"Unauthorised" air ambulance landing

[Final 3 Greens]

Just wondered if anyone has seen this?

Air ambulance sent to save unconscious rider is ordered off £9bn sheik's estate | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111548/Air-ambulance-sent-save-unconscious-rider-ordered-9bn-sheiks-estate.html)

Allowing a modicum of sceptism for Dail Mail reporting, it raises an interesting dilemma.

Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?

In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?

(To be clear, I am an amateur aeroplane pilot, so will not face this dilemma, it just strikes me as a tough one.)

[SWBKCB]

On this specific case, you need to read the story to get past the headline - looks like you have to have been there to tell whether this was reasonable or not (and I appreciate I've altered the story by selective quoting...).

The stunned crew of an air ambulance were ordered off the estate of a billionaire sheik after landing there to rescue an unconscious horse rider.
The sheik is fifth on Forbes magazine’s global ‘rich list’ with a £9billon fortune. His head of security confirmed the helicopter had landed, saying: ‘It just plonked down outside the house, landing on private ground without permission, and that was the issue. Aircraft can’t just fly in like that. I understand it was an emergency, but they should have notified us. We have people working in the grounds, including gardeners, and if they have protective earphones on they can’t hear anything. It could have landed on top of someone, or there could have been other aircraft coming into the estate – we do have a landing area here. One guard was relaying back to me what was going on as I was in the control room. I told the guard to tell them to contact me direct, but before we could sort it out they just took off again.
We don’t have a problem with the air ambulance landing here or cutting the fence. They’ve done it before, but we do need to be notified first. Sheik Al Maktoum wasn’t here at the time, but even so it sparks a panic if an aircraft suddenly appears on your lawn.’

An air ambulance spokeswoman said: ‘We landed on Sheik Al Maktoum’s estate and were prepared to cut the fence and guards did approach the crew. But at that point we received a radio message saying that the patient wasn’t as badly injured as we thought. The medical team had a discussion with the guards and a decision was taken to move the helicopter.’

On the general point, I would have assumed the law would allow access to save life/prevent serious injury (rights of the injured override the life of the land owner), but can anybody clarify?

[helimutt]

What they going to be done for? Trespass? Not in this country they're not.

[A.Agincourt]

Is it not the case that members of the emergency services and certain utility company employee's are allowed to enter/onto private land in order to save life or property or for the protection of the public? Who tasked the AA?

Best Wishes

[md 600 driver]

he does not have a problem when one of his jockeys gets injured does he ?

wonder what would happen if he is is ever needing a AA and that crew turn up and go away because of landing problems

[misterbonkers]

With that much money he's probably got his own fleet of air ambulances waiting to rush him off to his own private hospital.

What an arrogant gentleman! (referring to the person who ordered the helicopter to leave site)

I know there are people on this forum with space to land on their property who would more than welcome an Air Ambulance touching down unannounced.

Agincourt - you are correct about utilities - you can land in the vicinity of the pipeline if you see something untoward but I think technically its already 'agreed' with the landowner owner in the original contract from when the pipeline was laid.

As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply. Im guessing that as a courtesy any damage is put right?

[pulse1]

bonkers,

What an arrogant gentleman!


But unlike you, he may well get his facts before making judgements.

Sheik Al Maktoum wasn’t here at the time,

[JTobias]

Disgraceful (and I fully identify with isues relating to the sheiks personal security etc) but if I'd been the para medic I would have cut the fence and told the security guy where to shove it.

I'm sure someone knows the law better than me, but I'm certain, you can land anywhere in this country to save a life!

Joel

[Droopy]

Hopefully when this gets to the top it'll result in security staff in the sh!t and a donation the the AA trust.

[Clever Richard]

The relevant question is whether the landing area referred to by the security guard is marked on charts.

If not, and the helo crew carried out a recce prior to landing, their actions would appear to have been entirely reasonable.
If it was, and no attempt was made to find a working frequency, then a re-brief might be in order.

In any event, it sets an unfortunate precedent to start putting obstacles in the way of those who are only trying to do a valuable job.

CD

[R.OCKAPE]

The security guard was also doing his job...whats the problem

[Runway101]

Seems to me that somebody (press) is making an elephant out of a mosquito. Also, the medical team spoke to the guards and not the pilot.

