FAA Speed Limits

[maui]

FAR 91.117 imposes a speed restriction of 25 below 10,000 for turbo jet aircraft.

It has been put to me that this is applicable only out to 5 miles offshore.

Try as I might I can find no reference to the area of application of the restriction.

It has always been my understanding that it applies to any designated US airspace regardless of proximity to the US coast.

If any one out there can point me in the right direction to find verifiable data on the application of this restriction, I would appreciate it

Maui

[SeanGG]

91.117 a)

"Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h)."

The US airspace extends to 12 NM from the coast, so my understanding is that this regulation applies as long as you are within that area.

Not sure if this answers your question, but I hope it helps.

[kijangnim]

Greetings
In fact the FMC selects 240 below 10000 to be sure that 250 will be respected.
However there is a catch for departure, Clean if VRF +80 so when close to MAX TO Weight you will have at least 260, Normaly we call ATC and tell them about the speed for performance requirements, they always answer Approved :ok:

[411A]

The US airspace extends to 12 NM from the coast, so my understanding is that this regulation applies as long as you are within that area.


Discussions with several FAA inspectors have confirmed the above.

[BelArgUSA]

Despite that speed limit of 250, in the USA...
For a 747, we request "high speed" departure due to performance requirement.
Some guys simply say "Need 280 for performance".
ATCO confirms by clearing us for that speed.
Never had departure control denying us that speed.
xxx
You see, heavy (377 tonnes) our V2 flaps 20 is 180 KIAS.
To retract flaps, we need V2 180 + 80 = 260 KIAS.
To maneuver clean, we need V2 180 + 100 = 280 KIAS...
xxx
:ok:
Happy contrails

[SeanGG]

I find this very interesting.

However there is a catch for departure, Clean if VRF +80 so when close to MAX TO Weight you will have at least 260, Normaly we call ATC and tell them about the speed for performance requirements, they always answer Approved

My question now is: Who is the "Administrator"? Does ATC qualify as the "Administrator" in the case you just mentioned?

The way I have understood this after discussing with other pilots and also considering the way it is written in the regulations, ATC does not qualify as "the Administrator" they refer to in 91.117 a).

Therefore, at least the way I understand it, they can not give authorization for not complying with 91.117 a) in the case you mentioned.


Lets have a look at 91.117 (b):

"Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (...)"

As you can see it is written differently from (a), as they here specifically state that ATC can authorize you to deviate from the regulation.

However, when it comes to the particular case you mentioned, it might still be legal under 91.117 (d) which says:

"If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."


PS: in part 1 "Administrator" is defined as: "the Federal Aviation Administration or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned".


Someone please further enlighten me.

[BelArgUSA]

The "Administrator" delegates his authority to FAA Inspectors, or ATC controllers, etc.
ATC has the authority to waive the 200/250 limits when aircraft requires higher speeds.
It implies that the aircraft requires higher speed as minimum speed.
We advise "departure control" on initial call of our speed requirements.
Funny is that when ATC knows we are 747, they clear us "speed at your discretion".
xxx
:ok:
Happy contrails

[SeanGG]

aha, I see.

But what if that speed requirement was not a necessity for your specific airplane, would ATC still be able to approve a speed above 250 below 10 000 ? (they probably wouldn't, but would they have the authority to do so?)

Thank you!

[galaxy flyer]

FAR 91.117 (d) says

d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Please do not stop reading until the whole section ends. ATC does not grant the permission to operate above 200/250 kts, the FAR does.

GF

[SeanGG]

I am aware of this GF, but my thought was that if your speed requirement is in accordance with 91.117 (d) and you request permission from ATC (which in theory isn't even required) they will of course say "approved" as a confirmation ? What else would they say? They wouldn't go on babbling about how it isn't necessary for you to ask since it is in the regs etc...

Naturally the correct thing would just be to notify them as BelArgUSA said.

