PTC in trouble?

[whingeofpilots]

Have been hearing a lot of rumours that PTC are having money trouble and problems with students? So taught I might list them..

Flight Safety have finished with them in the states
They have downsized their Instructors in Waterford from 8 to 3
Moving out of Airport and into industrial estate
Students a while back refused to fly or do ground because they wanted more money
All the special cases are sent to Skytrace in Weston

Again not saying any of it is true but theres no smoke without fire:confused:

[a797]

Looks like PTCs overpriced rubbish course and awful treatment of students is finally catching up with them. Graduates have been advising people to steer clear of the place for a long time now, must be taking a heavy toll on new enrollments, especially in the current climate.

[2close]

Moving out of Airport and into industrial estate

"Cleared to taxi to the junction of the A45 and B424 - watch out for the traffic lights and no stopping at the burger van" ;)

When you finish for the day, put the plane in the lock-up!!

[drag king]

Students a while back refused to fly or do ground because they wanted more money

Really? Kyle always told us that GS was free-of-charge for the students of the glittering Airline Program...:E

He always told us we could get as much as we wanted since it was "included" in the 98k + bucks!!! I still wonder why FIs were FORCED to deliver GS when WX was crap in the sunny SE IRL then...:{

Anyway...

Happy landings

DK ;)

[738bus]

So happy to hear that! trained there years ago and got robbed!!!!! since then try'd to warn people away and STILL got sucked in by there fancy wings and bars on there shoulders! I don't even know where to start wit the story's iv heard first hand since then.

It great feeling when I get pulled aside by the management pilots in my airline asking "did you train in that PTC"

Anyway their bridges are burnt wit us and ALL of them said their day would come!


Yeppppeeeeeeeeee :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[allgreen]

Absolutely awful school getting exactly what it deserves. Closure. A sliver lining to the cloud of recession for all considering training in Ireland. Hope the IAA will keep a better watch over FTO’s in future, as the standards in PTC were scandalous.
I hope it does go down the tubes so there are no more horror storys from waterford

[Shock stall]

I am a student still currently with PTC and all does not seem such much doom and gloom as posted. Alot of the items you bring up have been discussed openly with students and reasons behind them. They put out numerous communications to students lately. The move to the industrial estate is due to they have out grown the airport facility and the other three smaller premises they are already in, in the industrial estate and are pulling it all together into one big building.

The move from FSI is a good one. The head office in New york was reducing instructors dramatically and there was no flying being done. Also 2/3 of the aircraft were not being maintained, so PTC ended the contract and joined with FIT in Melbourne where we have a brand new facility and glass cockpit aircraft. Also the instructors are way better.

PTC also now does all the VFR training in the US and the CPL is all done in the twin - bonus.

The reduction of instructors in waterford is cause they are now out in Melbourne doing the MEP and CPL in better weather. Now done in 4 weeks!

As for the course costs . I can now see exactly what I am spending- to quote them it is "fully transparent "and I can get a live update.

Don't know about the weston thing.


Other stuff that came out in the last couple of days from PTC is fuel surcharge dropping, no more utility costs.

Use of elite procedural trainer is free. Always should have been.

They also are offering past students a discounted course for those who need to renew IR.

They also did a thing for graduates to help them write CVs and do interview technique. More than any other school offers as far as I know.

I hope they are around for a while longer, well till I finish anyway.

[daraireland]

Sounds like a plant.

[neutralpoint]

i think so too :=

[Zyox]

Beauty.

http://www.hostmoon.net/%7Ebumblebe/storage/pocket%20book%20plant.jpg

[a797]

haha....ShockStall: try not to make it TOO obvious you work for ptc next time.

[Donalk]

The onus is on you Shockstall to prove that you are not PTC management.

If, as we suspect, you are part of PTC then your time would be better spent trying to sort out your house and look after your customers.

I wonder if we will hear from you again.......................

[chock2chock]

The move from FSI is a good one. The head office in New york was reducing instructors dramatically and there was no flying being done.....


FSA Is like the BEST school in the USA, I keep my ears on the ground when it comes to FSA related anything, but I haven't heard of them reducing the number of instructors. I know of a hiring postponement but reduction in instructors, no. Ive also never heard a single negative thing about their training standards....only their prices.

[purpleplane]

WOW!! I'm so glad all of this is coming out...

I'm a past student of PTC and all I can say is that since I finished I've been steering any wannabe away. far far away. what a joke of a flight school.

[Shock stall]

It is very easy to judge from the outside when you have finished or you are not currently in the school.
FSA has been up for sale twice in the last year cause it wasn't making money. The head of marketing left and went to Piper. The centre manager retired and then they brought a muppet in from a sim centre to run the place. Who knew nothing about initial training.

The place went to hell. No new instructors were brought in and the ratio to studnets on our course was 9:1 . Half the planes didn't work either.

Glad to be out in what seems to be a quality provider (FIT) but early days.

[pilotbear]

Shock Stall
PTC is no worse than any other school. There will always be students and ex students who want something for nothing, usually the ones who can't perform or produce the required standard. I'm sure you will see that on your own course, then you get all the vinyards full of sour grapes.

If the school is working for you then stick at it. Your qualifications and ability are totally your responsibility to achieve NOT the responsibility of the school, instructors, your mum or anyone else. It is not supposed to be a holiday as more than a few students appear to think. You have the access to all the information and help you could need right now so be pro-active and take advantage of it, don't wait to be led. That is not how good Captains behave. When Airlines interview they are not looking at you as an FO they are looking at you as a potential Captain so start practicing that attitude now while you can. Make your own decisions.
The real world of aviation is a lot harder than a few months at PTC and is worse right now.