An air ambulance spokeswoman said: ‘We landed on Sheik Al Maktoum’s estate and were prepared to cut the fence and guards did approach the crew.

‘But at that point we received a radio message saying that the patient wasn’t as badly injured as we thought. The medical team had a discussion with the guards and a decision was taken to move the helicopter.’

I guess if the person would have been in a life threatening condition they would have told the security guards to get lost and continued their work.

What's being discussed by some ("rich dude kicks out life savers, OMG lynch him!") is exactly what headlines like these are trying to provoke.

[xraydice]

I know this location well ! There are a couple of other considerations not mentioned ( quite rightly ) in the article, it would also appear that the journo also did very little research on this.
Notwithstanding the need to save life , the "security person" I feel acted properly, thats my view knowing I would not wish to call unannounced by air with a pair of bolt croppers, after all a first responder was alredy on location.

[sonas]

Not knowing the full story, and after all, its a daily paper, life takes precedence. If the gentleman concerned doesn't like it then go somewhere else.:*

[Bronx]

Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?
In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?
As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply.

What law says you got to get a landowner's permission to land, emergency or no emergency?

Where's the law written?

Law or urban myth? :confused:


B.

[Runway101]

What law says you got to get a landowner's permission to land, emergency or no emergency?
Good practice for sure, but is it a law?
If so where is it written?

Law or urban myth?

Doesn't it state in the FAR (as in FAA, your location says New York City) that you need the land owners permission?

If I recall correctly it also says in the FAR that you can deviate from any regulation in an emergency such as to save somebodies life. Now I know that this didn't happen in FAA country and that EMS services have their own rules and might not count as "emergency", but there might be something similar in the UK regs.

Then on the other side of the pond in Germany, one of the most restrictive countries for flying Helicopters, there is article 25 of their regulations (LuftVG) that says you can land anywhere for the sake of safety or helping somebody or if life and limb is in danger. This is also valid for taking off again, so you can leave without being held back. All you have to do is to leave your details and your insurance details with the landlord.

[Final 3 Greens]

Bronx

In the UK, The Air Navigation Order 2005 (S.I. 2005 No 2005/1970) and The Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996 No 1393) as amended.

I am not familiar with exceptions for emergencies.

Where do you draw your reference from?

[SASless]

There are a lot of vague statements being made around here by folks quoting or referencing obscure documents, regulations, and "law" re landing in any old place. It would be nice if folks would cite specific references they think apply to the situation rather than offer up vague recollections of what some source may have probably suggested.

One example...

If I recall correctly it also says in the FAR that you can deviate from any regulation in an emergency such as to save somebodies life.

Just where in the US FAR's does that statement come from. Give us a cut and paste of the wording...and the reference for that.

Ask yourself if the definition of "Emergency" as used by the FAA in the FAR's applies to the everyday conduct of EMS helicopter operations? Then, provide us the citation of the source you are using to make that claim please.

Now if you begin to use the FAR/AIM (Airman's Information Manual) as a reference you should also read what it says about it being a reference and accumulation of "recommeded practices" and the admonition those same practices do not carry the weight of rule or law.

The UK Air Law appeared to grant far more leeway in the accetable actions by pilots during "Life Saving" efforts than does the US FAR's.

Perhaps we could get Flying Lawyer to compare and contrast that for us if it would not be a violation of legal standards in the UK for him to do so.

[Bronx]

Final 3 Greens In the UK, The Air Navigation Order 2005 (S.I. 2005 No 2005/1970) and The Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996 No 1393) as amended.
I am not familiar with exceptions for emergencies.

Before we get on to any exceptions for emergencies and suchlike - where in the Air Navigation Order 2005 or the Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 does it say a landowner's permission is required before a helicopter can land?

Where do you draw your reference from?

Hold on fella. I'm saying there's no such law in England.
You are the one saying there is.

Where do you draw your reference from?

[JimbosJet]

Trespass I believe has been done away with in the UK. So safe there.

The only question is whether the idea of saving or preserving lives in the ANO context (aircraft, crew, passengers and any potential casualties resulting from an aircraft malfunction or emergency situation where members of the public and property is at risk) extends to the role of the air ambulance service.

