'm not suggesting night flying is dangerous, but it is inherently more dangerous than daytime flying. In the unlikely event of an engine failure, by day you have a reasonable chance of a forced landing without killing anyone. By night, the chances are rather lower.

I'm not suggesting night-flying is stupidly dangerous, just a little bit more dangerous than flying by day. And as you were looking (in your first post) to eliminate any avoidable danger in flying...

But I agree with everyone else's posts (and your conclusion) to concentrate on skills-building, and look for your first aircraft ownership in a group with experienced and competent flyers. It's useful to have someone else that knows about maintenance, regulation and so on.

[julian_storey]

Killing yourself in a light aircraft is largely a people problem, not a widget problem. Trying to solve a people problem by buying widgets is almost always the wrong answer.

I wish I'd posted THAT! :-)

[TheGorrilla]

Widget post, pure genius! Sir!

Thanks DaveW, I thought it was Bob but wasn't sure, hence the question in my post.

Now back to the widget..... Reminds me of a spitting image sketch involving Norman Lamont or maybe just a building support in an old house. Both totally incapable of preventing air accidents, however, if the widget is in an old pub it may come in handy after the crash. Especially if the crash is in the roof of the pub and the widget is supporting what's left.

[JW411]

Like a lot of previous posters, I also recommend that you invest a goodly amount of money in yourself. If you are well-trained and well-practised at all times then that is the most important step that you can take to keep yourself and your loved ones alive.

Never stop learning (I am still learning after 46 years). Get your IMC rating and your night rating. If you can possibly afford it, get a proper Instrument Rating after that. They are all great investments.

Don't be too afraid of the risks of night flying. Undoubtedly there has to be a slightly increased risk but I have never seen any statistics stating that it is much more risky than flying by day.

How many times have you heard the statement, when discussing going down to the Channel Islands for the weekend, "the engine doesn't know it's over the water". The same applies to night flying. The engine doesn't know that it's got dark!

I don't remember being told how dangerous it was to fly single-engined aeroplanes at night when I was in the RAF (but we were well-trained). I now have 5,500 hours of flying at night in my log books and I still enjoy a bit of night flying in my PA-28 when the weather permits.

[RatherBeFlying]

As long as you have enough gas and stay out of weather you and/or the a/c can't handle, there's not that much added risk in night flying except for those whose habit is flying 3 mile finals from 500':uhoh:

[DavidHoul52]

Realize that no matter how well you're doing, you have made mistakes, and should have scared yourself. Be scared, you'll remember what scared you, and get it better next time.


.. and I thought it was I alone who felt scared on every flight! I spend the next week after the flight thinking about what I could have done differently and what extra information I can find about the particular route, airfields or manoeuvre.

Great piece of advice, Pilot DAR!

[Mark1234]

How many times have you heard the statement, when discussing going down to the Channel Islands for the weekend, "the engine doesn't know it's over the water". The same applies to night flying. The engine doesn't know that it's got dark!

Inclined to think that's a little delusional :) Granted you're no more likely to have an engine issue at night / overwater than dry land in the daytime, but that's rather missing the point. The difference is that the consequences of it quitting over water / at night are generally more serious - same principle as most thinking pilots will avoid flying over unlandable terrain where they can easily route otherwise.

That not to say SE overwater/night (or even IFR) are nevessarily 'risky', but there's more risk than regular day VFR. I believe it's a good tool to have in the box; Having personally completed a night rating recently, it's definately had a significant positive effect on my flying.

[TheGorrilla]

If you think about and consider all the different ways an aeroplane can kill you you'd never get in the damn thing. It's impossible to eliminate risk, only reduce it. So kids, either do what your mummy tells you or go outside and play with the big boys.

[Pilot DAR]

Top class training is expensive, but worthwhile.

Yeah but...

Top class is available, often for the cost of a coffee, or simply listening (or reading) to what other more experienced pilots have to say. Yes, there's sometimes wheat from chaff sorting required (certainly here!), but even that excercise makes you sharper.

Formal instruction, absolutely, but pay attention around the club house and by asking advice. Most of what I know came that way, rather than the formal training route.

But, bottom line completely agreed, best safety tool a well skilled pilot!

Pilot DAR