Yes, there are lots of improvements that PTC and all the other schools could make but it is an expensive and difficult business to run.

Let the people here have the courage to identify themselves and give actual evidence of their complaint then we can find out how they performed at the school. But no of course that won't happen will it because they don't want you to know. Why should anyone believe an anonymous posting by an underachiever?

[pilotbear]

And one other thing 'Chocktochock' FSI are in trouble they have been trying to get rid of the Vero Beach facility for some time. Get your facts right. As for standard of training I have done three type ratings at Flight Safety and the training leaves a lot to be desired unfortunately and it is not what you would like to think it should be.

[oneinthemirror]

Why should anyone believe an anonymous posting by an underachiever?

oh come on!

just because somebody (or many people) has a bad opinion of an FTO does not automatically mean they are bitter failures. yes im sure in some cases it could well be the truth, but in the minority of situations i think. its becoming an all-too-common theme here, 'oh you have a problem do you? well youre obviously **** so sod off and shut up'

going by your logic then there must be a hell of a lot of underachievers on pprune! which is amazing really considering all the 98% pass rates and 98% job placement etc etc. pretty big 2%...

and before anyone comes on to call me a silly little twerp please note i am neither praising nor criticising PTC or any other FTO, merely making an observation about a flawed and insulting generalisation made by a previous poster.

[chock2chock]

Get your facts right. As for standard of training I have done three type ratings at Flight Safety

lol

:hmm:Unless the three type ratings were for the Piper Archer, Arrow, and Seminole....

"PILOTBEAR"
As you were talking about "facts" Doing type ratings at an FSI (Flight Safety International....various locations worldwide) center, is not the same as training training at FSA (Flight safety Academy) Vero Beach campus which is an Ab-Initio-CPL/CFI flight school. FSA its a business like any other. As with the Parent company FSI...or is it Berkshire Hathaway, trying to "get rid of it" as you so factually state is something not unusual in business- I take it you are talking about the failed sale to GTI Group and needless to say in today's current economical climate (The same thing happened at OAT not to long ago), and has nothing to do with training standards. FSA is a big academy lots and lots of planes, equipment and staff....very big etc etc



:rolleyes: I should have known better than to say "I think XXX is the best" in the PPrune Courtroom- sigh.

I think that they are damn good !!!!!!:p

[BigGrecian]

The real problem with PTC and flight safety and PTC seems to be the STUDENTS and their extremely poor behaviour which has caused Flight Safety to terminate the contract (albeit rumour)
See :
Corrupt management - jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/flight-safety-academy/75946-corrupt-management.html)

[DublinDev]

There are a lot of bitter bunnies on this thread. It's hard to generalise, but bitching about your FTO is not something I associate with mature people and successful students. In short, losers are loud.

As for Aero222, if it is true that he used to work for PTC, then I take it that he has had enough of the industry? Have you Aero222? Do you think that any FTO, anywhere will take the risk of hiring you after reading what you have posted here?

And yes, I have connections with PTC. And I happen to know that their standards are very high in every area of their business. And I know that the best students seem to have the best experience there.

Bitter rubbish like what has been posted above by whingeofpilots, a797 and 738bus is usually best ignored. Nobody will take it very seriously. Grow up, guys!

But when the bittterness spills over into dangerous and defamatory rubbish like Aero222's it needs to be rebutted.

[Yahweh]

I've been a lurker on PPRune for awhile and have yet to read a positive post about PTC and I would say that there is rairly smoke without fire but to be honest I think that anyone going for flight training is old enough or at least should be mature enough to make their own decisions.

Therefore I would say that you do your homework and visit these schools, talk to the instructors and students and get an idea of the place before handing over your money. There are plenty of them so you can afford to shop around.

Use a little common sense guys.

[bunnyhop]

i was down for my assessment recently and i can honestly say that i got a good feeling about the place. the staff are very good and the new building is taking shape. i would certainly agree that the course is very expensive, especially as the euro and sterling are so close atm. For that price you would expect to have an mcc included but you dont even get that. Im trying to secure finance for a course but im keeping my options open for now.

[daraireland]

Over priced marketing. Their FlyBe scheme is 97000€..no type rated included!! How oh how can you price a modular course at that figure?

No smoke without fire. We hear of the high prices of Oxford,CTC and FTE but to be honest there is not much complaining about them FTO's.

[acepilotmurdock]

I am currently with PTC in Florida, and can honestly say that the level of training which we are recieving is excellent. Again I am not here to get into a slagging match, as I dont have the time or the energy.
You have to be selected for the FlyBe scheme and pass a FlyBe interview, then if successful you will be accepted on the FlyBe mentored scheme, and you will recieve a combined JOC/MCC and type rating paid for by FlyBe BUT you will be bonded.
The JOC/MCC is done at Simtech which I have been informed is brilliant from people who have done the course there. If anyone has any questions regarding PTC I will try to outline the pro's and con's of the course here from an honest stand point. Cheers all :ok:

[pilotbear]