Besides, the aircraft commander can depart from ANO if he feels it is justifiable to do so. Perhaps he would have to defend such actions at a later date but I think and sincerely hope that any sober court in the UK would overthrow any claim against the Air Ambulance acting improperly if it performed its task safely.

[SASless]

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

I fail to see how Helicopter EMS operations meet this FAR rule.... 91.3.

[Final 3 Greens]

Bronx

I've haven't got the other two documents to hand, but if you wish to push the point, you can also look at Article 118 of the Air Navigation Order 1995 as amended, which covers landing sites in uncongested areas. If the site is in a congested area, then specific permission must be granted by the UK CAA.

By the way, I am a UK licensed aircraft commander, are you? (Translation, I am becoming a little fed up of you second guessing me, when it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about.)

[SASless]

Finals,

There are more than a few Yanks that are equally licensed in the UK as you....thus it is not beyond consideration that Bronx may hold the same licenses as you and thus despite being in New York may very well have past experience in the UK.

The fact you are an aircraft commander does not make you an expert on the law....but should provide you the professional expertise whereby you might locate valid sources to back up your statements.

Perhaps if you provided some of those references he you might prove your point to Bronx and he would cease asking those questions of you.

[Bronx]

Final 3 Greens I am a UK licensed aircraft commander, are you? (Translation, I am becoming a little fed up of you second guessing me, when it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about.)Wow! That sounds very impressive.
Or is that what they call PPLs in England now? ;)

If the site is in a congested area, then specific permission must be granted by the UK CAA.Who said the Sheikh's estate is in a congested area? :confused:
Anyways we're discussing land owner's permission not CAA permission to land in congested areas.

I am becoming a little fed up of you second guessing me, when it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about.Yeah, I guess it must be very frustrating for a "licensed aircraft commander" to have someone suggesting they could actually be wrong. :rolleyes:
Would you care to prove I don't know what I'm talking about?
I'm basing what I say on what I've read here on Pprune over the years but I'm always happy to learn somehting new.

I've haven't got the other two documents to hand
Google is your friend.
Here you go ~

Air Navigation Order 2005 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm)
Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19961393_en_1.htm)


B.

[Stan Switek]

Sounds like an over officious security guard is the issue here. I can tell you that in the USA most states have laws against interference with police/fire/EMS personnel. Those law apply on private property too. It's sad when people allow their need to inflate their own egos to come before attending to a seriously injured human being.

If the guy is going to prevent the helicopter from landing, whats to prevent him from denying ems personnel access to the property also? It's common sense. The security geek obviously had very little. If you read the article, it's clear it's all about the guards ego. I'm a bit disappointed that the air crew didn't have the cajones to stand their ground, do the right thing & render aid to a seriously injured victim. Only a total meat head could fault them for that.

[bolkow]

Under "common law" in the UK you can bet the medic's would be covered. You need to be able to demonstrate that a direct and urgent intervention was required whose nature precluded the need for consent. You also have to demonstate that you have the urgent treatment the person requires. If you opicked them up against their will and toook them to a hospitla that simply made them comfortable but did not provide an urgent medical input, I'd not want to be defending that one, you could be done for assault.

[VeeAny]

Sasless

Purely to clear up the UK regs and not comment on this case (at least for this post anyway).

Edited in response to XrayDice lower down the page, the purpose of me putting this here is to try and get pilots to notice that there appears to be nothing to stop a pilot landing were he likes in common law, which is one of the factors to encourage precautionary landings as acceptable to newly qualified or inexperienced pilots hence my opening line, and also to clear up what is and isn't current in the UK at this time.

It may help the you can't land there / oh yes I can argument if we cite some specifics.

It would be good if we had FLs input on this but until we do I'll offer some places to go and look.

The current version of the ANO can be found in CAP393 we are currently up to AMENDMENT 3/2008 of CAP393.

Several modifications have been made to the ANO since the 2005 version reference by Finals3Greens. The latest modification to my knowledge being the Air Navigation (Amendment) Order 2008 (SI 2008/1782).

The current Rules of the Air have also been modified since 1997 and they currently are described in 2007 SI 734 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/pdf/uksi_20070734_en.pdf)

What this amounts to is that CAP393 Amendment 3/2008 contains the latest versions of the ANO (it is section 1 of the document) and The rules ot the Air (It is Section 2 of the document)

CAP393 can be found at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf

F3G
Article 118 has obviously changed as it now talks about use of simulators in testing and I can't find a copy of the 1995 Version of the ANO in my collection of part regs, so it may help if you give us a hint as to which bit you are tlking about.

