Filming flying lessons?

[hightower1986]

I know ill probably get some stupid comments for this but was wondering if people film there lessons whilst doing the ppl, where do you mount the camera? is there anything you can buy to get the radio onto the video also? im wanting to keep a video diary/blog of my progress, cheers

[BackPacker]

Video - depends on the aircraft and the mission. I was involved in a filming project a few months ago where we used a Robin R2160 to shot aerobatics video. This is a two seater with a rather high baggage shelf behind the seats. We used a stand made from one of those steps you use to step into your caravan, strapped it down real tight with ratchet straps and used that to mount the cameras. We then secured literally everything with tie-wraps. You really need something solid, a clamp or stand or something like that to mount it to an airframe part. Use a camera with a wide lens so that it can see the instruments in addition to the outside world through the front windscreen. We also had a keyhole camera mounted on the windshield next to the compass, pointing backwards, with the recording unit mounted in the back on said stand.

Audio - the audio output that goes into your headset is a regular DIN something so if you arrange a splitter cable for a regular headphone you can use that for audio in into the camera. Not much adjustment needed.

Personally, i wouldn't bother for a PPL lesson. It took us a good three-four hours to get everything mounted and set up.

[18greens]

Or use an aircraft thats already fitted for video.

[yawningdog]

1) I have put a video tripod in the back of a 4 x seater, 2 x legs on the rear floor, the third leg went between the rear seats. Held down by a bungee cord.

Landing a Cirrus SR20 at Blackbushe, UK on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1252914)


2) My other way is by using a simple window suction mount which takes 10 seconds to set up:

Camera Suction pads and Vacuum mounts (http://www.b-hague.co.uk/camera_suction_pads_vacuum_mounts.htm)

.

[17thhour]

http://www.eaa.org/apps/blog/learntofly/Default.aspx


Heres a link to a guy who is filming his lessons out of Oshkosh, USA...
I've been following it since day 1 and it seems to be working well with his set up.

[hightower1986]

looks impressive, good angle! Guess being creative is the main thing, how far away from the instruments would you recomend? the side mount suction pads for about £15 look alright just wondering if it would be strong enough for my little camcorder?

[17thhour]

*****...Noticed that we just posted at the exact same time so not sure if you will notice my last post on the thread...*****

[fernytickles]

Why not post your question on the Earning My Wings blog? Brady would be able to tell you all the gadgets he's using and how they are set up.

[yawningdog]

...how far away from the instruments would you recommend?

I suppose it a matter or trial & error. My camera is High Def so from that distance on the tripod, the digital readouts are fairly readable. I suppose your instructor will have something to say about where you put the camera!

Perhaps the most important thing is to get the exposure right, consumer video cameras are terrible this. Unless you are lucky with the sun behind you, or its a very dull day, you will find that either the interior is too dark, or the exterior is too bright. The only way around that is to separately light the interior which is obviously overkill.

Sound? You need to have an external mike socket on the camera from which you plug into the pax headphone socket, or use a Y-splitter plug from either the pilot or copilot headphone sockets. Another way is to use a separate sound recorder like an Mp3 recorder.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The best trick for recording sound, in my experience, is to use a little tie-clip microphone and tuck it inside one cup of your headset.

G

[hightower1986]

thanks for your concerns lordmontague :ugh: but i was only really after the helpful comments like the previous posters on how to film it, ill worry about the legal side of things and how dangerous it will be! Thanks to the rest for the useful tips and videos.:ok:

[flyingman-of-kent]

I always thought that as I did the first hours of my PPL that it would be so useful to be able to review each lesson later - it is a shame that all trainers are not video equiped. (Could be a good revenue source for the shcool too).

I think I would at least take a look at the legal issues involved before dismissing them completely, as it could have some major ramifications for all concerned if there were to be a problem later on.

In terms of the technology, it is all about getting small cameras mounted where you need them feeding into something to retain the images - could be a laptop for IP cameras, rather than a big heavy camera which would need much heavier mounting. If expense is no object have a look at the Axis range of IP cameras - they do some specifically designed for mounting in vehicles.

[smithgd]

I realised early on in my CPL training that recording the conversations would be usefull. So I did the tie-clip mic and headset trick using a digital dictaphone recorder thingy. It worked brilliantly, so I did the same during my MEP IR training! You will be amazed how much you don't take in and what you and your instructor miss!!

As for filming, have thought about it but not tried it.

[BackPacker]

LM, could you please separate the issues of safety and legality in your posts?