Chock to Chock - Flight Safety did not terminate the contract. The standard of training of PPL was and is very poor, I know because I had have direct contact with it. Allegedly it went wrong when the new centre managers attitude caused experienced instructors to depart leaving the hour builders.....
Issues are; PPL licence holders that can't trim, level off, hold altitude, never done a no-flap landing. No idea how to VFR navigate and speed control non-existent. If that is quality C to C, than your sim check will be fun for someone. The PPL course has to be good because it is leading on to the CPL/IR. You cannot mop up bad techniques later on.
And yes FSI is a big organisation with a lot of planes, most of them on the ground. The ramp at Melbourne is empty most of the day with everything flying. As for your other silly comments:ugh:
Aero222 - I would be careful with your 'facts'. Someone may just feel it necessary to post the facts about you.:E
So all you budding accountants (you certainly aren't pilots); where are your budget figures for running an ATPL course?
The association with Florida Institute of Aviation Technology is a good one. FIT are on the whole a very professional organisation with new facilities and aircraft. They do not rely on an out of date reputation as FSI do. The quality control is mostly very good (as in any organisation).
How many times have FSI organised a 17 aircraft student fly out for the weekend to New Orleans? You are lucky to get 30 miles out from Vero Beach. Will be a regular event.
There are rules of behaviour which have to be enforced or not. There is no point in half measures because no-one knows where the line is then. If you bend it for one person then someone else is entitled to the same. If you are not mature enough to see that you need to be at home with mummy.
The last laugh has to be that in these difficult times employers are more choosy and will see through your inadequacies at interview and you won't have a job anyway:D

[john.o.pilot]

guys, these issues are typical for most FTOs these days. I started my training in Cranfield. Tried 2 schools there. Both were horrible. Moved to Bournemouth, it wasn't perfect but school was much better than Cranfield :mad:holes. I did it modular route.

[mustanghead]

I did some of my training in Flight safety and I am now in Florida institue with PTC Florida. Don't know much about why they changed but this place is much better. very good instructors, great airplanes, and there is no messing.

[Mike Edgeworth.]

To Whom it May Concern

I feel that I am obliged to respond to a range of points made concerning PTC in this forum because the professional, dedicated and hard working people who make up PTC deserve to be defended.

I don’t despair when I read these comments because I know that they come from a very small minority of people who consist of (a) competitors
(b) a former staff member who has a grievance and a very small minority of former students who have had to have their training terminated due to
disciplinary action. I am convinced that any other professional pilot or student pilot in this industry who has a point to make regarding PTC will be up front about it and either makes it personally to me or to one of our staff. Professional pilots and professional student pilots do not hide behind
unanimous forums.

I am however, interested to hear that PTC is generating such publicity on PPrune. One would have to ask the question.. Why does an FTO with consistent above average results that has experienced consistent growth over the past 9 years attract such attention. The results that I refer to are the pass rates. Rather that quote them here why not obtain them from the Regulator. The pass rates of any FTO are the final unambiguous test of the quality of operation of the College. Without professional management, adequate resources, quality instructors and the discipline of a rigorous quality system such results would not be possible. Perhaps PTC attracts all this publicity because through its success it is ruffling some feathers.

Some points need to be clarified:


1. PTC terminated its Contract with Flight Safety Academy on 31st December 2009. The reason for this termination was simply that the Contract was due for renewal by PTC on this date. PTC received a more favorable offer to its tender for renewal from Florida Institute of Technology. Bear in mind that this was the most valuable tender offered to the GA training market in recent years consisting of training requirements for over 200 students per annum. PTC and FSI had a very good and mutually beneficial relationship for two years. When renewing Contracts all tendering organizations will carry out in-depth analyses and adopt measurement criteria that will ensure the best outcome. PTC has succeeded in achieving this objective which is beneficial for all concerned including our students.

2. PTC Entered into a new Contract with Florida Institute of Technology following a 3 month “public” tendering process. A copy of the tender is available if required.

3. PTC Ireland has moved into a brand new very modern building in the Waterford Airpark because we outgrew our facilities in the Waterford terminal building. Our growth resulted in the College operating from four separate locations in the Airpark and the Airport terminal. Operating from 4 locations at the same airport is inefficient and cumbersome so we planned and designed a new facility all under one roof in the Airpark. The new facility is modern, well laid out, bright, air-conditioned and has all facilities
necessary for staff and students.

4. All VFR training, both FAA and JAA, in now done in our brand new 10,000 sq ft purpose built school at Melbourne airport in Florida. Both FIT and PTC Florida operate from this building.

5. Jointly with FIT we train on a fleet of new “glass cockpit” Piper aircraft.

6. PTC Florida now offers a full time ATPL Theory course. The first examinations have just been completed on site in Melbourne Airport and the first time pass result was 94%.

7. I am reluctant to continue further into the claims made on PPrune. As you can see from the above, speculation is never based on facts and is therefore inaccurate and misleading.

Pilot Training College Ireland and Pilot Training College Florida are Certified Flight training Schools under JAR-FCL. They both undergo rigorous auditing through internal approved quality systems and through regular external audits carried out by independent auditors and by The Irish Aviation Authority. Should any of the standards required under JAR-FCL be found to be inadequate or less that published requirements the schools would not be permitted to maintain their Certifications.

The Management and staff of both Colleges are experiences professionals with establishes track records in their respective areas of expertise gained not only in aviation but also in many other disciplines. I have total confidence in the Management and Staff of both Colleges and I have no hesitation in stating that they are among the most dedicated and professional in the industry.

The quality systems of the Colleges will from time to time identify areas that may require change and / or improvement. This is one of the purposes of having a Quality system. If standards are not been met in a particular area remedial action is taken to rectify this situation. There are times when remedial action is not effective and on occasions as a result we have found it necessary to replace staff members. While the vast majority of our students are focused and hardworking, occasionally and in the minority of cases we may need to advise students that they are better not to continue their training or indeed we may need to terminate their training. Staff and student replacement or disciplinary measures are necessary on occasions in order to protect our standards and to ensure that we continuously provide the best possible services and facilities for the majority who are deserving of our support.

Changes in personnel can often lead to some form of reprisal and unfortunately PPrune is an ideal forum for such reprisal. Because it is an anonymous forum people who feel that they have a grievance will flock to such a forum since it affords them the ability to make false claims that they feel they will not be held accountable for. Thankfully, due to pending legislation in Europe, this practice is being brought under control as unanimous forums like PPrune will be required to disclose details of contributors where cases of deformation and slander are been pursued through the courts.