I would imagine that an Air Ambulance operation would be carried out under several exemptions to the rules that apply to the rest of us anyway, the contents of those exemptions we may never see (its none of our business really).

Some people have mentioned the need for land owners permission in the UK, and I believe that is dealt with to death in this thread http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/255592-land-owners-permission.html which includes comments from FL but not about this specific case.

The only thing the ANO seems to say about land owners is that Article 168(1)
Subject to articles 128 and 130, nothing in this Order or any regulations made thereunder shall confer any right to land in any place as against the owner of the land or other persons interested therein.

Which to me says the ANO doesn't give you the right to land, but what in English Law says you are prohibited from doing so ?

The only place the ANO appears to mention saving life is to allow the raising and lowering or dropping of people /articles and animals to save life

I hope this helps

GS

[Pilot DAR]

In Canada, the "for the purpose of saving human life" carries a lot of weight. My experience has been that Transport Canada generally defends the actions of a pilot who deviated from the regulations for the purpose of saving human life. I would not expect Transport Canada to give a private landowner much traction in such a situation, unless "wreckless operation" of the rescuing aircraft was apparent.

One of several references exemptions from regulation for saving human life can be seen here:

(2) A person may conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft within a built-up area of a city or town at a place that is not located at an airport, heliport or a military aerodrome where
(amended 2007/06/30; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part6/Version/602062.htm))
(a) the place is not set apart for the operation of aircraft;
(b) the flight is conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface; and
(c) the aircraft is operated
(i) for the purpose of a police operation that is conducted in the service of a police authority, or
(ii) for the purpose of saving human life.

[Stan Switek]

Some possibly overlooked quotes from the article:

"But a security guard told them to stop – despite the crew being allowed by law to land anywhere and damage property to get to a patient."

‘The paramedic told him that they had to get to someone who was badly injured. ‘But the guard just replied, “You’ll have to take off again then.”

His head of security confirmed the helicopter had landed, saying: ‘It just plonked down outside the house, landing on private ground without permission, and that was the issue.

‘We don’t have a problem with the air ambulance landing here or cutting the fence. They’ve done it before, but we do need to be notified first."

Clearly way too much ego & lack of common sense by a security guard with no real legal authority beyond that of a private citizen.

[Runway101]

Seems you found what I was referring to. Sec. 135.19 would be another place to look.

I fail to see how Helicopter EMS operations meet this FAR rule.... 91.3.

That's what I said in the first place:

Now I know that this didn't happen in FAA country and that EMS services have their own rules and might not count as "emergency", but there might be something similar in the UK regs.

And this was a direct response (which is implied by me quoting his question) to Bronx if you need or don't need a landowners permission, and not a comment directly related to the Sheik case on hand.

I beg your pardon if my comment somehow increased your heart rate for a moment. Will try to be more specific next time, especially on all these little things that we youngsters consider common sense (such as ONE of the THREE responsibilities of the PIC).

[xraydice]

Have some of you lost the horizon ?
It not the sort of fence you want to cut ( Clue; Crown Prince of Dubai ) ie not 3 strands of barb wire.
Security is not exactly the tv watching,crispmunching,sleeping barrieroperator we all know and love.
Willy waving over legislation, I'm suprised that we havent heard from AA crew to put us right , or prehaps they are enjoying the entertainment, after all its a Daily Mail story :hmm:

[herman the crab]

I can tell you that in the USA most states have laws against interference with police/fire/EMS personnel

As does the UK...

Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 (c. 39) (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060039_en_1)

HTC

[ShyTorque]

From the Criminal Justice Service website:
Fine
Fines are penalties available to courts for a wide variety of offences. In the Magistrates' Courts offences that attract fines are subject to maximums from level 1 to level 5.
Level 1: £200
Level 2: £500
Level 3: £1,000
Level 4: £2,500
Level 5: £5,000

There's no limit to the amount the Crown Court can fine, but the amount will take into account the seriousness of the offence and the offender's ability to pay.

