Logbook Question

[dom462]

I have a question about looging hours in my logbook.

I use the hours minutes method to log by hours rather than the hours decimal method.

If I fly an aircraft where the taco hours do not equal the number of hours flown, which one should I log?

For example I fly from 12:00 to 13:15, but this only shows up as 1 taco hour on the hobbs. Do I log 1:15 and keep the above times as they are or do I log one hour and adjust my times?

[danielk]

If you're talking about your personal logbook then tachotime has nothing to do with it at all!
If you're airborne 1:15 you log that+12 minutes for taxiing.

The A/C I've been flying for most of my PPL training generally gives me 1.0 airborne for 0.7-0.8 tachohours!

[dom462]

Yes I am talking about my personal logbook. I have never logged any additional taxi time like that. I always log engine on to engine off.

[Choxolate]

Your question is very confusing. Are you saying the tacho meter (or is it a Hobbs meter) is showing exactly 1 hour but the engine has been running for 1hour 15minutes (1.2 hours)?

The time in your Pilot log book (or are you talking about the airframe log book?) should be the time you ACTUALLY spent in command of the aircraft whilst it was under it's own power. This would include taxi times as well as airborne time.

Does you engine meter (of what ever type it is) record the engine running time? If it is a Hobbs meter type it may not start recording until you exceed a threshold airspeed (usually about 40 knots) so that it records airborne time, rather than engine running time, for the airframe log book.

[S-Works]

Yes I am talking about my personal logbook. I have never logged any additional taxi time like that. I always log engine on to engine off.

Dom, that's wrong. You log from the moment the aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until brakes on. NOT engine time.

[Floppy Link]

...or from the time the rotors start turning with the intention of getting airborne to the time they stop at the end of the trip (if yer a heli-mate)
:ok:

[S-Works]

When I was doing my PPL H I was told it was from the point of lift off to touch down not from rotors turning. In fact the datacon on the R22 started when the collective was lifted.

[AJMortimer]

As is usual in these cases, there is an official publication in which a definition can be found. The easiest one to access in this situation is probably LASORS (which can be downloaded from the CAA website free of charge).

LASORS (which is invaluable in any event) addresses this issue in Section A, Appendix B. An extract is copied below:

Aeroplane flight time

An aeroplane shall be deemed to be in flight from the
moment the aircraft moves under its own power for the
purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at
the end of the flight.

Helicopter flight time

The total time from the moment a helicopters rotor blades
start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes
to rest at the end of the flight and the rotor blades are
stopped.

Most other matters are discussed in this Section of the publication.

Additionally, if a pilot carries out a series of flights on the same day (such as glider towing or parachute dropping) returning to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such a series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.

AJ

[BackPacker]

I know that a lot of PPLs use engine on/engine off instead of off blocks/on blocks for their personal logbook.

Reason? You've got to record engine on/engine off and true flight time in any case for aircraft logbook purposes.

Furthermore, the operator may charge you for any of the following, depending on the operators policy:
- Engine on/engine off time, usually measured with a hobbs meter connected to the engine master (if FADEC equipped) or oil pressure sensor.
- Engine tacho time. Note that a tacho runs proportional to your RPMs, so taxi time is cheap.
- Flight time, usually measured with a hobbs meter connected to the pitot/static system or a pressure-on-wheels sensor.
Or any of the above plus or minus a taxi allowance.

So what goes into your personal logbook, what goes into the aircraft logbook and what the bill is based on, is normally different. Only if you have a hobbs meter connected to the engine master or oil pressure sensor can you use this as a reasonable number to put in your personal logbook.

[AJMortimer]

The way you record flight time for the purposes of your logbook is with a watch.

You note the time 'off chocks', the time 'airborne', the 'landing' time and the time 'on chocks'. It has always been so. I cannot understand this confusion - where are the instructors who taught these pilots and why was that not made clear? The manner in which logbooks should be completed is shown in the preface pages of most commercially available Pilot Logbooks, in addition to official sources mentioned previously.

Aircraft, as opposed to pilot, logbooks (tech logs) may require take-off and landing times with an agreed addition for taxying. They may be based on Hobbs Meter time. But this has no relevance whatsoever when discussing pilot flying time, albeit that they could, of course, be the same times - especially when recording time to the nearest 5 minutes which is standard practice! The method of billing, again is of no relevance.

I just don't understand why no-one has explained all of the above to the pilots in question at some stage during their training, or afterwards?!

AJ

[Whirlygig]

Although not entirely relevant to this thread, there is an error in LASORS regarding helicopter time. The ANO states:-

Article 35

3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.

Cheers

Whirls

[AJMortimer]

Nothing's ever simple!

AJ

[S-Works]

Thanks Whirly, that is what I was taught. Basically we took time from the datcon as it started when the collective was lifted to start flight.

As far as fixed wing is concerned I personally only log take off to landing as it comes straight out of the GPS. My students get the brakes off to brakes on time as allowed, certainly not engine run time.

[AJMortimer]

Well that's wrong.

You can't have a student logging a different time to the instructor, nor can it be at variance to the Act.

Reference to the Air Navigation Order reveals:

Article 15(4)(a): the commander shall enter in the technical log 'the times when the aircraft took off and landed'. So for the aircraft it's the take off and landing times.

Article 35(3): For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.

Article 155(2) An aircraft shall be deemed to be in flight—

(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its own power until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing;

So, in summary:

The AIRCRAFT times are take off to landing, as per the tech log. (Article 15(4)(a));

The PILOT of a fixed wing aircraft logs time in accordance with Article 155(2)(a) from 'chocks off' to 'chocks on';

The PILOT of a HELICOPTER logs time from the time it first moves to when the blades stop turning (Article 35(3)(a)).

The FLYING SCHOOL charges whatever it likes, in accordance with its schedule of charges which will usually be based on take off and landing times, plus, maybe, an allowance for taxying - but this varies and does not, necessarily relate to chock to chock times - but it may do!

So, going back to my original statement, if you log 'chock off', 'take off', 'landing' and 'chocks on' you have covered all bases!

If your flying school or group requires Hobbs Meter times, or the like, (and most do) then with that information you have all the information you could possibly require.

Just a matter of remembering to make a note of the times!!! You can always ask ATC for take off and landing times if you are stuck.

I hope that helps - it's kept me out of mischief for a while!

AJ





AJ

[pilotmike]

In fact the datacon on the R22 started when the collective was lifted.
Almost every R22 I've known clocks datcon time on engine oil pressure, ie from engine start to engine stop.

In contrast, most R44 datcons clock on collective time.

[S-Works]

You can't have a student logging a different time to the instructor, nor can it be at variance to the Act.

I don't think anyone was saying in variance to the act. I log my time from the GPS logs so the discrepancy between myself and the student would be the taxi time rarely more than a minute or two and certainly absorbed in the 'swedish rounding' used to take the numbers to the nearest five minutes.

Almost every R22 I've known clocks datcon time on engine oil pressure, ie from engine start to engine stop.

My experience of the type is rather more limited but I was assured that it was from the collective.

[AJMortimer]

Bose-X

Understood.

It's just at some large airports taxy times can be extensive. Holding before departure has - in my experience - sometimes added an extra 30 minutes or more to the 'flight'!

Cheers

AJ

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So what goes into your personal logbook, what goes into the aircraft logbook and what the bill is based on, is normally different. Only if you have a hobbs meter connected to the engine master or oil pressure sensor can you use this as a reasonable number to put in your personal logbook.
Or if the club charges you from block to block based on the hirer's watch.