I expect that the vast majority of professionals in the aviation industry will continue to support our Colleges both in Ireland and in the USA. We are proud of what we have achieved and of our association with both Waterford Institute of Technology and Florida Tech. University in offering our Aviation degree programs, our graduates are proud of the qualifications they receive in our Colleges, we are proud of our anagement and Staff. Management and Staff are justifyably proud of the job they do and of the job satisfaction they derive from being part of our success story. Our airline customers continue to support our efforts to be the best at what we do and on April 4th next we will have the opportunity collectively to celebrate our success at the Irish Annual Aviation Ball which is being held in Faithlegg Country Club, Waterford.


I personally invite anybody who is planning a career in aviation or who wishes to explore in any way our facilities, resources and performance statistics to contact me directly. I will be delighted to make all our resources and experience available so that your experience in aviation will be a valuable and memorable one.


Thank you for reading this and best wishes to all in aviation. I hope it is not to long winded. It is not my intention to participate in any way in the debates on this forum but I do feel strongly that our management and staff, who are the best I have worked with over a 35 year career span, deserve to have their efforts defended and publicly praised. I hope that any genuine person reading this will at least see that we do the very best we can to be the best. We will continue to strive to improve so that all stakeholders in PTC Ireland and PTC Florida will feel that they are getting a fair deal and if our competitors and other minorities don’t like that, well tough!!


Sincerely


Mike Edgeworth

Chief Executive
Pilot Training College.

[potkettleblack]

Why does an FTO with consistent above average results that has experienced consistent growth over the past 9 years attract such attention.

How come there are a number of FTO's in this part of the world (say PAT, Multiflight, Bristol, Airways to name but a few) that have consistently high pass rates yet everyone raves about them and you hardly hear a bad word spoken. Yet your establishment keeps on hitting the headlines. I don't know call me an old cynic.......

Incidentally Mike can you confirm that you paid all of the creditors in Bournemouth when you closed up shop a few years ago? And any truth to the rumour that you took rental monies from a certain groundschool provider but failed to pass it onto the leaseholder leaving the former high and dry nor paid other FTO's for time clocked up on their aircraft?

[pilotbear]

Aero22, as you brought the subject up; what about the gear up landing at Oxford recently where the warning horn was cancelled and forgotten?:eek:
Every school will have an incident sooner or later, it is the nature of the business.:E

[tropicalfridge]

well, you can't make wild claims about deals with airlines which draw in students with false hopes and get away with it forever. When you see things like that, you know there will be other issues in a school.

[Mike Edgeworth.]

There is no connection at all between PTC Ireland and PTC Bournmouth other that that I did my CRI and IRI training there. I met Tony Kember in PTC Bournmouth at that time some time before PTC Ireland was founded by me. Tony subsequently was appointed by me as Head of Training of PTC Ireland. Your question clearly indicates that you were not aware that there is no connection at all between PTC Ireland or myself and PTC Bournmouth. There never has been any connection between these companies other that a similar name.

Mike Edgeworth
CEO
Pilot Training College Ireland

[pilotbear]

tropical fridge
which wild claims are those then? If someone doesn't get a job it is down to them! not the school, you can only do so much baby minding and hand holding. Where on earth do you people get this stuff?
Astonishing... keep it up. It is almost as funny a Fox News:ok:

Something that needs to be borne in mind here is when an airline or employer asks for a reference or report on a student the behaviour , dedication, interaction with authority and other student colleages during the whole course is taken into account. :eek: Not just whether they have passed the ME/IR test which, lets face it is not rocket science if you have used your hours building wisely and studied your aircraft :E

[john.o.pilot]

ok, so I pay £50000 of my hardly earned cash to school. they set me up with an hour builder :} and it is my responsibility to learn everything on my own.
You only get things like this in aviation schools these days. I tried 2 schools in cranfield, my first instructor used to be a postman, changed the school and my instructor there used to work as a security in tesco shops. no surprise they lacked knowledge and didn't have a clue about teaching.

went to bournemouth, instructor was an ex-airline crew and a proper pilot. Learned more in four flights with him than in 30 hours i spent with the losers above. :cool:

[pilotbear]

what you are saying is exactly the problem with FSI at Vero beach.
However, it is still your responsibility to study, learn drills, checklists and emergencies. You have to perform! no-one else. My point, from a great deal of experience is that students generally do not realise the importance of learning the above before getting in the aircraft, it then costs them more money. All the advice and guidance is provided, but not taken up until well into the course when it results in repeated lessons. Crazy behaviour:eek:

[flyguy80]

I have sat in the sidelines for a while now reading some of the stuff that people post up here and to be honest most of it actually makes me laugh. If i can i would like to give my two pence worth and share my opinion. As i am still a student with ptc I feel it is only right to set some of you guys straight
Yes i understand some people have grievances and thats only natural but to post it on here says alot about the type of people they are. I was in fsi towards the end of the ptc contract so i know what it was like, since the new manager took over there the place went to pot young instructors who just wanted to build their hours and not really concerned with actual good training the fact there were near more planes grounded everyday than in the air, the fact they had to sell four / five planes to try and pay for maintainence so you can see how the move fit had to be a possitive one.
I also feel it my duty to defend the staff and instructors with ptc, yes there are some weak links but doesn't every company. The instructors there are good people and try and help you out in everyway in and out of the classroom. They push you and try and get you to a standard and it shows my the success rate of the cpl/meir exams and the rest behind the scenes try and keep it going as best they can. As i said before this is only my oppinion and yes i have had issues with them as well but you know they are trying and changing everyday and thats why you have to say fair enough you screwed some things up but you also done alot of things right, they have a good thing going and it shows by the ammount of new people coming in every week for assesment and the new building they have moved into is top. So thats it i have said my piece i'm glad i chose ptc because training aside i have met some great people students and staff and i look forward to working with them in the future.