I trust that the flying lessons are in a public transport aircraft. By attaching a camera to the aircraft without a CAA or EASA minor mod invalidates the C of A. And no, it can not be classed as baggage. I am surprised that your instructors are allowing you to this sort of dangerous activity.

If you install a light camera with a suction cup or clamp, do you seriously think that's illegal? And where is the line then? If I install my handheld GPS with a clamp on the yoke or with a suction cup on the window, is that illegal too? Or if I put my checklist on the panel with a clip of some kind? Do you have a reference for this?

Look forward to watching the video of you or your instructor being bashed over the head by a tripod & camera, I am sure that it will get many laughs on Youtube.

Great attitude. Particularly since safety/security was not discussed at all up to you posting that comment.

Personally, I think everybody has the common sense so make sure that the suction cup is big enough to hold the camera in question, even under vibration or g-loads. And then you'd still use a tie-wrap or something else to make a secondary attachment to somewhere.

[hightower1986]

hurrah for backpacker (and others) :D, good to see someone else has the same views as myself, its not that i dont care for the law etc blah blah, just all i wanted was a few ideas to film my lessons or hour building! i like the tie mic trick, as radio is one thing ill probably mess up easily! so would be good to listen to it again! i only have a relatively basic sony Hard disc camcorder but would like the videos all the same. cheers guys

[Mike Parsons]

With regards to sound, if, like mine your camcorder does not have an external mic socket then one option would be to buy a 15 quid Minidisc recorder from ebay and then either:

use a 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable (plugging into a 3.5mm to 1/4" jack) for a 4 seater

or

get a 1/4" jack splitter, use one for your headset and one for your minidisc recorder - for a 2 seater

Thank you for posting the camcorder suction mount! Will run that by my instructor.

IF, for any reason your school doesn't like the whole idea of suction mounts, then you could do one of those 2 people + instructor trial lessons, where one fly one way and one fly the return leg. You can bribe them to be cameraman/woman for the day :D

[TheGorrilla]

RE: [Aus-soaring] UK Accident Report (http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg09083.html)

They weren't even attempting anything aerobatic. Be careful chaps!

[percy prentice]

And it wasn't even on a tripod. In my days you had to empty your pockets of loose articles on any flight. So perhaps suckers are not a good idea if you ask me.

[percy prentice]

Has any body tried one of these ? They seem small enough not to worry about .
Oregon Scientific ATC5K Action Camera. £140 ish by the looks of it. Am i correct that as most aircraft have perspex windows suckers don't work too well ?

[Fright Level]

Isn't it a little spineless that a post is pulled that makes this thread a little disjointed?

[BackPacker]

Yes. I seem to remember that lordmontague actually posted two or three posts in this thread which infuriated some people a bit (well, me at least). Glad I quoted the worst parts, otherwise I would be seen as a raving lunatic!

(Which I am, but that's beside the point.)

[IO540]

I've done filming with sounds too.

It is damned hard to find a small (bullet-type) camera which is of reasonable quality. I bought a Sony one for about £150 and it was barely acceptable for a u-tube video. There is a better Sony one for about £750 but I haven't yet got around to getting to try it.

A camcorder will be much better quality and those suction mounts (thanks for the URL!) should work great, but on a long flight you will run out of tape / storage and then the camera stops. I am not aware of a consumer camcorder which can be used minus the media but with a video output i.e. effectively as a high quality webcam.

The last movie I did used a analog to RGB (USB2.0) converter for about £50 which was actually of very high quality (I tested it with my Sony HD cam to make sure).

The sound is easily done by tucking a mike into one's headset, though wiring it to a headset mike plug is a lot neater (does anyone have a circuit for this?? - I believe one needs to attenuate the signal a bit).

Getting rid of reflections ranges from tricky to very tricky. The proper solution - for external scenery movies; not what the OP here is after - is to mount the camera externally but that is then not exactly legal, and does need to be done very carefully because you don't want it to come off and e.g. jam in the elevator...

If anyone is interested I can supply details of what I used, and the URL to the movie. The camera came from dogcamsport.co.uk I think and for all I know I may have listed all the kit here at some time in the past.

[percy prentice]

Yes iI have been following the thread & have noticed that LM's comments have been pulled....something dark is happening ??? Big brother.??..I am looking over my shoulder as i am typing :bored:. He did have valid points to make as I think Gorrilla has shown in his post. Yes i think bullet type cameras are the answer & there are solid state recorders out there that are small & probably can do the job but I would really question whether it is worth all the hassle. A hand held camera to record clips as and when it is not detracting from the learning to fly bit is probably the answer. There is enough pressure learning to fly let alone filming it at the same time. What are your thoughts Hightower ?

