wireless internet for flying info [Archive]

rans6andrew

31st Jan 2009, 21:19

I see that several flying clubs/airfield cafes have wireless internet connectivity for customers. Have any of you tried it? Does it deliver?

What I really want to know is: would a Pocket PC (HP214 etc with 802.11 wireless built in)) be worth carrying while on a touring flying holiday, with the intention of getting the NOTAMs and Met. Recently we were weathered in at Abbeville for a few days and relied, in part, on the generosity of the Airfield Motel proprietor to access the internet. We kept sneaking use of his bookings computer (when he was not actually using it). I would prefer not to run up the cost of access by using my mobile phone. Is a pocket PC screen big enough to make any sense of the MET forms (214, 215).

I have tried to get to see a Pocket PC in the flesh, working, but all that PC World can offer is a display mock up unit. Not very helpful for me to see if the display is clear and the text big enough for me to read. Plenty available mail order but I would like to see before parting with hard earned.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Andrew.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

31st Jan 2009, 21:35

I have used PDAs for several years for reasons other than flying. My PDA connects to my home, or any other, wi-fi network just like a larger computer and accesses the internet with no problems. However, there are shortcomings due to the screen size and some internet pages do not display correctly if they are not written with handheld PCs in mind.

I suggest that you obtain the use of a PDA via a friend and check a few aviation web sites to ensure that the system is viable before you risk using it for navigation purposes.

Pilotdom

1st Feb 2009, 00:09

What about getting a netbook.....

Dell Inspiron Mini 9 Laptop Details (http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-9?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&ref=lthp&s=dhs)

Acer Aspire ONE A110-AW Laptop PC Laptop PC LU.S020A.089 - PC World Business Online Store UK - Buy The Best Deals Online. (http://www.pcwb.co.uk/catalogue/item/ACNB8131?cidp=Froogle)

The get an 02 dongle.....

O2 Mobile Broadband (http://shop.o2.co.uk/promo/o2mobilebroadband/tab/Pay_and_Go)

£30 for dongle, then £2 for 24hours when you need it.

IO540

1st Feb 2009, 06:47

I have done the PDA route pretty well and concluded that while it can do the job as an emergency solution (and I still carry a HP4700 for this reason) the screen is too small.to be any good.

I would buy a lightweight laptop, or one of the higher-end tiny "EEE" laptops which have recently come out, with windoze (not unix), and bluetooth, and use a mobile phone (also with bluetooth, and GPRS/3G) as a bluetooth-connected data modem.

There are certainly laptops around with a built-in GSM/GPRS/3G modem and I have a nice one (Thinkpad x60s 1704) which I use for ground tasks (flight planning etc) but this has the disadvantage that it needs its own SIM card, and due to the sporadic usage you will go for a PAYG one, which in turn results in ripoff data tariffs, especially on Vodafone (I am being ripped off £10/MB when abroad) to which most such laptop modems are locked. I have found a prog which should unlock mine but haven't used it yet because I want to get shot of my prepaid credit first. It is better to use one's normal phone as the modem because the SIM card is then shared, and one is much more likely to have a contract SIM in one's phone, and one gets much better data tarrifs on contracts than on PAYG.

With a laptop, one can run the whole lot on it, which saves a lot of messing around.

mm_flynn

1st Feb 2009, 17:10

I carry a laptop in the plane (for JepView, IFR route generation, Logs, plates to airports where I hadn't expected to arrive, etc.). However, I also bought an iphone for briefings on the move. It is a bit more work than a proper laptop (some stretching and pushing to either see the whole context or enough detail to read) But - I can pull down the USAF OWS weather charts, Avbrief, the Metoffice, AIS for a notam brief and file a flight plan on homebriefing (slowly on the last one).

This means I only need to pop the phone in the pocket and I can get all of the info I need. If you can pickup wifi, it is fantastic. In your home country (UK for me) all the data over 3G is also free. However, unless you fly a medium jet, you will find the cost of 3G roaming in Europe is staggering (I think £10/MB!!!).

Rod1

1st Feb 2009, 17:17

I am considering getting ASUS 901 Eee PC free on an Orange deal at £24 a month inc Mobile BB and Wi-Fi. I can put all my aircraft manuals and FF stuff on it and use it for flight planning and programming my panel mount GPS via an SD card etc. I would be interested if others think this a good solution?

Rod1

smith

1st Feb 2009, 17:19

try the pocketsurfer, cracking bit of kit. Gives you free high speed connection over the mobile network. One off payment for the device and no monthly fees.

rans6andrew

1st Feb 2009, 17:46

thanks to all the responders.