[mspilot2B]

Thanks flyguy80!
I have decided to go to PTC in Florida at the end of the year and I am delighted to hear such a good review of them. I'm under no illusions that anywhere is completely perfect but the place sounds like they are doing lots for students and that the training is second to none. Also, some sun and a nearby beach adds to the attraction!! Can't wait!!

[Yahweh]

Whilst I truely believe that Waterford PTC are doing their best to iron out any problems that students may have and that is something I applaud them for, there is one thing I think we can all agree on and that's the price of their course is daylight robbery.

At the end of the day no matter what way you wan't to sugar coat it, they offer a modular course not an intergrated one. And it costs the guts of 100,000 to do it when you can get a fully integrated option with two long established and highly reputable companies for the same price and in one case actually cheaper with current exchange rates.

So before I were to ever consider PTC and I'm not saying that I am, they would have to bring their prices done by a hell of a lot. In the current market conditions the prices you guys are charging for what is essentially a modular course are outrageous.

Anyone consider it without looking at the intergrated option available for the same price is nuts.

[skylarker1983]

I did full time ATPL training at Oxford for their 7 month course.
The course was genuinely good, and I recently passed my 14 th exam

While I was there, I met three Irish students who were clients of PTC.
These people had paid up the ridiculous sum this company charges for their training, then, due to the complete lack of quality groundschool they ended up forking out £5k to Oxford to get some decent groundschool.

I would run a mile!! I visited the school appox 2 years ago, and it was this visit that made me go the modular route!!
Great marketing spiel tho!

[Dct_Bombi]

Dont know why I am even replying on this thread, but like you guys now i spent many a day worrying about where to train and where to invest my hard earned money etc etc all those years ago. I have seen most flight schools in Europe and in Florida and have a resonable idea of the places including PTC and would urge people to go visit other places to compare and contrast before deciding on training.
I have to echo some previous posts on the cost..... Bigger picture stuff here guys, Modular at 90+k is just stupid,,,, Especially now you need to finish training at minimum cost and be that little bit better off with cash if you need a FIC/sim prep/type course/ etc etc.. I have many an experience with flight schools and many an airline now on my CV and have a resonable idea of what lies in wait for you....... Its a long line of wannabes and if your a cash struck wannabe your way down the field. Good luck to all ...BLUESKIES :cool:

[mspilot2B]

I agree dctbombi, I was very worried about the full cost of the course as well and it almost made me go elsewhere. However, it is possible with PTC to just pay for the modules that you are doing. I cannot afford to do all my training in one go so I am just doing ATPL's and hours building at the end of the year. I intend on doing everything with PTC, but I cannot commit to €98.5k at the moment. skylarker, I'd say the people you met had started before the full time ground school. i never realised that PTC had a full time class until I rang their US office by chance when I was researching other Florida schools.

[pilotbear]

keep running Skylarker.
The PTC ground school is the Oxford syllabus:ok: and I hear they just had a 94% pass. Apparently, they now do a modular course for a substantially reduced price:)
Amazing how you guys think you run things better. I am still waiting to see your proposed budget figures. You pay peanuts you get monkeys.
I just heard a rumour that the FI's at Oxford in the USA are not JAA qualified:eek: ...just a rumour of course. Wonder if that could disqualify your training?
Better dig deeper:E

[DublinDev]

Reads like a plant to me....

[JohnDCFC]

Just to add my tuppence worth. I read through these forums once in a while as a casual observer and I am currently a student with PTC Florida, completing my ATPL/hours build course.

While I have had some issues with PTC since starting my training with them, overall, the product they offer is very good, and is improving all the time. In fact, one thing that I admire about them as an FTO is their constant desire to improve the course (Im on the Airline Pilot Training Course) and make it as complete an experience for the student as possible.

The move to Melbourne has, IMHO, been a great one. The ATPL groundschool is continually improving and although its not perfect, it is a work in progress that I have no doubt will continue to get better.

You will always get positive and negative opinions about an FTO. I can only talk about my opinion/experiences with the FTO. What I can also say is that to be fair, Mike Edgworth and his team are very approachable and pro-active. This, for me, is something that is very positive in terms of the student experience at the school.

It is also worth mentioning the recent 'Fly Out' to New Orleans, which was a great experience for all who took part and the team at PTC Florida deserve great credit for putting that program together. Aparently, that was the first in a series of events...hopefully there is another one before I leave FL!

If you are contemplating a career in aviation, or choosing PTC, I would say by all means, shop around and get what is best for you.

I would have no hesitation in recomending PTC as an FTO, as long as you are prepared to put in the effort and work with them. Sure, they are not perfect, but who is? You will probably hear of nightmare stories from other students, and that is fair enough, like me, they are entitled to their opinion.

That should not take away, however, from the hard work that goes on behind the scenes at PTC in Waterford and Florida, which whatever you opinion, cant be argued with.

Anyway, I hope this helps, particulalry for those who maybe considering PTC as an option for their training.

[yamahachris]

Just trying to find out everything about the PTC, from someone that is with them at the minute, and would like to know how the funding works. If you could give me any feedback that would be geat thanks.


Thanks Chris

[MartinCh]

pilotbear > I just heard a rumour that the FI's at Oxford in the USA are not JAA qualifiedhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif ...just a rumour of course. Wonder if that could disqualify your training?
Better dig deeperhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

Well, you probably didn't dig deep studying through JAR FCL. Otherwise you'd know that there could be 'JAA' training in non-JAA country by non-JAA instructors as long as the relevant school is allowed/authorised to do so and the instruction is supervised by JAA instructor. I'm not fluent in the numbers. Check it out yourself.