[BelArgUSA]

Hola SeanGG -
xxx
To your question - If your airplane does not require to exceed 250 for above reasons... and you request high speed, a FAA ATC controller does NOT have the authority to waive the speed limits. They know which airplanes require higher speeds at heavy gross weight, knowledge of basic performance capability of airplanes is one thing controllers know well, and I assume is part of their training.
xxx
In other countries, regardless of their AIP speed limits, I used to request "high speed" below FL 100 for arrival, such as CDG, MAD, or FCO, they rarely said "negative, reduce to 250 speed"... well to the contrary, at these airports, they ask you to fly fast on arrival.
xxx
Being Belgian-born, I speak French. One evening, I was having a beer in a hotel bar, near CDG. A few gentlemen were there, talking airplanes. I realized that they were ATC controllers. I went to shake hands, and introduced myself as a pilot, etc...
xxx
We conversed for a while. Then they mentioned "you know, is very strange with USA carriers, we often ask them to fly faster than 250 to go with the flow of the traffic of other airplanes but they say NO...! - why is that you think"...? - I had to explain to them that all US air carriers have the 250 below 10,000 speed limit as company policy in their GOM.
xxx
Honestly, I can understand that while US pilots want to stick to their procedures, they do not realize that they upset approach control traffic management. Further, as these guys told me, "if an American does not want to fly fast, we will put him last for landing sequence"...
xxx
So, my USA friends, if you want to save fuel, proceed as cleared by ATC, if they tell you "speed at your discretion" - in aviation English they mean "FLY FAST". When ATC gave me "speed at my discretion", I did generally 280 KIAS until 10 NM from touch down, bearing in mind that my VFE for the first flaps extension is 275. I do not want to be nº 7 for landing sequence.
xxx
:*
Happy contrails

[LanFranc]

Just a word of advice to readers of the forum, be careful of the opinions expressed here. US ATC is not authorised to grant deviations from FARs. The speed requirement in US airspace is statutory. There are several airports in the US where higher departure speeds have been specifically authorised by the Administrator for "evaluation purposes."

FAR 91.117 (d) says


Quote:
d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Please do not stop reading until the whole section ends. ATC does not grant the permission to operate above 200/250 kts, the FAR does.

GF

I would point out that a minimum clean speed above 250 kts is not a "safety" issue but one of efficiency.

Then again, that's just my opinion. See sentence one.

Cheers

[SeanGG]

Thanks guys, and thank you for the great reply BelArgUSA. That clarifies a lot, and it also makes a lot of sense the way they have written it in the regs (which I pointed out in my second post in this thread).

:ok:

[galaxy flyer]

As I see it, ATC was given the authority to waive the 200 KIAS rule regarding Class C and Class D airspace, but was NOT given that authority for the 250 below 10,000. The "Administrator" for these purposes is someone higher than the controller. For example, low altitude military airspace does not have a 250 knot restriction, but may not be "restricted' airspace prohibiting civil traffic i.e. MOAs.

So, fly 250 below 10,000, unless your aircraft specifically needs to maintain a higher minimum speed. (pretty much the Whale nowadays, but I don't know about the the French Whale), then do so silently. ATC knows what's up if your strip (actually not a strip anymore) shows B747 and you're doing 280 ground speed.

GF

Oh, and if you are operating underneath a Class B (a TCA to BelArgUSA and me) 200 KIAS, please. ATL Approach, among others, will scold ONCE, then send the Boys in Blue after you.

BelArgUSA: Last week we were operating out of ATL, actually PDK, and the chief pilot of the company we were demo'ing the plane to kept calling it Class B and I kept repeating it back as a "TCA". Boy, did I feel old!!

[galaxy flyer]

LanFranc

That is a good point, there is no restriction from operating the B744 at 250 knots, one would just have to have some Flaps 1 or Flaps 5, I suppose. Inefficient, but technically, it is not required to be clean below 10K.

[BelArgUSA]

LanFranc -
xxx
Flying a 747 at weight 377 tonnes at 249 KIAS clean will get it to STALL
Have you flown a 747...? I flew them from 1989 until 2008. In USA as well.
I would advise YOU to be careful with "opinions" expressed here.
I do not express opinions. I describe what are 747 procedures.
US ATC cannot waive 200/250 speed limits, but read post nº 11 above for exceptions.
xxx
:}
Happy contrails.