[PPRuNe Radar]

A lot of the legal references and assertions resulting here are worthless for this specific incident, since the Sheikh's estate is actually in Scotland. For example:

Magistrates Court ... don't have them.

Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act ... not applicable in Scotland.


The aviation law aspects are of course relevant to the whole of the UK :ok:


That said, I am sure there are relevant legal instruments in existence which could be used to defend the crew against any legal action undertaken by the estate.

[Freewheel]

Radar,

So I've been secretly wasting my time hoping they take it to court and wind up appearing before His Honour Judge Owen.....

[Phil77]

I'm sure most of you here know (or don't care) but I post it anyway ;):

In the US the right to land (or not) is not regulated by the FAA, it comes down to each state. That makes it pretty hard to pinpoint (or even to find out) in some states:
- For the lack of regulation in Pennsylvania for example: the authorities (PennDOT) I talked to are ok with one, two, or three times landings or take offs (not nearer defined), but wish to survey the area for only $10 for continued, but still temporary use. Certainly one would have to obtain a license for a permanent heliport.
- New Jersey on the other hand prohibits ALL landings at a private property without prior permission (N.J.S.A. 6:1-29): "If not specifically preempted by Federal standards, the ultimate authority over the regulating and licensing of aeronautical activities and facilities in New Jersey resides with the Commissioner" - I don't think that applies to EMS though (not sure)

[ecureilx]

The Sheik, is a big time philanthroper, and is a not the 'run-of-the-mill' Sheiks as most arabs are painted as .. and is one of the most progressive Sheiks in the region, encouraging female education and euqality .. :ok:

I heard from the guys who had the privilege of working with Sheik Al Maktoum - all they had to do was 'inform in advance' and 100% permission would have been given if requested.

I guess with all the kidnapping and hijackings, nobody will be amused of a helicopter dropping in suddenly, regardless whether it was dressed as an air ambulance or not.

[VeeAny]

Radar

I think this incident happened in Surrey.

A quote from the media article referenced in the first post.

Paramedics had been about to use bolt-cutters to cut the 6ft security fence around Sheik Mohammed Al Maktoum’s mansion to reach the rider lying on neighbouring Chobham Common in Surrey.http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/10/article-1111548-02FC240C000005DC-511_468x286.jpg


Rescue call: The Surrey Air Ambulance helicopter

And yes I know the photo is of the Kent one, but thats what the article used.

GS

[Final 3 Greens]

Veeany

I agree with your comment about precautionary landings, clearly forced landings would also be covered.

What I am talking about is the necessity for the landowner to give the helicopter operator permission to land at a temporary landing site, i.e. one in operation for less than 28 days per year, assuming it is not in a congested area. Obviously, if it is in a congested area, then the CAA must give permission.

If there are exemptions for the EMS helicopters, then that removes the dilemma I thought may exist.

[Whirlybird]

There is no law of trespass in Scotland. There has not been for....years and years and years, if ever. This is a little fact I remember learning many years ago, when there was such a law in England (I think), although I can't give you chapter and verse and where to find it. However, I do remember that when I used to hike in Scotland and asked landowners for permission to camp on their property, they were a little puzzled. "You can camp anywhere you like," said one, clearly confused as to why I was even asking. But he was Scottish and the long term law of the land was obviously part of his psyche. Not the case with the sheikh or his employees, maybe.

[ecureilx]

Quote:
"Paramedics had been about to use bolt-cutters to cut the 6ft security fence around Sheik Mohammed Al Maktoum’s mansion to reach the rider lying on neighbouring Chobham Common in Surrey."

What if the fence was electrified ??? :mad: :mad:

[Tarman]

Good old Scottish hospitality. You are ALL welcome anytime ! (Just watch for the landing charges at Cumbernauld) :eek:

[Senior Pilot]

Longcross House (the estate in question) is owned by the Sheik Mohammed al Maktoum, and is near Ascot. I think that we can discount PPRuNe Radar's assertion that Scottish law has somehow come to have precedence in all this ;)

LONGCROSS HOUSE

The owner of Longcross House is Sheik Mohammed al Maktoum and is in Berkshire with the approximate value of £75 million.

Twenty years ago the house near Ascot was bought for less than £750,000 by Sheik Mohammed, Crown Prince of Dubai and United Arab Emirates’ defence minister.

