Danger Areas, please explain?

[Vems]

How do you know on what latitudes it is between without using a map? There's an exercise in Air Law book, question 38. I understand what they are i just don't get how you tell what latitudes it is between without using a map?

The question is..
A section of airspace designated as D703/15 is a Danger area located between latitudes .... and .... extending from surface to an altitude of 15 000ft.

The answer is between 57'N and 58'N, but how can you tell without using a map? :confused:

[wheelbrace]

Hello, Vems;

As I understand it, your example can be split into five sections

D: shows it is a danger area as opposed to restricted or prohibited
7: shows that north of 57° there be dragons - the only digit that applies to the latitude
03: is the danger area descriptor - in case there are other danger areas at this latitude (this is an assumption on my part...)
/: shows that you are about to get a limit
15: in this case means sfc-15000' amsl

Once again, as I understand it, it is merely to give you an indication, so if your GPS says that you are at N56°59'59.99" you *should* be safe.

This will, of course, mean you don't have to explain those 7.62mm mothholes in the canvas...

Look in the AIP ENR5.1 for them all and it should become clear when you have examined a few examples.

Regards,

Patrick

[2close]

All latitudes in the UK are 50-something or other (except for the islands to the very far north of Scotland which are 60's).

Therefore, simply take the first digit of the Dange Area code and that will tell you what latitude it lies to the north of.

D117 - North of 51 degrees North
D307 - North of 53 degrees North

You will note that some cross the line of latitude, e.g. D203 (mid Wales) originates north of 51 degrees North but the majority lies to the north of 52 degrees North, hence the '2' designator. Similarly, D308 lies in the majority to the north of 53 degrees North with a portion to the south of the latitude.

The next two digits are simply numerical idenitifiers and have no geographical relevance.

D703/15 lies to the north of 57 degrees north, is Danger Area No.03 and extends to 15,000' AMSL.

HTH

2close

Edit to Add: Sorry, Patrick, we crossed over!

[JohnRayner]

I know I didn't post the query, but thanks for the answers! I knew the number after the slash related to the height of the D/R zone, but didn't understand how the other number was derived. And now I do!



Ta! :ok:

JR

[Yellow Sun]

On a purely historical note:

03: is the danger area descriptor - in case there are other danger areas at this latitude (this is an assumption on my part...)


In the dim and distant past when the current system of numbering danger areas was first adopted the second and third digits represented the numbering of the areas within the latitude band, from west to east.

Thus D001 was off St Mawgan, and still is, D002 was in St Austell Bay, but is no longer in existence and D003 is in the Plymouth Exercise areas etc. However with the deletion of some areas and the addition of new ones the system is no longer coherent.

YS

[Vems]

Thanks guys! I got it now :p I studied the whole book and I was trying to work that out and I couldn't so actually decided to post it. As I thought it's nothing hard! :)

Thanks again!

Vems.

[RTN11]

What Air Law exam are you taking?

I've just passed ATPL Air Law and had no idea about this.

[Whirlygig]

It's covered in the UK JAA PPL syllabus; the ATPL syallbus is based on ICAO law.

Cheers

Whirls

[wheelbrace]

Yellow Sun - aka Stephen Fry. Genius!

Those were the days, when coherence and logic reigned supreme in the CAA. Must have been before conversion to an agency. This did crop up in the ATPL examination preparation... hence the only reason that I know where to find the reference in Thom's tomes.

I wonder why west to east? Does it switch at the prime meridian just to add a bit of spice? My kind of nav. - I'm either in the Cotswolds or Norfolk - only in the UK could this happen!

[Otto Throttle]

Just remember some danger areas belong to the Navy and need to be given a very wide berth indeed. They don't like or understand flying contraptions. :}

[Mike.Park]

I remember studying Danger Areas in Trevor Thom's Air law manual and it covered this very area.

Apart from needing to know this for your PPL theory exams, it does come in handy later on.

If you've got an appreciation for distances based on Lat figures, you'll know if your heading towards or away from a danger area without having to look at a map.

Also, if a danger area is activated through NOTAM, you'll know by it's designated number if it's going to affect your flight plan or pose a hazard - again you won't need to refer to a map.

[Vems]

It's covered in the manuals, yes, but it's not explained how you got the number and what they stand for. :eek: So I was a bit confused, but as I've read your post guys, it seems like a pretty simple thing. I'm not doing ATPL yet, just starting PPL and hoping to get air law out of the way asap.:)

Thanks guys!

Vems

[captain_rossco]

I love learning without trying, great thread. How much more interesting facts are, when backed up with reasons.

Now onto CAA charges, Anyone?????????????????

Regards

CR:}

P.S I have a ream of official CAA "licence quality" plain A4 paper, 100 sheets £2500 ono...............Hijack over

[MedusaThrills]

All latitudes in the UK are 50-something or other (except for the islands to the very far north of Scotland which are 60's).

Therefore, simply take the first digit of the Dange Area code and that will tell you what latitude it lies to the north of.

D117 - North of 51 degrees North
D307 - North of 53 degrees North

You will note that some cross the line of latitude, e.g. D203 (mid Wales) originates north of 51 degrees North but the majority lies to the north of 52 degrees North, hence the '2' designator. Similarly, D308 lies in the majority to the north of 53 degrees North with a portion to the south of the latitude.