I was looking to avoid the use of a mobile phone for data/web access if at all possible. I only use a pay as you go phone and my ANNUAL bill for it is less than many people pay out on their contracts each month. I am concerned that the cost of data/web access when abroad (mainly France) will be disproportionately high. The size and weight of any solution must be kept low (2 people touring in a microlight doesn't allow much luggage space or weight) and the security aspect means carrying all of your toys when you leave the aircraft (pocket sized stuff is good).

The cheapest solution may be a text message to someone at home who is able to work the internet and reply. No PC to get pinched.

IO540

1st Feb 2009, 17:52

The ASUS 901 Eee PC (http://www.trustedreviews.com/notebooks/review/2008/06/14/Asus-Eee-PC-901-20G-Linux-Edition/p1) looks fine.

Make sure you get the one with windoze and bluetooth; the spec may differ - e.g. this one (http://uk.insight.com/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=ASUYA05ZOH&nbs_search=K%3Dasus%2B901%2Beee%26x%3D23%26y%3D13).

That will then do everything you will ever need flying-wise.

Linux is a dead end in this context.

With bluetooth, you can even link it with this (http://www.thuraya.com/en/article/thuraya-smartphone.html) and get weather / SMS when airborne (it works too) :)

smith

1st Feb 2009, 18:31

definately pocketsurfer, full page internet, no monthly fee or charges in UK and only 5p min roaming in Europe and USA, thoroughly recomend it. And it folds up and fits in your pocket. go to Welcome to PocketSurfer2 (http://www.pocketsurfer.co.uk) . ps I have no affiliation with this company, just find it a great piece of kit.

IO540

1st Feb 2009, 18:35

The big Q is whether it runs the Afpex application. Most likely not.

PompeyPaul

1st Feb 2009, 18:45

Asus do some great deals, very cheap too. I wouldn't be put off by linux since it will do everything, browsing wise, that you want to.

If you need to run win stuff then you can install wine, and then run it through that. Otherwise you can install VirtualBox and run winxp inside a VM on your laptop. Very trivial operations, very do-able.

Why pay the extra dosh for windows ? Avoid vista like the plague, it really is a resource hog and laptops tend not to do well with it.

Personally I use my iPhone for what you describe. 3g broadband, as well as free use of all O2 hot spots. If contract and call rates are an issue then really a cheap and cheerful ASUS laptop would do. Don't be scared off by linux. After you've enjoyed free software it's very hard to go back to Bill Gate$ and hi$ army of darkne$$

All, very much, imho of course :)

IO540

1st Feb 2009, 18:49

I would avoid Vista - it's crap.

However, I would go for XP on anything low powered like these EEE laptops. Virtualising the CPU and running windoze is just going to make it run even slower.

Also while pure browsing can be done on "anything", typical flight planning software is all windoze: Navbox, Jeppesen stuff, etc.

As regards free software, I thought most people already had that one sorted ;)

(Don't get me wrong - I love M$ as much as everybody else, having just totally trashed my nice laptop with SP3)

S-Works

1st Feb 2009, 21:10

I have one of the little ASUS thingies. It came with Linux and I put XP on it to run flitestar. Works well enough. I use the Vodafone 3G dongle or WiFi. Not bad for a couple of hundred quid. It works with AFPEx fine.

I still prefer my Mac though!

denhamflyer

2nd Feb 2009, 07:43

MacBookAir with Parallels/XP for Flitestar. And iPhone for wx etc.etc. (reads the Met Forms brilliantly) :ok:

Anything in-between is a serious compromise.

LH2

2nd Feb 2009, 14:46

Hi IO,

Linux is a dead end in this context.

One begs to disagree. :)

(on the basis that any of my Linux powered Asus-thingy, my two Linux powered laptops, and my Linux powered desktop, do the job just fine or better. On the other hand I concede that my Linux powered Gumstixs and my Linux powered web and VPN servers are a bit less suited for the task, mostly due to lack of keyboards and screens)

(and nobody dare call me a geek :8)

Shunter

2nd Feb 2009, 18:50

I also disagree. The Mrs has a Linux Eee. I've got Jep, NotamPlot, NavBox and everything else working on it just fine. Took less than half an hour to setup and could be easily documented for a novice. It also now has a built-in 3G card, so no dongle required. That bit however is perhaps not so novice friendly as it involves a soldering iron.

IO540

3rd Feb 2009, 09:27

I do not understand why one would buy a unix based laptop, only to load an emulator on it to run windoze XP so they can run the software they actually need.