[411A]

The "Administrator" for these purposes is someone higher than the controller.
Negative, for the purposes of the minimum safe speed required.

Confirmed by the FAA on numerous occasions.
Speed required for normal ops...as required.

'Tis a fact.

[A Comfy Chair]

BelArgUSA - LanFranc is saying that it is possible to safely operate a 747 at 250kts on climb, and he is of course correct. As you know, to do this, you'd need to have probably Flap 1, which isn't necessarily efficient but certainly possible.

I do agree with you, however, that +100 is what I call an operational requirement, and so tell ATC and fly that speed. London has been quite clever and granted a dispensation to 747's to fly at 280kts if required... less radio calls, less fuss. Some other airports state a speed restriction of 250kts or Min Clean Speed. Again, removes the fuss.

As to the US pilot thing... we were rather confused out of a major European airport when after takeoff, ATC would say "High Speed Approved", when we didn't think there was a speed limit! Further investigations got the answer that the phrase was used to remind US based airlines that they could go fast. Smart controllers! :ok:

[BelArgUSA]

Hola Comfy -
xxx
Agree with you about keeping Flaps 1 and 250 for a departure...
Honest, I cannot recall any instance of ever been required to do so.
Yet I have been just about everywhere with 747s on the planet.
No US controller, nor London ever gave us problems for approving 280.
Not even Frankfurt controllers who sit on regulation manuals...
xxx
Befehl ist befehl, they say - 280 bitte...? Jawohl, naturlich.
Even Lufty flies heavy 747s at 280 on departure.
I asked a buddy of mine, F/E 747 for many years on Lufthansa Cargo...
Ja ja ja...! Mein Kapitein always used 280 - is what he told me...!
They even do 280 on their autobahns with their BMW cars.
xxx
:}
Happy contrails

[maui]

Thanks all for the discusion.

Sean GG post #2 came closest to what I am after, however I still haven't got what I need.

Can someone point me to the verification of the extent of US airspace and the applicability of the restriction.
Sean says it is 12 miles, someone else has told me it is 5 miles.
I have no doubt that if I was cracking along at VMO, 13 miles at 9000 feet off Long Beach I would be in a truckload of strife.

To my mind anywhere you are under the control or supervision of US controllers you should be bound by the restriction.

Maui

[BelArgUSA]

Hola Maui -
xxx
I have a secret place to find almost anything.
It spells GOOGLE. Golf Oscar Oscar Golf Lima Echo.
Do not tell anyone about this...
xxx
After you get Google, type FAA AIM, it comes in PDF.
FAA Airman Information Manual
Then go to Airspace. Chapter 3-2-2.
Class A Airspace.
Under "a. Definitions", it says 12 (statute) miles from the coast.
xxx
Please, do not tell anyone about Google. Only few know.
I fear that Osama would find out about it.
xxx
:D
Happy contrails

[A Comfy Chair]

BelArgUSA,

200 down the Autobahn was more than enough for me, but I've never really had a thing for speed. :}

My point was that the speed restriction doesn't apply in Frankfurt, but the controllers have to continuously remind the US crews of that fact as they all just stick to 250/10000, probably as a force of habit ;)

Maui -

Basically this is your answer.

Jepp WWT United States.

"United States Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR's), ATC procedures and definitions are applicable within the Domestic Airspace, Alaska, Hawaii and Offshore Airspace Areas".

This means that the 250/10000 applies within those areas (specifically Domestic Airspace) and not in the Oceanic areas.

As BelArgUSA has shown (its also in the WWT/AIP), in most cases US Domestic Airspace ends at 12nm, and then becomes Oceanic Control Area.

This means blasting out from LAX, once you are outside domestic airspace you aren't limited by that FAR restriction.