It was the proposal for EASA FCL that JAA instruction could be only by JAA instructors that upset some schools etc. Or even outside JAA resp EASA soon (not all JAA, naturally). That would peeve off some big FTOs. I think there were rumours here that it'll get probably settled to the content of 'both sides'. But then, I'm not that into memorising it all.

[mtanz0]

It's 98 grand mate, don't even consider it. The place is a fully fledged con factory. People walking about dressed up as pilots who are actually salespeople, and who of course don't reveal that until you ask them. For around 40,000 euros, you could go to austrailia, do your training there, and then convert it to a JAA licence for around 10 grand.

[BigGrecian]

I just heard a rumour that the FI's at Oxford in the USA are not JAA qualified

They are not JAA flight instructors - correct. Nor do they hold JAA licences. They simply have done a little course which allows them to teach JAA syllabus.
In my opinion this is why that training in the USA is regarded as a low standard. (And Yes Oxford has some of the worst output I've ever seen IMHO)

There is only one school in the USA which uses JAA licenced pilots only. (Who have FAA Licences as well) Check their websites for details.

[Keygrip]

...but it's not always true though, BigG.

[McNulty]

Here is a clip of mike edgeworth on rte (irish radio) from a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-060409-11m14s-todaypk.mp3

Mike,

Could you please reveal where you got your information about the pilot shortage you speak of, and where the figure of '75000' in relation to the number of new european pilots required in the coming years comes from.

[flyingred]

mtanz0,

Just wondering where you can do this in australia? I'm still in the research stage on my application looking at PTC, jerez and oxford, and possibly CTC.

What is the story about training in australia? is it possible to convert over at relativly good prices? are there any particular schools you would advise looking into over there?

thanks

[BigGrecian]

Having just spoken to someone at Flight Safety; they are saying that PTC contract ended because of immigration problems.#

Apparantely they were conducting their own ATPL groundschool and some of their IAA flying training - without Flight Safety involved and this is against US immigration law. Flight Safety provide the visa or any school which provides your training, must be the one to provide your training or in conjunction with, if you start training outside that; then you have terms for visa termination.

When Flight Safety raised this apparently PTC started being more vague. Flight Safety didn't want the risk so didn't want the PTC contact anymore.

[davelongdon]

I am considering applying for the Flybe mentored scheme with PTC, anyone have any experience with this, advice etc. as I am a bit concerned. In a world where these schemes are rare where in fact on successful completition you are offered employment, is it worth forking out the 98,000 euros??

Please Help!

[acepilotmurdock]

I Did and am not looking back.

[Adios]

Dave,

Flybe do mentored courses with 4 or 5 different FTOs. Look at Flybe's web site to see what other choices you might have, as they are recruiting for several of them now.

[davelongdon]

Problem is most of the FTO's require A-Levels which I dont have, unlike PTC which dont require them.

With PTC, you are guaranteed employment on successful completion of the course and seems to be the only course running, as FTE's course has just closed for entries.

What success does CTC have?

[potkettleblack]

With PTC, you are guaranteed employment on successful completion of the course and seems to be the only course running, as FTE's course has just closed for entries.

Do you believe everything that you are told? I hope to god you do some detailed research and corroborate that statement before you go and spend a huge wedge of cash on a hope and whim. Perhaps ask them for a copy of the contract and have a lawyer review the "guarantee" clause you are referring to.

You would be more likely to get a job with CTC, however, you had better be at the top of your game to get through the selection process. Even after all of that the best you could hope for in the current climate is a summer contract building some hours. The hold pool is getting larger by the month so you could be swimming for years at the current rate. Factor that into your costings for your bank. Also go and read the various CTC threads to see what is going on in the job market and how bleak it is.

[jez d]

Dave, beware of that 'guarantee' of employment. Nothing is guaranteed in this economic climate.

Flybe are honourable and a great outfit to work for but it doesn't make them immune to the whims of bean counters.

Best of luck, jez

Edited to say PKB beat me to it :)

[LHR T5]

There is only one guarantee in life and that is ........... death!:ok:

[Adios]

Nobody can guarantee a job before you have a CPL or MPL. Flybe give a conditional job offer and it will have more get out clauses than just whether or not the cadets obtain the required license. If you are determined to try and become a Flybe cadet, at least try it at FTE or OAA, where (gasp...never thought you'd read this on Pprune) it's at least £10K cheaper than PTC.

[davelongdon]

Only problem with those Courses Adios, is that they require A-Levels which I dont have.

Do airlines prefer the intergrated route or modular, everyone is going to say intergrated but when you are talking a 30k saving.

[acepilotmurdock]

You are right no PTC student has got a Job with Flybe so far.......... however that is coz we are the first such course and we are just finishing our ATPLs. Thereb are pros and cons to ever fto any people wanting accurate info pm me.
:ok:

[Keygrip]

PTC aren't going to want to fail you

"Completely ridiculous to say" as the exams are conducted by the Irish Aviation Authority, not by PTC.

[acepilotmurdock]

Mtanz0, you really dont have a clue do you? :ugh:

[acepilotmurdock]

Again refer to previous statement, you really dont have a clue, to me it isnt a waste of money, it is an investment in myself. Again an FTO is very much what you and the fellow students make of it, like an ATM you only get out what you put into it.
I am never on here bitching about stuff thats not right, life isnt perfect, so if you choose to go with another FTO, then thats fine it is your choice but dont winge about an FTO weather its PTC, CTC or Oxford if you have no experience, of that FTO. That could be said for a lot of people on here. So I am not mad at you, just think you really are clueless.
Happy landings
:ok:

[captainclamps]

Flight Safety was a joke!! Don't think all Flybe students will get taken on straight away, so lads, heads down, work hard if you want that job.
Stu love your work, keep it up.:ok: and if Micheal o'Leary is reading this, I'll be finished around the new year, keep a slot open for us

[Keygrip]

ninja - according to the software...*you* deleted the post that you made yesterday. That's why it's not showing up. I can see it - but I have special buttons.