[BackPacker]

though wiring it to a headset mike plug is a lot neater (does anyone have a circuit for this?? - I believe one needs to attenuate the signal a bit).

I was assisting in doing the setup for filming some aerobatics and it wasn't my equipment, but from what I remember it was a regular stereo headphone Y-splitter plus a long male-to-male cable which plugged directly into the cameras "mic in". No attenuation or other sound processing needed although you might need to play a bit with the volume controls.

[VFE]

I would imagine not too many instructors will be keen to have you film every lesson. Logistics of setting up aside, they'll be opening themselves up to all sorts of possible scrutiny from peers should it find its way onto youtube. I personally would happily accept the challenge however, we had this discussion amongst us instructors recently and I was a minority of one out of nine. The main objection was the distraction aspect, because there's bound to be some even if it's pre-flight... I guess they have a point really because once at the airfield your attention should be firmly on the objectives of your lesson and not worrying about what camera angle you're going to get etc... but if someone else took care of that leaving you, the student, to concentrate on your lesson I personally wouldn't mind.

VFE.

[yawningdog]

On that basis, the flying club should be quite happy as the more distractions, the more lessons it will take to get the licence!:)

[IO540]

I can't imagine many instructors going for this, looking at how much stuff ends up on u-tube etc.

With a trusted student or a friend it would be fine. Or perhaps the odd flight, but the whole PPL? I doubt it. Also 99% of the footage would be utterly boring - I can vouch for that from my flights. I often video really spectacular bits like bits of a flight across the Alps; they are good for trip reports. But from inside the cockpit? Not a lot to see there.

[hightower1986]

well thanks for all the comments everyone didnt see Lm's comments were removed, sorry were we mean!?:oh: I was only really wanting to film a few bits of my flying, first solo, yeah sure ill have enough to worry about was just if there was a good way to quickly pop up a camera, the rest of the filming would be me, hour building etc, landings, circuits just to review and for friends and family to see, im obviously not just going to wack a camera in and say im filming tough! its down to my instructor and the CFI, just was after the ideas on how, thanks for the comments and its always good to see people having a good debate, apart from extreme comments, not naming names, (SEE ABOVE):rolleyes:

[BackPacker]

didnt see Lm's comments were removed, sorry were we mean!?

We were not mean but he was wrong and not decent enough to admit it. At least that's the only explanation I can think of. What he said was not nearly bad enough to get him banned from the forum, or to get his posts removed altogether.

[percy prentice]

We were not mean but he was wrong and not decent enough to admit it

LM contacted me through a different medium when somebody reported him & he is now in a situation of signing in & getting constant server busy messages. No explanation or telling off from the powers that be. I have signed on to the forum using his "Purdey" laptop with no problems.

Whoever had the hissy fit & hit the button should really take stock of their actions, this stopped him from explaining his position. I must say having seen some other posts elsewhere this was like a transcript from a vicar's tea party.

I understand that he wanted to make it clear that he did not want to upset anybody but felt strongly that a person just embarking on learning to fly should understand that safety & legislation are perhaps the major part of aviation, some good & some very silly rules but we have to constantly be aware & not dismiss them so readilly.

Anyway I have earnt a days Pheasant shooting on his estate by conveying his thoughts. The upshot may be that he will be more civil to his servants now. I am sure he will make a post to confirm this if he is ever allowed back on.

[VFE]

On that basis, the flying club should be quite happy as the more distractions, the more lessons it will take to get the licence!

Not true.

It really is a shame that some cynical people think this way about flying clubs. Of course, the really galling aspect of this viewpoint is that nobody will ever say something like this directly to our faces.

If you are interested in the reality of the situation then I will tell you that the vast majority of flying schools and instructors want their students through as quickly as is safely possible because it broadcasts competancy and professionalism which is worth twice as much in terms of business than a few extra hours drawn out of a student through sheer greed. It all comes down to pride. No school or instructor is making vast amounts of money from you, the overheads would shock you. The extra hour here and there is nothing.

I am quite insulted that people may think like you do. Risking my arse everyday, helping you all out in my spare time, flying for pennies... and you think I do it for money? Or that my boss does it for money?

We do it because we love it. Your smile when you pass the skills test is our motivation, not money my friend.

VFE.

[yawningdog]

It was in jest, hence the smilie...Why on earth would anyone start a flying school to make money!!

[Romeo India Xray]

Ok, I am going to come at this one from both sides.