Specialised applications aside (and yes LH2 you are an exceptionally competent geek :) :) ) unix on these tiny laptops is good for basically one thing which is running a browser.

I know one can get lots of free software for Linux etc but one can get lots of free software for windoze too ;) and here we are talking about aviation related stuff.

My guess is that M$ are flogging XP very cheaply to these manufacturers, because the price premium on the XP versions seems minimal.

LH2

3rd Feb 2009, 10:47

only to load an emulator on it

Ahem, in typical free software's time-honoured recursive acronym tradition, Wine Is Not an Emulator (http://www.winehq.org/) :ok:

to run windoze XP so they can run the software they actually need

I do not run any Windows applications either (let alone a Windows OS).

OTOH, running Windows in a virtualised environment would still count as running Windows, not *nix. I have never tried it but I imagine that could be a good way of ensuring a stable Windows platform for kiosk-like use, by reverting to a known-good (and safe) configuration on every reboot. I think I might be digressing a bit though :\

In any event, my computing platforms cover my flight planning needs very well indeed.

Getting sidetracked for a minute again, I also note that a Linux system would be ideal to develop specialised solutions such as, err... inflight connectivity ;) I'm thinking about things like the relative ease of programming cheapest-path connectivity, opportunistic caching for latter use while on a cheap link, etc.

But to get back to the topic, yes, anything with Wifi+GPRS, a screen readable enough to read SIGMETs and NOTAMs, and a web browser to fill flight plans and book accommodation, etc., is about all you need. A flight planning application is a nice extra.

PompeyPaul

3rd Feb 2009, 12:29

Getting sidetracked for a minute again, I also note that a Linux system would be ideal to develop specialised solutions such as, err... inflight connectivity http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif I'm thinking about things like the relative ease of programming cheapest-path connectivity, opportunistic caching for latter use while on a cheap link, etc.
I was under the impression that most real time software on aircraft was *nix based due to it's reliability ? May be wrong, I just thought one of my lecturers once mentioned it. Would make sense to me, win up times in months are unusual, where as *nix uptime in years is quite common on the servers I run. Of course, individual mileage may vary.

I VM purely for the odd win application that won't work wine (very few and far between). It allows you to live in a secure enviroment, whilst you still get access to win apps if you REALLY need it (and mostly you don't).

Apart from that I avoid Win like the plague, it's scary that so many people do their internet banking on Win \ Vista. Truly scary. A "friend" of mine once loaded Aircrack (http://www.aircrack-ng.org/) and Metasploit (http://www.metasploit.com/) onto his Fujitsu lifebook U (http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/fujitsu_lifebook_u_the_worlds_smallest_laptop.php) and automated the wireless cracking so that Metasploit attacks started immediately after the wireless network was hacked. Walking around "his" local estate it was truly scary as to how many wireless networks were once cracked and then the WinXP \ Vista machine compromised. I believe a 20min walk yielded around 3 hijacked PCs \ Laptops. Couple that with the fact that you can buy servers for pennies (http://www.linode.com/). It doesn't take much to put this stuff together, and in the wrong hands ? *shudders* For internet banking it's got to be linux with SELinux running. Anything less is extremely dangerous.

Anyway, I've now drifted right off topic. Sorry folks :ugh:

BackPacker

3rd Feb 2009, 12:47

I was under the impression that most real time software on aircraft was *nix based due to it's reliability ?

I would not automatically assume that. Under Unix, it is still the case that a high-priority process can bump a low priority process down the bottom of the priority stack, even if that low-priority process should be executed in real-time.

For proper real-time operations, where response times *have to be* below a certain amount of milliseconds, you typically run a Real-Time operating system, which is normally very minimalistic. Or you don't run an OS at all. Looking at for instance RTLinux, the idea is that you have a mini-kernel running all real-time processes, and the Linux kernel runs as one of the non-realtime processes under that real-time kernel. Or something close to that effect.

RTLinux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTLinux)

And of course it's not just the OS. The number of cycles spent to perform a certain time-critical task have to be 100% predictable so all system calls, I/O calls and so forth also need to have an upper limit. Not something that's true in UNIX or Windows. File I/O for instance is normally blocking, but what if the file is on a network server somewhere which cannot be reached?

Less time-critical things, like the inflight entertainment system, can run directly under Linux or any other "normal" OS, *nix or otherwise and in fact they do.

- BP

(Linux user since kernel 0.95, RHCA, LPIC-2, AIX CSE and then some.)