The next two digits are simply numerical idenitifiers and have no geographical relevance.

D703/15 lies to the north of 57 degrees north, is Danger Area No.03 and extends to 15,000' AMSL.

HTH

2close

I am a bit confused still.
With the
"D117 - North of 51 degrees North
D307 - North of 53 degrees North"

How do you know it is north? You also say the next two digits (marked in bold) are simple numerical identifers and have no geographical value. What is the point of this then? Would appreciate if you expanded on this. Sorry for being a newbie :) Dont ask, dont learn:ok:

So for example;
D307 / 12 - This would be 53 degrees North, ........ and extends to 12000ft AMSL ?

edit: I saw you wrote that the numerical value (07 in above example) is the danger area number. What is this? Are there certain different degrees of dangers in the UK?

[PPRuNe Radar]

D: shows it is a danger area as opposed to restricted or prohibited
7: shows that north of 57° there be dragons - the only digit that applies to the latitude
03: is the danger area descriptor - in case there are other danger areas at this latitude (this is an assumption on my part...)
/: shows that you are about to get a limit
15: in this case means sfc-15000' amsl

Once again, as I understand it, it is merely to give you an indication, so if your GPS says that you are at N56°59'59.99" you *should* be safe.

That's quite a dangerous assumption. The 'latitude' indication is merely to give you a hint as to where you need to start looking when checking your chart to see if any Danger Area activity is going to affect your flight.

As another poster stated, Danger Areas can, and do, cross lines of latitude. The numerical indicator only gives a clue as to where the bulk of the area lies. You still need to consult your chart to ensure you will not be flying through any active areas.

As an example, the EGD323 complex starts down in the 53N area but extends almost all the way North to 55N. So anyone flying within EGD323C on the assumption they are OK because their GPS reads N54 40 00 and *should* be safe might get a surprise !!

I am a bit confused still.
With the
"D117 - North of 51 degrees North
D307 - North of 53 degrees North"

How do you know it is north? You also say the next two digits (marked in bold) are simple numerical identifers and have no geographical value. What is the point of this then? Would appreciate if you expanded on this. Sorry for being a newbie Dont ask, dont learn

Don't get hung up on the North aspect. Danger Areas can cross lines of latitude. Think of it more as a 'lying between' system. So anything with 3 will (in the main) be lying between 53N and 54N but could also lie South of 53N or North of 54N in part, anything with 7 will (in the main) be lying between 57N and 58N but could lie South of 57N or North of 58N in part, and so on.

The next 2 digits are the unique identifiers for each specific Danger Area. There are many areas of latitude with more than one Danger Area within them, so this is essential so that everyone knows which specific one is being referred to. You can't just say it's EGD3 ''the funny shaped one near that town with the railway bridge'' or EGD3 ''the one where the RAF fire missiles near Wales''.

Danger Areas can also be further divided so that those which form part of the same complex (or an adjacent grouping of linked Danger Areas if you prefer) are given the same identifier number but are then uniquely identified with the addition of a letter, e.g A, B, C, etc. As an example, EGD701 is the core Danger Area for the South Uist rocket range, but depending on the missiles being fired, they might need to sterilise a larger piece of airspace. So they can also open EGD701A, EGD701B, EGD701C, EGD701D, EGD701E, etc, if they need to. This will be done either by specifying opening and closing times in the AIP, or by issuing an appropriate NOTAM.

There are no classes showing different degrees of danger, only different types of Danger Area status. Some are Managed Danger Areas, in that activities are co-ordinated between miltary and civil ATC agencies for access on a dynamic tactical basis. Some are permanent Danger Areas and are active H24. Some are notified as active with times in the AIP. Some are only activated by NOTAM. Some are Temporary and won't be on any chart, for example high seas firing of guns, missiles, and rockets by naval warships outwith the published Danger Areas - these are in NOTAMS. Or it might be a Temporary area established for SAR Ops.

Some you can fly through if you choose (although airmanship and the fact you are possibly endangering an aircraft should make this choice for you). Others you are legally prevented from entering by Statutory Instrument.

In all cases, the type of activity or the agency using the area is specified in the UK AIP or the NOTAM. This gives an indication of what you are likely to encounter should you enter, and you can assess for yourself the danger you are likely to be in. :ok:

[wheelbrace]

What an inspired thread!

Just to clarify - 'North of' means just that. Unless you are treating the earth like a boiled egg, ie carefully lopping off the cap at latitude 58 north, then D703/15 extends to the true north pole.

As Thom (peace be upon him) notes, these are all in a Northerly direction - the British Isles being designed this way means that cartographers can save on chart congestion and ink!

I wouldn't fly within a gnat's knacker of this latitude, but it does mean at the planning stage I know where to look on my chart for the midden and if, in this case, I am flying between latitudes 52 and 53 I can strike a line through that NOTAM entry without looking further.

BUT...

If the area is circular, is the datum point set at the centre of the circle or still, as is logical, at the lowest whole latitude? I am beginning to scare myself here!

[PPRuNe Radar]

then D703/15 extends to the true north pole.

Tain doesn't have to be that big ... it's mainly used by Tornados who wouldn't have that range :)

[wheelbrace]

PPRune Radar - just you wait until the US and Russian Confederation start to squabble over the oil deposits... danger area boundaries will creep!