[davelongdon]

I have done all the research and was attracted by all the big lights CTC and Oxford has to offer. So I decided to truly find out what it was all about.

I told CTC to knock their FlyBe assessment day to 100 euros and I'd hop over the Irish Pond to go through the PILAPT assessment and FNPT II Sim Check of which I didnt have a problem which. So they are like well we will contact you if you are successful to put you for a FlyBe Interview.

Shock Horror I was successful but before they put you for interview they sent me a form saying you wouldnt be guaranteed a job and that where would the 90000 euros for the course come from and when can it be ready for. So that was it.

Now i have budgeted to do my PPL, ATPL Theory with Bristol GS, Hour Building, Multi Engine, IR, CPL, MCC & Jet Orientation Course all in this country taking into account budgeting for failures for circa 40k and you end up with more flying time and experience in UK Airspace.

Just starting my ATPL Theory for Bristol Now and never looked back. by time you work out flights, accomdation at schools abroad theres no point, you dont get experience flying in clear skies with no air traffic in a desert.

Also heard rumours that first lot of FlyBe cadets have been offered jobs as cabin crew in mean time (spose its better than nothing). But how are you meant to justify 90k for a 25000 pound wage!!!!! Dont have a go if rumours arent true, as it has not been confirmed.

Hope its been of some use.

[BigGrecian]

25000 pound wage

That's actually a pretty decent wage for a First Officer position let alone cabin crew!

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

[PPRuNe Towers]

That was the going rate in the late eighties BG - who's delusional or is it Stockholm Syndrome?

[acepilotmurdock]

Wow dick...... aptly named.. I take offence to your statement that the ME/CPL in the states, is to a lower standard than back in the uk. " Monkeys" you say, let me put the record straight, we do a ME/CPL in the States with three Amazing, let me say that once again Amazing JAA instructors, who teach the course to an exceptionally high standard.
We are then tested by the same examiner that does the Oxford crowed in Arizona, so if you are calling the ME/CPL in the States crap, you must be tarnishing Oxford with that same brush, which is some statement.
This site never ceases to amaze me! :ugh:

[acepilotmurdock]

Irish... if you did your training here at PTCF, then the test back in Ireland, who was your Instructor at PTCF?

[geordiejet]

For a start ptc do the cpl in america where the standards are no where near as high as they are in the uk cpl course.

Yup. Dick by name, dick by nature. Utter rubbish. Sorry, but how is it different? On the CPL exam you do the same thing as you would in the UK, it just happens that it's a lot hotter, the wx changes in the blink of an eye, and flying over pretty desolate, flat featureless terrain makes the cross country nav interesting to say the least. The rest is exactly the same in as in the UK!

[McNulty]

I wouldnt get too worked up about the cpl, its a bit of a joke really. The IR is the important one. acepilotmurdock - you are very pro ptc, and i know of 2 of the instuctors youre talking about in florida, have flown with them and i agree, they are excellent.

However wait until you do your IR in ireland with ptc - really crappy aircraft, really crappy scheduling ie. getting messed around when you need to get your sim sessions out of the way, but the sim is getting preference to be used for 'assesment' flights. Flying with differant instructors every day all wanting to do things differantly. Ground school being taught by people with 200 hours who dont have a clue - chief ground instructor doesnt even have an IR or an instructor rating. Seriously. The list goes on, youre paying top money for second rate training. Wait until youve been through the whole thing and you see that nobody gets jobs and we'll see if youre still so quick to jump to PTCs defence.

[antonov09]

Murdock you fool ---------of course its harder in the uk its a hundred times harder just ask any one thats flown in america and then flown in the uk. why dont they do the ir in america? you tell me why you cant get a jar ir in america? because the bloody caa wouldnt have it thats why








dope

[Keygrip]

WARNING!!

You guys are sliding into a pit of name calling and discussion on a topic (the merits of USA v. UK training) under a thread title that has NOTHING to do with it.

Considering PTC don't DO any training or testing in the UK it all seems a bit moot.

Name calling is not allowed on ANY forum or thread. Now cut it out and grow up.

If you can't have a professional conversation then stay off the thread - or, even better, stay off the forum.

[acepilotmurdock]

You are right, I haven't done the IR yet, as I am a week away from my CPL check. I never mentioned the IR I was merely jumping to my own and others defence who have done there ME/CPL out here,that it was said second rate.
Now normally I would say thats your own opinion, and fair enough, how ever if you do know the two instructors I am talking about then you will understand what I am saying. They are proffesional, and will not take or accept second rate. So it is also a defence of there proffesionalism.
I am not anti or pro PTC, I am just sick of people slagging PTC off cos of past posts etc with not having any basis for that opinion. I herd all the nightmare storys before I came here, however at the age of 31 I took the mature stance of finding out for myself.
Agreed things were not perfect to start with, and there has been a million percent improvement, and personally I think the people involved in that turn around should be praised, again their are still issues but they are being addressed.
End of rant, and jumping off my soap box, and an apology to Dick for my comment :ouch:

[EI-CON]

Just finished up with PTC a month ago and RATE THEM A VERY GOOD SCHOOL! The move from FSI was for the best the new set up in FIT in Melbourne is brilliant. I did my CPL/ME in 3 and a half weeks in minimum hours, did the MEIR in Waterford in 5 weeks also minimum hours. A week after finishing up went down to sort out money and got a 4 figured sum BACK for being under hours.