Today, this estate is worth millions, even though the Arab owned properties that are on the Berkshire-Surrey border are difficult to value. And they are very unlikely to appear on the open market and the immense security that surrounds the grounds this makes it difficult to see what renovations have been done.

There is not much information on Longcross House, the way it is today, but little bits of information say that the sheik has added three hangers fro his large collection of vehicles and limousines. Also electronic gates and guard houses protect the two main entrances to the house.


www.britain.tv (http://www.britain.tv/property_top_100homes_11.shtml)

[heli1]

Hmmmm......so I paint up an old Bo105 in air ambulance markings.....load a bunch of my mates aboard with guns and land in someone's estate to take hostage/blow up/terrorise/or some other nasty option because an air ambulance is a passport to land anywhere.
Now who would do such a thing ? Answer ...8 Flight SAS !
Isn't this thread losing the point ?

[misterbonkers]

Imagine if our Defence Minister had all that going on in a foreign country!!!

[R44-pilot]

There HAS to be an AA pilot on here somewhere!

He or she should know exactly! I'd be interested in what another AA pilot would do in this situation.....

Come on..... dont be shy speak up. We know your out there! :cool:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a AA pilot flying without a military or Offshore background?:ok:

I think it would be the best job in the industry IMO.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Fair enough ... I stand corrected and apologise :} Fatal mistake number 1 in aviation ... don't assume, check :O I assumed it was his Scottish estate.

We've always been a bit more forgiving about land access up here though :ok:

[BobbyBolkow]

Interesting scenario this!!
Being an AA pilot that R44 asked for.......this is my take on the situation.

During Air Ambulance operations in this country (UK), if the information the crew have at the time is that life is at risk, or injury has occurred. Then the aircraft commander has the authority to land at an un-surveyed site without the landowners permission. HOWEVER, and it's a BIG however, this DOES NOT mean that the landing is exempt from the owners permission rule. After landing the commander should, if possible or if required, attempt to gain permission from the landowner retrospectively.
Unfortunately,in this instance, the cry of 'oi, get orf my land' is a valid one!:ugh: If the landowner is unhappy with the fact that you've landed somewhere uninvited, they have the right to ask you to leave, forcebly if neccessary! (i.e Plod).
With regard to getting access to the patient. Most things are allowed, but the intimation is that prior to departure best efforts are made to re-instate any damage done to property. Maybe a bit difficult if you've taken a gurt set of bolt croppers to a chain link fence!!!

In 16 years of flying Air Ambulance operations in Gods own county (I'll leave you to work where that is!). I've never once encountered this problem:D. Probably because we don't have too many Billionaires down here!

R44 In answer to your other question. Yes there are a few non-mil AA pilots around. Not too many, mainly due to the nature of work and the fact that the pay tends to be :mad: compared to, say, the N. Sea! But anyway, Good old Lizzie does train the best!:ok: And you're right. It IS one of the best jobs going IMHO


Does ANYBODY know how to fly this thing? :D

[R44-pilot]

Great answer, thanks Bobby,

I think the rule you talk about should be looked at, i.e. they say move you have to move.... I should think very few AA pilots have had to face this but never the less, I think the rule should be taken away... at the end of the day your there for a job, and as you say its to preserve life! would you tell an amubulance to get off your driveway if there treating someone..... :ugh: and I should think you possible COULD!

Which AA do you fly for? Not Lincs & Notts is it? :uhoh: (in 10 years time i'd love that job!:E)

I ask because your names BobbyBolkow and I know Lincs/Notts use to have a 105 before the MD......

As for the pay, i'm sure the job MORE than makes up for the few less pennies. (Thats how I would see it) A great job done mate, and IMO a very very repectful seat to be sat:ok:

[Whirlygig]

R44, God's own county is a specific county which the denizens of that place like to think is the best in the world. They are well known for being fiercely loyal to their motherland as well as being a tad parsimonious with the beer vouchers (is this the right colour??)

Cheers

Whirls

I'll give you another clue - it ain't Lancashire :p :ouch:

[R44-pilot]

Doh, It's Devon! :ugh:

Didnt check public profile.... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Farmer 1]

it ain't Lancashire

...which is there purely to keep the wind off God's Country.