[airfoilmod]

A Friend was returning to Miramar from Blue Water ops. At 20 DME he calls LA as a courtesy. At 800 knots in his F-14, Approach reminded Hoser of the "Speed Limit". "Gunfighter xx copy, I have a note from my mother."

[galaxy flyer]

Sounds like the Navy. At the Pease airshow a number of years ago, a young stud in an F-16 approaching to land. He asked for the PAR, at glide slope intercept, said stud, raised the gear, selected full AB and lowered the FPV 3 degrees. The PAR controller issued a flurry of instructions, as it was about 15 seconds from GSI to "over approach lights". Hilarious to hear.

GF

[hoover1]

i was flying into KJFK on morning and the center told us to keep our speed up above 300kts even below 10,000. i fly a 737. from what i understand is that atc does have the athority to grant you a clearence above 250kts below 10,000. i was glad to oblige in order to cut a couple of minutes off.

[maui]

BelArgUSA
Thanks for letting me in on your secret source of information.
I have lurked there. Fear not, I used stealth, least I unwittingly tip off OBL.
Interestingly, whilst there I discovered something of great import.

BelArgUSA, has the wrong end of the stick.

Class A airspace starts at 18,000ft, so any mandated speed restriction below 10,000 is hardly relevant. However the definition does go on to say that Class A extends " in designated international airspace beyond 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska within areas of domestic radio navigational signal or ATC radar coverage, and within which domestic procedures are applied.

The answer to my question which I have determined through your benevolence, is that the speed restriction would apply in Class B airpace as far out over the water as the airspace is designated B, regardless of the 12 mile bit.
Now I just have to determine how far out it goes. Back to the charts.

Thanks
Maui

[Graybeard]

Before maybe 1980, the US territorial limit was three statute miles.

Maui, as long as you mentioned Long Beach, is Catalina Island territory contiguous with mainland territory, or a separate territory with 12 mile limit. . It's 26 miles across the sea to romance, as you know...

GB

[411A]

I have no doubt that if I was cracking along at VMO, 13 miles at 9000 feet off Long Beach I would be in a truckload of strife

Ahhh, well you might be, if a rather large bird was sucked in your intake.
OR, elsewhere....:}

[SeanGG]

i was flying into KJFK on morning and the center told us to keep our speed up above 300kts even below 10,000. i fly a 737. from what i understand is that atc does have the athority to grant you a clearence above 250kts below 10,000. i was glad to oblige in order to cut a couple of minutes off.

bleh, now we're back to where we started... :(

[ZQA297/30]

Prolly because you arrived from over water. Years ago in another life I used to arrive into JFK from the south side, sometimes late at night with no speed-sequencing.
Once you are more than 12 mi off the coast, the general speed limit does not apply. Cant remember what the STAR said, but remember steaming along at 300KIAS plus, until approx.14 mi off the NJ coast, or Long Island, on the radar, with ATC's blessing.

[Dream Land]

i was flying into KJFK on morning and the center told us to keep our speed up above 300kts even below 10,000. i fly a 737. from what i understand is that atc does have the athority to grant you a clearence above 250kts below 10,000. i was glad to oblige in order to cut a couple of minutes off.

bleh, now we're back to where we started... Ah, actually no, for clarity, see post #11. :ok:

[mach1someday]

does anyone know if its possible for a civilian aircraft to break the sound barrier somewhere? if his plane is capable? in other words where are the rules the most relaxed..

like in some quiet foreign country?

check out the javelin jet and the viper jet

I just ask because id love to own one of these someday..it would be pretty gay if you couldnt max it out!

thanks

[Buster Cherry]

Maui.
The answer to my question which I have determined through your benevolence, is that the speed restriction would apply in Class B airpace as far out over the water as the airspace is designated B, regardless of the 12 mile bit.
Now I just have to determine how far out it goes. Back to the charts.I believe Class B extends to approx 40nm from the key airport traffic areas.
Not sure if this range is actually set in stone as there is no reference in part 91.

I stand to be corrected though. :uhoh:

[MarkerInbound]

Each Class B in the US is unique.