1 With my instructor hat on, I would love to be able to review and critique my own performance in order to continually improve - well I am in the process of implementing TEM and LOSA in my day job. I also think this would be valuable for most students and would probably serve to reduce training time for those students unable to fly on a regular basis.

2 With my instructor hat on, I would be more than a little wary about the consequences of loose articles in the aircraft - I would want the installation of any article as significant as a normal sized camera to be installed and certified by an engineer, even if this does mean a minor mod.

3 With my day job hat on, I may just suggest in flight cameras as a means of moving forward. Provided flight video can be collated by an impartial 3rd party there is the possibility to glean a lot of data that would otherwise be swept under the carpet at the back of the cranium.

RIX

[hightower1986]

Someone reported him? certainkly wasnt me, im not that petyy was just a little bemused that he posted what he did as i only wanted a decent answer on how to not why i should or should not etc, like i say im only planning on filming a few bits and also hour building, obviously i would like to think that my instructor wiould have the sense to decide if this was feasible or not!

[TheGorrilla]

Anyway I have earnt a days Pheasant shooting on his estate by conveying his thoughts. The upshot may be that he will be more civil to his servants now.

What a jolly fine fellow he must be!!! Does he lend you his Range Rover and black lab from time-to-time too?

[fernytickles]

More than just LM's comments were removed. I had posted the link to Brady Lane's EAA blog as well, and that disappeared along with LM's posts and, I believe some others. So maybe it was not just a Big Brother thing. Whatever, life goes on.

Anyone seen the latest post on his blog?

[hightower1986]

keeps saying service uanavilable when i try to see his blog!? any ideas fernytickles? even outside of pprune

[percy prentice]

I have just returned the black labrador & 4 wheel drive drive I borrowed from Lordmontague (thanks Gorilla) & he reckons that he was shot at on the last pheasant shoot of the season...... reckons it was a moderator that recognised him.:)

He still can't log on & no explanation for it. Don't worry he assures me that he will be back soon & will say hello to all on this thread. He wishes Hightower all the best on his ppl training

Try putting in the word "T R I P O D" I think you will find that this goes straight to the moderator ....weird !

[fernytickles]

Hightower,

The whole website is down for some reason. I'm sure some poor soul will be missing the Super Bowl so they can sort out the website problems... Should be up again soon (or at least as soon as the game is over..... :} )

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:
I trust that the flying lessons are in a public transport aircraft. By attaching a camera to the aircraft without a CAA or EASA minor mod invalidates the C of A. And no, it can not be classed as baggage. I am surprised that your instructors are allowing you to this sort of dangerous activity.

Weird, I have been using a camcorder for years to record some portions of the training.

I never got any regulator permission for the method I used to have the camcorder in the airplane.

Maybe I am being dangerous and should quit doing this?

[IO540]

Of course it is NOT illegal to use portable video equipment in an aircraft.

If it was permanently mounted that is something else, in terms of paperwork.

Powering it from say the cigar lighter is OK too. If the aircraft electrical system was modified to bring out power sockets to plug things into, that needs a signoff, and perhaps a load analysis.

People make such simple things so complicated.

What I wonder is whether anybody has yet mounted a camera externally, by attaching it internally (e.g. with suction cups to the internal surface of the window) and having it poking out through the little opening window which many planes have. That would avoid the usual cockpit reflections and would be a simple solution to both the practical and the legal issues.

BTW, large chunks of this thread seem to have gone missing.

[DavidHoul52]

From my own experience I don't believe filming in the air is worth the trouble. A suction mount on the rear side window works well, but then you only have one angle - yours truly at the controls and perhaps the runway when on final approach. The headcams move around too much. May be ok as a record but I wouldn't torture any third party into watching it. Another camera pointing at the scenery is a good idea but really you need to have someone film from another aircraft to capture what is happening aerodynamically. It all gets very boring after a while - better just to enjoy the moment (if you can while the instructor is screaming at you :}). Still photographs are another matter and often have a unique beauty all of their own.

[Chippik]

you could use a helmet mounted cam, might fit onto headset otherwise im sure there are different mountings including suction cups etc. These things are light (seen footage from an army patrol in Afghanistan using such equipment). Take a look at this website - I am looking into this as well for various applications
Helmet camera bullet cameras from dogcamsport (http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/)

[DavidHoul52]

You don't want a camera that moves every time your head moves! I thought we were talking about "film making"? Watch some TV/DVD/film/anything and notice how little the camera moves. Compare this with footage taken with a headcam on You Tube etc. Awful!