IO540

3rd Feb 2009, 13:23

I think PP what you are actually describing is peoples' ignorance when it comes to configuring the most basic windoze security.

M$ ship the product wide open. Just like most wifi routers are shipped (and thus installed, by "ignorant" users) wide open.

Setting up wpa/psk on the router, and a few other bits like blocking the admin port, and setting a login/pwd on the windoze machine and disabling "simple file sharing" makes a pretty secure setup.

Whereas "unix" tends to be used by serious geeks and nerds :) who know a lot more about this stuff to start with.

As regards internet banking, the absolute #1 requirement is physical security of the machine. If you let kids (or careless adults going to odd websites) play on it, it will be loaded with trojans within days if not hours.

Rod1

3rd Feb 2009, 15:55

Shunter

3rd Feb 2009, 17:35

I do not understand why one would buy a unix based laptop, only to load an emulator on it to run windoze XP so they can run the software they actually need.

Specialised applications aside (and yes LH2 you are an exceptionally competent geek http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif ) unix on these tiny laptops is good for basically one thing which is running a browser.

As mentioned, WINE is not an emulator. It's an open source implementation of the Win32 API. Pedantic to some perhaps, but it's a big difference; some software actually benchmarks better on WINE than it does on Windows, games included! Stuff like NotamPlot is written in Java anyway, so doesn't suffer a lack of portability.

I have to say I find such comments disappointing; there's a great deal you can do with a Linux Eee, frequently exceeding the capabilities of Windows and none of it is particularly complicated. Windows is a 1-size-fits-all solution which simply doesn't fit all sizes. The monolithic architecture can't be chopped down in the same way that Linux can be modified to suit any need or situation; in this case a tiny, lightweight, resource-efficient mobile solution. I can run a Linux system with fluxbox, full office suite, media, comms, all flight info and planning without even using 100Mb of disc space. I can use logical volume management and software RAID the 2 SSDs to get make the thing go like the clappers.

Linux isn't difficult, just like speaking French isn't difficult. It's just different, and most certainly no longer the exclusive terrority of men with beards who wear dungarees as the Microsoft apologists would have you believe.

flybymike

3rd Feb 2009, 23:32

If there is an interpreter who speaks English on this forum, I would be pleased to hear from him.

BackPacker

4th Feb 2009, 07:48

Mike, it's simple.

Windows is like a Cessna 182. A fairly robust aircraft with not too many vices. It's a bit overkill to train on, suitable for a lot of applications, and sometimes wanting.

UNIX in general comes in many flavours. From relatively small (think Gippsland Airvan) to very large (A380), each fit for a specific purpose but too expensive to do much else.

Linux is like the experimental/homebuild/kitplane scene. It's intellectual capital consists of a large number of publicly available plans and parts, and you pick a distribution (Red Hat, Ubuntu, SuSE, Debian) that suits your needs best by offering the best combination of plans and parts you need. Like you would choose between a pre-assembled Jabiru, Europa, RV, Glasair or something else. Or you assemble it yourself from the component parts. Compared to the Cessna 182 they do require some more knowledge and skill to operate but the end result is more suited to your problem.

WINE is like putting the controls and operating characteristics (the "API") of the Cessna 182 in the cockpit of your hotrod kitbuild airplane. It's useful for those pilots (read programs) that only know how to fly Cessna 182s (read run on Windows).

VMWare (and others like MS Virtual Server and Xen) is like taking an Airbus A380 and putting a Cessna 182 inside of it, giving it its own airspace, air traffic control, runways and everything. This means that a Cessna 182 pilot can buzz around from the front to the back and generally have a good time, without impacting any other airspace users, while you take the A380 somewhere else.

PompeyPaul

4th Feb 2009, 09:07

First of all thanks for all the advice. I had decided on some form of windows based netbook as I have a variety of windows based programs for flight planning and GPS updating which I need to use as well as browsing the net. If I could be sure the apps would work on a Linux system with an “emulator” then I would be happy with this. If the stuff does not work or I have to spend days struggling then it would be a big mistake. How big is the risk?

Rod1
Easiest life, if you want to run Win stuff, is to buy a laptop than runs windows natively. Buying a linux machine, and installing WinXP might fail if you can't get the drivers you need for your hardware. If you buy a Win laptop, pretty much everything will run out of the box. It may run slowly, it may be insecure, but it will all run and you'll find (fairly expensive) support for it at your local pc world.

If you don't mind fiddling with your machine and want something more reliable then buy a linux machine and run your apps through wine, or through a VM.