The guys who get screwed at PTC are the guys who go way over hours. They turn up totally unprepared for flights and wonder why the instructor makes them repeat the lesson, PTC are a very good school if your willing to work hard.

Just my experience and unlike most people commenting on PTC I've actually gone there!

[EI-022]

EI-con.
Well done on completing your course. PTC is Faaaar too expensive for what it is. How much did you pay for your training? You sound like PTC staff to be honest, sorry-

[antonov09]

Yep I agree with that sentiment. Sounds like staff to me. 98000 for a modular course with distance learning for the atpls and thats minimum. MCC/JOC extra onto that price? Resits ? hours over? Its more expensive than Oxford. You can get the same licence for half that cost ? By doing your ppl then doing bristol groundschool for atpls then finding a good training provider in England for a cpl/meir and another for an mcc. If you were to speak in rough figures 1. ppl(anywhere) cost you roughly 7k 2. bristol gs(atpls) cost you 2k 3. hours building 6k-7k 4. cpl/meir 20/25k(BCFT or PAT bmouth or Multiflight(leeds) or Stapleford) and an mcc on a 737 -200 for 2500 ----All rough sterling prices (roughly 40k to 47k all in) You would have saved about 20 to 30 k for the same book. And in this economic climate you have the same chance as the next guy with the exact same book as you of getting a job.

[EI-CON]

EI-022 and antonov09,

Firstly sorry for the lateness of my reply havent been on this in a while.
No im not PTC staff I assure you! I paid them 75k(euro) for atpl's distance learing, 120hrs hour building, combined CPL/MEP & MEIR. I had a PPL before joining PTC.

Antonov09 as I said in my previous post yes extra hours and resits do cost extra and thats where guys get caught. Thankfully I got through the course without having to do extra hours or resits not through skill through hard work. PTC make you work a lot harder because they do everything a lot quicker as I said CPL in 3 and a half weeks and MEIR in 5.

Im just giving my two cents on what I though of the school and my experience, take it or leave it but as I said before unlike a lot of people who post about PTC I have actually been through the school and I assure you I am not staff.

[cTcPilot]

Just seen this on PPrune!

"The Integrated Airline Pilot Programme at Pilot Training College"

PTC in Waterford are offering an Intergrated ATPL course so they say. This is actually a Modular course. The way they market there school has alot to be said for. I have a freind there who has just finished and the still no Interview as she was told and stated to be in her 13th month!!!!!!!

As an ex-Integrated student myself, I would want to make sure that the school I go to to attend an intergrated course is actually integrated! Can you imagine how much of a fool you would look like in an airline interview and the airline turn around and say to you "but, you didnt train Integrated, you trained modular"...:ugh:

[acepilotmurdock]

No I think you will find they have approval from the IAA and it is an integrated course...and not the airline pilot program which is modular run like an integrated.
:ok:

[alikikev]

Has anyone from the UK had any problems with their IAA issued licence if they are not working in Ireland?

I am due to go over to PTC mid december for a medical and pilot skills assessment for the integrated course with the look to start on the january or march course.

I have PPL experiance however i never completed the exams thus did not get the licence.

I understand that tis course takes me right up to a stage where i can start type ratings is this correct. Have there been any problems converting IAA to UK-CAA and does this cost alot extra.

Basically is the €79500 going to turn into €89500 by hidden charges that i am not being told about.

Anyones help would be appreciated.

I have heard quite a few good things about PTC, however it seams that when ever anyone praises a company they are very quickly accused of being staff, as if you are not alowed to think the company is good.

Any genuine info would be appreciated.
Thanks

[alikikev]

Many thanks for the info.

PTC must now have a deal with a place in Dublin as the MCC is now included in the course and is done last. i believe its simcorp?

have you had much success in securing a aviation job? alot of people are aiming for airline FO, but do many people getin to private companies, smaller exec planes etc... i guess the type rating would be cheaper for those as well. appol is i am covering a different thread on that last part, if anyone has a link to the relevent thread i would be greatful.

Thanks

[12Watt Tim]

€79,500???? Without an MCC? If you can afford that then surely €10,000 here or there is not really an issue!

[alikikev]

79500 with MCC and yer 10k is just my pocket change i guess so dont know what iam worried about :)

found a place in cyprus, works with OxfordAA, there 59k but no MCC and no accom. but you end up with a UK-CAA rather than IAA

[sickofitall]

Alikikev Check your PM's

[EI-CON]

Hey all,

Just to jump in on the MCC comments, I completed my training in PTC as you will find earlier in this tread and also completed the MCC/JOC with Simtech. Very good course, instruction is excellant all very highly experienced instructors for example Aer Lingus, Ryanair, Aer Arann and Virgin Atlantic pilots. Everything ran on time and on schedule.

There was 4 in my MCC/JOC class and 3 of us have now got jobs with airlines(or airline I should say:)) and I think I speak for all 3 of us when I say the training, pre interview help etc offered by Simtech is second to none.

Well worth a look.

[Nearly There]

3 of us have now got jobs with airlines(or airline I should sayhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif)

Would that be with FR?

[EI-CON]

Nearly There,

It would and there has been others too recently that werent in my class but who also did the PTC & Simtech route.

Im saying this to convey that these two places have high standards and there graduates are getting jobs.

[12Watt Tim]

alikikev

If you don't want to go in the airlines do not do an integrated course. Modular is much preferred in most of the GA world, and it is cheaper. Some GA companies won't even look at integrated graduates until they have done some more challenging flying.