[Whirlybird]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a AA pilot flying without a military or Offshore background?

I know two. I first met both when I was learning to fly and they were instructors. They went the route that a lot of us do - instructing, some commercial flying eg charter work and pleasure flying, gradually gained more qualifications and hours, and applied for the job.

On permission to land, I distinctly remember Flying Lawyer telling me on here that you don't legally need a landowner's permission to land, but I don't remember now which thread it was.

[nodrama]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a AA pilot flying without a military or Offshore background?


I even know a handful that started their careers as engineers/ mechanics:eek: :ok:

[fallmonk]

"But a security guard told them to stop – despite the crew being allowed by law to land anywhere and damage property to get to a patient."


Lifes are at risk u can go in !

[nodrama]

Lifes are at risk u can go in !


So what do you do? Physically restrain the security guard or knock him out??

As Bobby Bolkow and others have pointed out, this situation was a little more complicated than "Yes I can/ No you can't".

[Final 3 Greens]

Bobby Bolkow

Thanks for your input, it seems there is a potential dilemma and I don't envy you that one, although I am sure that EMS commanders have excellent judgement and decision making skills.

If no-one else adds anything of note in the next 24 hours, I'll relieve the PPrune bandwidth and delete the thread.

Thanks for your responses.

[Whirlybird]

Don't delete it. Flying Lawyer might turn up eventually and tell us the real legal situation. Or someone else who actually has something useful to say. Not everyone reads PPRuNe every day.

[RINKER]

I may be wrong but I'm sure Flying Lawyer commented on here that due to his new position he is not allowed to comment on legal mattters on here.
R

[EESDL]

whether it's legal or safe is another point?

Other irrelevant measures/statements are 'exclusion zones' and 'no fly' areas.
All meaningless unless authorities have will and capability to enforce.
Obviously I'm referring to aircraft landing with malicious intent etc but it's akin to declaring a no fly zone over London with our AD assets unable to do anything about it if aircraft enters with malicious intent.....
Can just imagine terrorist going to all the trouble of hiring a helicopter full of bang bang to arrive over their intended target to have to then abort because his aviation map has an exclusion zone over it!

Similiar to SB clearance - have yet to read about a criminal/smuggler advising SB of their intended movements!

:}

[J.A.F.O.]

I heard from the guys who had the privilege of working with Sheik Al Maktoum - all they had to do was 'inform in advance' and 100% permission would have been given if requested.


Oh, that's okay then. Just remember if you are planning to be seriously injured or taken ill to give your local ambulance service seven days notice in writing then they'll be able to arrange PPR with the landowner.

Now, I'm sure that the Sheik is a delightful fellow it just so happens that he has had recruited for him a security adviser who appears to be a bit of an ar$e from the reports above.

You may have the right to ask someone to leave your land, it doesn't mean that you should exercise it nor that you can ignore your responsibility to assist in the preservation of life.

Whirlygig - Yes, you've got the right colour.

[Dagenhamdave]

All you need to do in the AA role is to get on the radio and call up local Plod, (Police to our american friends) they (I hope ) would assist the team in getting on with the mission.
AA's don't get permission to land pre incident but it would be prudent to have aggreements re HLS within Sensitive area's ,large developements, industrial sites and sporting venues,throughout their area of coverage.
It would keep someone in a nice job eh ??? (Ops Officer Available ;) )
on another note,
A mate of mine flies hot air balloons they have these permission issues every time they land.
once landed they seek permission from the landowner to retrieve the deflated balloon from the field, if they do not get permission to drive on to the field they then have to carry all the components off of the field! so they always try and look for a landing site free of animals and crop's with good access to a road if poss.
They also carry Ordanance Survey maps which have sensitive areas marked on them such as Pigs farms,chickens, angry Farmers, stud farms, and any areas that have had problems in the past some are no land zones and some are avoid flying below 500ft/1000ft (believe it or not ,Hot air balloons spook animals more than helicopters do) the ballooning governing body also have reps in each county to liaise with landowners to help with any issues or complaints.
I'm sure the Surrey AA management team would have have spoken to the estate manager and addressed the issue by now.

All publicity is good publicity and minor and usually inaccurate stories like this help keep the AA charities in the public domain,

:Ddon't forget to support YOUR local air ambulance! :D